Elemental attacks have different effects on certain characters? (Or just Pokemon)

[Endless Nightmares]

I noticed this while in t!mmy's character weight classes thread. SuperDoodleMan pointed out something very interesting about elemental attacks affecting PT's pokemon:

No offense, but horizontal kill power is way more accurate for figuring out weight. I've taken the liberty of using that japanese scan at brawlcentral, which used Mario's f-smash from the center of FD, and reorganized them within the weight tiers. Secret characters, having been omitted from the scan's test, are placed at the end of each tier, since it's unknown (but relatively easily found out) where they really rank within that tier.

Very Heavy (18%)
Bowser (Koopa)
Donkey Kong
Dedede, King

Heavy (17%)
Samus
Charizard

Ganondorf
Snake

Medium-Heavy (16%)
Yoshi
Wario
Ike
Link

R.O.B.
Captain Falcon
Wolf

Medium (15%)
Mario

Lucario
Luigi
Ivysaur
Sonic

Medium-Light (14%)
Ice Climber
Pit
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Peach

Toon Link
Ness

Light-Weight (13%)
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik

Marth

Very Light-Weight (12%)
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Pikachu
Meta Knight
Fox

Falco
Squirtle

Feather-Weight (11% or less)
(11%) Mr. Game & Watch
( 9% ) Jigglypuff (Purin)

As you may have noticed, Squirtle and Ivysaur's placings are considered unknown. That's because the brawlcentral scan listed them two tiers heavier and three tiers lighter, respectively, than t!MmY's list. Obviously their experiment was tainted by using an elemental attack, which Squirtle and Ivysaur react to differently.

The elemental attack being Mario's fsmash (fire). IIRC (I haven't played Pokemon since '99 >_>), in Pokemon Water counters Fire and Fire counters Grass, which is why Squirtle didn't fly as far and Ivysaur flew much farther.

I wonder if there are more elemental attack effects or if it's just the pokemon? Perhaps some characters could have an advantage over others based on the element type of their moves? Especially within the three of PT's Pokemon, as Fire > Grass > Water > Fire > Grass etc.

Someone who has Brawl should test this out! Maybe we can get a little research going and learn more about this

EDIT: I found a Pokemon Battle chart to give people ideas on things to experiment with:

EDIT: For anyone who wants to try, I'd suggest going to training mode since the stale-move negation doesn't exist there.

 

[slimpyman]

haha i dont have the game. but it definitely looks like an issue of elemental proportions! haha mario maybe is maybe weak to squirtle, or maybe squirtle is resistant to mario. pit is probably weak to fire. haha whatever, its cool

 

[Metal_Doc]

If this is true then falco is going to be getting ***** by pikachu >.<

 

[Lupo Aro]

If this is true then falco is going to be getting ***** by pikachu >.<

But he can't fly.

 

[Juicy]

yea that be cool if its true, but i doubt sakurai would do anything like that. who knows though, he's crazy(ina good way)

 

[JUMPING_YOSHI]

Nice idea,this could be interesting.

 

[Chiroz]

I believe this will be only for Pokemons, and just PT's pokemons.

PT mirror matches are going to be switch-whored.

Also if someone mains a Pokemon (As in Ivysaur), its going to be really annoying when the other person chooses Charizard.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

But he can't fly.

Neither should a doduo but that doesn't change his type to not being flying

 

[Fanewgie]

Neither should a doduo but that doesn't change his type to not being flying

Pokémon logic is such an awesome thing. It makes me miss playing D/P.

 

[t!MmY]

I noticed this back with the Brawlcentral scan of the magazine's weight chart. Squirtle should not have been heavier than Pit.

But now that I look back on it, I also notice Ice Climbers are listed on the same magazine scan as heavier than they should be. Could they be resilient to Fire attacks akin to Squirtle?

 

[thecatinthehat]

I'm curious as to how water works in the game. The previous games only had fire and electricity, electricity with more stun time.

 

[Kittah4]

I dont think water has an elemental damage indicator, as FLUDD and Watergun do no damage and we've seen no Water Attack + stickers. Fire has flames, ice has occasional freezing, electricty has arcs of bolts, poison has purple clouds, and aura (is this an element? fighting?) has blue sparks/fire.

Ice Climbers being able to resist fire would be funny, you'd think they'd be weak to it.

 

[red6170]

this does sound interesting

 

[joenopride]

I can't imagine Squirtle being heavier than Ivysaur, so I imagine there is some sort of elemental shenanigans going on.

 

[Lupo Aro]

Neither should a doduo but that doesn't change his type to not being flying

Except Doduo can fly, defying all logic.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Except Doduo can fly, defying all logic.

It shouldn't, I know it can learn fly

Technically Falco CAN fly as well

 

[t!MmY]

Water *does* have an elemental modifier. Squirtle has plenty of water-based attacks, which might have an elemental modifier attached. But the one I've seen specifically with water is when Pikmin fall into it. Red and Yellow Pikmin die when "swimming" while the blue ones (and purple?) stay alive. Thus there's a trigger associated with water in at least one instance.

 

[munsif]

I think that ivysaur is lighter than squirtle because Saquari gave him such powerful moves

 

[Zek]

This is not conclusive. The testing methods between these two were completely unrelated. Don't get ahead of yourselves.

It's very simple, someone just has to test it. Take Squirtle and Ivysaur. First compare their weight with Mario's forward smash, and then do it with, say, Ike's forward smash. See if the results are different.

 

[Aninymouse]

Saquari sounds like a cool dude eh doesn't afraid of anything.

(lol)

Really, since no other characters besides PT has Grass attacks (and only Mario has Fludd, which does no damage anyway), I only see this effecting characters with Fire properties (a lot).

Mario
Zamus
Zelda
Samus
Fox
Falco
Falcon
Bowser
Charizard
Game & Watch
Ike
Link
Lucas
Ness
Luigi
Pikmin & Olimar
Snake
...maybe Toon Link


Sheesh.

 

[TaurToph]

Actually, Dodrio is flying and learns fly because jumps VERY high. VERRRYYY high. They can jump a building high and a soccer camp far. It's also a very fast pokémon so it can take you anywhere in the map as fast as a pidgeot, just jumping and running.

He also got very large and fit legs so it makes sense to be weak to rock and eletric, and the jumps make it resistent to fighting.

Read it in some pokemon fansite.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Actually, Dodrio is flying and learns fly because jumps VERY high. VERRRYYY high. They can jump a building high and a soccer camp far. It's also a very fast pokémon so it can take you anywhere in the map as fast as a pidgeot, just jumping and running.

He also got very large and fit legs so it makes sense to be weak to rock and eletric, and the jumps make it resistent to fighting.

Read it in some pokemon fansite.

Which isn't the definition of Flying

 

[deebz435]

Would this also hold true for Lucario vs Jigglypuff? Fighting is strong against Normal. For that matter Pickachu should have an advantage over Squirtle and Charizard, Charizard should have an advantage over Lucario and Ivysaur, Squirtle should be strong against Charizard, and Ivysaur should be strong against Squirtle. I don't know this is all true, but if that's the case it should work out this way. I may just be over thinking this however, cause there may not be an elemental advantage between pokemon in this game.

 

[Lechteron]

Close enough for Pokemon work.

 

[MysticKenji]

Would this also hold true for Lucario vs Jigglypuff? Fighting is strong against Normal. For that matter Pickachu should have an advantage over Squirtle and Charizard, Charizard should have an advantage over Lucario and Ivysaur, Squirtle should be strong against Charizard, and Ivysaur should be strong against Squirtle. I don't know this is all true, but if that's the case it should work out this way. I may just be over thinking this however, cause there may not be an elemental advantage between pokemon in this game.

Since this is a Fighting game, wouldn't Jiggs be weak against everyone?

 

[0RLY]

Haha, everyone get your DS out and play some pokemon if you want to get good at brawl XD

 

[deebz435]

Since this is a Fighting game, wouldn't Jiggs be weak against everyone?

Technically you would be correct, but that would go the same for Lucario. I'm not sure on this one.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Since this is a Fighting game, wouldn't Jiggs be weak against everyone?

Not all punches are fighting attacks,

Mega Punch, Fire Punch, and Ice Punch for a few examples

 

[deebz435]

Not all punches are fighting attacks,

Mega Punch, Fire Punch, and Ice Punch for a few examples

Don't forget kicks like mega kick and blaze kick.

 

[brawlmaniac]

Yeah I saw this on the same weight thread yesterday. Didn't pay much attention to it though- it's definitely pretty cool.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Here's what Card had to say...

Ok umm... I posted it in my thread but I suppose I'll post it here too and eventually add it to my guide once it becomes crystal clear.


Well I tried it out and... euh
It seems like Elemental Weakness actually DOES come into play with Knockback.

Pokemon Type Charting:
Squirtle (Water)
2x: Grass, Electric
1x: Normal, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Steel, Fire, Water, Ice

Ivysaur (Grass / Poison)
2x: Flying, Fire, Psychic, Ice
1x: Normal, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Steel, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Fighting, Water, Electric
1/4x: Grass

Charizard (Fire / Flying)
4x: Rock
2x: Water, Electric
1x: Normal, Flying, Poison, Ghost, Psychic, Ice, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Fighting, Steel, Fire
1/4x: Bug, Grass
Immune: Ground



Here is some of test data;
Fire Test 1:
275% Squirtle + PK Fire (Lucas) = Squirtle Survives
275% Ivysaur + PK Fire (Lucas) = Ivysaur Dies
275% Charizard + PK Fire (Lucas) = Charizard Survives (But is that because he is heavy or because he is resistant?)
Results: Ivysaur dies quicker than Squirtle, even though he is heavier. Charizard survives, but unsure whether it is because he is the heaviest or because he is resistant.

Fire Test 2:
100% Squirtle + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Squirtle Survive
100% Ivysaur + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Ivysaur Death
100% Charizard + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Charizard Survive
Results: Ivysaur seems to gain more knockback due to fire, and once again we cannot tell if Charizard survives because of his weight or his resistance.

Fire Test 3:
115% Squirtle + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Squirtle Survive
115% Ivysaur + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Ivysaur Death
115% Charizard + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Charizard Survive
Results: Once again, Ivysaur dies before Squirtle to a fire based attack.

Water Test 1:
100% Squirtle + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Squirtle is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
100% Ivysaur + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Ivysaur is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
100% Charizard + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Charizard is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
Results: No one is weak/resistant to Water, they all get pushed the same distance.

Water Test 2:
90% Squirtle + Squirtle Up-Smash = Squirtle Death
90% Ivysaur + Squirtle Up-Smash = Ivysaur Survive
90% Charizard + Squirtle Up-Smash = Charizard Death
Results: Now things are getting interesting. Charizard dies to a Water based attack and Ivysaur survives. It looks like Charizard does get more knockback by water-based attacks.

Electricity Test 1:
145% Squirtle + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Squirtle Death
145% Ivysaur + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Ivysaur barely survive
145% Charizard + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Charizard barely survive
Results: Once again, Squirtle does die quicker but is that not because he is lighter? Inconclusive

Electricity Test 2:
130% Squirtle + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Squirtle Death
130% Ivysaur + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Ivysaur Survive
130% Charizard + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Charizard Survive
Results: Squirtle dies the fastest, but once again is that because he is the lightest?

Ice Test 1:
180% Squirtle + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Squirtle Death
180% Ivysaur + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Ivysaur Survive
180% Charizard + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Charizard Survive
Results: What the heck? Ivysaur is supposed to be weak to ICE, yet Squirtle dies first.

Psychic Test 1
115% Squirtle + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Squirtle Death
115% Ivysaur + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Ivysaur Survive
115% Charizard + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Charizard Survive
Results: Once again, Ivysaur who should be weak to Psychic based attacks survives before Squirtle.


I guess I could try some more tests... got any suggestions?

Very interesting. I dunno if Ness' Bthrow can count as a Psychic move, though >.>

 

[Toomai]

Here's an idea: Use the see-saw platforms in Rainbow Cruise. (If a stage I don't know about has scales, even better!) Get weight readings that way.

Red and Yellow Pikmin die when "swimming" while the blue ones (and purple?) stay alive.

If Purple Pikmin can swim in Brawl I will laugh it up.

 

[Saor Gael]

I think the purple Pikmin just survive longer because they have more health.

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

Card has some odd experiments, apparently. Here's what I'd do:

Use three chars, the attacker, the victim, and a control char of similar weight to the victim, who doesn't have any resistances or weaknesses.

Have attacker kill control with some elemental attack off the side, making certain he starts from the same spot every time. Note the damage required for a KO.

Have attacker kill victim under the exact same circumstances. Note the damage.

Repeat both with a non-elemental attack (or a different element) and note the damages. The two attacks should be as close in power as possible, to minimize skewing due to variable knockback scaling.

If there's an elemental difference, it should be pretty obvious. For instance, assuming the famitsu info is correct:

Attacker = Mario
Victim = Ivysaur
Control = Mario

F-SMASH
Ivysaur 90
Mario 103

D-SMASH
Ivysaur = ???
Mario = 136

This is all from the middle of FD, fully charged. Fill in that one blank, and we will know for sure how real this is. Double check the rest of the percents for added certainty. If there are really scales that can measure weight somewhere, a comprehensive weight list would be wonderful.

I doubt that this will include "fighting" but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to Castlevania's cut/pierce/bludgeon attack types is in effect. Why should only the pokemon get all the fun? Characters like Marth or Meta Knight might have trouble against someone resistant to swords.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it ends with fire/water/electric. Much more testing needed. I so wish I had this game