Fox: Is he number one?

[EthereaL]

Who should have the number-one spot on the tier list? Fox, or Falco?

There were several pages of argument in the 2010 Tier List thread, and I wanted to expand/focus the conversation.

At a first glance, it seems obvious that it's Fox. He can out-camp the vast majority of the cast. He has nearly perfect shield pressure, a reliable gimp, a slew of kill moves, and incredible mobility.

Yet...

Fox is combod incredibly easily. He is extremely susceptible to crouch-cancelling. His recovery is very easy to gimp...his combos are hard to set up, and are harder to finish. His OP uair...isn't so OP. It can be SDI'd out of from the first hit.

Falco, on the other hand, isn't combod as readily, and his laser stun gives him the best approach in the game. His recovery options, while shorter in length, are harder to cope with than Fox's. DJump>Dair prevents quick gimps and his side B's increased speed over Fox's allows for more mix-ups. While Falco is lacking in a solid gimp, his combos are far more effective than Fox's. In addition, Falco has better match-ups against the other top-tier characters, other than Puff and Marth.

Given the current ruleset and stage choices, should Fox be first?

Discuss.

 

[t3h Icy]

At human levels, Fox is the best, but has less consistency than Falco. Also, there aren't any super Fox mains at the moment that have been going to nationals.

 

[Pi]

i think within human limitation falco is the best

 

[EthereaL]

Why do you think, "at human levels" they are the best, t3h_icy? I'm not speaking in terms of tournament showing. In terms of character advantage (at a human level), how is Fox better?

 

[RaynEX]

For the record: these points are in response to who I believe is better between the two characters, not who is #1 in the game. That debate is better saved for another thread. The following still relates to the OP, though.

Falco > Fox

-The undisputed king of stage control: Can make you feel confined on even the largest of stages. Lasers have the ability to turn any knockdown/dropped combo into a pressure opportunity, regardless of distance. Tech-chase coverage is also monstrous thanks to his laser. Edge-guarding is silly because of how simple it is to snipe opponents below the edge -> dair. Great priority both on and above ground.

-Mobility issues notwithstanding, Falco should never be at the mercy of his opponent's speed. With proper laser usage, he can control the pace of arguably every match-up. Opponent's who steamroll into battle with an overwhelming offense have the potential to derail Falco , but he has many tools to combat this should they somehow avoid his laser game.

-Having a 'bad' recovery is almost negligible, considering his onstage game is so frighteningly effective. It's obviously one of his greatest weaknesses, but its one of only a few.

-Falco's shield pressure is slightly worse than Fox's due to his slower jump, but Falco's shine deals more hitsun/shieldstun, which somewhat balances the speed discrepancy. Successful hits during Falco's shield pressure translate to easily confirmed launches (for more damage) or knockdowns which are applicable across most of his match-up spread. Reward per hit is monstrously tilted in the blue pidgeon's favour.

-Falco can play on all neutrals effectively with few exceptions. At worst he is only ever at a slight disadvantage. To be clear, I do think he loses on certain maps, just not by a large margin. Examples include: Falco v Puff (Dreamland), Falco v Marth (FD), Falco v Sheik (Yoshis)

 

[azianraven]

Fox's combos are pretty easy to set up. Shine leads into pretty much anything. U-smash, U-throw, and utilt all lead into **** combos. Fox's laser forces approaching allowing you to put your opponent in a bad position very easily (either take damage or approach and possibly get punished). Uair owns so hard. I don't care if you can SDI out of it. It leads into combos and ends them.

I think most importantly with Fox, I don't need to guess what my opponent will do but rather react to what he does. You can tech left, right, get up, or get-up attack after I knock you down, but Fox can be in a position where he can cover all the options because of his bewildering speed and insane punishes.

 

[EthereaL]

How do those make Fox better than Falco, Azian?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It doesn't hurt to identify exactly what you mean by "best" since there's a ton of different ways of making that notion precise. I'm not going to say anything else on this topic since it's an issue of essentially no consequence.

 

[weon - X]

reading comments like " Uair owns so hard. I don't care if you can SDI out of it. It leads into combos and ends them. " makes me not want to take this seriously, the possibility of avoiding a killing move like that devalues it by so much to not care about it. wtf....

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with Fly but I'll humor your exercise of probing smashboards as a population by taking part of it.

1. Falco is the best character to yield tournament results with, at least for the time being. This point is observable and hard to debate.

2. I argued for a long time that the best characters are those that best control or eliminate options from the opponent. Falco is amazing at this. However, Falco does have some holes (read: weaker options) that are being exposed more and more over the past few years. At this point, I don't think he'll remain "the best" but I'm also not convinced that Fox will take his place.

edit: "Fox is not Number 1." even though that tier list was my project. Go figure.

 

[gm jack]

Fox has a lot less tricky match ups than falco for one. Fox does far better against sheik, peach and jiggs (at least), while those are all around even for falco.

The one thing falco may have on his side is a slight advantage over fox himself, but fox having an easier time on a fair few match ups easily balances out having a slight disadvantage on falco himself.

That said, the fact you need to discuss which is better, and both sides have legitimate points, means having a tied 1/2 and just not caring that much is far easier with the same result.

 

[Pi]

falco's shine > fox's shine as a whole imo

 

[Kal]

Falco's shine is definitely more versatile, and more practically combos out of successful shield pressure.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I agree with Fly but I'll humor your exercise of probing smashboards as a population by taking part of it.

1. Falco is the best character to yield tournament results with, at least for the time being. This point is observable and hard to debate.

2. I argued for a long time that the best characters are those that best control or eliminate options from the opponent. Falco is amazing at this. However, Falco does have some holes (read: weaker options) that are being exposed more and more over the past few years. At this point, I don't think he'll remain "the best" but I'm also not convinced that Fox will take his place.

edit: "Fox is not Number 1." even though that tier list was my project. Go figure.

I like how you expressed this.

Best is still very arbitrary and it's kinda cool to see that there isn't any definite "best" character even though the game is kinda broken. Realistically though it's probably Falco for now (with respect to tournament results).

 

[EthereaL]

I find it interesting to hear overt hinting at neither Falco nor Fox being the number one character (yes, yes, that's quite an arbitrary tag, but please don't detract from the argument, haha). I had initially posted under the assumption that Falco was the only one who could take his place, and it's interesting to hear a different opinion. I don't agree, mind you, but I think it's interesting.

However, I'd prefer not to use tournament results as an example for character superiority. This can cloud assessment of the character...

Zhu, disregarding tournaments, why do you feel Falco is better?

 

[azianraven]

How do those make Fox better than Falco, Azian?

It's not that they make him better than falco. There were just some weaknesses about fox that you stated that simply aren't true. I personally think that fox and falco are almost even in competition for the top spot.

Also, the reason I say that despite the fact that you can SDI out of uair's second hitbox, you should still use it is because if you have the chance to kill your opponent with it and no other option is prevalent (most common being uthrow to uair), then you should take the option and it's unlikely you will get punished if it is SDI'd.

 

[stelzig]

^In some cases fox can also just only hit with the second hit of his Uair. Good luck SDIing that.
When the Uair is placed properly it doesn't seem nearly as SDIable as otherwise either, though I guess it technically is always SDIable if the first hit actually connects.

I never even noticed that falcos sideB is faster, but I won't question that. I find the hitbox on foxes UpB to help him slightly against off-stage edgeguarding btw, especially when it's paired with the extra distance he can take with it. Like it's alot easier for marth to get around falco and sideB edgeguard him to death if he UpBs close to the stage for instance.

 

[Archangel]

Fox and Falco have kinda been competing for the top spot for years now. It depends on the adaptation of the community as a whole I think. Back when Waveshining was broken and Falco's game was basic Pilaring 101 and just shooting a laser at someone on FD...I'd say Fox was above him. Wants Falco's learned how to pressure into combo then Falco pretty much passed Fox. Although in theory Fox is the best character in the game based on what Is possible Falco is the best based on what is Doable.

 

[EthereaL]

I wasn't discrediting the uair as a good move. I was simply stating a weakness in it.

How much of an advantage, relative to Falco, do you think Fox's ability to recover high gives him?

 

[azianraven]

I wasn't discrediting the uair as a good move. I was simply stating a weakness in it.

How much of an advantage, relative to Falco, do you think Fox's ability to recover high gives him?

I'd say it's minimal. The spacies are not known for versatile and unpredictable recoveries.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'd say it's minimal. The spacies are not known for versatile and unpredictable recoveries.

.................what?

I mean, it's not Peach level or anything ridiculous like that but their recoveries are still way better than most characters'.

 

[Mew2King]

I think falco's better on a human level. The things which push fox above falco aren't really useful on a human level. I'm not saying the tech things can't be done, but within human limitations falco's things are way more useful but a lot easier to do consistently, he has QUITE A BIT more range (very important imo), and laser control of the stage to limit the opponents maneuverability UNLESS they have a controller that allows them to do consistent powershields (and no matter how good you are you will not get them all, but having a good R or L button for this is vital). Fox has better matchups vs Jigglypuff and Peach, but I believe Falco's better vs pretty much all the other characters. People like to say Fox is better cuz it's an old trend to say that and everyone bandwagons on it, and also cuz his jump is 2 frames faster so people say "potentially fox is better" but I heavily disagree. (Not on the theory, but the reality for what humans will ever do and have done for years).

Also, Falco's 0-deaths on various characters are a lot easier to do than Fox's 0-deaths, which is very important at high-level play. Fox has shinespike for gimping, but I honestly think Falco's dair is a lot better for gimping than shinespiking is (well, personally, I get more falco dair gimps than I do fox shinespikes, by quite a lot. You can also combo into it which is instant death (or a really really bad position for the opponent any time you land a dair, which usually leads to a combo or them in a REALLY bad position).

As far as recovery, Falco is slightly worse, but, he is harder to gimp definitely, and riskier to gimp. Reason - if he DIs into the stage, he can randomly Dair back on as a mix up. For Fox's Dair, it will not kill you, but Falco's dair if you jump off it will kill you. 2nd reason - the Illusion is harder to react to if you do it at a smart time. Fox's illusion can always be reacted to even if you do it at an unpredictible time. At least, in my experience it seems that way. With Falco you can randomly recover to a platform with an illusion and just DI into the stage and be fine even if you get hit. Fox can do this too, but Falco is harder to intercept. For example, if I think Fox will do this, I can jump up with marth or sheik and Fair, but with Falco it's simply too hard to time consistently, while Fox is much easier to do (being easier to do is very very important). What I am basicially saying is that his recovery is good. It's a much better recovery than Marth and Sheik and ICs and C.Falcon all have for sure, since he has many more options to get back on. Mixing up a shine-stall makes it even harder. That "weakness" people like to pretend he has is far above average compared to most characters' recoveries.

 

[azianraven]

.................what?

I mean, it's not Peach level or anything ridiculous like that but their recoveries are still way better than most characters'.

I'm not say their recoveries are bad, but rather their recoveries are not what make them so amazing (Although, they are quite good as you said). Versatile recovery, to me, is having a slew of safe options to come back as well as actually being able to actually to reach the edge.

 

[Niko45]

They both have very solid/above average recoveries if not more than that.

Fox vs Falco is basically punish vs control. What do you value more?

I think across all matchups and stages it's really more reliable to have that amazing punish game. Falco has great control but other characters (Peach, Marth, Jiggs to name a few) have great control as well and you can run into problems because you just don't kill efficiently enough. I think Fox's punish game is really reliable and has a ton of upside since there's always the threat of a KO at 0 on any character with one quick good read.

 

[EthereaL]

At m2k...You said that Falco was better against "pretty much all the other characters."

How do you feel about Falco's Marth/Sheik match-up, then, in comparison to Fox? Also, by "dair gimps" do you mean combo'd dairs, or true gimps?

Regarding the punishment v control post...how does Fox have a greater punish game?

And @the guy who says they're not versatile...by that logic, the only "versatile" character recovery is Jigglypuff.

 

[Mew2King]

Falco's way better vs Marth than Fox is (Taj is only exception, but honestly Mango was playing way too cocky and aggressive and dumb [like 3 stocking him on battlefield then going to the edge and F smashing his shield at 0% and recovering stupidly and dying at 0, etc.] and that was the worst PP played that year. Taj is also bad vs fox for some reason, I think that MU is pretty close to even more or less). I think Marth fox is ~ 50/50, but perfect falco shuts marth's options down way harder. It makes dash dance grab much worse, and it also makes Fair/Uair zoning (2nd best thing against fox) a lot worse. His 2 best counters to Fox cannot be used against Falco nearly as good. Marth's weight is also perfect for Falco's combos. I am not just talking out my ***. My falco does a lot better vs cactuar's marth (EVERY marth I played recently actually) than my Fox does, and last no johns, I almost 4 stocked jman's marth on FD w/ my falco, (only to lose next game 2 stock in a falco ditto). I also beat Hbk's marth with my falco on FD the same day (going AGGRESSIVELY cuz I didn't feel like camping) the same day he beat Hax in set and got 3rd to only me and Jman. I guess since I main marth i know how to abuse him, but I feel like a lot of the way Marth has to hit falco relies on the falco either being predictible or messing up (or powershielding which, to do reliably or consistently, REQUIRE a good controller's L or R button).

Fox is easier, it's about even more or less. You can DD grab him easily and beat his approaches with moves like Fair, Uair, and up tilt. Landing one is pretty much fatal.

Sheik loses to both fox and falco by a little bit each. Not too much. I personally have easier time with Fox, but it's also cuz I'm better vs fox than I am vs falco. Not 100% sure on this one.

Me, Hax, and S2J all agree Falco does way better vs falcon than fox does. It's the combos. (also lasers stop dash dance grab; Falcon's best tool. It also stops aerial spacing easily [his 2nd best tool, such as trading nairs with fox or using SH nair backwards to beat fox's approaches and start a tech chase, which is very hard to do vs falco because of lasers limiting his options]).

This is just a guess, but I think Falco does better vs ICs than Fox too. I saw SENSEI beat chu dat in seriouslies at chu dat's house in like 2008 or so by just spiking his recovery FOUR TIMES. That's the main reason. Also it's really hard for ICs to powershield lasers back. I am no expert in that MU though, so I could be wrong on this, but the spiking their recover with an off stage dair is REALLY, REALLY broken in that MU. Falco's Dair spikes are the main reason he just ****s ICs up. Instant Kill (way better than shinespike is in this MU. It's IMMEDIATE KO).

Fox is better vs Peach and Jiggs cuz the main way to kill them is upwards and he can do that well. Also lasers aren't as good as it is in the other MUs, neither is his edge guarding or ability to limit their options (specifically float), so Fox does better here vs these 2 characters. Fox is also better vs pikachu, since Falco's lasers are much worse in this MU.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Fox is easier, it's about even more or less. You can DD grab him easily and beat his approaches with moves like Fair, Uair, and up tilt. Landing one is pretty much fatal.

Doesn't Fox just shoot lasers then and have Marth approach instead?

 

[Zodiac]

Fox is the best in theory, because he is to fast for anyone to keep up, but characters such as falco and sheik are easier to play and get around the same results. and since we have players that can play like theory fox, yes he is top.

 

[Winston]

I think Fox's punish game is really reliable and has a ton of upside since there's always the threat of a KO at 0 on any character with one quick good read.

and also unforced errors on their part?

(I mean being in a shinespikable position in the first place)

I think both punish games are extremely good, but Falco has an easier time hitconfirming into a punish when approaching or pressuring.

Idk who's number 1 though

 

[Mew2King]

marth can get near fox and limit his options, the same way jiggs can get near fox and limit his options, or anyone can get near fox (near the ledge for example, cornered), and limit his options. So it's not that bad at all.

 

[Niko45]

Shinespikes are not a pure unforced error situation. In lots of situations you need to make a choice as you recover against Fox and he can simultaneously make a choice that if correct will lead to a shinespike.

@m2k - I agree that Falco is actually (fairly) significantly harder for Marth than Fox is actually.

 

[Mew2King]

yea it's honestly not even close, at all. Never listen to the falco boards btw. They like to pretend they lose every MU.

but guys in all seriousness, im probably stopping serious smash after apex (like ill still be at tourneys, but im not going to try to get better at all), the MK ban in brawl just made it completely unprofitable to want to keep playing, since the bulk of money i make is in brawl (3 years straight, only using 1 char, for nothing). I don't think ill travel for melee anymore idk, but it's unlikely. I only travel for joint games (Melee and Brawl, and I won't go to mk banned stuff). It's just not really worth the investment anymore. I need to do something else w/ my life now =/

 

[voxzakto]

M2K, if you ever wanna take up gears, hit me up :D voxzakto

 

[JPOBS]

In psychology, there is a theory known as Belief Perseverance. This is the tendency for people to have continual belief in some train of thought, even after the logic or information on which that belief is based, has been thoroughly disproved. What does this have to do with smash? Absolutely everything.

The smash community at large refuses to admit changes in the power structure of this game, and will find any number of excuses to maintain the current structure, even when overwhelming evidence proves we are wrong. It took 2.5 years for us to move jiggs up the tier list after she started to win literally everything between 2007-early 2010. Instead, we insisted that mango was just "too good." Again today, most people wll insist that peach is probably still a relatively weak character (compared to spacies/sheik/puff), and instead, Armada is just "too good." People will tell you that fox still has some ridiculous matchup vs peach like 7-3 or 6-4, except all the foxes are "doing it wrong" or Armada is just "way better than all the current foxs." My point is, people will attribute internal reasons for objective results, instead of considering external factors like (like holy ****, maybe peach is an even matchup with fox? mindblown.) These are just a few examples.

Point being, no matter what the evidence is for Fox not being that good anymore, the fact that we have believed he was the best for the last 7 years, pretty much means that we're going to continue t believe it, no matter how much objective evidence exists to the contrary. Top players will routinely go out and destroy the fox competition, then come back and say "my character still loses to fox"

Personally, I believe falco is currently the best in the game for winning tournaments from a practical standpoint. After him, I believe the next 3-4 characters are so evenly matched that its impossible to really determine the difference.

As a side note, I think fox's combo break opportunities are so stupid. You can drop combo's fpr arbitrary reasons like sdi'ing out of dairs (some characters like samus do this semi-automatically), sdi'ing out of upairs, and ground landing cancelling shine stun. Escaping falco combos are way harder/impossible.

I love melee. 10 years strong and we are still arguing about tiers and matchups.

tl;dr Fox is no longer the best, but we wont ever really change our minds because we're stubborn.

 

[Mew2King]

Yeah it's the same ****ing **** w/ MK in brawl. Cept that community on average is way younger and more immature

 

[Jim Morrison]

I think it's impossible to actually determine a best character, and I think the way the tier list is now, with multiple characters sharing top position, is a fine way of doing things. There's no clearly defined dominating character in Melee as in for example Brawl or Akuma in Street Fighter (not sure which version it was, but he got banned anyway).

I think Peach has proven herself to be worthy of top tier. The problem is though, Jiggs had at least 2 top players who placed very high (Mango and Hbox). In Peach, there is only Armada, and no Peach has come close to that level.
I'd really like to see more Peaches do it, but I can't deny the fact that what Armada does with his character is enough to show that Peach is good.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

but guys in all seriousness, im probably stopping serious smash after apex (like ill still be at tourneys, but im not going to try to get better at all), the MK ban in brawl just made it completely unprofitable to want to keep playing, since the bulk of money i make is in brawl (3 years straight, only using 1 char, for nothing). I don't think ill travel for melee anymore idk, but it's unlikely. I only travel for joint games (Melee and Brawl, and I won't go to mk banned stuff). It's just not really worth the investment anymore. I need to do something else w/ my life now =/

go ahead, no one cares

this is what you have said like hundred times in the past, like after every ****ing international

 

[ShroudedOne]

I guess you proved your point, Jpobs. When you said that Peach might be even with Fox, I automatically did a "No ****ing way" in my head.

I think that Fox and Falco can, for the moment, share the number one spot. We know what Fox can do, but we've seen what Falco has proven to be capable of. Perhaps if the trend keeps up, Peach will break into top tier (I doubt it), and Falco will be the decisive numero uno. *shrug*

 

[EthereaL]

M2K, I understand your salt over the MK ban. I can imagine your anger over it. However, please don't bring that up in this thread, thank you.

How do you all feel about Falco's disadvantage to Fox in terms of mobility?

 

[Bones0]

JPOBS is my hero.

I still stand by my claim the player pool is too small, biased, and distorted to make any concrete conclusions. Such a large percentage of players use the spacies, but I would say spacie representation at the top level is a much lower ratio relative to the overall community. This brings into question whether the number of spacies at the top is a result of a large portion of the community playing them, and perhaps people are better vs. spacies on average than other characters because they have more practice. That, combined with the fact that the game is still evolving just makes me not care about discussions like these. If it's possible for someone (like Mango/Hbox or Armada) to do well in tournament and sway the tier list in their character's favor, it doesn't really seem relevant. If it were up to me I would just wait until the metagame has capped out before determining tiers, not that I see that happening in Melee anytime soon (if ever), but I guess that's my point.