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Fox - Guide and Discussion Thread

th3kuzinator

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3,620
Location
Winning
Table of Contents
1. Important Terms
2.
Fox McCloud, an Overview

3. Moveset Analysis
4. Matchup Discussion
5. Advanced Section
6. Acknowledgments

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1. Important Terms:
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These terms will be commonly referred to throughout the guide, so make sure you get them down before continuing.

Aerial - An A move done in the air

  • Nair - Neutral Aerial
  • Bair - Back Aerial
  • Dair - Down Aerial
  • Fair - Forward Aerial
  • Uair - Up Aerial
Tilt - A light press in one direction and the A button

  • Dtilt - Down Tilt
  • Utilt - Up Tilt
  • Ftilt - Forward Tilt
Smash - A hard press in one direction and the A button (at the same time)

  • Dsmash - Down Smash
  • Usmash - Up Smash
  • Fsmash - Forward Smash
Throw - Press the R button (or Z --> A) near an opponent

  • Fthrow - Forward Throw
  • Bthrow - Back Throw
Standard Advanced Techniques

  • SH: Short Hop - Tap the cbutton lightly to produce a smaller hop
  • FH: Full Hop - Regular jump
  • FF: Fast Fall - Pressing down while in a falling animation to speed up your decent
  • Zcancel - Press the z button 20 frames before hitting the ground while performing an aerial to cancel all lag
  • Tech - Press the z button 20 frames before hitting the ground from a fall to instantly get up (hold a direction to roll as well)
  • CC: Crouch Cancel - Crouching significantly reduces knockback dealt to your character.
  • DI: Directional Influence - See this thread
Miscellaneous

  • Hit Stun - the amount of frames an attack 'stuns' the character which inhibits him from moving in this time. If you hit someone again while they are already in hitstun, this is considered a legitimate combo.
  • Shield Stun - the same concept of hit stun. The amount of frames an attack 'stuns' a shield while inhibits the opponent from dropping their shield/rolling/jumping. If a special combination of attacks (specific to each character) are enacted on a shield while it is stunned, you will be able to pull off a legitimate shield break combo (you cannot DI while being struck in your shield).
  • Box/(****)Tent/Isai's House - The green tent like structure on the right side of hyrule.
  • SHL: Short Hop Lazer - What the name implies
  • SHDL: Short Hop Double Lazer - What the name implies
  • Shine/Reflector - Fox's Downb Special
  • Teleport -> Explained in the advanced section
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2. Fox McCloud, an Overview
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Fox is a starting fighter in the game Super Smash Bros. where he ranks 2nd on the tier list (only ousted by pikachu). Fox is a speedy, weak character, meaning his attacks tend to have less knockback than other character's; however, this gives him excellent comboing abilities.

Fox is certainly speed based and possesses some impressive stats.

  • 2nd fastest dash speed
  • fastest initial dash speed
  • the third fastest falling speed
  • a fast roll
  • quick smash and aerial start-up times.
Comboing fox is slightly different from comboing other fast fallers. Because fox fits into the fast fallers category, he is commonly referred to as a "heavy" character. However, his actual weight is the same as mario's and luigi's which means that hits will send him farther than other fast fallers. Because of this, fox is not as easily combod as the other fast fallers, but can usually be killed at lower percents. However, because fox is a fast faller, he can still be juggled fairly easily (despite him not being a technical "heavy").

Fox Attributes:

  • + Great projectile
  • + Great combo ability
  • + Quick aerial & ground move start-up times
  • + Disjointed aerial hitboxes
  • + Fast running speed
  • + Powerful Smash attacks
  • + Grab can combo well in certain areas (box)
  • +/- Fastfaller
  • - Recovery has long startup time and mediocre priority
  • - Easily juggled
  • - Grab is quite weak and has a frustrating hitbox
Fox has quite the potential to be a patient and frustrating foe. His unique projectile, incredible speed, disjointed aerials, powerful smashes, and set knockback gimp-machine "shine" really help to make fox a powerful character.

One second a good Fox could be camping you with lazers and defensive aerials, while the next he could be pressuring you with his shine and low risk approaches. Not to mention, once thrown off the stage and you are just a shine spike away from death (pikachu not included).

To get good with fox, you need to mix up these 3 play styles in a way that best confuses and disorients your opponent.

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3. Moveset Analysis
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B-Moves
Neutral B (Lazers)

  • http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4931/foxb.gif
  • Description: Fox pulls out a gun, leans back, and fires a pink lazer
  • Damage (regular, stale): 6%, 5%
  • Comments: An indispensable tool in Fox's arsenal. The lazer's stun is significant enough to combo into things if hit when close enough. Cannot be blocked by physical attacks (except Ness's reflecting bat).
    • Important notes about the laser - if you land when firing a laser, the lag is canceled. This has led to the SHL and the SHDL. When used in tandem, the result is a barrage of lasers that can make it very difficult for the opponent to approach. Usually a mix of SHDL and SHL is used, as the first shot of the SHDL is too high to high to hit many characters (though it can catch jumping enemies). An opponent hit by a close-up SHL or SHDL can usually be grabbed and thrown, Usmashed, and jabbed while stunned.
Down B (Shine/Reflector)

  • http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/576/foxdownb.png
  • Description: Fox stands with his arms by his cheeks while two blue hexagons pulse around him
  • Damage (When Reflects a Projectile, When Used on Top of an Opponent): 1.5x damage multiplier (does not stale), 5%
  • Comments: Reflects projectiles that deal 1.5x damage if hit. Also hits opponents when close enough for 5 damage. The move has set knockback, which means it has potential to gimp even at 0%. This set knockback depends on each character's specific attributes (the main factor being their weight).
    • For example, the shine only moves DK a short distance, while it pushes Jigglypuff across the entire stage.
Up B (Fire Fox)

  • http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/9679/foxupb.gif
  • Description: Fox hovers in place for around 45 frames then shoots off in the direction of your choosing.
  • Damage (regular, stale): 16%, 12%
  • Comments: Fox's recovery move. Slow charge-up time which leaves Fox vulnerable. Even when in the moving phase, the priority is still pretty mediocre. Fox's most notable weakness.
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Miscellaneous Ground Moves
Jab (Neutral A) Part I

  • Description: Fox leans forward and jabs once
  • Damage (regular, stale): 4%, 3%
  • Comments: Pops the enemy into the air, very good setup for throws and Usmashes. Very quick startup time and thus it is often used in between aerials to interrupt shieldgrabs. Because of its fast startup and retraction time, the jab can be used to pressure shielding characters into a roll, which can often lead to a free grab if you chase in the right direction. Can also be combined with dash pivoting to apply further pressure against a shielding opponent.
Jab (Neutral A) Part II

  • Description: Fox leans forward and jabs with the other hand
  • Damage (regular, stale): 4%, 3%
  • Comments: Similar use as the jab, Part I. The second jab can come slightly delayed after Part I or immediately. A fast Part II is often used when the opponent needs to be popped up a bit more to allow time for a Usmash or grab.
Jab (Neutral A) Part III

  • Description: Fox stands on his back foot and does a flutter kick
  • Damage: 5 hits, 1% each
  • Comments: Not as useful as the jabs but can be used against cornered opponents if they are caught against a wall. If you continue tapping A, this flurry can be continued indefinitely. Only a wise decision if opponent is trapped against a wall, or they are shielding.
Dash Attack

  • Description: Fox slides forward on his back leg and does a low angled kick with his other leg.
  • Damage (regular, stale, weak, stale&weak): 10%, 8%, 7%, 6%
  • Comments: Stays out surprisingly long and comes out fast, so it works well as an edgeguarding tool. Seems to work better than an Fair against sweetspotters because the attacking foot has a lower hitbox during the dash attack. Although a good surprise move, this should rarely be used away from the ledge due to its sub-par priority and low hitbox (aerials easily dodge the hitbox).
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Tilts
Utilt

  • http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3262/foxutilt.gif
  • Description: Fox stands on his back leg and kicks straight up
  • Damage (regular, stale): 9%, 7%
  • Comments: Extremely important in Fox's combo toolbox. Juggles heavier characters and links with Dair for easy combos against people who don't DI or don't DI well. Does not do too well against shields, as this move has very little shieldstun.
Dtilt

  • http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7300/foxdtilt.gif
  • Description: Fox kneels down and sweeps his tail in front of him along the ground
  • Damage (regular, stale): 12%, 9%
  • Comments: Slightly more versatile than Utilt, but is slightly less useful in comboing because of its higher knockback. Acts as a combo starter at lower percents when Utilt is too weak to pop opposing characters in the air. When hit by the tip of the tail, opponent pops straight up, but when hit by the middle, opponent goes forward at about a 60 degree angle. Because of its low disjointed hitbox, it can be used as an edgeguarding tool vs. sweetspotters. At higher percents can also act as a killing move against lighter opponents. Does slightly better against shields than Utilt because the move has a better shieldstun as well as range.
Ftilt

  • Description: Fox stands on his back leg and kick forward
  • Damage (normal regular, normal stale, high regular, high stale, low regular, low stale): 9%, 7%, 11%, 9%, 8%, 6%
  • Comments: The least useful of Fox's tilts. Works as a decent edgeguard when the opponent is at higher percents and you're in need of a fast move. There is little use for this move at lower percents however, as it can leave Fox quite open. Not as versatile as the jab. The ftilt can be angled low and high, high having more knockback, while low having small set knockback. Ftilt can act as a sort of psuedo jab when your opponent is not expecting it, but should not be used too frequently, as it can be easily punished.
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Smashes
Usmash

  • Description: Fox quickly thrusts his foot upward and does a full 360% flip before landing on both feet once again
  • Damage (regular, stale): 16%, 12%
  • Comments: Fox's main combo finisher. Very good knockback and the move comes out near instantaneously. Since Usmash can be pulled out when running, a random Usmash against an opponent with high percent can be an effective finisher, but be aware of the move's large ending lag. Also has weak hitboxes after the initial kick (8% regular, 6% stale). Usmash OOS works really well when opponent does not have good shield pressure or messed up.
Dsmash

  • Description: Fox does a split and kicks out in both directions
  • Damage (regular, stale): 14%, 11%
  • Comments: Dsmash is a vital edgeguarding move because of its low horizontal trajectory, which makes it perfect when used near the edge. Since the hitbox extends i both directions, players often face away from the ledge when Dsmashing so they can easily shorthop into edgehog/further edgeguarding.
Fsmash

  • Description: Fox thrusts both his feet in front of him leaps forward
  • Damage (regular, stale): 17%, 13%
  • Comments: The main use of fsmash is an edgeguarding tool because of its decent knockback, hitbox duration, and priority. It can go toe to toe with most aerials and exchange hits, usually leading to the recoverer's doom. Although it can be combod out of a dair and jabs on heavier characters, the times where this comes in handy are few and far between (compared to just using an usmash). This dash pivots very nicely and can usually catch a ledgehopping enemy off guard.
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Aerials
Nair

  • Description: Fox bends his hind leg and thrusts out his other one in some sort of ninja pose.
  • Damage (regular, stale, weak regular, weak stale): 14%, 11%, 9%, 7%
  • Comments: A sex kick. Probably the least useful of fox's aerials (although they are all fairly close). The knockback and duration makes it more difficult to combo with than bair and fair. It some situations, a weak nair can combo into an usmash (usually with the assistance of a ledge). However, a regular nair has the most horizontal knockback of all fox's aerials than thus can usually be used to finish fair and bair chains.
Fair

  • Description: Fox pick both feet up and does a 720 degree barrel roll midair.
  • Damage (regular, stale, weak regular, weak stale): 12%, 9%, 8%, 6%
  • Comments: Like his Nair and Bair, this Fair is also a sex kick which has its pros and cons. The move has very good range in front of Fox and has a decent duration which enable it to be used for defensive and offensive spacing. Besides spacing, Fair chains with itself and combos into both Dair and UpSmash at certain percents. A lot of Fox spacing involves shorthop Fairs and Bairs to keep the opponent at bay.
Bair

  • http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2281/foxbair.gif
  • Description: Fox sticks out his back foot and does a split in midair.
  • Damage (regular, stale, weak regular, weak stale): 12%, 9%, 8%, 6%
  • Comments: Like his Fair, Fox's Bair is a sex kick and an important tool for spacing and comboing. During this move, Fox's legs produce a hitbox that stretches the entire length of his body (bigger/stronger in back). Much of what was said about Fair applies to Bair. What separates the two is Bair's significantly longer duration, making it an excellent edgeguarding tool. Fox can jump off the stage backwards and tap the opponent while jumping back to reclaim the ledge. Because Bair doesn't turn him around, Fox can easily grab the ledge again after a ledgehopped Bair. The hitbox is also significantly more disjointed than the fair which makes it a great defensive move as well. Following a utilt or bair/fair chain, Bair can also function like a fair due to the weak hitbox on Fox's front leg. This weak hitbox can be just the right tool to segway into an usmash at higher percents. Although not as common, dair can be used to techchase due to fox's incredible speed.
Dair

  • Description: Fox spins around and does a drill kick that hits 7 times
  • Damage: 7 hits @ 2 damage each
  • Comments: With Dtilt and Utilt, Dair stacks up damage and combos quite nicely. However, try to cut too much Dair out of your game if your opponent had good DI, as you will just be punished for it. Dair also functions as a decent edgeguard, as it pushes characters quite a ways downwards and has a good hitbox (this is less reliable and usually used to annoy/toy with your opponent if they have a bad recovery).
Uair

  • Description: Fox flips upside down and double kicks upward
  • Damage (first hit (regular, stale)): 2%, 1%
  • Damage (second hit (regular, stale)): 13%, 10%
  • Comments: Fox's Uair is his main juggling move against heavy and fastfalling opponents. The first kick of the uair is weak, but has set knockback. If zcanceled before the second hit can connect, you can juggle heavies with this move untill 999% (if your opponent has no DI). You can do this same technique by FHing a uair (so that fox's character model is above his opponent before the second hit can connect) and then uairing again during your decent (just before you hit the ground). Besides this method, a cancelled first hit of the uair can lead into an usmash or utilt to continue combos. The main, and significantly stronger, kick of the Uair makes for a very good juggling tool. If started at low percents, this can be connected quite a few times to rack up loads of damage (cannot usually finish with this method unless you use the platforms on hyrule to take to the skies). The knockback on Uair is also good enough to kill at decent percents against floaties after a utilt at moderate percents.
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Throws

Fthrow

  • Description: Fox grabs the opponent to his chest, then leans forward and throws
  • Damage (regular, stale): 12%, 9%
  • Comments: A pretty bad throw in general. The damage is small, the knockback is mediocre and the grab hitbox is has a terrible range directly in front of fox. Can be useful in some tent situation (which will be explained in the advanced section), but overall a pretty bad Fthrow compared to other character's.
Bthrow

  • Description: Fox grabs the opponent to his chest, then flips around backwards while tossing the opponent with his momentum.
  • Damage (regular, stale):15%, 12%
  • Comments: Although most of the stats are better than the Fthrow, this is still a pretty mediocre grab. Like the Fthrow, useful in some tent situations (which will be covered later) but overall a pretty bad Bthrow compared to other character's. If you are looking for a more powerful throw, choose the Bthrow over the Fthrow.
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4. Matchup Discussion
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To Be Discussed Later
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5. Advanced Section
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In this section I will try to share all my tips and tricks in depth as I come across them. I will probably be updating this section frequently with info I think of/am reminded of by playing & swf contributions. There will inevitably be some topics I am less familiar with (shine jabs as a combo starter) so all helpful comments from the community will be updated into the guide (with the correct accreditation of course).

I hope to expand this section greatly and create the best fox guide out there, but this will take a lot of work. Please be patient and enjoy the guide thus far!
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Teleport - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdggE9_qbiI

What it is: simply a glitch. Even TASers do not fully understand why this happens and it simply can not be explained with any previous logic we have learned from the game. I read somewhere that the teleport lasts as long as the character's Pre-Jump animation.

How to do it:
1. Be in a full run (not initial dash) with either jiggs fox or samus.
2. Mash the control stick in the opposite direction as you are running
3. Jump 3 frames later.

The close you get to 3 frames, the more drastic the teleport looks. jumping on frames 2 and 4 get a smaller teleport.

You can either
(A) cancel the teleport with a usmash

(B) Cancel the teleport with UPB, which is a terrible idea with fox.

(C) Just use the boosted jump and do an aerial.
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Shield Breaks

1. Continuous Jump Canceled Shines until Break
2. 2 running sh uairs (the second hit must be on the shield) > 4 shines > usmash
3. A few shine jabs > shines > usmash

Basically, since fox's aerials are fairly weak, fox's shield break options are fairly limited.
Anything that pokes at the opponent shield (jab, dtilt, uair) that can be chained into shine finishers or an usmash will work.

Unless your opponent holds down their shield too long, if you can not multishine you cannot break their shields.

This makes fox shield breaks a highly advanced technique
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Fox in the **** Tent

Fox has a HUGE amount of options for comboing the **** in tent and he is probably the most versatile character in said tent.

In general fox combos can be continued longer on heavies, and most zero 2 death combos can be done on characters of medium weight (pika, ness, yoshi). Combos on heavy characters can be finished once started after around 30% and combos on light characters can be started at low percents, but often are hard to finish

Lets start with his throws.
-As with most characters, fox's backthrow is stronger than his forwardthrow. Always Keep that in mind when starting/continuing combos.
-One of the most simple combos that can be done on medium/heavies is just linking bthrows and fthrows which then finish into a uair/usmash.
-This works most effectively on heavy or medium weighted characters.


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6. Acknowledgments
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Saving this section for all those who will contribute to the guide in the future.

For now, I would like to thank Wenbobular for his previous fox guide which really helped me get this one going.

I would also like to thank Fireblaster for the hitbox gifs

Thanks to cheeseball for the first round of corrections.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
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Messages
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Oh god fox.

I hate fox. >=/

I do like some ideas for your thread so i do believe i will be "borrowing" some and put them on my mario discussion thread.

If there is something that i could add this fox thread it's that when you are playing as fox you should use lasers like a mad man and if someone approachs you then punish them with either a dair,fair,bair.
then continue to **** him with either following up with utilt, and other fair, etc.

theres ALOT of ways to start combos with fox, not that many with mario sadly. =/
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
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Actually Fox is very limited in starting from 0-death...most would start with Uair or a basic areal to push them into Dtilt...which we all know generally can be escaped ...and the Drill is very escapable too.

To be good with fox you need to master chaining all your aerials...Fair, Bair, and Nair to finish

the less you use Drills the better your fox is getting :p (assuming you still are able to combo obviously...)
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
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You should link Wenbobular's thread.

My random fox tips:

laser. a lot.

Be wary of using fox's aerials at super low percents against heavies. They don't have enough hitstun to start a combo, and many times they can attack you back and combo you.

Fox's jab comes out fast, has good hitstun, a nice knockback that sets up for grab or usmash or another jab. It's really good for interrupting grabs, and it clanks with a lot of annoying moves like pikachu's utilt but recovers faster. Be wary at super low percents though.

Fox combo tips - fox has a few staple combos. Utilts/dtilt -> uair x 10 and fair/bair/nair chains more effective against floaties). Master these and be able to transition between them. Combo finishers are usmash, fsmash, nair, and non stale uairs. Don't be afraid to use drills here and there, depending on your opponent's DI.

Fox in the hyrule tent - obviously grab works really well. Jabs -> grab makes for slightly easier timing at mid percents and higher. Ftilt into the tent can be a good set up too, especially against the floatier characters that you can't just chain throw.

Even if you mess up you can often get them again. Being under the tent makes it really easy to get hit by lasers and regrabbed.
 

th3kuzinator

Smash Master
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Thx ballin.

I feel like i use dair a bit too much for my combos but I am just so used to them.

What should I use mostly for fox's approach? I am pretty sure bairs have a bigger hitbox than fair, but can I get a priority check on that from someone?

Also besides the obvious concept of fair and bair chains, can someone explain the concept further. Say, after a utilt, should i just go fair>fair>usmash or something. Or should you mix up the arials like utilt>nair>fair>reverse bair>usmash.
 

Surri-Sama

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ALWAYS do whats easiest if the result is the same

dont over complicate your combos or you'll find your self making more mistakes then you should be
 

L1ON

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 7, 2010
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About SHDL --- So I can SHDL just fine and all... except when moving forward...

I can't get a second laser if I'm moving horizontally through the air... My short hop becomes and even shorter hop... Is it still possible to do? Do I just need to practice doing it faster? Or is it futile?

I think I'm just referring to if you're running ---> short hop --- laser laser. I'm not sure about standing and then just moving forward a little bit through the lasers.. idk.. Help?
 

DemonicInfluence

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
512
About SHDL --- So I can SHDL just fine and all... except when moving forward...

I can't get a second laser if I'm moving horizontally through the air... My short hop becomes and even shorter hop... Is it still possible to do? Do I just need to practice doing it faster? Or is it futile?

I think I'm just referring to if you're running ---> short hop --- laser laser. I'm not sure about standing and then just moving forward a little bit through the lasers.. idk.. Help?
I just tested this in 1/2 speed. Its doable. But it requried a bit of effort even at 1/2 speed =/
 

th3kuzinator

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAKBYMM2iyY

thats the only way i know how to move with DLSHs

as for running while doing it...i doubt it :p but maybe o.o
Tambor tested this awhile back.

TO CLEAR THIS UP: you can do a running shdl. It has to be almost frame perfect (within 2-3 frames or so). Ballin4life can do it 50% of the time on console I think, or thats what I remember him saying awhile back. But that just takes enormous skill.
 

Surri-Sama

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low single lasers is catching on like wild fire on The Galaxy...i seen 1 guy do it...and he was like "its my trademark move" then like 3/5 foxs i face use the same thing :p


It's more annoying then effective though imo...once you get used to it it's ok :p
 

ballin4life

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About SHDL --- So I can SHDL just fine and all... except when moving forward...

I can't get a second laser if I'm moving horizontally through the air... My short hop becomes and even shorter hop... Is it still possible to do? Do I just need to practice doing it faster? Or is it futile?

I think I'm just referring to if you're running ---> short hop --- laser laser. I'm not sure about standing and then just moving forward a little bit through the lasers.. idk.. Help?
You just have to slide from left c to b so that the first laser comes out as soon as possible. I can do it ok as long as I'm using a good controller. Overall though, I wouldn't trust it in a match (the 50% number I threw out there was from training mode). I'd just low single laser in a match.

Thx ballin.

I feel like i use dair a bit too much for my combos but I am just so used to them.

What should I use mostly for fox's approach? I am pretty sure bairs have a bigger hitbox than fair, but can I get a priority check on that from someone?

Also besides the obvious concept of fair and bair chains, can someone explain the concept further. Say, after a utilt, should i just go fair>fair>usmash or something. Or should you mix up the arials like utilt>nair>fair>reverse bair>usmash.
Approach with lasers, fairs and sometimes dairs.

Just fair chains are easiest. Get used to using weak fair vs strong fair.

At about 60-70% fair will combo into usmash kill vs pika/kirby.

Low lasers are really good to practice, both standing and running short hop low lasers. One great way to counter an approach is to dash back, low laser the approach, then dash forward and combo them.

I've learned a lot, especially about using lasers, from playing Sheer's fox (even though it was just a few matches) and s2j's fox.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
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I recommend using the C full jump during a dash, it makes the jump go in between SH and Full Jump and makes SHDL much easier. What you can also do is move forward then jump (use teleport to cancel your momentum more easily) then SHDL, which makes it way easier and allows you to move while SHDL'ing nonetheless.

As for the Fair/Bair combos, I like to add in a few weak Nairs, it really helps the whole thing in my opinion.
 

Surri-Sama

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it keeps things more interesting for sure...and with diminishing attacks (omg knot brawl talk!) it might be a LITTLE better to mix in Nairs...but i say stick with what ever you feel more comfortable with
 

Mahie

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it keeps things more interesting for sure...and with diminishing attacks (omg knot brawl talk!) it might be a LITTLE better to mix in Nairs...but i say stick with what ever you feel more comfortable with
I think learning as many things as possible has more benefits, once you master the stuff people better than you do, you can go ahead and create your own style, and that means you'll get much more entertained by the character. You can create your style on your own but it takes more time.
 

Surri-Sama

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deffinitly, but you dont wanna make a style that looks flashy and feels "cool" to play...if you are trying to play competitively and your 999% combo isnt working any more :p

there is so much DI online that the "effectiveness" of combos alters greatly...because of this i try to find the best combos the work vs all...people like A$ & PD give me hell because they seem to get out of even the most basic combos (Uair chains with falcon...wut?)

In time you'll find them, and use them to your needs, thus your style comes up...and you define your self as a smash64 pro! (Eventually)


This is all GENERALLY speaking...not directly to you Mahie
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
deffinitly, but you dont wanna make a style that looks flashy and feels "cool" to play...if you are trying to play competitively and your 999% combo isnt working any more :p

there is so much DI online that the "effectiveness" of combos alters greatly...because of this i try to find the best combos the work vs all...people like A$ & PD give me hell because they seem to get out of even the most basic combos (Uair chains with falcon...wut?)

In time you'll find them, and use them to your needs, thus your style comes up...and you define your self as a smash64 pro! (Eventually)
There's nothing wrong with being flashy as long are you're winning games imo ;)

I wouldn't play Smash in general if it wasn't for the flashy creative aspect, so I'll stick to that even if it costs me games and what not...
 

Surri-Sama

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
5,454
Location
Newfoundland, Canada!
Exactly, and i respect your right to do that and hope you enjoy the game as much as i do (not sarcastic at all)

Personally i hate losing (not enough to rage but enough to make me want to get better) so i try to use that as my motivation towards learning the most "basic" of the "bread and butter" combos of smash64


People may not like this but...maybe in time people will also respect everyones enjoyment in this game (as long as it doesn't infer with other people of course :o)
 

hamburglar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
435
Location
Binghamton, Ny
is it possible to shine-jab every character? i can do it against falcon link and pikachu pretty easily but kirby gives me trouble
 

hamburglar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
435
Location
Binghamton, Ny
cool, guess i have to practice more.

ballin, off the top of your head, what would be some proper percents for shine-jabbing different characters?
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
Well, high enough that it will actually combo (so more than like 30%). Also you need to be a bit higher if you want to continue the combo afterwords.

What really matters is that the character is the right height. Fast falling characters need to be higher to ensure that they don't hit the ground from the shine.

Quick guesses for when jab - shine - jab will work (ie the first jab will pop them high enough):

pika/kirby/jiggs/samus - 50ish

falcon/fox/dk - 120

yoshi - 100

mario/luigi/ness - 70
 

th3kuzinator

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3,620
Location
Winning
sorry about the guide status.
I am currently very busy with school.
I am going to update the OP with all the stuff that should be added from myself and things posted by you guys this friday.

The reason this is taking so long is that I am trying to record some videos and get some frame data/hitbox diagrams for some of my demonstrations.

thx for the patience and for contributing so far
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
cool, guess i have to practice more.

ballin, off the top of your head, what would be some proper percents for shine-jabbing different characters?
I just checked in training mode and at 0%, on the ground I could shine jab everyone except DK, Link, Falcon, Yoshi, and Fox. Those all hit the ground (they have to be popped up in the air to shine jab them).
 

rpotts

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
1,121
Location
Lawrence, KS
Yes^^ because of this my favorite 3 hit combo is now first hit uair -> shine -> jab on fast fallers. Since the first two hits are constant knockback it works at all damages.

Just in case people don't know about certain combos

first hit uair links to usmash/fsmash against fast fallers. I feel ******** doing it though. so free.

first hit uair -> SHDL on fast fallers

at 0% uair(both hits) -> utilt x2 -> dtilt to start combos on fast fallers

jab -> dash pivot jab x∞ around 60% on floaties, 80 on middleweights, 100+ on fast fallers

backthrow -> standing full hop nair (land on mid platform) -> usmash in rapetent at 75-110% on most of the cast

weak bair/fair links well into jab at mid percents

(weak) fair/bair -> dropzone shine is deadly and sets up for really easy edgeguards

it's possible to combo dair->dair->dair etc

a short hop dair doesn't need to be z canceled if it comes out quick enough. It ends just before fox returns to the ground.

i think high angles ftilt can combo into dtilt at low damages, pretty cool.
 

rpotts

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
1,121
Location
Lawrence, KS
At super low percents the shine jab won't combo into anything else though.
Oh of course, I know. It simply a benchmark for me. going from not being able to shine jab, to being able to relatively consistently. I'm pretty addicted to it. Tech skill heavy fox combos are very cool imo, and its possible to incorporate into matches (though probably not the best option, in terms of trying to win)
 
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