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Fox - Guide and Discussion Thread

The Star King

The Star King

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Han Solo said:
You *can* do X on shield, and your opponent *can* choose not to punish, but that doesn't make X on shield a safe move. Just because in your experience you rarely get punished for using Fox's jab on shield doesn't make jab safe on shield. All that means is whoever you were playing didn't punish you. Jab on shield is a risk. The frame data says that (if I'm reading it right) pika has a 4 frame advantage to do what he wants while Fox is still in hitlag. This is different than moves like frame-perfect shine cancel, second hit uair, bair, and fair where Fox comes out of hitlag before the opponent comes out of hitstun. Those moves are safe on shield. Jab is not.
Click to expand...
Dude I KNOW, Jesus. I know a poorly spaced jab is not safe. That is factual. I'm not saying it is safe. People have shown this and I can read, thanks.

What I AM saying is the fact that it is punishable is irrelevant until one takes advantage of this fact. I don't know how to get this through to you. I am NOT saying it is safe in reality. So stop acting like I am.

Our disagreement isn't about whether it's safe. You said jab on shield sucks. A harsh blanket statement - don't use it, guys. I think, despite there being the potential to punish it, it has its uses. That's where our disagreement is.

I shouldn't have said the safe in practice stuff because it seems to have confused you about my opinion.

mixa nah that's not my old avatar but pretty close. I think I had that one earlier than March of this year anyways. I might've had the Yuyuko + Kirby one at that time.
 
S

SheerMadness

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A properly spaced jab on a shield is almost impossible to punish based on Sangoku's previous research (if it's correct).
 
Han Solo

Han Solo

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Does the jab even hit the character if it's that far away? I know it hits the shield since shield extends a little further, but if it doesn't hit the character, you have better options than jabbing. I believe the risk of getting punished is too high no matter the spacing which is why I say it's bad on shield. Other people disagree.
 
The Star King

The Star King

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Well yeah, Sangoku had the pics showing so. That's really the only way I use jab on shield in the first place. I wouldn't do it all up in somebody's grill.
 
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SheerMadness

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You can space it so that it hits them (not just the shield) and still be safe. Sangoku said there was only a couple moves in the game that could punish a jab on the shield in the 1st place, and you can space so that most of those don't punish you (Fox grab, fox shine, falcon upsmash, etc).

Not sure about Pika's grab, pretty sure you can space yourself out of range but I'm not sure.

Anyway if you're against one of the few chars that can legitimately punish a jab OOS just position your dairs so that you land behind their shield. That's what I do vs Pika. Obviously if you're behind their shield jabbing you're extremely safe.
 
Han Solo

Han Solo

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Yeah, I jab behind shield too. I'm pretty sure Pika can shield-jump uair and hit Fox though. I've been caught by Falcon's upsmash OoS too.

Sangoku, I'm sure you were very thorough, but did you check the spacing on Fox's jab after the hitbox comes out, but before he steps back. His arm hurtbox is just there in the air, and that is when I get punished the most.
 
Sangoku

Sangoku

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You guys have to realize that this is all theory. It really depends on who you're jabbing and stuff.

But here's an example:
This is the farthest Fox can be to jab Falcon (not his shield)


If Falcon usmashes or grab after the hit, Fox won't be touched:


Of course this doesn't prove jabbing a Falcon shield is always good, it also depends on the distance range.

Farthest point to touch Falcon and closest you can touch him without getting usmashed/grabbed:


Now is that range big enough, can you get in it easily enough, that I can't tell. Each of you can determine if jabbing Falcon's shield is good or not, but it's really not that black or white.

Edit: Han Solo posted while I was writing. So to answer you, as I said in my very first post, there is a 4 frames disadvantage for Fox. Which means he has already stepped back on his original position. In other words, the shieldstun is long enough so that Fox gets back (cf the images of falcon's usmash and grab OoS, which were performed as soon as possible after the jab). Even if the jab is stale, there's time for Fox to go back.
 
mixa

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I kinda just found out that Fox has a perfect landing on DL, and really, no one uses it. (I haven't got a a cam installed in your private homes yet, so if you do, sorry)

And by perfect landing I just mean when you jump in a way that when you land, you have no landing lag. The most common example in the U version would be Kirby's slanted C-jump from the ground to DL's sideplat.

Falcon doesn't have one ):

But Fox does! The jp Fox who won the jp online tournament used it a lot. J-SNAKE.

It's from DL's ground to the top platform: jump and double-jump. And the good news is you can't really miss it, in that you'll always reach the top platform, because to do it you have to double-jump on the first frame possible.

The only trick is you can't use the stick to do the double jump; you must use the C button (it doesn't matter for the first jump). The timing is exactly the same timing for the shine-cancel, i.e. if you input jump on frame 1, your double jump should be on frame 4.

If this were useful but uncool I wouldn't make a post about, but it's obviously cool, I mean, when I play (J) Falcon I stick jump all day on DL. (the same happens in PC for the U version; you're welcome)
But it's probably useful: you get to the top platform faster (8 frames faster than the 2nd fastest jump→d-jump) and maybe you can better edgeguard Pikachus when they up-B to the top plat?
 
mixa

mixa

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pff, I'd totally team up with you at Apex 20--

I have no pocket top tiers / luigi, so I hope you do.
 
Sangoku

Sangoku

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If you don't mind losing, I'd be glad to team with you. Probably won't be before apex 2050 or something though.

My main depends on the region where I'm playing. If it's Europe, it would be Yoshi, if it's Japan, maybe Falcon and if it's NA, I'd say Fox. So yeah, only high tiers XDDD
 
The Star King

The Star King

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mixa said:
I kinda just found out that Fox has a perfect landing on DL, and really, no one uses it. (I haven't got a a cam installed in your private homes yet, so if you do, sorry)

And by perfect landing I just mean when you jump in a way that when you land, you have no landing lag. The most common example in the U version would be Kirby's slanted C-jump from the ground to DL's sideplat.

Falcon doesn't have one ):

But Fox does! The jp Fox who won the jp online tournament used it a lot. J-SNAKE.

It's from DL's ground to the top platform: jump and double-jump. And the good news is you can't really miss it, in that you'll always reach the top platform, because to do it you have to double-jump on the first frame possible.

The only trick is you can't use the stick to do the double jump; you must use the C button (it doesn't matter for the first jump). The timing is exactly the same timing for the shine-cancel, i.e. if you input jump on frame 1, your double jump should be on frame 4.

If this were useful but uncool I wouldn't make a post about, but it's obviously cool, I mean, when I play (J) Falcon I stick jump all day on DL. (the same happens in PC for the U version; you're welcome)
But it's probably useful: you get to the top platform faster (8 frames faster than the 2nd fastest jump→d-jump) and maybe you can better edgeguard Pikachus when they up-B to the top plat?
Click to expand...
Yeah Zenyore uploaded a video showing this a few months ago. But it's not there anymore, I guess he took it down? Anyway I definitely need to implement that into my game.
 
rjgbadger

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mixa said:
I kinda just found out that Fox has a perfect landing on DL, and really, no one uses it. (I haven't got a a cam installed in your private homes yet, so if you do, sorry)

And by perfect landing I just mean when you jump in a way that when you land, you have no landing lag. The most common example in the U version would be Kirby's slanted C-jump from the ground to DL's sideplat.

Falcon doesn't have one ):

But Fox does! The jp Fox who won the jp online tournament used it a lot. J-SNAKE.

It's from DL's ground to the top platform: jump and double-jump. And the good news is you can't really miss it, in that you'll always reach the top platform, because to do it you have to double-jump on the first frame possible.

The only trick is you can't use the stick to do the double jump; you must use the C button (it doesn't matter for the first jump). The timing is exactly the same timing for the shine-cancel, i.e. if you input jump on frame 1, your double jump should be on frame 4.

If this were useful but uncool I wouldn't make a post about, but it's obviously cool, I mean, when I play (J) Falcon I stick jump all day on DL. (the same happens in PC for the U version; you're welcome)
But it's probably useful: you get to the top platform faster (8 frames faster than the 2nd fastest jump→d-jump) and maybe you can better edgeguard Pikachus when they up-B to the top plat?
Click to expand...
i remember watching a japan fox(it was probably the same Jsnake player) doing this thing where he double jumped and uaired so he would land perfectly on the platform. Seemed super useful; really glad i know know about this trick, as well as the uair one(which is the same jump timing i assume?)
 
The Star King

The Star King

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Uair doesn't affect the jump, you can do any aerial. It's just the very technique mixa is describing.
 
R3v

R3v

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Hey guys, ive been practicing smash a bit lately and have been trying to get good enough to enter the competitive scene. I am trying to make fox one of my main characters and ive noticed that essential move of his is running upsmash, but it is the one thing i cant do consistently at all. Im not sure if it is my controller, but do any of you have any tips so that I can be more consistent with a running usmash rather than doing my dash attack or accidentally jumping with the stick and doing a uair? I have been most consistent doing it with the R button and moving my joy stick from the side up and then pressing R, but i still cant get it 100% no matter how much i practice, any advice?
 
rpotts

rpotts

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Hit A or R just barely after smashing the stick up. If you up air you hit A/R too late. If you dash attack you didn't smash up fast enough.
 
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Pygmy

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Tips for movement practice with fox?

Edit: thought i was on the fox discussion for some reason
 
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stylisland

stylisland

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Pygmy said:
Tips for movement practice with fox?

Edit: thought i was on the fox discussion for some reason
Click to expand...

First, I would suggest learning general movement, like pivoting, fast fall aerials, and shield drop aerials. Then go to dreamland or any preferred stage and see the maximum distance you can run off the stage fast fall then jump and Bair onto the stage without having to use your up B. then learn how far you can go out and make it back with an up B and how many aerials you can throw out while off the stage and safely make it back. Other than that I would just suggest watching some of the different fox's on youtube and watching how they move, when they fast fall, and things like that and try to practice that. Oh, and you can practice landing on a platform earlier with a shine cancel, using a shine cancel has a pseudo pivot/brake when in full run, and how to teleport. Reverse back airs are good to practice as well
 
Sedda

Sedda

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I'd say practice SIMPLE combos in practice mode, too. You'll learn about using combos with people who can DI later on, but combos made me feel more comfortable about my movement. Obviously also play with people and have fun. NICE NAME BTW, DARK SOULS FTW
 
mixa

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Han Solo said:
same as above except for one and two ftilts
  • same as above except for one and two dtilts
  • hey might as well throw utilt in there
  • I'd also like to see the above done against falcon's upsmash out of shield and DK's up-b out of shield
  • Doing a shorthop dair against a yoshi doing a parry upsmash (parry the first hit)
  • Doing a shorthop dair into a grab against a pika attempting to shield grab. I'm convinced pika will be able to shield-grab every time.
Click to expand...
I think these haven't been covered, so here it is. I'll keep this short but you can ask for details or clarifications.


DK's Up-b OoS comes out in 4 frames
Falcon's U-smash OoS comes out in 5 frames.
All fast grabs (exclude Link, Samus, and Yoshi) come out in 6 frames.


Fox's attacks on shield

D-tilt: no frame advantage
U-tilt: 1 frame adv.
Dair: 1–3 frame adv.

You just gotta see how long it takes for your next move to come out compared to the opponent's.
Example:
Doing a shorthop dair into a grab against a pika attempting to shield grab. I'm convinced pika will be able to shield-grab every time.
Click to expand...
In TAS world Fox'd always win, since both grabs come out at the same time and Fox has a 1 through 3 frame adv.

Yoshi's parry to Upsmash seems too complicated to test. Too many variables for me. I'd say it's safe if you land in front of him.



More on Dair for the nerds

Here's how his Dair and probably all drills work:



hit -- hit -- empty -- hit -- hit -- empty ...

However, when you hit a shield with Dair, Fox will be 2 frames without the hitbox out.
So the frame advantage (1, 2, or 3 frames) depends on how close to the ground your last hit of the drill connects.


Here Fox's next three frames will be:
1 - empty
2 - empty
3 - landing, giving him a 1 frame adv.


And here Fox's next frame will be landing already, giving him a 3 frame adv.






edit: Oh, and I found this fun thing at DL the other day: https://mediacru.sh/xbmT9g9zaypR
You run off the platform and immediatelly fast fall. Since it's an edge cancel, you'll have no landing lag or aerial lag.
The frame window for the left side is more leninent (more suited for non-kb players), which also means if you're too fast, you'll need to Z-cancel.
 
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rjgbadger

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mixa said:
edit: Oh, and I found this fun thing at DL the other day: https://mediacru.sh/xbmT9g9zaypR
You run off the platform and immediatelly fast fall. Since it's an edge cancel, you'll have no landing lag or aerial lag.
The frame window for the left side is more leninent (more suited for non-kb players), which also means if you're too fast, you'll need to Z-cancel.
Click to expand...
I do this somewhat frequently but facing the other direction. shield drop>bair>edge cancel>fast fall grab edge
 
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eMeFDee

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Could someone enlighten me regarding the different possible heights of Fox's SHL/SHDL (including C- and Stick-jumping variations with/without slant). Frame data for the inputs would be a plus.
 
AtotheZ

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Does anyone have vids of foxes making winning by making fairly safe plays?

I always feel DANGEROUS when I main this beast
 
Sedda

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obvious use would be to reflect projectiles, and also to avoid getting grabbed because your jab might not come out as quickly
 
WINK ;)

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mixa said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAv8iFposjk&t=1m14s FERNANDO uses it pretty well, I think.

There's also shine stalling.

It's easy to end up shining more than you need, so don't get to ansty to hit a shine in a match.
Click to expand...
I play Falco in Melee so I love the shine ;) But I know in 64 it is nowhere near as practical. But yeah I do shine stalling but I was curious if there was combo usage or anything but thanks for the link! Ill watch it now.

Alright great! I have a better understanding of when to shine.
 
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