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And Link.Nah, but i'm pretty sure Sakurai knew about Melee's Tier List. That would explain how all the Top and High Tiers got nerfed and are now Middle or Bottom Tiers in Brawl, except for Marth and Falco.
Actually, probably not. Ganondorf at first (to me anyway) seemed like he'd be a higher tier. He hits hard, isnt too terible to control, and is somewhat difficult to master. After playing him for a few days i realised that he had virtually no combo potential and his recovery blew donkey ballz. First impressions are usually wrong ive noticed. Snake and MK when i first saw them i thought they were ********..........................guess im ******** for thinking so lolMaybe for some characters
Im sure he new Ganandorf would be in a low tier.
How was Link a beast in 4 player Melee matches?Smash Bros is designed as a 4 player fighting game, but competitive player is only two players, and they also remove a lot of the games content. The teir in Smash are created a good deal by bottle necking the game. When looking at characters, they probably looked at it in a 4vs way (this is why Link was nerfed, a was very powerful in 4vs).
The developers probably had no idea who would break though as that was not the focus of development.
Powerful all around, good projectiles, UP B was an amazing sweep and air attack, easy to use forward smash. The only thing that he sucked at was his up Smash.How was Link a beast in 4 player Melee matches?
Yeah, but since smash is a party game, they probably thought that since meta has a bad FS (well not as good as others), really light (DI and Momentum cancelling wouldnt be used in casual), and no projectile would balence his absurd priority, recovery, etc.They deffinatly knew MetaKnight would become on of the better characters.
Marth is just high tier in brawl because of his character style (Fast, Good spacing, Good priority, good grab, low lag), and there seems to be not much you can do about that. However, i believe Falco claims a high tier due to his easy to use and moderately quick playstyle along with a few broken assets.Nah, but i'm pretty sure Sakurai knew about Melee's Tier List. That would explain how all the Top and High Tiers got nerfed and are now Middle or Bottom Tiers in Brawl, except for Marth and Falco.
Assuming they did balance the game all that much, how can they go about balancing the game with items on. It'd be one thing if you had select items that were on the stage at the beginning like in FPS games, but the chance of X item appearing or not appearing is totally random. How do you go about balancing a game when an aspect of the game is subject to serendipity with no one having control of it during the match?Absolutly not. It is impossible for them to have predicted how competitive smash would turn out. This game is designed to be played with items, not necessarily all 4 fighters, but the general idea is there. That is why characters play the way they do: Ganondorf sucks, but he has a multitude of techniques that easily make him one of the better characters with items on. Likewise, Meta Knight is the best character in the game, but his Final Smash is near worthless and from what I have seen there really isn't much he can do with items that other characters can't do better.
So, in a sense, the game is balanced to a certain extent, but not for competitive play. I doubt they had competitive players in mind when designing Brawl, especially considering the drastic changes made to make the game not competitive.
I agree, if the game was made for FFA's with items, why did they include final destination? They obviously know of the competitive scene, though I doubt it is their priority when they make the game.Also, I really doubt that the game was made for FFA. Just because they had items doesn't mean they planned everything around using them. Same goes for some stages and modes.
I just looked on Snake's page on the Dojo and nothing is said there. You might have seen it somewhere else.Also, I remember reading I think on Smash Dojo that Snake is one of the better chars, so they obviously knew that.
The random factor would be irrelevant to that kind of discussion as it would have no effect on balance, just luck. You'd probably look at them by scenario. How would this character handle with this, or another with that.Assuming they did balance the game all that much, how can they go about balancing the game with items on. It'd be one thing if you had select items that were on the stage at the beginning like in FPS games, but the chance of X item appearing or not appearing is totally random. How do you go about balancing a game when an aspect of the game is subject to serendipity with no one having control of it during the match?
That's what I'd do which is why I'd just balance them with the items off since the randomness would/should be irrelevant to the character's moveset. Anyway, when you ask as to how would X character handle a certain situtation, are you saying that they would have an answer for any given situation, or am I misinterpreting.The random factor would be irrelevant to that kind of discussion as it would have no effect on balance, just luck. You'd probably look at them by scenario. How would this character handle with this, or another with that.
No, they'd still balance them with items, they would just ignore the fact that they spawn randomly.That's what I'd do which is why I'd just balance them with the items off since the randomness would/should be irrelevant to the character's moveset. Anyway, when you ask as to how would X character handle a certain situtation, are you saying that they would have an answer for any given situation, or am I misinterpreting.
AgreedYeah, but since smash is a party game, they probably thought that since meta has a bad FS (well not as good as others), really light (DI and Momentum cancelling wouldnt be used in casual), and no projectile would balence his absurd priority, recovery, etc.
I mean, MK is still good with items on, but the gap is shortened quite a bit. They probably thought he was ok.
Actually releasing a patch for a game ran off a disc would be impossible. It would require a lot of hassles to get everyone the right patch and installed right since the game is not on the harddrive like PC games are. Look at B+, i bet right now some idiot with Beta is trying to find out why he cant play with his friend on the internet anymore cuz his friend went to Official.No they were not thinking of competitive aspects, otherwise they would be making patches or whatever. That's why we have MK's trouncing Ganon's left and right.
Yea a team that is dedicated to constantly upgrading a code to a game is quite expensive. Look at any MMO for that matter. Sure, they seem to be getting millions per month (i.e. WoW) but i betcha atleast half of that goes to the team's pay and half or so of whats left to upkeep/advertisement.That raises the question of what they had in mind when it came to balancing.
Anyway, patches wouldn't happen. It'd be expensive to maintain a team to make updates to the code. Think of what it's already like with Brawl+. To me, it's better to make update games where the balancing is fixed, maybe add a new mechanic or simplify a pre-existing one, some new stages and music, and a character or two that was heavily requested but couldn't make it in the first time.
Maybe it's just me, but everyone I know says 4 player is a mess. You just can't concentrate like you can in 1 on 1. 2 on 2 isn't bad if you practice with your partner - you learn how they play, where to avoid them and where they'll need help. But 4 player free for alls throw skill out the window.Smash Bros is designed as a 4 player fighting game, but competitive player is only two players, and they also remove a lot of the games content. The teir in Smash are created a good deal by bottle necking the game. When looking at characters, they probably looked at it in a 4vs way (this is why Link was nerfed, a was very powerful in 4vs).
The developers probably had no idea who would break though as that was not the focus of development.
How do you go about ignoring them when people would more than likely use them if they're there? If they have to take away the random item variable out anyway when balancing, just don't have them on while balancing characters in every match.No, they'd still balance them with items, they would just ignore the fact that they spawn randomly.
Link has been a good 4vs character in the last two games.None of the smash games were made for competitive play, although looking at how each game changes shows they do pay some attention to it by nerfing Sheik and Fox while continuing to make Link low tier.
But for the most part, they don't decide who is going to be the best character.
It's a different game altogether. You have to know how to concentrate on your opponents and what's going on (the stages and the items). It's defiantly skill based, but the skills needed in the environment are different then those most competitively minded players have.Maybe it's just me, but everyone I know says 4 player is a mess. You just can't concentrate like you can in 1 on 1. 2 on 2 isn't bad if you practice with your partner - you learn how they play, where to avoid them and where they'll need help. But 4 player free for alls throw skill out the window.
No, the items are part of the balance, but not the fact that they are random. You're not seeing the difference between the two.How do you go about ignoring them when people would more than likely use them if they're there? If they have to take away the random item variable out anyway when balancing, just don't have them on while balancing characters in every match.
Okay, I see what you're getting at now. The problem with that is that it implies that some characters are going to be reliant on items or projectile items in order to succeed; but considering that items being on is an option, it seems silly to me to balance with items in mind.No, the items are part of the balance, but not the fact that they are random. You're not seeing the difference between the two.
That's what makes it interesting!I think the developers had the intention to make the game balanced, but that just isn't possible. Even games designed to be tournament based have some serious balance issues. all fighting games do.
I don't think there is one character who is reliant on items, but they are still part of the balance, so take it as you will.Okay, I see what you're getting at now. The problem with that is that it implies that some characters are going to be reliant on items or projectile items in order to succeed; but considering that items being on is an option, it seems silly to me to balance with items in mind.
Like I've said before, Smash is successful in part because the competitive community is ignored. While they don't actively want a harder game, the things they want will indirectly make the game harder. This is why I say Street Fighter is domed because to make a more assessable SF would bring hostility from the competitive players. Smash has not reached that point, so it is a good thing. of course, in Smash, it would work in reverse. The lower end players would be hostile if the game became to hard and competitively focused.Of course, I'm the type who believes it should be balanced for one on one with no items since the competitive people care about that and that 4 player FFA is where balance and whatnot are tossed out the window in favor of massive chaos.
Also remember that the Metagames for Smash are diverse. Most fighting games don't have many options to turn on or off, but Smash does. The competitive community chose their metagame, but it is not what most people play. For one, to balance everything to perfection is impossible, and second, Sakurai chooses to focus on the mass metagame, which is 4 players, items and lots of stages.I think the developers had the intention to make the game balanced, but that just isn't possible. Even games designed to be tournament based have some serious balance issues. all fighting games do.