So the obvious threats from Marth are his f-air and d-tilt. His secret threats are jab and grab. F-smash is overrated but still potent, and his n-air is typically underrused but still . Forward+b is very good for him, but only if *you* don't see it coming, otherwise you can freely CC it into many flavors of pain. So let's break it down the way I try to break down everything...
This ENTIRE first post is about fighting his f-air. Then I have to go take some dayquil and study for my midterm. I made some of this post silly because it's more fun that way.
I'm sorry this got so long and drawn out and rambly and whatever... I hope it entertains, if nothing else, because it sure as hell isn't organized. It might not even be intelligible. At the end is a HIGHLY condensed version that isn't nearly as weird or insane.
Marth: F-air isn't fair.
There are a few ways to beat a move:
1) Use a different move that outranges it, and time it well.
2) Get the opponent to miss and punish the whiff
3) Get the opponent to stop using it.
Let's get one thing straight before we begin: you aren't going to beat Marth's f-air with option 1. You can't. If you're going to get around it in any way, it's by making the Marth player use it poorly, and that's a purely mental exercise.
It's also tough talking about the mental game because it's kind of mystical and hard to dissect; frames are concrete, psychology isn't. But we all KNOW that we can be pressured into making bad choices, we all get nervous, we all get distracted or scared or make bad decisions, and even though it happens from within, it can be influenced from outside. I get flak from some people for trying to rationally analyze the seemingly irrational, or from overthinking things, but I'm *not* a naturally intuitive person and it's just how I roll. So I want to look at how we can actually invade the opponent's mind, since literally speaking Marth's f-air can stop the ICs completely with no hope. Let's get psychological!
Oh, and last thing: if the Marth isn't very good, you may as well skip to the very end because the middle part doesn't apply. I've got the neat, condensed trick for beating bad Marths that spam f-air. Read the next paragraph, then go to the BONUS FEATURE.
A trick my friend Bluezaft from Dallas came up with to help me better "see" Marth's playstyle is called the "Marth Circle." Imagine a circle around Marth where his sword reaches--instead of looking at Marth, look at the circle. This is where he can swing his sword and hit you with f-air, b-air, d-air, or u-air. Instead of just looking at his character model, you want to look at the circle and focus on not getting hit by his stupid swipey blade. It's not a PERFECT circle obviously, but it's a really good start and helpful visual image. You mostly want to envision the Marth Circle when he's in the air, since on the ground it varies when he's grabbing and DD'ing and wavedashing and stuff.
It's also probably a little bigger than you actually think it is.
Anyhow, the weakest point of that circle is beneath him because:
---d-air is laggy and risky when not guaranteed
---f-air hits there last and has its least range beneath him
---n-air covers it poorly
---b-air covers it poorly
And since we want to deal with f-air, we want to find a way to get underneath him. When he's SHFFL'ing f-air repeatedly, this is INSANELY DIFFICULT. But we must.
The tool most of us want to use is dash attack, and that's a pretty good one to work with because it links into u-air (no CC'ing in mid-air unless you're Peach). It also has that little push that gives it a deceptive range, and it reaches surprisingly high above the ICs: this means that you get decent range in the place that Marth is weakest in his circle. This is very good for us.
The downside is the ICs dash is not very good and they're kind of easy to hit. If the Marth retreats with f-air, you probably won't get in on it because of his decent air speed and range. How can one implement dash attack?
First off, the closer you are when he whiffs an f-air, the better. It has 23 frames of lag (active 4-7 with IASA on 30) which means you could theoretically WD into f-smash or dash-attack. What makes this difficult is we're discussing a retreating f-air, so you need to move really fast at the right moment and push in deep. For best results, you need to be doing this BEFORE the hitboxes are over. Which means he has to whiff even worse and you have to KNOW he will. This either means you're psychic (not all of us are) or he's really bad, or a little bit of both.
If he's advancing, you DON'T have to wavedash in because he'll close the gap for you, making dash-attack easier to land. If he's f-airing in place, then that's still tricky, but doable. If he's retreating, it's a *****. In fact, I'd argue that if he spaces well at all, it should be nearly impossible.
TIME FOR A TANGENT, SKIP IF YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED.
But one of the nice things about the ICs is that they are (forgive my language) ****ing terrifying. I've heard it said from numerous people that the ICs should not even be in this game; their design is flawed, they punish way too hard for small mistakes... people don't like it when I play ICs in friendlies. They get up and leave or they complain. This has happened to other IC friends of mine too. Maybe it's just desensitization to other characters combined with lack of experience with them, but people are scared of ICs. A friend of mine said 65% of the reason he quit Melee was the ICs.
I bring that up because it means just by being there with Nana, alive and well, you are putting pressure on the enemy. You zip across the level, grab, and murder them. Yes, they can keep you out, but for how long? There's a lot of pressure on them before you've even attacked. If you're CC'ing, playing defensive, it can take a longass time to get rid of just one stock, and theirs can be over from a single opening (if you do it right). Either that or they eat 60 percent from a 3 hit combo, or they DI a "random" smash badly and die at 40 percent. This puts a lot of pressure on them.
This will come up again and again when fighting Marth because he's a character about spacing and precision, and the way you ruin precision is with pressure. The ICs are good at creating pressure, but only if you're patient. If you play like a stupid beast desperate for the punish, then you will run into his sword again and again. At the risk of sounding over-dramatic and very, very stupid, I mean it when I say that you need to be a cunning and patient hunter. Literally? Think like an ******. Seriously. Do it.
Eskimos are fishers and hunters. They are patient; they bait, and lure, and push the prey into a corner they can't escape from, and end it there. A hunter slowly guides its prey into a tight spot until it retaliates with a blind, stupid, gut instinctual response, then the hunter KILLS THE ******* FOR BEING A STUPID, PREDICTABLE ANIMAL.
So you have to play like a hunter; constrict, baiting that one opportunity to make them eat mallet.
END SILLINESS.
So how does that translate? You need to somehow push deep into Marth's territory because that's where you shine and he becomes scared. Even if he isn't ACTUALLY punishable at that moment, he's still going to flinch because he knows what happens if you get the opening. Even a dash attack into u-air is a big deal; that's about 40 percent if Nana's with you, and if she isn't you may still get a second u-air for around 25-30 depending on DR.
This is where wavedashing out of shield becomes your friend. If the Marth f-airs your shield while rising and retreating, you can wavedash in and bring the shield up again, relatively safe from punishment. Maybe he'll f-air again, but if you do a good wavedash you'll be VERY deep in his territory. If he's retreating, he may even be running out of stage to retreat with. So he can f-air again, but what if you're really deep and it lets you shield grab? Should he jump away instead of f-airing again? That could let you get under him and u-air. D-tilt? It's shield grabbable if you're in close. Maybe he'll grab? If you dodge you could punish him for that. Dash dance away and forward+b? CC into grab or d-smash is a ***** and a very good trade for you. He may just roll away or dodge, but you can wavedash from shield or just wait for the dodge to end. If he spaces badly (from his next f-air or tilt) or you call his next move, you can gain a clearcut advantage and start doing damage.
We're assuming he WON'T space badly because otherwise we shouldn't be having difficult, so this is where you start having to guess a little and outsmart him, but at least we've made some progress from being purely shut out. He's still got a lot of good options to choose from, but at this point in the exchange. and now the Marth is scared. It sounds silly to assert this on a forum, but you *know* he's scared. After all, we're talking about Mango Juice and Genesis where wobbling is legal and he can't afford to get grabbed :D If he isn't at least a little scared, he doesn't know anything about the ICs.
A lot of people I've faced say they are literally scared because, when playing, they just want me to go away, so this is the weapon we're using. It sucks because this is only the first step. We're still in theory town because we don't have a concrete way of beating that f-air. We know that you can get under a high f-air with dash-attack, and that if he advances it means it's easier to punish the whiff. If he retreats, however, the only way to get an opening is to pressure him into giving you one.
Time for another tangent:
Falcon players love rolling away from people because his roll is good and it's one of his best escape options at close range. When I know a Falcon will roll away, however, all I have to do is wavedash after it and grab him, ending his stock.
Why does the Falcon roll? He wants to get away. Why can I wavedash out of shield when it should be very unsafe for me to do so? Because I know he'll roll.
If you d-throw d-air a Fox, the best way for him to escape is by smash DI'ing away and down, then rolling or dodging. I played a Fox who got away from me like this, so the next time I grabbed him, I did d-throw d-air then wavedashed forwards. He rolled with me and landed right in front of me; I grabbed him again. This time we were near the edge. D-throw and he DI'ed in because he panicked and didn't want to die, letting me grab again for free. Nana caught up, and I used a handoff to finish. Every part of that link was based on his instinctual desire to escape or survive, and it was used against him. This even happens with very good players, because they're all human. It happens a lot against ICs because people REALLY want to stay away from them. Keep that in mind.
End tangent.
Back to the f-air. Let the rising f-air hit your shield, then wavedash in as quickly as possible and bring up your shield again. This is where the guessing games start and the pressure truly begins. You want him to believe that you are going to keep pushing in and this will make him do a few things:
1) He'll land and try another move. This means you're not fighting his f-air anymore, which is good.
2) He'll keep trying to f-air you. This increases the likelihood that he will use it badly because he wants to swat you away, and that means he's going to stop paying attention to YOU and more to his own panic. This means he may use it while pushing forward (trying to be aggressive) or he'll use it while too high up (trying to be evasive under pressure).
Initially, this won't do you much good because you're stuck in your shield and can't maneuver. This is why beating good f-air usage requires patience. I recommend, initially, wavedashing in from your shield, then retreating by rolling or wavedashing back. This creates pressure by pushing in, but keeps you from getting hit by his follow up. It also keeps you away from a guessing game where you might get tilted or forward+b'd or grabbed, and it makes the Marth impatient because whatever else happens, he really wants to hit you. This gives you time to watch him more and get a better feel for his style and move preference.
EXAMPLE:
You and Marth are moving around, getting a feel for each other's position, and you dash in with your shield up. Marth throws out a rising and retreating SHF-air; you're both in the middle of FD. You wavedash after him from your shield and bring it up again, and he lands f-airing your shield a second time; as he lands, you roll away and he whiffs a d-tilt. The situation resets, and you're both more or less still in the middle of FD.
What do you see from that? The Marth wants to maintain aggression using a second f-air and a d-tilt to cover his tracks. He doesn't use the passive rolling, he doesn't dash dance away to bait and land a grab or forward+b, and he doesn't jump away to be evasive. Because nothing bad happened to him, if the situation repeats he'll probably do the same thing; this means you could wavedash in and keep your shield up for the f-air and tilt, possibly getting a shield grab. You might also use a smaller wavedash to bait the second f-air (let it whiff) then approach with an SHF-air of your own, going over the d-tilt and slamming him into the ground. With patience and a bit of watching, you can set up a situation to study them then bail, only to recreate the situation and go in a little less blind.
If he's the type to dash dance away and grab or forward+b, you can prepare yourself to dodge or CC; if he rises, get ready to wavedash in with u-air or dash-attack his landing. If he rolls, be ready to wavedash from your shield and get a grab. Watch and wait.
What I just spent an hour saying is that you will never punish a good f-air; you have to make him use a bad one and you have to be aware it's coming. So like I said, this isn't fair and it isn't easy and you have to use a stupid ****** hunting analogy to see where I'm coming from.
BONUS FEATURE: BEATING A MARTH THAT SPAMS F-AIR UNINTELLIGENTLY.
--Try to stay outside the Marth circle.
--Wait patiently for him to use an advancing f-air.
--Dash attack him, or run in and shield while he lands so you can grab him.
--Hurt him.
--Repeat until you win.
SHORT VERSION OF THE REST OF THE ABOVE POST:
--You can't "beat" Marth's f-air when he's using it properly.
--When he does it badly, you can punish whiffs with several moves, mainly dash-attack.
--The way to make him f-air badly is to constrict him and force him to start throwing out moves that push you away.
--By pushing in heavily, you can also force guessing games where you get very high rewards for guessing right; you also get him to stop f-airing.
--Forcing him to act by WD'ing in from your shield gives you insight into his habits.
Closing note:
I feel like an idiot posting stuff like this because it makes me sound like I'm some kind of monster or psychic or god or whatever when we know I'm not. It's also really... out there, to be honest. It's not very concrete or probably even useful but... jeez, I don't have much of an excuse. I'm posting it now because I spent forever writing the **** thing. If you hate it just... post sad faces and I'll stop.
This ENTIRE first post is about fighting his f-air. Then I have to go take some dayquil and study for my midterm. I made some of this post silly because it's more fun that way.
I'm sorry this got so long and drawn out and rambly and whatever... I hope it entertains, if nothing else, because it sure as hell isn't organized. It might not even be intelligible. At the end is a HIGHLY condensed version that isn't nearly as weird or insane.
Marth: F-air isn't fair.
There are a few ways to beat a move:
1) Use a different move that outranges it, and time it well.
2) Get the opponent to miss and punish the whiff
3) Get the opponent to stop using it.
Let's get one thing straight before we begin: you aren't going to beat Marth's f-air with option 1. You can't. If you're going to get around it in any way, it's by making the Marth player use it poorly, and that's a purely mental exercise.
It's also tough talking about the mental game because it's kind of mystical and hard to dissect; frames are concrete, psychology isn't. But we all KNOW that we can be pressured into making bad choices, we all get nervous, we all get distracted or scared or make bad decisions, and even though it happens from within, it can be influenced from outside. I get flak from some people for trying to rationally analyze the seemingly irrational, or from overthinking things, but I'm *not* a naturally intuitive person and it's just how I roll. So I want to look at how we can actually invade the opponent's mind, since literally speaking Marth's f-air can stop the ICs completely with no hope. Let's get psychological!
Oh, and last thing: if the Marth isn't very good, you may as well skip to the very end because the middle part doesn't apply. I've got the neat, condensed trick for beating bad Marths that spam f-air. Read the next paragraph, then go to the BONUS FEATURE.
A trick my friend Bluezaft from Dallas came up with to help me better "see" Marth's playstyle is called the "Marth Circle." Imagine a circle around Marth where his sword reaches--instead of looking at Marth, look at the circle. This is where he can swing his sword and hit you with f-air, b-air, d-air, or u-air. Instead of just looking at his character model, you want to look at the circle and focus on not getting hit by his stupid swipey blade. It's not a PERFECT circle obviously, but it's a really good start and helpful visual image. You mostly want to envision the Marth Circle when he's in the air, since on the ground it varies when he's grabbing and DD'ing and wavedashing and stuff.
It's also probably a little bigger than you actually think it is.
Anyhow, the weakest point of that circle is beneath him because:
---d-air is laggy and risky when not guaranteed
---f-air hits there last and has its least range beneath him
---n-air covers it poorly
---b-air covers it poorly
And since we want to deal with f-air, we want to find a way to get underneath him. When he's SHFFL'ing f-air repeatedly, this is INSANELY DIFFICULT. But we must.
The tool most of us want to use is dash attack, and that's a pretty good one to work with because it links into u-air (no CC'ing in mid-air unless you're Peach). It also has that little push that gives it a deceptive range, and it reaches surprisingly high above the ICs: this means that you get decent range in the place that Marth is weakest in his circle. This is very good for us.
The downside is the ICs dash is not very good and they're kind of easy to hit. If the Marth retreats with f-air, you probably won't get in on it because of his decent air speed and range. How can one implement dash attack?
First off, the closer you are when he whiffs an f-air, the better. It has 23 frames of lag (active 4-7 with IASA on 30) which means you could theoretically WD into f-smash or dash-attack. What makes this difficult is we're discussing a retreating f-air, so you need to move really fast at the right moment and push in deep. For best results, you need to be doing this BEFORE the hitboxes are over. Which means he has to whiff even worse and you have to KNOW he will. This either means you're psychic (not all of us are) or he's really bad, or a little bit of both.
If he's advancing, you DON'T have to wavedash in because he'll close the gap for you, making dash-attack easier to land. If he's f-airing in place, then that's still tricky, but doable. If he's retreating, it's a *****. In fact, I'd argue that if he spaces well at all, it should be nearly impossible.
TIME FOR A TANGENT, SKIP IF YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED.
But one of the nice things about the ICs is that they are (forgive my language) ****ing terrifying. I've heard it said from numerous people that the ICs should not even be in this game; their design is flawed, they punish way too hard for small mistakes... people don't like it when I play ICs in friendlies. They get up and leave or they complain. This has happened to other IC friends of mine too. Maybe it's just desensitization to other characters combined with lack of experience with them, but people are scared of ICs. A friend of mine said 65% of the reason he quit Melee was the ICs.
I bring that up because it means just by being there with Nana, alive and well, you are putting pressure on the enemy. You zip across the level, grab, and murder them. Yes, they can keep you out, but for how long? There's a lot of pressure on them before you've even attacked. If you're CC'ing, playing defensive, it can take a longass time to get rid of just one stock, and theirs can be over from a single opening (if you do it right). Either that or they eat 60 percent from a 3 hit combo, or they DI a "random" smash badly and die at 40 percent. This puts a lot of pressure on them.
This will come up again and again when fighting Marth because he's a character about spacing and precision, and the way you ruin precision is with pressure. The ICs are good at creating pressure, but only if you're patient. If you play like a stupid beast desperate for the punish, then you will run into his sword again and again. At the risk of sounding over-dramatic and very, very stupid, I mean it when I say that you need to be a cunning and patient hunter. Literally? Think like an ******. Seriously. Do it.
Eskimos are fishers and hunters. They are patient; they bait, and lure, and push the prey into a corner they can't escape from, and end it there. A hunter slowly guides its prey into a tight spot until it retaliates with a blind, stupid, gut instinctual response, then the hunter KILLS THE ******* FOR BEING A STUPID, PREDICTABLE ANIMAL.
So you have to play like a hunter; constrict, baiting that one opportunity to make them eat mallet.
END SILLINESS.
So how does that translate? You need to somehow push deep into Marth's territory because that's where you shine and he becomes scared. Even if he isn't ACTUALLY punishable at that moment, he's still going to flinch because he knows what happens if you get the opening. Even a dash attack into u-air is a big deal; that's about 40 percent if Nana's with you, and if she isn't you may still get a second u-air for around 25-30 depending on DR.
This is where wavedashing out of shield becomes your friend. If the Marth f-airs your shield while rising and retreating, you can wavedash in and bring the shield up again, relatively safe from punishment. Maybe he'll f-air again, but if you do a good wavedash you'll be VERY deep in his territory. If he's retreating, he may even be running out of stage to retreat with. So he can f-air again, but what if you're really deep and it lets you shield grab? Should he jump away instead of f-airing again? That could let you get under him and u-air. D-tilt? It's shield grabbable if you're in close. Maybe he'll grab? If you dodge you could punish him for that. Dash dance away and forward+b? CC into grab or d-smash is a ***** and a very good trade for you. He may just roll away or dodge, but you can wavedash from shield or just wait for the dodge to end. If he spaces badly (from his next f-air or tilt) or you call his next move, you can gain a clearcut advantage and start doing damage.
We're assuming he WON'T space badly because otherwise we shouldn't be having difficult, so this is where you start having to guess a little and outsmart him, but at least we've made some progress from being purely shut out. He's still got a lot of good options to choose from, but at this point in the exchange. and now the Marth is scared. It sounds silly to assert this on a forum, but you *know* he's scared. After all, we're talking about Mango Juice and Genesis where wobbling is legal and he can't afford to get grabbed :D If he isn't at least a little scared, he doesn't know anything about the ICs.
A lot of people I've faced say they are literally scared because, when playing, they just want me to go away, so this is the weapon we're using. It sucks because this is only the first step. We're still in theory town because we don't have a concrete way of beating that f-air. We know that you can get under a high f-air with dash-attack, and that if he advances it means it's easier to punish the whiff. If he retreats, however, the only way to get an opening is to pressure him into giving you one.
Time for another tangent:
Falcon players love rolling away from people because his roll is good and it's one of his best escape options at close range. When I know a Falcon will roll away, however, all I have to do is wavedash after it and grab him, ending his stock.
Why does the Falcon roll? He wants to get away. Why can I wavedash out of shield when it should be very unsafe for me to do so? Because I know he'll roll.
If you d-throw d-air a Fox, the best way for him to escape is by smash DI'ing away and down, then rolling or dodging. I played a Fox who got away from me like this, so the next time I grabbed him, I did d-throw d-air then wavedashed forwards. He rolled with me and landed right in front of me; I grabbed him again. This time we were near the edge. D-throw and he DI'ed in because he panicked and didn't want to die, letting me grab again for free. Nana caught up, and I used a handoff to finish. Every part of that link was based on his instinctual desire to escape or survive, and it was used against him. This even happens with very good players, because they're all human. It happens a lot against ICs because people REALLY want to stay away from them. Keep that in mind.
End tangent.
Back to the f-air. Let the rising f-air hit your shield, then wavedash in as quickly as possible and bring up your shield again. This is where the guessing games start and the pressure truly begins. You want him to believe that you are going to keep pushing in and this will make him do a few things:
1) He'll land and try another move. This means you're not fighting his f-air anymore, which is good.
2) He'll keep trying to f-air you. This increases the likelihood that he will use it badly because he wants to swat you away, and that means he's going to stop paying attention to YOU and more to his own panic. This means he may use it while pushing forward (trying to be aggressive) or he'll use it while too high up (trying to be evasive under pressure).
Initially, this won't do you much good because you're stuck in your shield and can't maneuver. This is why beating good f-air usage requires patience. I recommend, initially, wavedashing in from your shield, then retreating by rolling or wavedashing back. This creates pressure by pushing in, but keeps you from getting hit by his follow up. It also keeps you away from a guessing game where you might get tilted or forward+b'd or grabbed, and it makes the Marth impatient because whatever else happens, he really wants to hit you. This gives you time to watch him more and get a better feel for his style and move preference.
EXAMPLE:
You and Marth are moving around, getting a feel for each other's position, and you dash in with your shield up. Marth throws out a rising and retreating SHF-air; you're both in the middle of FD. You wavedash after him from your shield and bring it up again, and he lands f-airing your shield a second time; as he lands, you roll away and he whiffs a d-tilt. The situation resets, and you're both more or less still in the middle of FD.
What do you see from that? The Marth wants to maintain aggression using a second f-air and a d-tilt to cover his tracks. He doesn't use the passive rolling, he doesn't dash dance away to bait and land a grab or forward+b, and he doesn't jump away to be evasive. Because nothing bad happened to him, if the situation repeats he'll probably do the same thing; this means you could wavedash in and keep your shield up for the f-air and tilt, possibly getting a shield grab. You might also use a smaller wavedash to bait the second f-air (let it whiff) then approach with an SHF-air of your own, going over the d-tilt and slamming him into the ground. With patience and a bit of watching, you can set up a situation to study them then bail, only to recreate the situation and go in a little less blind.
If he's the type to dash dance away and grab or forward+b, you can prepare yourself to dodge or CC; if he rises, get ready to wavedash in with u-air or dash-attack his landing. If he rolls, be ready to wavedash from your shield and get a grab. Watch and wait.
What I just spent an hour saying is that you will never punish a good f-air; you have to make him use a bad one and you have to be aware it's coming. So like I said, this isn't fair and it isn't easy and you have to use a stupid ****** hunting analogy to see where I'm coming from.
BONUS FEATURE: BEATING A MARTH THAT SPAMS F-AIR UNINTELLIGENTLY.
--Try to stay outside the Marth circle.
--Wait patiently for him to use an advancing f-air.
--Dash attack him, or run in and shield while he lands so you can grab him.
--Hurt him.
--Repeat until you win.
SHORT VERSION OF THE REST OF THE ABOVE POST:
--You can't "beat" Marth's f-air when he's using it properly.
--When he does it badly, you can punish whiffs with several moves, mainly dash-attack.
--The way to make him f-air badly is to constrict him and force him to start throwing out moves that push you away.
--By pushing in heavily, you can also force guessing games where you get very high rewards for guessing right; you also get him to stop f-airing.
--Forcing him to act by WD'ing in from your shield gives you insight into his habits.
Closing note:
I feel like an idiot posting stuff like this because it makes me sound like I'm some kind of monster or psychic or god or whatever when we know I'm not. It's also really... out there, to be honest. It's not very concrete or probably even useful but... jeez, I don't have much of an excuse. I'm posting it now because I spent forever writing the **** thing. If you hate it just... post sad faces and I'll stop.
good stuff wobbles
