Duality Ruleset Concept, and Discussion. (OVER 100 CUSTOMS BANNED)

[Seiniyta]

I feel like a blanket ban on all custom UpBs is unnecessary, but if this becomes the one way to get customs played, I'll support it.

Also, I have no opinion on Gunner or Swordfighter's default UpB's, but Brawler's is trash and should be excluded from that rule.


Unfortunately, while it removes some "deadly" combinations (in quotes because literally every one of those lost at EVO), it also prevents a lot of characters who currently appear to need such combinations from fighting on even standing. A Villager can still plank but I have to pick either Iai or Crescent as Marth? Sheik's still Sheik but Doc can only pick one of his 3-4 useful abilities?

Again, I'd support it if it's literally the only way to convince people to keep customs permanently, but it's nonsensically inhibitive, especially in a meta where "top" characters benefit from exactly one custom (or none), and lower characters need 2-4 to be decent.

Basically, I see this as a push to remove most of the extra learning involved with practicing for customs. Which is something almost every high-level player or commentator has expressed (in my opinion, unwarranted) concern over.

Sure, it definitly sucks for some characters. And in an ideal world having every character have the option to use all their moves at once is great. But you could see it as a start of a long process of making people ease into Custom moves.

Later down the line we can always change it to include more. I feel like, for now this is the most elegant and most realistic option (imo).

 

[Goesasu]

Horrible idea. You dont ban non guilty moves to compensate for other not proven guilty moves, you just dont.

Innocent until proven guilty, please follow this premise not only while smashing but for your personal life. Do not neglect centuries of rational thinking.

 

[DunnoBro]

1-custom still needs a banlist in place, and hinders the good customs. It can work, but it's more crippling than an en masse banlist imo

Innocent until proven guilty, please follow this premise not only while smashing but for your personal life. Do not neglect centuries of rational thinking.

They aren't really "Guilty" though. I'd consider this them being more put in limbo or "interrogation"
Like stated, this is more of a test meta.

 

[FirewaterDM]

I feel like this could be a good test meta but I don't think it solves the problem. I think the largest problem with why people hate customs (other than setup, which is the 100% biggest and most important hurdle imo) is that people complain about the silly stuff instead of adapting to it- there weren't that many customs in Evo top 8, and the top players still win/do well whether Kong Cylone or Villager Up B/Trip Sapling.

Furthermore the Up-B bans fix some issues, not others. For example, Rosaluma, Pikachu, Luigi all would not care if they were stuck with the normal Up B. People complain about other specials (and in Luigi's case I don't get why it's an issue, Luigi is kinda rare to take customs anyway in my experience), and neither character care, while other characters who's up b's are better for them get shafted (like MIi's)

I think a better solution could be to not have the designated sets for Customs, and let people build their own sets. There's obviously some things that could be done to make this easier like keeping 3-5 presets of the most common sets, but it gives people options if they prefer less common setups (this however returns the problem of that getting customs, and having them on every WiiU is the largest issue for why customs should be eliminated). I think letting people choose their custom sets help in terms of letting characters be changed, and could create the same restrictions as a CP or even general ban period, so you could ban individual custom moves in a set, instead of as a whole. I think it creates the same purpose, because it not only forces people to learn their characters and custom stuff, it also can keep certain issues in check- for example, DK's more than likely sent back to low tier if you ban out cyclone, Villager/Sonic aren't as hard to get in on if they can't use Trip Seed/Hammer Spin Dash, Pika can't kill w/o HSB, etc. I think adding custom bans in individual sets + allowing people to build sets not only allows the characters who need customs to be usable to still have them, but it also forces the players who do rely on the "OP" customs and not their skill to get better on their own merits. If you only win with custom DK because of wind-kong, then you are forced to get better because in that ruleset you can't rely on your crutch.

I still think it needs to be an all or none approach ( I don't get how banning customs or even character teams do anything but reward people who don't learn parts of the game, but I think allowing custom bans in sets might be a better compromise?)

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I had made a list of "controversial" customs in a previous thread, so I'll post it again with a few changes.

Spoiler

: Luma Warp, Shooting Star Bit
: Kong Cyclone
: Rocketbarrel Attack
: Penetrating Needles, Gravity Grenade
: Dark Fists
: Super Speed, Lightweight
: Twisting Fox
: Thunder Wave, Heavy Skull Bash
: Dragon Rush
: Snaring Aura Sphere (Doubles only)
: Lightning Kick
: Extreme Balloon Trip, Timber Counter
: Jumbo Hoop
: Soaring Tornado
: Hammer Spin Dash
: Helicopter Kick

 

[Scarlet Jile]

So, by leaving low-tier characters crippled and letting high-tier characters pick the customs that benefit them enormously (except Fox I guess?), what exactly are we trying to accomplish?

I guess I misunderstood the implications for "banning moves too good in doubles." So you are going to ban moves in 1v1 that are too good in doubles? Or are you going to ban only in doubles?

 

[Thinkaman]

Are we banning Needle Storm, Gravitational Pull, Oil Panic, Judgement, and Rest?

These are far and away the five jankiest special moves in the game.

We should probably be talking about Waft and Vanish too.

 

[Pyr]

Are we banning Needle Storm, Gravitational Pull, Oil Panic, Judgement, and Rest?

These are far and away the five jankiest special moves in the game.

We should probably be talking about Waft and Vanish too.

Good luck banning 1111, which is universally select-able regardless of current sets. Unless you're going to tell people you can't play a default because one of the 1s are banned. I want to see that just to see attendance drop (and to laugh at leaping rest's hilarious properties, because wakie wakie is worthless).

 

[Thinkaman]

To be extra clear, I am not proposing this as a suggested solution.

 

[Piford]

I feel like banning all custom up-specials could've worked if and only if they were the only custom ban. Once you start a ban list to go along with it, it feels unnecessary since we already have to debate which customs are banned. You'd just be adding to the problems as a lot of people would find the need to ban a lot of the good custom moves that just happen to be up-specials. I'm pretty sure more people would agree to ban some of the somewhat controversial moves like Jumbo Hoop or Dark Fist rather than ban all up-specials.

Also I just want to clarify something as I see a lot of people messing it up. Thunder Wave itself does not chain infinitely. It will eventually allow you to tech or force to end the chain since the stage is gone, whichever comes first. You need Meteor Quick Attack to allow it become an infinite. If you want to ban Thunder Wave because it can chain into itself, then say that not that it's an infinite.

 

[Raijinken]

I feel like banning all custom up-specials could've worked if and only if they were the only custom ban. Once you start a ban list to go along with it, it feels unnecessary since we already have to debate which customs are banned. You'd just be adding to the problems as a lot of people would find the need to ban a lot of the good custom moves that just happen to be up-specials. I'm pretty sure more people would agree to ban some of the somewhat controversial moves like Jumbo Hoop or Dark Fist rather than ban all up-specials.

Also I just want to clarify something as I see a lot of people messing it up. Thunder Wave itself does not chain infinitely. It will eventually allow you to tech or force to end the chain since the stage is gone, whichever comes first. You need Meteor Quick Attack to allow it become an infinite. If you want to ban Thunder Wave because it can chain into itself, then say that not that it's an infinite.

Even then, banning custom upBs doesn't address the concern that some others have of unequal benefit. It amounts to banning one irritating strategy (Villager and Sonic camping) and blanket-banning other characters' (i.e. Marth and Lucina) vital tools for anything approaching viability.

Good luck banning 1111, which is universally select-able regardless of current sets. Unless you're going to tell people you can't play a default because one of the 1s are banned. I want to see that just to see attendance drop (and to laugh at leaping rest's hilarious properties, because wakie wakie is worthless).

His point is real, though. There isn't a custom move in the game as janky as the moves he listed. If the TO requires Sheik players to use 3-1-1-1 so that Special bans are applied fairly (after all, if DK should lose his best special, Sheik should, too), they can put up or drive further for a ruleset that cares less for balance.

 

[Pyr]

His point is real, though. There isn't a custom move in the game as janky as the moves he listed. If the TO requires Sheik players to use 3-1-1-1 so that Special bans are applied fairly (after all, if DK should lose his best special, Sheik should, too), they can put up or drive further for a ruleset that cares less for balance.

He said it wasn't an actual solution, but I'll bite:

Congrats on losing the large chunk of people that attend custom tournies and use defaults anyway. That, and having a character lose a neutral special all because another character lost a non-neutral one, is terrible logic. Using your logic, though, anyone who loses 1111 would have to get 11 total sets to compensate. Oh, that's not possible? It's unfair! Blah blah blah, logistics and stuff people will never agree on. The TO will stop doing something that stupid when they can't get enough attendance to cover venue and operation fees.

And to say Rest is as Janky as needles... Lol. Horrible statement to end a horrible thought process. Banning all up-Bs because we're lazy is the exact opposite of fair as well.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Are we banning Needle Storm, Gravitational Pull, Oil Panic, Judgement, and Rest?

These are far and away the five jankiest special moves in the game.

We should probably be talking about Waft and Vanish too.

How could you forget about Quick Attack, Monkey Flip, and Luigi Cyclone?

I'm ashamed at you, Thinkaman.

 

[Balgorxz]

guys, you need to understand they will patch problematics customs ONLY and ONLY if japan is willing to play with them as long as they stick to their ultra conservative ruleset, customs wills never be competitively patched.
all the patches in the game have been japan focused, even those tiers list japan releases once in a while are always the characters that get buffed or nerfed depending on their lists, we are nothing more than 5% of the relevant data that the devs use to patch the game, we get nothing making guesses about this, they only way we can go through this is actually talking with the japanese community.

this have been true since the greninja nerf in 1.00 and the double diddy nerf, also one of the reasons sonic is always getting touched since he was considered top tier in japan with sheik and diddy before 1.08.

 

[thehard]

I wonder how many players would object to Miis and Palutena getting their customs standardized before we delve into the other characters?

DLC fighters setting the standard of "not everyone gets customs", the fact that all their customs are unlocked from the get-go, and the pretty obvious character design centered around their customs makes their inclusion in any ruleset almost inarguable.

If we're going to head into Arbitrary Town, it seems like a nice starting point.

Interesting side note: Sumabato 4 had Miis fully legal except for Brawler who was allowed only one custom per set.

 

[Raijinken]

guys, you need to understand they will patch problematics customs ONLY and ONLY if japan is willing to play with them as long as they stick to their ultra conservative ruleset, customs wills never be competitively patched.
all the patches in the game have been japan focused, even those tiers list japan releases once in a while are always the characters that get buffed or nerfed depending on their lists, we are nothing more than 5% of the relevant data that the devs use to patch the game, we get nothing making guesses about this, they only way we can go through this is actually talking with the japanese community.

this have been true since the greninja nerf in 1.00 and the double diddy nerf, also one of the reasons sonic is always getting touched since he was considered top tier in japan with sheik and diddy before 1.08.

The Double-Diddy nerf obviously wasn't overkill since he still won EVO. Sonic's also always been considered high-or-better tier here, too.

In fact, most of the tier disagreement between regions is only relevant once you get out of high tier and into mid and lower.

 

[Kofu]

Are we banning Needle Storm, Gravitational Pull, Oil Panic, Judgement, and Rest?

These are far and away the five jankiest special moves in the game.

We should probably be talking about Waft and Vanish too.

I guess it's something of an honor for your character two have two super silly default specials, though Oil Panic is only especially silly in teams (the collection endlag makes it risky against a lot of attacks).

Can't really argue about Judge, though.

 

[Unknownkid]

guys, you need to understand they will patch problematics customs ONLY and ONLY if japan is willing to play with them as long as they stick to their ultra conservative ruleset, customs wills never be competitively patched.
all the patches in the game have been japan focused, even those tiers list japan releases once in a while are always the characters that get buffed or nerfed depending on their lists, we are nothing more than 5% of the relevant data that the devs use to patch the game, we get nothing making guesses about this, they only way we can go through this is actually talking with the japanese community.

this have been true since the greninja nerf in 1.00 and the double diddy nerf, also one of the reasons sonic is always getting touched since he was considered top tier in japan with sheik and diddy before 1.08.

I didn't know that Japanese players actually unlock and abused Dragon Rush before it was nerfed. You learn something new everyday.

 

[Tito Maas]

You guys sure are naming a lot of customs to be banned... and I don't even use any of those characters.

But about the single custom ban, what about characters who, well, only have one good custom like Dark Pit's Guiding Bow or Ness's PK Vacuum? What would be the point of using customs for those characters?

 

[neohopeSTF]

Why did you choose Up Specials? Only 2 that are huge problems (argueable) are Kong Cyclone and Extreme Ballon Trip (imo). Seems kind of arbitrary that its up specials when other specials have "extreme" customs aswell.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why did you choose Up Specials? Only 2 that are huge problems (argueable) are Kong Cyclone and Extreme Ballon Trip (imo). Seems kind of arbitrary that its up specials when other specials have "extreme" customs aswell.

Helicopter Kick, Jumbo Hoop, Twisting Fox, Rocketbarrel Attack, Dark Fists.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Helicopter Kick, Jumbo Hoop, Twisting Fox, Rocketbarrel Attack, Dark Fists.

Ok forgot about some of those. But some of those aren't as bad as the others. Helicopter Kick is the only one I would put in the tier of wind kong and extreme balloon trip.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Ultimately, I'm not opposed to drastic measures and I like that @ DunnoBro is trying to get **** done before it starts to feel like the moment has passed. I think the right time to be making serious revisions is now.

That said, I don't think this proposed solution is precisely the correct one (not that Dunno implied that it was). Now that so much time (and EVO) has passed and there is no imminent character release slated, we can start thinking seriously about tier lists with customs both off and on. The next step is to get a consensus on the optimal level of viability. Once we narrow it down, we can look at every character above this point on the tier list and reasonably say, "There is no reason to give these characters direct move upgrades." That might mean taking away a custom move from a set, which puts them back below the threshold. Regrettable, but better than the alternative to my mind.

Separate from balance, we need to agree on moves that unnecessarily (and avoidably) deteriorate the quality of the experience for everyone overall. This may be a hard discussion, but it needs to happen. This may be where moves like Exploding Balloons don't make the cut, even if they fall below a certain "power" threshold. Once the sets are made, there is no barrier to entry for understanding the rules any more than there already was. Either a set is available or it isn't. If you want to understand why, investigation and research are optional. That said, despite all my jests to the contrary, we definitely don't want to eliminate any default moves, because that does add a barrier of entry. So we don't have to ban Sonic.

 

[Illuminose]

I don't really understand the point of tier-based distinctions when we'd have to make a tier list in the first place. Let's face facts, we don't know enough about the game to make an accurate tier list. Sure we know some general placings, but it's all arbitrary. Furthermore, some characters that would be lower on said tier list get more benefits than others. If you want to work within the customs system, what exactly is wrong with banning specific problematic moves?

 

[neohopeSTF]

I don't really understand the point of tier-based distinctions when we'd have to make a tier list in the first place. Let's face facts, we don't know enough about the game to make an accurate tier list. Sure we know some general placings, but it's all arbitrary. Furthermore, some characters that would be lower on said tier list get more benefits than others. If you want to work within the customs system, what exactly is wrong with banning specific problematic moves?

I agree. Its hard to decide on tiers when characters are changing every other month.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yes, it is hard. But barring any unlikely changes to the balance of custom moves, it's kind of like ripping off a Band-Aid. One and done, get the pain over with early and move on.

If there are changes to balance in the future, well, we are very complex organisms with an incredible capacity for adaptation. We can find a solution. It's about time for a tier-list to start forming, anyway. It doesn't have to be perfect, but we do need to convey where characters stand on a spectrum of viability. Once we've done that (and we will--it is already under way in several forms), we can point to concrete evidence and say, "Here. This is the reason why you don't get Heavy Skull Bash." And that, I think, will be important.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Yes, it is hard. But barring any unlikely changes to the balance of custom moves, it's kind of like ripping off a Band-Aid. One and done, get the pain over with early and move on.

If there are changes to balance in the future, well, we are very complex organisms with an incredible capacity for adaptation. We can find a solution. It's about time for a tier-list to start forming, anyway. It doesn't have to be perfect, but we do need to convey where characters stand on a spectrum of viability. Once we've done that (and we will--it is already under way in several forms), we can point to concrete evidence and say, "Here. This is the reason why you don't get Heavy Skull Bash." And that, I think, will be important.

I'd say a tier list should start once all the characters are out. We still have at the very least one more character that will be DLC. You could say the adaptation argument but it doesn't make sense to start when we don't even have all the characters.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

it doesn't make sense to start when we don't even have all the characters.

That's a weird opinion. I mean, you are welcome to it, but it's weird as hell to me.

That's sort of like saying we shouldn't publish a book about all the presidents because we haven't had all the presidents yet. If there are changes, we can work them in. Lists are transient by nature. Even once all the characters are out, we will have countless refinements over the years.

 

[neohopeSTF]

That's a weird opinion. I mean, you are welcome to it, but it's weird as hell to me.

That's sort of like saying we shouldn't publish a book about all the presidents because we haven't had all the presidents yet. If there are changes, we can work them in. Lists are transient by nature. Even once all the characters are out, we will have countless refinements over the years.

I'm just thinking why go through the trouble of it when it will change like every 2 months.