EVO legalized Customs, so lets talk about them.

[kesterstudios]

i like it. it is the best list. solidsense made solid sense with his list. I think we're done here finally

 

[A2ZOMG]

Works for me. In the future though I believe Super Jump might prove important against DK at least, but for now we have enough.

 

[popsofctown]

It's hard to say I like the list when my favorite set is excluded :/ But I'm the guy that shows up and uploads his own junk anyway, so my opinion kind of matters less.
I'd rather see 2232 over 2233.

 

[NairWizard]

It's hard to say I like the list when my favorite set is excluded :/ But I'm the guy that shows up and uploads his own junk anyway, so my opinion kind of matters less.
I'd rather see 2232 over 2233.

What is your favorite set?

 

[popsofctown]

2232, I wasn't changing subjects during the post, sorry that wasn't clear.

 

[NairWizard]

Oh, I see.

Well, I am completely in favor of adding more Scalding FLUDD sets, so if no one has any objections I wouldn't mind swapping 2233 for 2232.

Scalding FLUDD is legitimately Mario's best move, and I wouldn't go without it in my own tournament sets.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd be in favor for 2232. I don't think HP FLUDD is that good.

 

[kesterstudios]

as long as we have 1312 and 1313, I don't care

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

@ popsofctown Swapped 2233 out for 2232 since honestly I like it better anyways.

The synergy between 2233 and 2232 are slightly different but both are good. For 2233, you are able to push opponents near the ledge and limit their options, setting up for favorable situations where you can net a Shocking Cape or EJP hit. For 2232, you can also push opponents near the ledge, but you also rack up more damage at the cost of losing a gimping option.

ALTHOUGH I would favor 2232 anyways, because Scalding FLUDD is a great tool to have in neutral. And in particular it shuts down aerial options and approaches. And it has good synergy with both Shocking Cape and EJP, bringing opponents even closer to the KO range.


I think we all pretty much agree that Scalding FLUDD, in most circumstances, is way too good to pass up.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Also guys, we can go ahead and post these sets if most people are in agreement about them.

Seems as though @DunnoBro would like them for Xanadu on the 17th.

Mario

1212
1213
1312
1313
1332
2212
2213
2232
2312
2332

This is what we have decided on so far, DunnoBro.

 

[HeroMystic]

Holy ****ing ****.

SCALDING FLUDD IS ****ING AMAZING!

This custom makes Sonic a BREEZE to fight against!

Good god, this is definitely Mario's best custom. Never pick Mario without this.

 

[M@v]

I still feel high pressure fludd is great too, but yeah, scalding fludd is the goto vs sonic and other characters that are hard to gimp with the cape + fludd combo. Scalding shuts down spindash which is a big deal vs sonic.

 

[NairWizard]

Holy ****ing ****.

SCALDING FLUDD IS ****ING AMAZING!

This custom makes Sonic a BREEZE to fight against!

Good god, this is definitely Mario's best custom. Never pick Mario without this.

You're a little late to the party, HM, but welcome aboard the SS Scalding FLUDD.

It is literally Mario's ticket to Top Tier, in my opinion. I can't think of a single matchup where I wouldn't use it, even against Ness or Mii Gunner (with Ness' absorb down-b).

It is the anti-Luma, the anti-heavy, the anti-guys-who-are-hard-to-set-up-for-KOs, the anti-Luigi, the anti-Megaman... Scalding FLUDD is to Mario as Super Speed is to Palutena (except Super Speed is better, of course).

 

[HeroMystic]

I used it against Ness. It's definitely better against him on-stage because it shuts down a lot of his approaches. You can't spam it due to Down-B, but Mario's neutrals are definitely strong enough that he doesn't have to rely on it the entire match.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

And now people understand why I have been hyping this move.


It is literally a chargeable flamethrower that has ACTUAL knockback. No other character in the game has access to something quite like this. And the fact that it patches so many of Mario's previous weaknesses, range/damage/disjoint/etc, is just incredible to think about. It makes him an entirely different beast of a character to deal with.

Quite literally, it puts the "Super" back in Super Mario.


Also, I am going to go ahead and post the new sets in @Amazing Ampharos's topic since discussion seems to have died down for the most part, most people are happy with SolidSense's list, and how it is almost the 17th now. So unless anyone has any final words before the sets are, er, finalized...I believe we are mostly finished here.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Also important with scalding fludd vs. Ness. Because he has a hard time making it back to the stage without throwing out a move (fair, for instance), scalding fludd is essentially better at gimping him than normal fludd.

It's very risky for a Ness to simply doublejump to the ledge because of the ledge of their doublejump, and attempting to recover solely with up-b unless absolutely necessary is also something they're often not willing to do because it's so easily gimped. Ness is forced to rely on his disjointed moves to cover him as he gets on the stage, prior to scalding fludd our answers to this were strong, but somewhat difficult. (Spacing cape is really hard vs. Fair, otherwise you could back air or shield and Upsmash, neither of which guaranteed a kill). But scalding cape does practically guarantee a kill. It puts him offstage in a position where he can literally do nothing but up-b, and it's simple enough to cape it/use the windbox on your cape to disrupt him to the point where he just dies. It's really good versus the character.

This is likely good vs. anybody you're expecting to try to come up and hit you with an aerial instead of grabbing the ledge, but especially potent vs. Ness. Don't try it on Yoshi though, his double jump super armors through it. But he's practically always been forced to do a 50/50 because of your cape anyway.

 

[NairWizard]

Nice work everyone!

The only thing missing from Scalding FLUDD is good damage. I wish it did like 2-3% more, since you can't always get the full hit.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Nice work everyone!

The only thing missing from Scalding FLUDD is good damage. I wish it did like 2-3% more.

Yeah, the damage is indeed good and does help Mario's damage output, but it is still on the low side.

Honestly if it was a bit more consistent on getting all of the hits in, 9% damage isn't too bad. But most of the time it isn't going to get all of the hits.

But hey, every little bit counts. Even if the move only did 1% damage, it would still be an amazing tool to shut down approaches and to cover airdodges/spotdodges. And to give Mario a disjointed attack with knockback that is very potent at knocking characters out of the sky.

 

[NairWizard]

Best part is that it can start combos or serve as a followup when none of your other aerials will reach. It's pretty boss.

But scalding cape does

Scalding cape? Is that like Shocking Cape but with the hitbox of FLUDD? Because I want that.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Best part is that it can start combos or serve as a followup when none of your other aerials will reach. It's pretty boss.

You can even link it into Up B at a ton of percents

Scalding FLUDD -> Super Jump Punch = 21% damage if you get all the hits in :D

 

[HeroMystic]

Scalding FLUDD to grab makes my heart flutter every time I do it.

 

[kesterstudios]

solidsense saves the day! I like the sets we have.

 

[BSP]

Holy ****ing ****.

SCALDING FLUDD IS ****ING AMAZING!

This custom makes Sonic a BREEZE to fight against!

Good god, this is definitely Mario's best custom. Never pick Mario without this.

I'm still going to try to pull all I can out of HPFLUDD, but it's good to hear that scalding is effective.

 

[HeroMystic]

Guys, I totally didn't notice this before, but is there a reason why 2313 isn't on the list?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Guys, I totally didn't notice this before, but is there a reason why 2313 isn't on the list?

Simply because we didn't have enough room for it, and how default Fireballs synergize better with a set that features two gimping options.

1313 is for matchups against Ness, Little Mac, Link, DeDeDe, and characters that are easy to gimp. Default Fireball is more useful to remove their jumps while they try to recover low, while HP FLUDD/Gust Cape are for pushing opponents off of the stage or if they are above the stage during their recovery animation (or sometimes below if you are quick enough).

Is there something you would replace to make room for it? Thankfully there's about 5-6 more days before the sets are truly finalized.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not really, it's just odd for me to see 1312, 1313, and 2312, but not 2313 to finalize what I would consider the "default" sets for Mario, since there are players that largely prefer Fast Fireball over Fireball.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Not really, it's just odd for me to see 1312, 1313, and 2312, but not 2313 to finalize what I would consider the "default" sets for Mario, since there are players that largely prefer Fast Fireball over Fireball.

Hmm, makes sense.

If it were me, I would either replace 1213 or 2213, but not both. Though then there comes the issue of which one of those would be better to replace.

Because as interesting as those sets are in regards to having HP FLUDD and KO option on the same set, having both might be a bit too much. Much like how having two gimping options might be a bit too much if recoveries across the board are going to be better thanks to customs.

idk. It's a tough call honestly. Too much thinking for too little data and results. It might just be better to wait until after EVO and see what people's opinions are. Maybe make a poll and see what sets people prefer the most, so we can tell which sets could potentially be replaced in the future?


Damn, this problem could've been avoided if Smash gave characters just a little bit more sets to work with. Like 12 :/

It's hard for me to make choices knowing that said choices could potentially make other people disheartened/sad, or when those said choices are still good enough to be there with the rest but aren't simply because there isn't enough room. It is a real bummer and it bugs me. Sadly it can't be avoided.

 

[HeroMystic]

idk. It's a tough call honestly. Too much thinking for too little data and results. It might just be better to wait until after EVO and see what people's opinions are. Maybe make a poll and see what sets people prefer the most, so we can tell which sets could potentially be replaced in the future?


Damn, this problem could've been avoided if Smash gave characters just a little bit more sets to work with. Like 12 :/

It's hard for me to make choices knowing that said choices could potentially make other people disheartened/sad, or when those said choices are still good enough to be there with the rest but aren't simply because there isn't enough room. It is a real bummer and it bugs me. Sadly it can't be avoided.

At this point in time, it's all player preference with the exception that Scalding FLUDD and SJP are Mario's best specials. So I can't fault you for finding this difficult. It's unfortunate the deadline is so close and we can't reel in more data for Fireball vs Fast Fireball.

All I can really say is, personally, there have been moments where the only thing I would change on Mario is a switch from Fireball to Fast Fireball, because there are times where I literally do not have the safety to shoot more than one Fireball, and this mostly happens against Falcon, Fox, ZSS, and Pikachu. Scalding FLUDD picks up the slack obviously, but if I don't have the ability to shoot fireballs then there's no real point to them.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

At this point in time, it's all player preference with the exception that Scalding FLUDD and SJP are Mario's best specials. So I can't fault you for finding this difficult. It's unfortunate the deadline is so close and we can't reel in more data for Fireball vs Fast Fireball.

All I can really say is, personally, there have been moments where the only thing I would change on Mario is a switch from Fireball to Fast Fireball, because there are times where I literally do not have the safety to shoot more than one Fireball, and this mostly happens against Falcon, Fox, ZSS, and Pikachu. Scalding FLUDD picks up the slack obviously, but if I don't have the ability to shoot fireballs then there's no real point to them.

Yeah. You've summed it up pretty well. It's mostly just player preference now.

Overall I find default Fireballs more effective against slower and easier to gimp opponents, and Fast Fireballs for extremely mobile opponents or opponents that like to stay in the air. I think that is probably the biggest deciding factor on which Fireball to choose.

Fast Fireball is also good for stopping opponents from charging their moves (Sheik Needles/DK Punch/Mario FLUDDs/Robin Thoron/etc) so that's another bonus it has. Pac-Man possibly being an exception since he can hide behind a Hydrant. Random but that's another factor I consider when picking Fireballs lol


Mario is one of the few characters in the game that legitimately wants almost all of his customs at once. Even Default FLUDD in those rare instances (Ness/Little Mac). It makes me really happy to have so many options, but it is also problematic because we can only have 4 of the 12 at any given time.

...no wonder Smogon keeps mentioning 4 moveset slot syndrome as being a huge issue, lol

 

[kesterstudios]

Mario has too many good customs lol

 

[NairWizard]

Guys, I totally didn't notice this before, but is there a reason why 2313 isn't on the list?

Mario needs to control some amount of horizontal aerial space when he lands. Without either default Fireball or Scalding FLUDD, he will not have that: his f-air is awful and his fall speed is kind of mediocre, so without a ranged threat a falling Mario is a vulnerable Mario. If I see a Mario jump into the air without either of these two moves in his kit, I'm not going to fear anything and am just going to jump in the air and start tossing out hitboxes to catch his landing instead.

Fast Fireball + High Pressure FLUDD is just a really strange combination to be running. I think it cripples Mario.