EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO SLOW-- Sonic Match-up Thread 01/18/15 GAME AND WATCH! WATCH HIM GAME! And stuff

[RedrappeR]

We needed to make one. So I have.

Post all of Sonic's Match-ups, ask questions, discuss how slow everybody is compared to you.

Get live.
12/01/14-- GRENINJA Discussion. This week we're tackling how to deal with this dude as that was the last question asked. On Sunday I'll collate some of the most helpful stuff, put it up at the top here for ya'll. It'll be like

12/25/14 -- Sorry. I go to Berklee and finals kicked in and anybody who goes to that school news it's crazy. Anyway, this week... DIDDY KONG. Sincerely will update sunday.


01/05/15 -- Lil Mac-- since we're on the subject already.

01/18/15 -- Game And Watch! Lets get it in!
DIDDY KONG

Let me start out by saying diddy kong is probably the most difficult matchup.

I have had good luck with baiting monkey flips and proper spacing.

Rush down when Diddy uses banana to catch him during the animation.

Don't get grabbed and if you get thrown use dodge and not up-b.

His ftilt is vulnerable to fsmashes if you can catch the dirty ape spacing with it

Air to air isn't that bad.

I have hard time approaching a diddy with a banana in his hand.

In closing I hate diddy kong, banana peels are dumb and his throw to up air is the most broken set up in the game. If his throw knock back was changed slightly or his up air was nerfed this would rebalance him.

I'm thinking about learning diddy kong for the matchup as well as a counterpick.

Anybody know how to DI his death throw to prevent.....DEATH?

Just wanted to share some insight on the diddy MU. I have been playing Zinoto alot (probably the best diddy atm), and am starting to realize dash dancing is an amazing option vs diddy especially. If you dash dance smart enough you can bait out options like fair and side b, if diddy side b's toward you throwing out pivot f tilt beats side b, SC and SD stops you if you run onto a banana , you do not get tripped, you can use this to trick diddy's who are unaware of this by SD/SC onto a bannana in front of a diddy (since they like to leave bannanas in front of them) and go into another option since your SC stops and you can act quickly after hitting the banana. SC overall is risky against diddy, his uair beats it and obviously most of his other options beat it, i would suggest using SC/SD cautiously, also make sure if u SD/SC his shield to do an option where he can't uair you immediately after, like spring out or double jump away safely, we don't wanna give diddy any free uairs. DIddy's fair will either beat or trade with our fair, so running short hop fair isnt a great option either, since 1 hit of fair does like 1 damage and diddy's fair does like 10 or something. Be careful about using dair out os up b since ZInoto started punishing me on the way down, mix up by just landing, go to the ledge or cross up with a nair when landing. Gimps are what can make or break this MU imo, if you can force a diddy into an up b situation, it is very easy to gimp diddy. Most diddys will be aware of this, and will probably try to side b and jump to the stage, I was conecting bairs on his side b very frequently, and when he was forced to up b, i connected many bairs on him on the way up, and drop down nair works I believe on his up b (I may be wrong on this), I also think dairing off the stage (from a safe height) is a good tool against recovering diddys. In conclusion, this MU is very tough, diddys moves beat most of ours, and like most of sonics MUS, i feel we need to bait alot, be sure to respect diddy's options, they are all very quick and safe.

You DI away from where Diddy is facing, correct? That's what I've been doing. Or is it better to DI away from where he's facing?

Also, I don't think Diddy's bananas are that big of a deal anymore. It's his neutral game that became way more terrifying (his normals were already good in Brawl and they only made them better with the exception of dash attack which is still pretty good). My only problem with the single peel he gets is that we can't spindash over it anymore. Items are even easier to catch in this game I've noticed, plus bananas disappear on hit so you can't keep tripping on them. Brawl was stupid with bananas. Two peels that lasted so long that you could trip indefinitely back and forth on.

I also think Diddy is easier than Sheik for us. The only thing I'm afraid of against Diddy is Dthrow>Uair. Everything else is super manageable.

GRENINJA

Strategies--

Discussing Greninja? I'll add some input and general ideas.

I can say that you absolutely do not want to get grabbed by Greninja because it usually combos into Uair and leads to some extreme juggling. Do NOT Dair to the ground, just pick a smart option such as move towards the edge or offstage as you are getting juggled.

If you are far away Greninja will happily throw water shurikens, pay attention to the shuriken and the sounds Greninja makes because that can tell the difference between a little shuriken and a charged one. We have the speed to punish a fully charged one from the middle of the stage.

I feel down throw is important because Greninja is on the ground or put into a bad spot and it's rather uncomfortable for Greninja because he can't hurl shurikens or grab you.

I don't think you should even attempt to juggle Greninja because his Dair is so good if he is high in the air. If you do try stay to the sides and under, just watch out for a fast fall fair or bair.

We do have spin dash though which almost always combos into something and Greninja knows it so don't be predictable.

Usmash is his primary kill move so try and bait him into being hasty and punish it hard.

It feels even or slightly in Greninja's favor and I know this post makes it seem impossible but you do have to understand what Greninja can do.

Now as far as Greninja is concerned, I feel this is one of a handful of matchups we should strive to be prepared for, going forward. Fortunately in my local scene we have a competent player who mains Greninja, so I can play this matchup locally and develop it.

I feel we have some breathing space in neutral, compared to some alternate matchups, though we must be wary of Water Shuriken at max distances. No sense running into projectiles for no reason, right? We can scout how the opponent plans to continue playing neutral without committing too much with dash-shield, walking, empty hopping and shield cancelling Spin Dash or bluffing Spin Charge.
Mixing up our approach is important to consistently get into Greninja; we can approach while remaining grounded just fine, so long as we're wary of the projectile, and Greninja's various other scouting tactics and pokes, such as DTilt. Walking is just as important as dashing to preserve consistent spacing and not overcommit. Fortunately, our own spaced pokes are a consistent match against Greninja's, so we can play the poke game as long as we remain aware of our spaced attacks against his. Our FTilt, DTilt and FSmash are all usable options, depending on the unique quirks of each situation. FSmash in particular is a strong punish against whiffed tilts, and even Greninja's own whiffed FSmash. SD/SC baits and spaced auto-cancelled Fair can also punish whiffed attacks and careless short hops if we anticipate correctly.

Greninja falls quite fast, so traditional juggling isn't easy, although I don't believe his air speed is particularly great, so we can at least cover his landing on the ground without too much trouble, as long as we're prepared for potential landing mixup. Patience is important, as Greninja's strongest attacks can end our stocks quite early, including USmash and FSmash. Even Fair and Uair can prove fatal if we don't play the air correctly. Don't overcommit and mixup your descent game as to avoid being on the defending end of a juggle situation.
Greninja's UThrow is pretty decent, particularly at lower percents where it sets up a potential juggle scenario. Our Jab is excellent, and very important for stuffing grab/dash-grab attempts, just use it sensibly and in moderation, as having our jab baited out can result in being punish hard by something like an FSmash or DTilt.
We can cover Greninja's options returning to the stage with good reading and spacing; FTilt and Fair cover some generic ledge options, such as neutral getup, or jumping from the ledge. Getting a grab to punish a ledge recovery is also great, as DThrow and BThrow can reset the situation, or even KO in the case of the latter. We can really give Greninja a hard time on the ledge if we're patient and pick up on ledge habits quickly.
This does go both ways, though. I can't stress mixing up your ledge options enough, as Greninja can reasonably cover a lot of them. SH-Nair beats our getup-roll from the ledge, and Fair punishes jumping from the ledge. Be very careful with rolling from the ledge in particular, as Nair links into other moves, meaning the punish is potentially quite hard. Neutral getup loses to any well timed attack like FSmash, and most attacks Greninja can throw out will beat SD/SC, so don't rely on them too much.

Videos ---

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLpUZpwLyU4YdPk1iBaqWvCj54Lfuinek - Cong(Greninja) vs Ixisnaugus(sonic)


LITTLE MAC

I can tell you as a Mac main that you don't want to rely on aggresive ground options. Pivot ftilt, dash attacks, spin dashes, I punish all of these with a super armor smash attack. Down smash can be particularly effective. And since he's always at "dying percent", he's very open to taking these trades in damage (since moves will send him farther, but higher). The one thing that always beats out super armor is a grab. Unless you're confident in some fake out maneuver or mind game, I recommend only grabs when grounded in neutral. Mac is fairly light, so if you let him live long, remember that vertical kills are very much an option, especially if you can chase him upward using Uair. Finally, get a feel for how high and how far Mac can recover after being launched. If you don't have to edgeguard, then don't take a chance at helping him get back because of his counter. Just like in Melee, if all you had to do was grab the ledge, then just do that.

Above all else, dedicated Mac mains are masters of fundamentals. They keep center stage, they space, and they use every option available to them. Win or lose, a match against Mac will end sooner than any other matchup. You need to keep him guessing and change your strategy faster than you might be used to.

Bthrow destroys Little Mac.

I sort of did a breakdown in another thread, but it basically comes down to not letting Mac do what he wants. If you stay grounded and try to use your normals a lot against him you're going to have a bad time.

Just grab him and upthrow then pursue, or use bthrow if you're in the position. Bair edgeguard, spring gimp, and you have a dead Mac.

I main both Sonic and Mac so here are some thoughts: most Mac's are spam players. They will jab and tilt the heck out of you and with Sonic this is even worse because of his low priority moves. However, Mac is trash in the air as is common knowledge. What you want to do is approach him from the air, get an attack in and quickly move away, ideally when he whiffed an attack. Just watch out for his up-smash because it has a surprisingly good range. Mix-up your approaches a bit by double jumping in opposite directions, spindashing into a jump or homing attacks.

You can also condition Mac to shield or jab when he hears you start spinning your side/down B attack and then cancel it. This is true for every matchup but especially for Mac as getting grabbed is extremely bad for him. You do want to look out for his jabs though because it will cancel your spins. Try not to rely too much on it for damage in this matchup and use it more as a mindgame tool. This is also one of the matchups where you can reliably get many homing attacks in because of his jab locks or whiffed attacks. Mac will almost never follow you in the air. So the only options he has when you attack him is either attacking back or shielding. His shield will deplete quickly if you use your spindashes and his attacks can easily be avoided by simply jumping where you're superior. Many Mac's rely on smashes and are not too shy to use them frequently. Though Mac's smashes are pretty quick, they are punishable with Sonic's speed and grab. You can then just throw him up or away from the stage to juggle/gimp him.

Whatever you do, do not use attacks with long cooldown (dash attack / Dair from low distance) as you WILL get punished for it because of Mac's speed and power. Also do not trade punches with him to try get the KO. He has super armor and good Macs know how to abuse this. If you're fishing for the KO, approach from the air to start launching him or get a grab.

 

[infomon]

Sonic vs Diddy. what to do. plz halp.

diddy seems mad good in this game........

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I actually haven't played against diddy kong yet. His banana game looked awfully nerfed, but all I hear is good stuff about him. So, what buffs did he get? He had a solid moveset without bananas in Brawl, but they're the reason he was so high on the tier list.

Edit: For the sake of keeping things organized, I'd suggest keeping custom moves separate from the base moves of characters. Some customs are absurd and completely change a match. Played some Luigi and was confused as hell when I saw Guile style projectiles being thrown that encase the target in ice upon contact. I guess what I'm trying to say is have the character discussion and then have the custom moves as a side discussion.

 

[jordanm43444]

Im in serious need of getting help for Sonic vs Tink. As for Diddy, because of his ****ing broken Hitstun Cancel, the MU is going to be difficult. You can NOT rely on combos from a Side/DownB since from my EXP he can just cancel his hitsun and punish/clash with you instead.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

How does Diddy cancel hit stun?

 

[jordanm43444]

He literally just mashes B while in hitstun and hell pull is peanut gun out and can then cancel that into anything else, if my memory serves correct

EDIT: Here is a video of it in action - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IxkIIG_Q0E

Part 2 also shows off a bit more = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCH3sjt_zyc

 

[Camalange]

He literally just mashes B while in hitstun and hell pull is peanut gun out and can then cancel that into anything else, if my memory serves correct

EDIT: Here is a video of it in action - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IxkIIG_Q0E

Part 2 also shows off a bit more = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCH3sjt_zyc

Oh good... Diddy's still annoying.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Since I play one of the best Diddy Kong players on a daily basis (Nanerz) I can tell you that the match up is basically a bait and punish game. A lot of his move set is geared to our prioritize Sonic.

Diddy Kong's Favor
-Banana Forward Toss into Forward Smash is one of his best killing set ups. Avoid getting caught in it at all costs. If you know its coming you can sort of DI (I'm not calling it Vectoring or Vexxing) out of the final hit.
-Up Air kills at a low percent especially on characters like Sonic. If you aren't prepared for it you'll die around 70%.
-Diddy's tilts overall have more range than Sonic. Outside of our forward tilt.
-Side B is a nightmare and is his way to get around our shield cancels and baiting tactic. So be warned. That thing feels invincible even though it isn't.

Sonic's Favor
-Our Nair is probably one of the best nairs in the game. No Joke! You can pressure a shield like crazy. Nair Jab Nair Forward Tilt.
-Up Smash is a reliable kill move and can take him out of Side B and Up B. Do it.
-Sonic can still gimp Diddy out of his Up B easily. Spring is still our saving grace in that fact. Even during combos you can use Spring to escape.

I'll add more once I get the chance. Out all the match ups I've played Diddy is the only one that has consistently beat me. In NorCal Diddy has the number one spot. Next is Sonic. One more hurdle to go.

 

[Geoffrey Druyts]

I'm curious about Sonic Vs. Bowser.
Bowser seems strong as hell and is also fast.

 

[infomon]

Bowser's up-B eats sonic. Do not spindash into it. Do not touch it.

This matchup is annoying for both players, afaict. My wild guess: slightly in sonic's favour, but sooooo much more effort for sonic than for bowser.

 

[jordanm43444]

For the Bowser MU. BAIT EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING. Bat your spindashes and see what Bowser will do on reaction. Do this a few times to see if the bowser adapts as well, and see how long you have to punish his reactions.

 

[Glitchin]

Baiting Bowsers down b is good too. He's also so heavy he stays low enough on Uthrow to combo for almost any percentage.

 

[Camalange]

Random character thing not pertaining to any of the mentioned ones.
Zelda's UpB is so ridiculous now. Like... Oh. Played Nairo today and the first hit of UpB can combo vertically into the second hit... And the second hit can kill at like crazy low percents. I died at 80%, if not lower.

 

[XLR8TION]

Is it me or does it seem like you have to fight rosalina similar to fighting ICs in brawl?

 

[TehSharpie]

For the Bowser MU. BAIT EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING. Bat your spindashes and see what Bowser will do on reaction. Do this a few times to see if the bowser adapts as well, and see how long you have to punish his reactions.

Yeah, Bowser can rip through spindash like no joke. Best to only do it as a punish and stick to throwing out aerials and grabbing.

Is it me or does it seem like you have to fight rosalina similar to fighting ICs in brawl?

In a way, but the only difference being that Rosalina can still fight/recover without Luma so focusing everything into killing Luma first may not be a good idea.

If she throws Luma at you for any reason, try to get in for a grab.

 

[RedrappeR]

Bruh. ROB. What... i don't even.

Nearly everything he's got seems higher priority, or positive on shield. Should i be dodging more?

Also, it should be noted that most of these guys with projectiles-- I think theres a point in SIDE B when charged that it'll eat or cancel a projectile which is great because it helps you get in. I don't know the full properties on it and stuff. But any advice on ROB would be much appreciated.

 

[Kinzer]

Somebody wanted advice for Toon Link.

If you're reading this, good sir/madam: learn to approach from an angle. If you're gonna make a direct run for him, you're gonna wanna learn to powershield through boomerangs/arrows/bombs/melee attacks/etc. Otherwise, there's an optimal angle you can approach him from where he can't easily cover as well as he can directly above and in front of him. Sonic can go about this with ASC and using Spin Dash in the air to switch up your movement quickly and ever so slightly.

It's a bit different now that Sonic can't ASCSC anymore; but, one thing that still holds true from Brawl is that getting Toon Link in the air would be ideal here. Being below him is especially nice here since he only has Down Air (and if applicable, Bomb at hand) to cover his underside. You, being the fastest thing alive; can cover whatever ground he tries to land on, and your aerials are nothing to sneeze at either.

Keep juggling him, give him no breathing room to set-up his projectile game. It's a weird mix of being aggressive but being intelligent about how you do it. He has better range than you do, you won't be able to overpower a Toon Link that knows what he's doing; however, any player is susceptible to being baited. Force him to commit to a particular action, work around it, and get some chip damage in.

 

[Glitchin]

Bruh. ROB. What... i don't even.

Nearly everything he's got seems higher priority, or positive on shield. Should i be dodging more?

Also, it should be noted that most of these guys with projectiles-- I think theres a point in SIDE B when charged that it'll eat or cancel a projectile which is great because it helps you get in. I don't know the full properties on it and stuff. But any advice on ROB would be much appreciated.

I've been meaning to mention this actually. A fully charged spindash will shoot gordos back at DDD. Even if he shields it'll eat almost all of the shield with the gordo and spindash damage combined. I wasn't sure if It worked against others but I'm positive it works against gordos.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

A lot of things beat out gordo's and send them back, but Sonic has the bonus of following with the gordo to eat a ton of shield and do some damage. That's just the design of the gordo's though. I can't think of any other item that works the same way. What RedrappeR is reffering to is the invincibility frames side b has on the initial hop. You'll be able to go through most projectiles with it. I don't believe you can go through some multi hit projectiles like arc fire, but most can be safely jumped right through. Definitely something that every Sonic main will want to get their timing down on.

Edit: Also, I'ma just leave this here.

 

[Siccarius]

So I've been finding myself having A LOT of trouble against Pit/Dark Pit. All my approaches get caught up in his range and I have trouble punishing any smashes that are successfully dodged. Also I can't seem to combo aerials from an Up Throw as he breaks out of hit stun too quickly. Any suggestions?

 

[PsychoSy]

Any ideas on how to deal with a little mac? I keep having trouble on catching him to get him off stage and noticing how fast his dodges are...

 

[xN64x]

I don't know if it's just me but I'm having a really hard time with Mr.Game&Watch. Anyone have any advice on how to deal with him?

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Any ideas on how to deal with a little mac? I keep having trouble on catching him to get him off stage and noticing how fast his dodges are...

Let him dodge. Just play a strong spacing game until you have an opening. Most of little macs moves on the ground are really good, but he has no reliable option to land them. His backwards roll is really fast, but he has no approach. His grab range is bad and his throws aren't threatening at all. He's basically trying to accomplish the same thing as sonic but with less reliable options. Get him in the air and ground camp him. If they're counter happy, just abuse grabs and throws.

 

[Glitchin]

Also once he's off stage above like 30% if you can get a bair on him, it'll usually be enough to keep him away.

 

[The Pizza Guy]

I don't even have a 3ds, but I want to know what you people think Sonic's most difficult match ups and his easiest ones are.

 

[LocktheChest]

Can anyone help with Shiek? I'm having a lot of trouble with her, as when I go for side B/down B she uses needles, and she seems to have the advantage in melee range.

 

[TehSharpie]

Can anyone help with Shiek? I'm having a lot of trouble with her, as when I go for side B/down B she uses needles, and she seems to have the advantage in melee range.

You have to be really careful with using your spins. Try running while shielding any needles to get close. From there, you can try to bait a reaction that you can punish, preferably with a grab. You could also try Homing Attack but don't let yourself become predictable with it.

 

[PsychoSy]

I know I asked this before in another thread but does anyone know what to do against a link?

 

[Kinzer]

Almost the same thing I said about Toon Link still applies to the original.

The difference is he can move around his Dair. Also, it @#$%ing hurts.

 

[infomon]

As a Sonic, I'm terrified of fast little things that have high apparent priority. Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, ROB's stupid gyro, Ness, Diddy. Probably Pika.

Mid-range zoning characters? Much less of a problem.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hopefully it's just individual issues, but the amount of different characters here described as problematic is worrying. The most difficult matchup I've found so far is rosalina. No one else I've had enough experience against seems too bad. Sonic v Greninja is annoying as hell tho.

 

[Darkoness21]

What's the MU against Pac-Man? Having a bit of trouble getting through all his utilities and spacing game.

 

[infomon]

@ ROOOOY! not to worry. Sonic seems like a pretty evenly-balanced-matchup character, and I suspect the characters that I describe as problematic has more to do with infzy-counters than sonic-counters.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

I'll just say my hardest match ups have been Diddy Kong, Ness, and Sheik. I only say Sheik because I played the campiest Sheik in the history of Smash. I couldn't approach due to needle camping and when I did I are shield punishes. Overall Sheik is a great character that I think will give trouble regardless.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Looking at other character boards, everyone seems to be having issues with Rosaluma. It's just cause she's got tools that we've not really seen before, I think everyone will get her worked out soon. I think we started on Mario last time, that could be pretty much copy pasted.

On a seperate note, anyone seen the 'tier list' on event hubs? At first I saw sonic at #4 and was like ....
Then I saw Yoshi at #14 and lol'd

 

[infomon]

any tier list now is dumb lol

 

[ROOOOY!]

With the amount and depth of characters, any tier list within a year would be dumb

 

[SonicMario]

Anyone have tips for Sonic Vs. Lucario?

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Gimp Lucario fast. Don't let him rack up that percent or else you might as well just give him the game. That was the problem in Brawl. Lucario could take a beating and due to the lack of kill moves he would just overpower Sonic. In this game Sonic has the tools to get the kill at decent percents and still gimp. But be aware of Force Palm and its god like range once he gets to 100%. He can literally just down smash you twice and you'll die from being a light weight. HA is pretty good for dealing with any projectile camping Lucario tries to do since it's no longer has "omgwat" arc.

-Pivot Forward Tilt works great for spacing
-HA for punishing
-ASCC (Aerial Spin Charge Cancel) works wonders for mind games and tricking Lucario into reacting.
-Offstage gimping. Chase Lucario and don't be afraid to get the early kills. Sometimes Lucario players make mistakes.

It is one of my least favorite match ups but it isn't as bad as before.

 

[The Pizza Guy]

Dair meteor will help make gimping much easier.