Do you think the designers of brawl knew what tiers the chars would be?

[Expedio]

Read title exactly that. How well do you think the game designers could predict how good they were making what characters. Did they balance it a lot or a little? What do you guys think.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Nah, but i'm pretty sure Sakurai knew about Melee's Tier List. That would explain how all the Top and High Tiers got nerfed and are now Middle or Bottom Tiers in Brawl, except for Marth and Falco.

 

[Kitamerby]

Nah, but i'm pretty sure Sakurai knew about Melee's Tier List. That would explain how all the Top and High Tiers got nerfed and are now Middle or Bottom Tiers in Brawl, except for Marth and Falco.

And Link.

10char

 

[Dsull]

They had to of known of the tier system since the original. If they didnt pay attention to the more "pro" gamers duking it out, tournament mode probably wouldnt exist.
It would also explain why some chars didnt get touched, others got minor tweaks, and some got virtual rewriting of the character save for basic idea/moves. Kirby was beyond worthless in Melee, but he's pretty awesome at dance-fighting in brawl (meaning he never stands still for more than 1 hit).

Overall balancing, i sincerely doubt they paid attention to that except to not have 1hitwonders. An example? Jiggy vs MK............no comment

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I doubt they had a tier list made but I'm sure they had some idea of how good the characters were in relation to each other. They probably didn't care, though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

They deffinatly knew MetaKnight would become on of the better characters.

 

[mars16]

Maybe for some characters

Im sure he new Ganandorf would be in a low tier.

 

[Dsull]

Maybe for some characters

Im sure he new Ganandorf would be in a low tier.

Actually, probably not. Ganondorf at first (to me anyway) seemed like he'd be a higher tier. He hits hard, isnt too terible to control, and is somewhat difficult to master. After playing him for a few days i realised that he had virtually no combo potential and his recovery blew donkey ballz. First impressions are usually wrong ive noticed. Snake and MK when i first saw them i thought they were ********..........................guess im ******** for thinking so lol

 

[SmashChu]

Smash Bros is designed as a 4 player fighting game, but competitive player is only two players, and they also remove a lot of the games content. The teir in Smash are created a good deal by bottle necking the game. When looking at characters, they probably looked at it in a 4vs way (this is why Link was nerfed, a was very powerful in 4vs).

The developers probably had no idea who would break though as that was not the focus of development.

 

[Big-Cat]

Smash Bros is designed as a 4 player fighting game, but competitive player is only two players, and they also remove a lot of the games content. The teir in Smash are created a good deal by bottle necking the game. When looking at characters, they probably looked at it in a 4vs way (this is why Link was nerfed, a was very powerful in 4vs).

The developers probably had no idea who would break though as that was not the focus of development.

How was Link a beast in 4 player Melee matches?

 

[SmashChu]

How was Link a beast in 4 player Melee matches?

Powerful all around, good projectiles, UP B was an amazing sweep and air attack, easy to use forward smash. The only thing that he sucked at was his up Smash.

 

[Astartes]

i think they had know idea how good some characters would be. they might have thought about the individual moves of characters but definitely not their entire package.

 

[Problem2]

some of the characters are also built to shine depending on what you are playing (at least in Melee anyways). Fox's melee trophy for example said that he was best suited for 1vs1, while Pichu is supposed to take advantage of items.

 

[superyoshi888]

Absolutly not. It is impossible for them to have predicted how competitive smash would turn out. This game is designed to be played with items, not necessarily all 4 fighters, but the general idea is there. That is why characters play the way they do: Ganondorf sucks, but he has a multitude of techniques that easily make him one of the better characters with items on. Likewise, Meta Knight is the best character in the game, but his Final Smash is near worthless and from what I have seen there really isn't much he can do with items that other characters can't do better.

So, in a sense, the game is balanced to a certain extent, but not for competitive play. I doubt they had competitive players in mind when designing Brawl, especially considering the drastic changes made to make the game not competitive.

 

[BSP]

They deffinatly knew MetaKnight would become on of the better characters.

Yeah, but since smash is a party game, they probably thought that since meta has a bad FS (well not as good as others), really light (DI and Momentum cancelling wouldnt be used in casual), and no projectile would balence his absurd priority, recovery, etc.

I mean, MK is still good with items on, but the gap is shortened quite a bit. They probably thought he was ok.

 

[Deleted member]

They had to have known of tiers from Melee. Thats why Sakurai sunk the competitive scene down a notch.

Nah, but i'm pretty sure Sakurai knew about Melee's Tier List. That would explain how all the Top and High Tiers got nerfed and are now Middle or Bottom Tiers in Brawl, except for Marth and Falco.

Marth is just high tier in brawl because of his character style (Fast, Good spacing, Good priority, good grab, low lag), and there seems to be not much you can do about that. However, i believe Falco claims a high tier due to his easy to use and moderately quick playstyle along with a few broken assets.

The playstyle shift changed too. From combo and control in SSB 64 and Melee to spacing and defensive metagame in brawl. Also, less hitstun, removal of many technical skills(L cancel, impossible teching) and new features (Multi airdodge, ez powershield, tripping) contribute to a vastly different gameplay style than the previous two to balance.

I also think that due to the fact that they added in final smashes and expected 4 man FFA with items to be the expected gameplay that they purposefully ignored 1v1 skilled matches. And, therefore, individual balances.

But i think they knew that certain characters would seem powerful and look great immediately upon release to the smash community like ZSS, MK, Ike, and Pit. I remember ppl desperately trying to make tier lists a day after brawl came out...
Maybe after a while, the current tier list will look just ridiculous.

 

[tankzortz]

maybe mk and snake, but thars probably it

 

[UltiMario]

MK -Sakurai's moist beloved creation, the coolness factor of MK's ******ness was too much for Sakurai, and made him godly to thank him.

Snake- well, Konami just payed a LOT of money.

 

[kingcobra9]

i wonder if they realized the chaingrabs after wards...didn't notice...or purposfully put them in

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Wow, Sakurai loves Meta Knight more than Kirby? xD †

♪ Anyway, items + wacky stages = unknown tier list for them. †

 

[Zeruel21]

Not to the extent that we do now, but it isn't like they casually threw together a set of characters without knowing how they'd turn out. Every game goes through extensive playtesting before release, and not just for bugfixes. If you look at the time after release as really extended playtesting, of course we're going to find imbalances.

Although I would like to have a chat with the people who decided MK was a good idea as-is...

Also, I really doubt that the game was made for FFA. Just because they had items doesn't mean they planned everything around using them. Same goes for some stages and modes.

 

[Big-Cat]

Absolutly not. It is impossible for them to have predicted how competitive smash would turn out. This game is designed to be played with items, not necessarily all 4 fighters, but the general idea is there. That is why characters play the way they do: Ganondorf sucks, but he has a multitude of techniques that easily make him one of the better characters with items on. Likewise, Meta Knight is the best character in the game, but his Final Smash is near worthless and from what I have seen there really isn't much he can do with items that other characters can't do better.

So, in a sense, the game is balanced to a certain extent, but not for competitive play. I doubt they had competitive players in mind when designing Brawl, especially considering the drastic changes made to make the game not competitive.

Assuming they did balance the game all that much, how can they go about balancing the game with items on. It'd be one thing if you had select items that were on the stage at the beginning like in FPS games, but the chance of X item appearing or not appearing is totally random. How do you go about balancing a game when an aspect of the game is subject to serendipity with no one having control of it during the match?

 

[j0s3ph]

Also, I really doubt that the game was made for FFA. Just because they had items doesn't mean they planned everything around using them. Same goes for some stages and modes.

I agree, if the game was made for FFA's with items, why did they include final destination? They obviously know of the competitive scene, though I doubt it is their priority when they make the game.
Also, I remember reading I think on Smash Dojo that Snake is one of the better chars, so they obviously knew that.

 

[Big-Cat]

Also, I remember reading I think on Smash Dojo that Snake is one of the better chars, so they obviously knew that.

I just looked on Snake's page on the Dojo and nothing is said there. You might have seen it somewhere else.

 

[SmashChu]

Assuming they did balance the game all that much, how can they go about balancing the game with items on. It'd be one thing if you had select items that were on the stage at the beginning like in FPS games, but the chance of X item appearing or not appearing is totally random. How do you go about balancing a game when an aspect of the game is subject to serendipity with no one having control of it during the match?

The random factor would be irrelevant to that kind of discussion as it would have no effect on balance, just luck. You'd probably look at them by scenario. How would this character handle with this, or another with that.

 

[Big-Cat]

The random factor would be irrelevant to that kind of discussion as it would have no effect on balance, just luck. You'd probably look at them by scenario. How would this character handle with this, or another with that.

That's what I'd do which is why I'd just balance them with the items off since the randomness would/should be irrelevant to the character's moveset. Anyway, when you ask as to how would X character handle a certain situtation, are you saying that they would have an answer for any given situation, or am I misinterpreting.

 

['V']

No they were not thinking of competitive aspects, otherwise they would be making patches or whatever. That's why we have MK's trouncing Ganon's left and right.

 

[Big-Cat]

That raises the question of what they had in mind when it came to balancing.

Anyway, patches wouldn't happen. It'd be expensive to maintain a team to make updates to the code. Think of what it's already like with Brawl+. To me, it's better to make update games where the balancing is fixed, maybe add a new mechanic or simplify a pre-existing one, some new stages and music, and a character or two that was heavily requested but couldn't make it in the first time.

 

[SmashChu]

That's what I'd do which is why I'd just balance them with the items off since the randomness would/should be irrelevant to the character's moveset. Anyway, when you ask as to how would X character handle a certain situtation, are you saying that they would have an answer for any given situation, or am I misinterpreting.

No, they'd still balance them with items, they would just ignore the fact that they spawn randomly.

 

[Dsull]

Yeah, but since smash is a party game, they probably thought that since meta has a bad FS (well not as good as others), really light (DI and Momentum cancelling wouldnt be used in casual), and no projectile would balence his absurd priority, recovery, etc.

I mean, MK is still good with items on, but the gap is shortened quite a bit. They probably thought he was ok.

Agreed

For probably a month or so when brawl came out, i never had items turned off. As a result, MK was never used because of his short range, lack of insane speed (like Fox has or Sonic), and light weight. Any explosion via boobytrap or bombomb would kill him 7/10 times above 40% far as i could tell.
Then my friends and i started doing 1on1s with no items (since theyre unfair in 1on1s) and one of them chose MK as a joke. He whooped *** with'm. But, when we went back to goofing off in 4vs and items were back on, he got annihilated.

The same thing goes for Wolf (or atleast how i play him). He was my main for most of a year. With items, or in a 4vs, i couldnt use him to save my life. 1on1's without items though, most of my deaths were missjudging where the ledge was when i did my FB move or FB'ing off the edge by accident (god i hate that)

No they were not thinking of competitive aspects, otherwise they would be making patches or whatever. That's why we have MK's trouncing Ganon's left and right.

Actually releasing a patch for a game ran off a disc would be impossible. It would require a lot of hassles to get everyone the right patch and installed right since the game is not on the harddrive like PC games are. Look at B+, i bet right now some idiot with Beta is trying to find out why he cant play with his friend on the internet anymore cuz his friend went to Official.

That raises the question of what they had in mind when it came to balancing.

Anyway, patches wouldn't happen. It'd be expensive to maintain a team to make updates to the code. Think of what it's already like with Brawl+. To me, it's better to make update games where the balancing is fixed, maybe add a new mechanic or simplify a pre-existing one, some new stages and music, and a character or two that was heavily requested but couldn't make it in the first time.

Yea a team that is dedicated to constantly upgrading a code to a game is quite expensive. Look at any MMO for that matter. Sure, they seem to be getting millions per month (i.e. WoW) but i betcha atleast half of that goes to the team's pay and half or so of whats left to upkeep/advertisement.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

None of the smash games were made for competitive play, although looking at how each game changes shows they do pay some attention to it by nerfing Sheik and Fox while continuing to make Link low tier.

But for the most part, they don't decide who is going to be the best character.

 

[AMKalmar]

Smash Bros is designed as a 4 player fighting game, but competitive player is only two players, and they also remove a lot of the games content. The teir in Smash are created a good deal by bottle necking the game. When looking at characters, they probably looked at it in a 4vs way (this is why Link was nerfed, a was very powerful in 4vs).

The developers probably had no idea who would break though as that was not the focus of development.

Maybe it's just me, but everyone I know says 4 player is a mess. You just can't concentrate like you can in 1 on 1. 2 on 2 isn't bad if you practice with your partner - you learn how they play, where to avoid them and where they'll need help. But 4 player free for alls throw skill out the window.

As far as knowing the tier list, there's no way they knew it accurately, but a few days into vs mode it's easy to see who's rigged and who sucks. They could've at least put cpus vs each other for testing... it's just laziness. So unbalanced.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, they'd still balance them with items, they would just ignore the fact that they spawn randomly.

How do you go about ignoring them when people would more than likely use them if they're there? If they have to take away the random item variable out anyway when balancing, just don't have them on while balancing characters in every match.

 

[SmashChu]

None of the smash games were made for competitive play, although looking at how each game changes shows they do pay some attention to it by nerfing Sheik and Fox while continuing to make Link low tier.

But for the most part, they don't decide who is going to be the best character.

Link has been a good 4vs character in the last two games.

Maybe it's just me, but everyone I know says 4 player is a mess. You just can't concentrate like you can in 1 on 1. 2 on 2 isn't bad if you practice with your partner - you learn how they play, where to avoid them and where they'll need help. But 4 player free for alls throw skill out the window.

It's a different game altogether. You have to know how to concentrate on your opponents and what's going on (the stages and the items). It's defiantly skill based, but the skills needed in the environment are different then those most competitively minded players have.

How do you go about ignoring them when people would more than likely use them if they're there? If they have to take away the random item variable out anyway when balancing, just don't have them on while balancing characters in every match.

No, the items are part of the balance, but not the fact that they are random. You're not seeing the difference between the two.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, the items are part of the balance, but not the fact that they are random. You're not seeing the difference between the two.

Okay, I see what you're getting at now. The problem with that is that it implies that some characters are going to be reliant on items or projectile items in order to succeed; but considering that items being on is an option, it seems silly to me to balance with items in mind.

Of course, I'm the type who believes it should be balanced for one on one with no items since the competitive people care about that and that 4 player FFA is where balance and whatnot are tossed out the window in favor of massive chaos.

 

[Kaffei]

I bet Sakurai made MK broken because he made MK and he loves MK. ajjjajajgdfoafz

 

[Meccs]

He probably knew about MK. But iirc (i remember reading this somewhere on here), he purposefully left in the air on D3's throw (which pushes people far enough for chaingrabbing.) (it was brought up after people played the demo or something and he didn't do anything. hell i don't remember... )

 

[codfish92]

I think the developers had the intention to make the game balanced, but that just isn't possible. Even games designed to be tournament based have some serious balance issues. all fighting games do.

 

[Kaffei]

I think the developers had the intention to make the game balanced, but that just isn't possible. Even games designed to be tournament based have some serious balance issues. all fighting games do.

That's what makes it interesting!

 

[SmashChu]

Okay, I see what you're getting at now. The problem with that is that it implies that some characters are going to be reliant on items or projectile items in order to succeed; but considering that items being on is an option, it seems silly to me to balance with items in mind.

I don't think there is one character who is reliant on items, but they are still part of the balance, so take it as you will.

Of course, I'm the type who believes it should be balanced for one on one with no items since the competitive people care about that and that 4 player FFA is where balance and whatnot are tossed out the window in favor of massive chaos.

Like I've said before, Smash is successful in part because the competitive community is ignored. While they don't actively want a harder game, the things they want will indirectly make the game harder. This is why I say Street Fighter is domed because to make a more assessable SF would bring hostility from the competitive players. Smash has not reached that point, so it is a good thing. of course, in Smash, it would work in reverse. The lower end players would be hostile if the game became to hard and competitively focused.

I think the developers had the intention to make the game balanced, but that just isn't possible. Even games designed to be tournament based have some serious balance issues. all fighting games do.

Also remember that the Metagames for Smash are diverse. Most fighting games don't have many options to turn on or off, but Smash does. The competitive community chose their metagame, but it is not what most people play. For one, to balance everything to perfection is impossible, and second, Sakurai chooses to focus on the mass metagame, which is 4 players, items and lots of stages.