EVO legalized Customs, so lets talk about them.

[HeroMystic]

While I realize AA's Custom Moveset Project Thread exists, that is mainly a thread to input new sets for the project. This thread is meant to discuss the validation of Mario's Custom Moves and how they apply to his game.

Mario Custom Moves Showcase

To those that don't know, this is the list of all of Mario's specials.

Neutral B

1. Fireball
2. Fast Fireball
3. Fire Orb

Side B

1. Cape
2. Shocking Cape
3. Gust Cape

Up B

1. Super Jump Punch
2. Super Jump
3. Explosive Jump Punch

Down B

1. FLUDD
2. Scalding FLUDD
3. High-Pressure FLUDD

More will come later, but this is just to start the discussion.

 

[Dulop]

I think the original moves are the best. Maybe the high jump upB would be usefull for more recovery. (I dont use the original to punch enemies a lot)

 

[HeroMystic]

I will say ahead of time that Mario should never be using Full Default under a custom environment. I'll explain this point further when I have the time.

 

[Dulop]

Nice :3 waiting for that

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-mario.380346/#post-18620256

Reposted this before, but here are my current thoughts lol


Sets 2222 2212 and 2312 are probably the best sets overall to use with Scalding FLUDD, versus characters whom Mario can't gimp. While sets 2332 and 1332 are a bit more niche but have their uses for those who prefer EJP sets and staying on the ground/stage.


Set 2222 2212
- This set is the real breadwinner here, and is one of the most useful Scalding FLUDD sets overall. Very well-rounded in both offensive and defensive qualities. Extremely recommended!
- Fast Fireballs shut down aerial approaches, such as Peach's float and Jigglypuff's aerial game. Additionally, it can be freely fired even when you haven't charged your FLUDD.
- Shocking Cape greatly increases Mario's killing potential off of the stage, making it the optimal choice for contesting characters such as Peach/Jigglypuff/etc. For what it's worth, it is also faster than his Fsmash by a few frames, which won't KO until later percents but is good for getting the opponent off the stage and then use another cape to finish them off. Additionally, you can also pelt them with Fast Fireballs for funzies, or hit them with a blast of hot water to try to limit their jumps back to the stage. Lastly, using Shocking Cape improves Mario's horizontal movement speed in the air, which slightly improves his recovery but doesn't really let him stall in the air like the other capes do.
- SJP gives Mario a recovery that offers JUST enough leniency to use Shocking Cape offstage and be able to return to the ledge, while remaining extremely useful for combos and being one of the best OoS options in the entire game.
- Scalding FLUDD offers a meaty hitbox in contrast to Fast Fireball. It deals more damage, is disjointed (allowing it to contest sword wielders if necessary), and can catch spotdodges/airdodges/rolls. Retreating Scalding FLUDD is hard to contest as Mario can use the wall of hot water to easily reset the pace of the match to neutral if need be while dealing safe damage. Scalding FLUDD is also useful for approaching vs dodging options, though you must be careful as it is not safe on shield. Additionally, limit your ground uses of Scalding FLUDD, as it is extremely punishable if you do so. Especially from the air. Lastly, Scalding FLUDD charges the fastest of the three FLUDDs. Use this to your advantage to wall your opponents out, and pester them into situations where they leave holes in their defenses while also damaging them at the same time. Do take note that it has the shortest range of the FLUDDs, though. Roughly 25% of Final Destination iirc
- Also just to reiterate this: You don't have an OoS Up B option with this set. Be careful.

Set 2312
- This set is for those who love to play defensively, and gives Mario access to his amazing OoS Up B. Recommended.
- The combination of Fast Fireballs, SJP, and Scalding FLUDD offer Mario an incredibly potent wall in which opponents have to pass. This gives Mario options at range, close range, and mid range all of which he can use at his leisure. Fast Fireballs for pokes to harass the opponent (Peach/Jigglypuff don't really have the best ranged options to contest this either), SJP for its nearly unrivaled ability to be used as an invincible OoS to make opponents think twice before approaching your shield, and Scalding FLUDD to limit their own defensive options and try to wear them out mentally. This is Mario's best keep-away set. So if you really, really want to play it safe, this set is for you.
- Gust Cape is supplementary here. It aids Mario's recovery, provides a windbox to push opponents near the edge of the stage/off of the stage to limit their defensive options even further (and making them more prone to Scalding FLUDD), and is yet another tool to try to limit to try to limit an opponent's aerial approach (Peach/Jiggs are kind of slow in the air too).
- However, if people feel strongly about this, Shocking Cape can be used instead for its killing potential.
- Reason behind this? This set's weakness is that it lacks killing potential. It has combos and ways to rack up damage (SJP/Scalding FLUDD), but you would be forced to rely on Mario's Usmash/Dsmash/etc to finish opponents off, which makes your finishing approaches pretty predictable.

Sets 1332 and 2332
- These sets are for dealing gradual damage with Scalding FLUDD and finishing opponents off with EJP. Recommended.
- What Fireball you choose is up to you. If you wish to deal more damage and have a reliable air-to-ground option? Pick default Fireball. If you wish to have long range pokes and shutting down aerial options (the core reason to use Scalding FLUDD besides dodges), pick Fast Fireball. It comes down to preference, though in my personal opinion, I slightly favor default Fireballs with this set to get opponents closer to the KO range more quickly. Eeeh Fast Fireballs are better considering you are fighting opponents you can't gimp lol.
- Gust Cape is very crucial to aiding your recovery with these sets, because EJP really hinders your recovery options. You could choose to go with Shocking Cape if you REALLY want to, though EJP comes out faster and finishes opponents off more quickly as long as you use it correctly. Either way, you shouldn't try to go offstage with these sets. Stay close to the center of the stage, and control it as best as you can with your Fireballs/Scalding FLUDD/Cape Windboxes.
- With EJP, Mario now has an incredibly deadly finisher that commands respect. It comes out faster than all of his normal KO options (Usmash/Dsmash/Fsmash), while also decently serving combos and racking up high amounts of damage. Of course, this is all not without weaknesses, as you all are probably aware of. It's slower than SJP, loses invincibility (or at least comes out slower?), and of course...makes Mario's ability to recover incredibly bad outside of using the cape to help supplement it. You're a bruiser, but opponents can bruise you just as easily. Especially since the opponents you are probably going to fight with a Scalding FLUDD set are ones that Mario cannot normally gimp with High Pressure FLUDD. And because these characters can't be gimped, they have great recovery options, which they can use to drag you offstage and gimp you instead. Do not let this happen.
- On the bright side, Scalding FLUDD helps bring opponents even closer to the KO range for EJP, as well as keeping opponents at bay while wearing them down mentally. It's fast to charge, decently fast to fire, and you can retreat with it whenever you want to by using it in the air. Meaning that you will have a lot of opportunities to rack up free damage, whilst keeping you safe. Harass them with defense, and then trash them with offense once they give you the slightest opportunity.
- Although having a choice of two fireballs is nice...it's not SUPER necessary. Having two fireballs for these particular goals are more beneficial than the goals of sets 2222 and 2312, but in case another set is absolutely nedded, both have their fair share of damaging building or defensive uses for the core idea of this style of play. I'm not opposed to dropping one for another proposed set, though people would have to choose which fireball is overall better for this gameplan. Since I like both personally.

 

[Luggy]

For me, it's 2313, 1313 or the default set. I don't use custom moves that often, but I like the ones of Mario. Especially the High Pressure Fludd and Gust Cape. I however don't like the customs for the UpB, the basic one is enough for me. And it helps me doing early combos (Dthrow to UpB).

Mario really profits of custom moves a lot, while still having a great vanilla set. It's good.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Hmmm what do you guys think about having a 2212 set? This gives the 2222 set I had an OoS option, versatility, combos, and damage at the cost of recovery and going super deep with Shocking Cape. Would anyone think it would be worth it over Sets 1332 or 2332? Or any of Mario's other sets?

 

[Berserker.]

I prefer having 2232. I'll just go ahead and talk about EJP (Explosive jump punch)

The biggest turn off about EJP is its recovering ability. We all know that default (no-customs) Mario already has a mediocre recovery. EJP's recovering distance is comparable to Dr. Mario's default recovery. This basically means that you should probably never or at least, don't attempt to go off-stage a lot. If you're sent off stage, you're going to need shocking cape to help in recovering back. Yes, it doesn't really stall as well as his other cape variations but it still slightly improves his recovery horizontally. You can also switch to gust cape if you want but I prefer shocking cape. As basic as this sounds, use your second jump at the right moment and at the right position. Your second jump is now much more important to you than it was when you went with default super jump punch for the most obvious reasons

Anyway, what makes EJP worth using is the damage it deals and its insanely impressive KO power. That and well... To be honest and to be down to Earth about EJP, this GIF was the only reason why I decided to use EJP instead of default super jump punch. If the GIF link is broken, then basically what I'm saying is, you can combo into EJP which can lead to some early kills.

Ty @Lavani

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Hmmm actually, 1332 is currently the only set with the default fireball and the Scalding FLUDD. Might keep that there for people who like both of those.

Now that I think about it, is the Super Jump/Gust Cape set (2323) really necessary? It almost seems like if you really want to go that far out, you might as well have Shocking Cape to ensure that you KO someone. And even with Shocking Cape, you have enough recovery to get back to the stage in most situations, so it almost seems a bit overcompensating. I haven't really used it much but its uses seem a bit dubious to me atm. Especially since Shocking Cape can help with horizontal recovery, like you said lol (though I personally prefer Gust Cape with EJP to place opponents in bad positions for EJP setups/stalling in the air for recovery and defense)

Oh wow that combo looks similar to something I've done before. XD Only I was fighting against a C.Falcon, and it was me punishing a ledge jump with Uair -> Bair -> Reverse EJP Either way good stuff though!


Mario feeling like a Shoto up in here with Fast Fireballs and EJP

 

[Mr.M]

Normal fireballs
Explosive jump punch
Gust cape
High pressure fludd

All day

 

[TaichiYaegashi]

I prefer 2233, my favorites out of this being the fast fireballs and the shocking cape.

 

[BoTastic!]

I'm just a big fan of Fast fireball because I think normal fireballs are really bad. Far too slow on start up and it's hard to follow up with them because of the cool down.

Fast fireball shuts down a lot of approaches. It get rid of Diddy's banana so it makes FFB a lot better than cape as an option imo since you don't have to commit as hard to it.

Everything else, I can live without honestly, but I do like gust cape a lot. I'd use the EJP on characters where getting the kill really matters but recovering won't be that much of an issue. Haven't put the time to figure out who those characters are yet.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Yeah, overall I prefer Fast Fireballs because of their fluidity and their ability to contest aerial opponents with more efficiency. Though default fireballs do have their uses when it comes to air vs ground situations.

Anyways, unless someone is opposed to the idea, I say that we should replace the 2323 set with the 2212 set. Since the 2212 set would combine the qualities of the 2222 and 2312 sets, and while it would be less efficient at what it does in contrast to both of them (2222's offense and 2312's defense), it would provide a nice median for players to have as many options to them available as possible. With the only huge drawbacks being recovery and the ability to go deep with Shocking Cape. Most people would realistically choose 2222 or 2223 anyways if they wish to run Super Jump because Shocking Cape provides much more synergy and KO potential with it.


Mario

1313: Defensive HP FLUDD set, OoS SJP with emphasis on gimps using windboxes at the cost of KO potential. Buffed default set.
1332: High damage Scalding FLUDD + EJP set. Default fireballs for air vs ground and to deal more damage.
1333: High damage HP FLUDD + EJP set. Default fireballs for air vs ground and to deal more damage.
2212: Well-rounded Scalding FLUDD set that trades recovery/deep edgeguarding for an OoS Option and access to more combos.
2222: Well-rounded Scalding FLUDD set, with emphases on deep edgeguarding KOs using Super Jump and Shocking Cape.
2223: Well-rounded HP FLUDD set, with emphases on deep edgeguarding KOs using Super Jump and Shocking Cape.
2312: Defensive Scalding FLUDD set, OoS SJP and recovery with Gust Cape at the cost of KO potential.
2313: Defensive HP FLUDD set, OoS SJP and recovery with Gust Cape at the cost of KO potential. Windboxes for gimps.
2332: High damage Scaling FLUDD + EJP set. Fast fireballs for air vs air and to limit opponent approaching options. Low recovery.
2333: High damage HP FLUDD + EJP set. Useful for early KOs via EJP and windbox gimps. Low recovery.

4 high damage sets, 3 defensive sets, 3 well-rounded sets.


How does this look to everyone?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Instead of listing sets, I'll first rank specials in order of practicality in singles.

A Fast Fireballs, Gust Cape, Shocking Cape
B Explosive Jump Punch, Scalding FLUDD
C Fireballs, High Pressure FLUDD, FLUDD, Super Jump, Super Jump Punch
D Super Cape, Fire Orb

In short, the vast majority of your sets should really run Fast Fireballs and either Gust or Shocking Cape as these three custom variants are just AMAZINGLY GOOD. Even though Fast Fireballs do really low damage, they also limit your opponent's mobility safely, have really low commitment, and the free damage they provide serves to help give you more control over stale moves. Gust Cape in most situations is a straight upgrade to default as a gimping and recovery tool and doesn't need to be explained. Shocking Cape also improves your recovery in a different way, but instead serves as a high damage disjointed spacing tool which is something Mario also lacks.

Up-B and Down-B is slightly more of a tossup, with Scalding FLUDD having slightly more universal practicality than the other Down-Bs given edgeguarding with FLUDD tbh is still kind of a gimmick that people can easily avoid unless you are able to chase people offstage or the matchup is something like Little Mac. Also with custom Cape options, your slightly shorter distance on EJP is made less serious of a problem, while the damage and aerial KO potential of EJP is extremely hard to ignore given one of Mario's biggest weaknesses is lacking an aerial KO move.

Regular Fireballs aren't bad, but compared to Fast Fireballs I would consider them only for fairly specific matchups. Off the top of my head, the Links and DeDeDe are the best matchups to use regular Fireballs in for getting maximum reward from their poor midrange options and edgeguarding utility.

Super Jump and Super Jump Punch still have matchup specific utility (the former for edgeguarding and surviving certain edgeguards, the latter for anti-airing in matchups where you can't really combo into EJP and where it's also too risky to miss it such as Luigi), as do regular and High Pressure FLUDD (for clarification, I would definitely use regular FLUDD against Ness and Little Mac as opposed to High Pressure FLUDD).

Super Cape actually can be used in extremely specific matchups as the best actual Reflector option (it's better than Gust Cape for legitimate Reflect punishes due to in fact not having the windbox) though losing recovery/stalling/spacing utility is obviously dubious. Fire Orb unfortunately has no place in singles as an inferior Robin Arcfire that has less range and more commitment, but it's not a lost cause in teams.

From here, I conclude that the most useful competitive 1v1 sets for Mario are the following.

2332 (general purpose)
2233 (Duck Hunt/Villager/Olimar)
1333 (Link/DDD)
1311 (Mac/Ness)
2212 (vs hard to combo floaties)
2223 (similar to above set but with edgeguarding)

If I ever ran Default Mario, the only matchups where I would consider doing this are against Mega Man and Pac-Man.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

All very good points, @ A2ZOMG .

What are your thoughts on 2233 for Duck Hunt/Villager/Olimar? I am curious to know, since that seems to be the main set missing from the list besides 1311 (which has a similar 1313 set).

 

[A2ZOMG]

All very good points, @ A2ZOMG .

What are your thoughts on 2233 for Duck Hunt/Villager/Olimar? I am curious to know, since that seems to be the main set missing from the list besides 1311 (which has a similar 1313 set).

Fast Fireballs get used in those matchups because they simply have the best chance of actually harassing them past their projectile walls. Shocking Cape gets used because of the way the projectiles work, actually destroying them as opposed to reflecting them is slightly more practical, while you also benefit more from the damage/KO potential offstage rather than gimp potential (note, I am aware you can kill Villager in very hilarious ways if he does not understand he can Pocket most of his reflected items, and that reflecting Olimar's F-smash is an option, but killing his Pikmin especially when he does Order Tackle imo which you DO NOT WANT TO REFLECT RIGHT NOW is important). All of these characters to my recollection, even Villager with his 3 frame N-air actually can be comboed into EJP fairly reliably at potential KO ranges (but I haven't completed testing, it's just my observations of how well Mario's combo game works). Also High Pressure FLUDD (or regular for that matter) to put them offstage for trying to camp can give you time to establish some stage control.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Ah okay. Yeah those are very good reasons for running 2233 against those characters. We could try to figure out what set to replace to make room for 2233.

Also, if anyone want to replace a set I provided with something else, let me know, and we can discuss why that set can be used.

1332 is probably the one I would nix for 2233, since most people would probably want to run Fast Fireballs against opponents you can't gimp like Peach/Jiggs anyways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Mac and Ness are really weird and probably deserve explanation. Regular Up-B gets used because iirc you can interrupt things like Mac's rapid Jabs as well as Ness's PK Fire, which to me outweighs trying to go for EJP grab combos against them given it's actually really hard for Mario to play on the ground against these characters. This is also the only reason regular Fireballs get used, because spacing from the air in those matchups is so mandatory. Finally, because regular FLUDD charges faster (and thus allows you to pressure recoveries from a distance more fluidly), it does the best job of gimping these characters. Gust Cape of course helps you space from the air and gimp more reliably, so that gets used as well.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Mario

1311: Defensive FLUDD set, OoS SJP with emphasis on gimps using windboxes at the cost of KO potential. Buffed default set. Useful vs Little Mac & Ness, as standard FLUDD charges faster than HP FLUDD.
1333: High damage HP FLUDD + EJP set. Default fireballs for air vs ground and to deal more damage. Useful vs Link & DDD.
2212: Well-rounded Scalding FLUDD set that trades recovery/deep edgeguarding for an OoS Option and access to more combos. Good offense and defense.
2222: Well-rounded Scalding FLUDD set, with emphases on deep edgeguarding KOs using Super Jump and Shocking Cape. Loses an OoS Option and combos, however.
2223: Well-rounded HP FLUDD set, with emphases on deep edgeguarding KOs using Super Jump and Shocking Cape. Loses and OoS Option and combos, however.
2233: High damage HP FLUDD + EJP set. Has Shocking Cape to negate certain projectiles, and HP FLUDD to counter campers such as Villager/DHD/Olimar.
2312: Defensive Scalding FLUDD set, OoS SJP and recovery with Gust Cape at the cost of KO potential.
2313: Defensive HP FLUDD set, OoS SJP and recovery with Gust Cape at the cost of KO potential. Windboxes for gimps. Counters Luigi and other floaty characters you can't reliably hit with EJP.
2332: High damage Scaling FLUDD + EJP set. Fast fireballs for air vs air and to limit opponent approaching options. Low recovery.
2333: High damage HP FLUDD + EJP set. Useful for early KOs via EJP and windbox gimps. Low recovery.

4 high damage sets, 3 defensive sets, 3 well-rounded sets.


This is starting to look like something that can appease most people. With sets that can be used for most situations.

Set 2313 can be used in place of 1313, so it shouldn't be missed too much.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmm yeah @ ItsRainingGravy , I do think the one main set that I forgot to mention is 2313. This is best against floaty characters who you can't easily combo into EJP but who you can outcamp with Fast Fireballs and harass offstage or in spacing wars with windboxes. Luigi is the obvious example for running that set, although I would also potentially use it against Bowser and perhaps Sonic and Yoshi and WFT (ESPECIALLY if WFT takes Jumbo Hoop).

 

[HeroMystic]

Since the discussion is well underway, I won't update the OP and co-sign with @ ItsRainingGravy and @ A2ZOMG

I want to reiterate just how important having Fast Fireball is. It's frame data is literally half of what Fireball is (Fireball comes out on frame 16, Fast Fireball comes out on frame 8). Yes, the damage is low, but when you account for the fact that Fireball is really easy to powershield, that discussion is almost irrelevant. You want to use Fireball against opponents with bad zoning mechanics, as it is easier to manipulate Mario with Default Fireball than Fast Fireball.

I also want to emphasize the only issue with Shocking Cape: The commitment. Shocking Cape has the most recovery time out of all the capes at it's cost of being a solid disjointed attack. This would be the only reason why I would hesitate equipping it to combat characters like Marth and Ike whom excel at mid-range, and it may just be better to use Gust Cape in combination with Fast Fireball to outspace them. The recovery time on Gust Cape is also the reason why Super Cape is still the best at reflecting projectiles.

Vs Mac and Ness are really weird and probably deserve explanation. Regular Up-B gets used because iirc you can interrupt things like Mac's rapid Jabs as well as Ness's PK Fire, which to me outweighs trying to go for EJP grab combos against them given it's actually really hard for Mario to play on the ground against these characters. This is also the only reason regular Fireballs get used, because spacing from the air in those matchups is so mandatory. Finally, because regular FLUDD charges faster (and thus allows you to pressure recoveries from a distance more fluidly), it does the best job of gimping these characters. Gust Cape of course helps you space from the air and gimp more reliably, so that gets used as well.

Experience against Ness tells me it's actually better to just Powershield PK Fire or bait it out and jump over it and punish the commitment via tomahawk. SJP doesn't come out as needed 100% of time if you're caught in the hitstun. The fact that fireball keeps Ness grounded also helps with this. The reason why I would take SJP over EJP against Ness is because if he edgeguards with PK Fire and you get caught in it, you're completely screwed if you have EJP.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

*snip*

Nooot really sure what you mean by the first sentence, lol. Well I understand what it means, though I am not quite sure why you said it.

Yeah. That's why I always tend to run Fast Fireball myself. It is literally way too slow for most applications, being 1 frame slower than his Fsmash. Default Fireball is nice for air vs ground situations when they are absolutely needed, but other than that, I see literally no use for it since the practicality of Fast Fireballs are so much more efficient.

I keep hearing mixed thoughts on the capes with the most recovery time. Shocking Cape and Gust Cape. I personally say it is Shocking Cape so I agree, since it seems massively unsafe on shield. I also agree about not wanting to use Shocking Cape to contest sword wielders.

If I were to use disjoints to contest sword characters, I would go with set 2312 or 2332 personally. Because I could poke with Fast Fireballs, gimp with Gust Cape, power through certain attacks with SJP and use it for combos since sword wielders have larger hurtboxes (or use EJP instead which does similar things but isn't as safe yet it can KO easily), and lastly use Scalding FLUDD since it is a disjointed attack that outranges them and builds up damage. However, 2313 and 2333 might be more useful, as most sword users hate being pushed off of the stage because it cripples their options.


EDIT: I would also like to make room for a Super Cape set, because of its frame advantage and usefulness against projectiles. However, against what opponents would this be absolutely necessary on? Most projectiles in this game seem easy enough to power-shield or avoid from my own personal experience, though it would probably be something I would consider against Pac-Man because of how diverse his ranged options are. What do you guys think? What characters would Super Cape be necessary for?

 

[HeroMystic]

Nooot really sure what you mean by the first sentence, lol. Well I understand what it means, though I am not quite sure why you said it.

I was originally going to make a huge HeroMystic-esque post for the OP, but I would just be parroting what you said. So I'm simply giving you two the credit.

Megaman is the best contender for Super Cape. I see no reason to use the customs against him because lemons and his aerials makes this difficult to use (especially the lemons). Samus is also a good contender for Super Cape just because of Charged Shot plus her customs. Lucario might be good to use Super Cape against for Aura Sphere and Force Palm. Gust Cape has it's uses though on him though.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I was originally going to make a huge HeroMystic-esque post for the OP, but I would just be parroting what you said. So I'm simply giving you two the credit.

Megaman is the best contender for Super Cape. I see no reason to use the customs against him because lemons and his aerials makes this difficult to use (especially the lemons). Samus is also a good contender for Super Cape just because of Charged Shot plus her customs. Lucario might be good to use Super Cape against for Aura Sphere and Force Palm. Gust Cape has it's uses though on him though.

Oh okay XD

I was thinking Mega Man as well, though I wasn't really sure how effective cape was against him specifically because of how safe his lemons are (and how I have limited matchup experience since I'm the only one that plays him where I live). His Metal Blade is also relatively safeish due to how he can throw it in 8 directions. Though it DOES make his day miserable any time he decides to use an unsafe Fsmash. So if all else fails I guess that is a warranted use lol. Being able to have something to protect you against his Uair is pretty nice too. So I'm kinda 50/50 for him in regards to the cape though countering Fsmash alone might be worth it.

As for Samus, that is definitely a good reason for using Cape. For as many reflector moves as there is, Samus's Charge Shot is still rather scary because of how she can fire it pretty much any time she wants to. I think this would also apply to Robin with his Arcfire and Thoron+. Being able to reflect his long range options in conjunction with outmaneuvering his slow speed (both on the ground and in the air) sounds like a very solid use for Super Cape.

For Lucario, I thought that you weren't able to reflect Force Palm? Unless I am mistaken. I think you can absorb it, but not reflect it. idk

 

[A2ZOMG]

The lag on Shocking Cape isn't really awful when you consider the risk/reward in aerial spacing situations. Yes you get punished if you whiff it, but simultaneously if you know you're in a position to use it against someone trying to space you out, the range and damage on the move gives it utility that is found nowhere else on Mario's moveset. While Gust Cape is safer, it mostly just resets you to neutral, which of course can be preferred against someone like Luigi who can be zoned out and camped. My experience however against Marth is getting a good read when he wants to do an aerial and contesting him with Shocking Cape is very worth it, and forces a level of respect from him in midrange. I won't do it if I feel he's only playing from the ground and there rather my options are projectiles and dashgrab, but in the air Shocking Cape is generally speaking a great option.

The other thing about Shocking Cape is the angle at which it sends you in the air is pretty unique, which additionally has significant utility when spacing or getting out of bad situations.

Oh okay XD

I was thinking Mega Man as well, though I wasn't really sure how effective cape was against him specifically because of how safe his lemons are (and how I have limited matchup experience since I'm the only one that plays him where I live). His Metal Blade is also relatively safeish due to how he can throw it in 8 directions. Though it DOES make his day miserable any time he decides to use an unsafe Fsmash. So if all else fails I guess that is a warranted use lol. Being able to have something to protect you against his Uair is pretty nice too. So I'm kinda 50/50 for him in regards to the cape though countering Fsmash alone might be worth it.

As for Samus, that is definitely a good reason for using Cape. For as many reflector moves as there is, Samus's Charge Shot is still rather scary because of how she can fire it pretty much any time she wants to. I think this would also apply to Robin with his Arcfire and Thoron+. Being able to reflect his long range options in conjunction with outmaneuvering his slow speed (both on the ground and in the air) sounds like a very solid use for Super Cape.

For Lucario, I thought that you weren't able to reflect Force Palm? Unless I am mistaken. I think you can absorb it, but not reflect it. idk

The reason Default Cape is good vs Mega Man is because it basically ensures he never F-smashes you and also in some niche situations is great against his D-air, while Gust Cape windboxes imo do a fairly poor job of gimping Mega Man. I guess if you really wanted to Shocking Cape technically has more uses against Mega Man for sometimes trading against his aerials, but imo forcing him to not use certain options with Regular is actually better in this matchup.

I almost would recommend Default Cape vs Robin but his recovery is actually really easily screwed over and additional windboxes from Gust Cape are useful for helping that. Mario already beats Robin in a camping war with either default or Fast Fireballs, so you don't need to worry too much about specifically needing to reflect his stuff as long as you zone carefully. Similarly against Samus, I find that windboxes are actually really really strong against her recovery and can force her in really awkward positions. Also if she's trying to escape your juggles with Bombs, and you send her offstage with Gust Cape and FLUDD facing backwards, I think she actually has fairly limited options and you can usually capitalize on that.

And Force Palm can be reflected.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The lag on Shocking Cape isn't really awful when you consider the risk/reward in aerial spacing situations. Yes you get punished if you whiff it, but simultaneously if you know you're in a position to use it against someone trying to space you out, the range and damage on the move gives it utility that is found nowhere else on Mario's moveset. While Gust Cape is safer, it mostly just resets you to neutral, which of course can be preferred against someone like Luigi who can be zoned out and camped. My experience however against Marth is getting a good read when he wants to do an aerial and contesting him with Shocking Cape is very worth it, and forces a level of respect from him in midrange. I won't do it if I feel he's only playing from the ground and there rather my options are projectiles and dashgrab, but in the air Shocking Cape is generally speaking a great option.

The other thing about Shocking Cape is the angle at which it sends you in the air is pretty unique, which additionally has significant utility when spacing or getting out of bad situations.

The reason Default Cape is good vs Mega Man is because it basically ensures he never F-smashes you and also in some niche situations is great against his D-air, while Gust Cape windboxes imo do a fairly poor job of gimping Mega Man. I guess if you really wanted to Shocking Cape technically has more uses against Mega Man for sometimes trading against his aerials, but imo forcing him to not use certain options with Regular is actually better in this matchup.

I almost would recommend Default Cape vs Robin but his recovery is actually really easily screwed over and additional windboxes from Gust Cape are useful for helping that. Mario already beats Robin in a camping war with either default or Fast Fireballs, so you don't need to worry too much about specifically needing to reflect his stuff as long as you zone carefully. Similarly against Samus, I find that windboxes are actually really really strong against her recovery and can force her in really awkward positions. Also if she's trying to escape your juggles with Bombs, and you send her offstage with Gust Cape and FLUDD facing backwards, I think she actually has fairly limited options and you can usually capitalize on that.

And Force Palm can be reflected.

Interesting notes about Shocking Cape. And yeah. One good thing I found about Shocking Cape is that because it doesn't really stall like the other capes do, you can use it as an air vs ground move in certain situations. Specifically if you think the opponent is trying to contest your range with an attack of their own, or if you expect them to short hop.

Hmm yeah Gust Cape kind of sucks against Mega because of his surprising aerial mobility, and Shocking Cape is only really good for what you said. So yeah default is probably best here. The question is though: Should a set be made for default cape? And what would be replaced for it, if necessary? I can definitely see the benefits on having a default cape set, but finding the space for it might be a bit tough currently. Since all of the current sets definitely have their uses.

So far from the sounds of things, there aren't too many characters in which you absolutely would want to have Super Cape since most matchups don't really require you to reflect projectiles to have a clear edge. Mega Man being an exception. Pac-Man, now that I think about it, would probably have problems against Shocking Cape since it could contest every aerial he has. And Gust Cape's windboxes could probably screw with his projectiles/possibly put him in a bad position especially if you are running HP FLUDD.

And huh. Interesting to note. Seems awkward that Mario can reflect that but hey that's good for us lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ ItsRainingGravy Pac Man actually Default Cape is great because if he tries to do Hydrant zoning shenanigans, being able to REFLECT it safely puts you in a very favorable position in neutral. Plus if you read him tossing it towards you, you can send it back up to him for a lot of damage.

Though you can deflect a bunch of his stuff with windboxes, I actually find that reflectors are really good against him. I also generally speaking find it very difficult to edgeguard Pac Man in most situations, though Shocking Cape probably is decent enough as a spacing tool when the projectile destruction in its own way lets you get around his stuff. But really, I have to emphasize that reflectors are VERY useful against Pac Man.

 

[popsofctown]

Wellz. I'm not gonna read the posts here, I don't really want to dispute what other people say, just want to say my piece. I have been maining Mario for precisely one month after secondarying him since before the game came out (played him 999 times in the demo). It's precisely one month because I have a monthly tournament in my area and I pretty much made the transition after the last tournament and saw some improvement in this month's monthly.

Default fireball seems worse than fast fireball. By, like, a lot. I think D3 is the only thing in the game making default fireball have a purpose. I used fast fireball every game of my last tournament. Default fireball has its merits, but really I think there should only be one default fireball set, specifically for D3, because I feel like you should "main" fast fireball. That is, even though default fireball has merits and may have value against certain characters or playstyles other than D3, it's just not possible that those merits will add up enough to make up for the need to switch your playstyle to adapt to having the different playstyle. Switching to vanilla fireball on the fly will hurt you when you start playing your neutral game in a way that developed around fast fireball, among other factors. If you have the ability to be versatile, the same energy it would take to learn to use both of them effectively would be better spent on his other customs or an entirely different character.

On the up B's, I feel strongly EJP is the best one. Adding a rest type move to your moveset just gives you free value whenever your opponent does something punishable, even if you don't additionally get value out of EJP from hard reads, true combos, clever risk mitigation EJPs ("roosting" EJP on a platform, etc). Vanilla jump punch I'm sure has a place, in particular against characters that aren't ever going to let you have a punish EJP. I don't know which characters those are.
I have doubts about whether the high jump is ever good. It seems like if some character is dominating you with their gimp game so well that shocking/gust + default jump punch won't get you back to the stage, you've already lost. Removing your OoS move is waving a white flag instead of getting enough control of the matchup to make sure you don't get gimped that terribly. That's how I felt after trying out the move against Falcon and Sheik.
I know there's the whole Marth style gain the power to go deep on gimps factor, but I can't think of a matchup where that will be worthwhile. The same characters tend to be susceptible to FLUDD or dying from EJP off the top or something.

FLUDDs.. maybe i'm just bad, but I can't get value out of FLUDDs in this game. So many characters seem to recover low just fine. It seems like the characters with such canned, poor recoveries that they would be susceptible to FLUDD generally are more susceptible to Gust Cape, and I don't have to charge Gust Cape. Because I believe in FLUDD in general so little I'm starting to like default FLUDD better than high pressure fludd, since I don't want to invest any time into charging at all except in between stocks. And even more so than that I want to join the cult of RainingGravy and figure out how to master Scalding Fludd and make that useful because it charges faster and isn't mutually exclusive with my other gimping options since it's an onstage tool.

I'm saving capes for last because it's the craziest.. I just love Shocking Cape and I think it's the Takooni Suit's knees. I use it against characters with projectiles, without projectiles, whatever. I use it against a lot of highly gimpable characters because I am just at home with Shocking Cape. I don't know that much about how to defend it with logic, it just wins me games. I don't think I actually used any other capes last tournament, I mostly played 2233. I like to dash dance a lot with Mario, and I really like dash dancing away and predicting a certain approach, then Shocking Caping. If they went in like I guessed, I get damage, if they didn't, the dash dance away makes the whole shebang pretty safe. I even use Shocking Cape against Megaman, I've played tons of games against Megaman.

 

[BSP]

Guys, if people are recovering super low to avoid FLUDD, considering FLUDDing them under the stage instead if there's no solid bottom, or trapping them in a lip.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

@ ItsRainingGravy Pac Man actually Default Cape is great because if he tries to do Hydrant zoning shenanigans, being able to REFLECT it safely puts you in a very favorable position in neutral. Plus if you read him tossing it towards you, you can send it back up to him for a lot of damage.

Though you can deflect a bunch of his stuff with windboxes, I actually find that reflectors are really good against him. I also generally speaking find it very difficult to edgeguard Pac Man in most situations, though Shocking Cape probably is decent enough as a spacing tool when the projectile destruction in its own way lets you get around his stuff. But really, I have to emphasize that reflectors are VERY useful against Pac Man.

...man I need to play Smash 4 more. Forgot about the hydrant. :/ Definitely a good reason for Default Cape for sure.

What kind of Default Cape sets would you guys want to have? What set should it replace?

 

[A2ZOMG]

...man I need to play Smash 4 more. Forgot about the hydrant. :/ Definitely a good reason for Default Cape for sure.

What kind of Default Cape sets would you guys want to have? What set should it replace?

My opinion is I'd just go default Mario against Mega Man and Pac Man, and we don't need a Default Cape set. The benefits from other custom moves against them aren't really large enough to justify making another set just for Default Cape, and I can't think of other matchups where having a strict reflector and sacrificing the spacing and edgeguarding utility of Gust Cape is worth it.

 

[HeroMystic]

If we're gonna make a set for Super Cape, I don't see anything better than 2111 or 2113. Super Cape only has good synergy with Fast Fireball and HP FLUDD, and I only see 2111 beneficial against Megaman and Pac-Man. I know Bo prefers 2111 but I'm not sure if it's worth losing any of the current sets. Both MUs already have Mario with the advantage in Default.

Also the more I use Scalding FLUDD, the more I like it. It seems silly at first but this custom is the most versatile out of all the FLUDDs and gives Mario a meaty transcendent priority hitbox with a fairly large disjoint that only takes three seconds to charge which only affects range. The only downside is it's damage.

Calling forth @ NairWizard for his experience on Shocking Cape. My view on it has been generally positive minus the cooldown, but I'd like to hear from someone who has used it in tournament.

 

[popsofctown]

If we're gonna make a set for Super Cape, I don't see anything better than 2111 or 2113. Super Cape only has good synergy with Fast Fireball and HP FLUDD, and I only see 2111 beneficial against Megaman and Pac-Man. I know Bo prefers 2111 but I'm not sure if it's worth losing any of the current sets. Both MUs already have Mario with the advantage in Default.

Also the more I use Scalding FLUDD, the more I like it. It seems silly at first but this custom is the most versatile out of all the FLUDDs and gives Mario a meaty transcendent priority hitbox with a fairly large disjoint that only takes three seconds to charge which only affects range. The only downside is it's damage.

Calling forth @ NairWizard for his experience on Shocking Cape. My view on it has been generally positive minus the cooldown, but I'd like to hear from someone who has used it in tournament.

Someone -else- who has used it in tournament, or someone you respect that has used it in tournament? Please clarify.

 

[HeroMystic]

Someone -else- who has used it in tournament, or someone you respect that has used it in tournament? Please clarify.

I just want more information on Shocking Cape. You can go into more detail of your experiences with Shocking Cape more if you'd like.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

If we're gonna make a set for Super Cape, I don't see anything better than 2111 or 2113. Super Cape only has good synergy with Fast Fireball and HP FLUDD, and I only see 2111 beneficial against Megaman and Pac-Man. I know Bo prefers 2111 but I'm not sure if it's worth losing any of the current sets. Both MUs already have Mario with the advantage in Default.

Also the more I use Scalding FLUDD, the more I like it. It seems silly at first but this custom is the most versatile out of all the FLUDDs and gives Mario a meaty transcendent priority hitbox with a fairly large disjoint that only takes three seconds to charge which only affects range. The only downside is it's damage.

Yeah I think we can go without a Super Cape set then if the default is good enough for those two matchups.

So...I guess that means that we're done then? Seems like we had just enough room for all of the sets we wanted, lol


And I am really glad people are starting to like Scalding FLUDD/that I pushed for it. It has been a sorely underlooked custom move when people first found out about it, but it's actually really good. It is pretty much a chargeable flamethrower but with more knockback, and Mario has much more leniency with it due to how good his aerial mobility is in Smash 4. And while the damage isn't great, the fact that it does any sort of damage at all helps Mario deal a little bit more damage than he could without it, which is a plus in my eyes. If anything, I would say the actual downsides to it are that it is vulnerable to being jumped over if you use it on the ground, and how it surprisingly isn't all that safe on shields. Other than that though, it is probably my favorite custom move for Mario besides Fast Fireball.

Also, one interesting application for Scalding FLUDD which has limited but still potential use, is to fire Scalding FLUDD when it is uncharged. Because this allows you to fire the Scalding FLUDD at a lower angle when you are in the air, which can potentially catch and surprise opponents who try to dash under you. Someone should give that a try! However, for the most part, you do want to charge Scalding FLUDD for its additional range because the main draws of the move are what you said lol

 

[M@v]

Is there truly bad custom for Mario besides Super Jump, and maybe shocking cape? And shocking cape is bad moreso because of how good gust cape is than any fault of his own. I mean, you still find some use for his "bad" customs, such as giant fireballs. I think he has the best overall custom moveset options in the game.

Also, I wanted to ask other Marios about this one. Do you guys think High Pressure FLUDD is a straight upgrade to normal FLUDD if you ignore the longer charge time? I can't tell because if you fully charge high pressure you get pushed back A LOT, making it hard to follow up. My other question is at what point the high pressure FLUDD's pushback surpasses normal FLUDD? You get less kickback from high pressure if its not fully charged, so if there's a point it passes Normal FLUDD's power, but doesn't give that much of a recoil penalty, you have got a winner.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Is there truly bad custom for Mario besides Super Jump, and maybe shocking cape? And shocking cape is bad moreso because of how good gust cape is than any fault of his own. I mean, you still find some use for his "bad" customs, such as giant fireballs. I think he has the best overall custom moveset options in the game.

Also, I wanted to ask other Marios about this one. Do you guys think High Pressure FLUDD is a straight upgrade to normal FLUDD if you ignore the longer charge time? I can't tell because if you fully charge high pressure you get pushed back A LOT, making it hard to follow up. My other question is at what point the high pressure FLUDD's pushback surpasses normal FLUDD? You get less kickback from high pressure if its not fully charged, so if there's a point it passes Normal FLUDD's power, but doesn't give that much of a recoil penalty, you have got a winner.

Super Jump is bad in that you lose an OoS Option and Combos, which really sucks, but it has niche uses with Shocking Cape in particular as it allows him to go for really deep edgeguards and early KOs he wouldn't normally be able to obtain. Overall the other two recovery options are indeed better.


As for HP FLUDD information, and information about the FLUDDs in general, here are my two topics specifically about them:

http://smashboards.com/threads/scalding-fludd-useless-perhaps-not.376560/
http://smashboards.com/threads/fludd-vs-high-pressure-fludd.376120/

If you halfway charge it, or simply jump before using HP FLUDD, the pushback becomes inconsequential. Because the large knockback only really applies to using it on the ground. The only true weakness HP FLUDD has in comparison to the default FLUDD is the loss of a little bit of range.


The only truly bad custom Mario has is giant fireball, but even then it has uses in teams. But yeah I agree. Mario is one of the few characters in which all of his custom moves are good, to the point where he overall might have the best customs in the game.

 

[M@v]

Great post about the HPF, thanks! I was on the right track then looks like .

Here's a good use for scalding FLUDD: Use it vs sonic. Its stops his spindash, and can just run right through your FLUDD otherwise. Scalding FLUDD is a lot more situational IMHO, but its a goto option in some situations, vs sonic being the most prevalent one to me so far. In fact, characters that are really hard to gimp or affect with the other FLUDDs may warrant a look with scalding FLUDD

 

[popsofctown]

Shocking cape kills below the ledge from onstage. It can outright kill a lot of characters offstage that you could have gimped with gust cape, giving you the same result, but shocking cape has more use onstage. The weird aerial momentum shift makes it really safe to use speculatively onstage, kind of like Brawl's wavebounced pkfires or something. It gives you a better forward air in a lot of situations, adding a peachy amount of threat to the space in front of you for reads or punishes. You should still try to not face your opponent anyway because of back air of course.

Gust cape doesn't seem to make me happy against projectile characters because it just keeps them at the max range they want to be in. It pushes them away, I want them close, their projectile game is better than me, their moves have longer range than mine.

If you couldn't shield gust cape's windbox, gust cape would have more use onstage for disengaging and spacing and stuff, but once people start shielding the windbox the risk reward on using it for the windbox gets really nasty since the reward is spacing and the risk is damage (low damage, usually, because someone has to shield far away from you and dash out of that with some weak option. But it's still damage).

Using both Explosive Punch and Shocking Cape gives you two great kill moves for when either one gets stale. If people give you tons of OoS explosive punches you kind of have to take them, it's so much damage, so you want another kill move that will be fresh and isn't as difficult to land as your smashes.

 

[NairWizard]

Calling forth @ NairWizard for his experience on Shocking Cape. My view on it has been generally positive minus the cooldown, but I'd like to hear from someone who has used it in tournament.

Shocking Cape is mostly useful for onstage KOs. I don't find myself going offstage with it too much because the cooldown gets me hammered. Mario struggles in certain MUs (or goes even where he would otherwise win) because he can't get the KO as fast as his opponent, and since Shocking Cape is an aerial KO move (means unblockable; you have to dodge), it gives him a way to kill those characters without making a risky ground read with up-smash. Note that the choice of Shocking Cape as a KO move kind of depends on your opponent's aerial moveset.

I would take Shocking Cape against Ganondorf. If you whiff an up-smash on Ganondorf, you get d-tilt or f-tilted which can KO you, or Flame Choke which can do tons of damage. If you whiff Shocking Cape you get hit by up-air, which is a much milder propostion.

But I would not take Shocking Cape against DK. You won't really get a chance to use it. If you whiff Shocking Cape against DK and you eat his up-air you're getting KOed most of the time. DK's airspeed is also excellent. Gust Speed feels like the logically superior choice here, just because the cooldown on Shocking Cape makes it so risky to use against DK.

It's super matchup-dependent, imo.

But I would probably take Scalding Fludd against both. Disjointed aerial attack matters a lot against characters who outrange you.

I would only take High Pressure Fludd (which is really good, by the way) against characters who zone, because you often want to push them offstage to regain space control.