Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[dream1ng]

It doesn't sound like Krystal was really considered at all.

Sakurai answers some (old) questions– about Brawl!

These questions were part of a two-part article that was published shortly after Brawl’s release, in the magazine Nintendo Dream, featuring a bunch of reader questions, which Sakurai answered…

sourcegaming.info

Basically just sounds like to me that it was going to be Wolf or no one. And Wolf only really happened because he hit the sweetspot of being popular and also being a deriative character of Fox that wouldn't eat up much resources.

Honestly it's kind of a repeat of what happened with Falco back in Melee, he just got in because they needed quick clone characters to throw in the tail-end of development. Really doesn't seem like additional Star Fox characters were ever a priority for Sakurai.

...but if you have instant specific reasoning why you did or didn't pursue a specific path, that means you thought about it at one point. Reasoning implies consideration. Something like "that would've been interesting!" or a statement to that effect would more suggest never having given it thought.

It does sound like she was considered. It just sounds like she was never anything more than considered.

 

[Hinata]

You know what franchise I think deserves a newcomer? Kirby. Doesn't even have to be Bandana Dee, I just think Kirby has a lot of untapped potential with its characters.

Adeleine, Daroach, Marx, Susie, Magolor, the list goes on.

 

[Technomage]

Sometimes it kind of feels like the only reason Star Fox has any characters beyond Fox is because of luck. With the characters hitting that alformentioned sweetspot of being popular and being easy to make.

There exists another timeline where we never got Falco and Wolf and Fox is the sole representative for his series, the same way others like Captain Falcon and Wario are with theirs.

As well as a timeline like that, but with Black Shadow and Blood Falcon joining Captain Falcon in the roster.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly given Nintendo' owns lack of consistent (or even careful) attention to Star Fox, it getting two additional characters because they were relatively easy to include makes complete sense.

 

[Aboyd]

I'm now kinda confused, since when Source gaming did their episode on Brawl characters, they said that Sonic being rushed was a popular misconception, So Now I'm not sure what to believe

Considering how Source gaming provided sources directly from Sakurai, I believe them

 

[PacificFun]

Speaking of cut characters, I really feel like if Ultimate had a longer development cycle, Nikki from Swapnote would have been playable. For three games straight, we had a WTF newcomer that represented hardware, and I feel like Nikki would have been weird enough for Sakurai to pick her as the 3DS "rep".

 

[Dinoman96]

Speaking of cut characters, I really feel like if Ultimate had a longer development cycle, Nikki from Swapnote would have been playable. For three games straight, we had a WTF newcomer that represented hardware, and I feel like Nikki would have been weird enough for Sakurai to pick her as the 3DS "rep".

For all intents and purposes, it would seem Piranha Plant was considered to be Ultimate's equivalent to G&W, R.O.B and Duck Hunt in Sakurai's eyes.

 

[PacificFun]

For all intents and purposes, it would seem Piranha Plant was considered to be Ultimate's equivalent to G&W, R.O.B and Duck Hunt in Sakurai's eyes.

I see Wii Fit as Smash4's hardware WTF over Duck Hunt. I personally put Plant next to the likes of Duck Hunt and Ice Climbers. Definitely WTF but not necessarily representing hardware.

 

[Dinoman96]

I see Wii Fit as Smash4's hardware WTF over Duck Hunt.

Well Sakurai seems to consider Duck Hunt as Smash 4's "surprise character".

 

[Ivander]

Well Sakurai seems to consider Duck Hunt as Smash 4's "surprise character".

looks at Smash Run section

Do not give up! The Switch is now out! Make your dreams for co-op in Smash Run come true! Smash Run for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate!
No, I won't stop fighting for Smash Run to come back.

 

[PacificFun]

Well Sakurai seems to consider Duck Hunt as Smash 4's "surprise character".

Huh, I viewed Wii Fit and Duck Hunt as the WTF characters. Interesting that he doesn't consider Wii Fit a WTF at least conceptually (regardless of the success that was Wii Fit). She feels way weirder and "out of place" than Duck Hunt to me.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The oddness of adapting a fitness character aside, I can see the logic in getting Wii Fit Trainer. She was from a well known and fairly popular recent title that reasonably well with a casual audience. Given that Mii Fighters exist largely to allow some customization, it could be said that she is effectively a fighter representing the Wii in that sense. From a pure relevancy and contemporary gaming standpoint, including the Duck Hunt trio (from a game series that had been effectively in hibernation since the 80s outside a Wii Play shout out) is a bit more out there.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Just a head's up: Zippo might have been right on some things after all.

UPDATE - the Sonic collection that Zippo described has seemingly been listed by SoGamely, the same company which listed Sonic Colours Ultimate: https://t.co/yinw7GQVeQ https://t.co/qvtuDmYUZU pic.twitter.com/vhWqje4XPX

— Liam (@liamrobertson.bsky) (@Doctor_Cupcakes) May 22, 2021

 

[SKX31]

Jigglypuff was built off Kirby the first time, I'm not sure if the same is true for the future games. It's just that Jiggs, Wolf, Toon Link, Mewtwo, and the others in the data were all on the sliding scale of expendability, and the axe came down between, seemingly, Wolf and Mewtwo.

Puff used Kirby as base (and could be considered a semi-clone in 64, with the Specials being the primary difference-maker. Although some normals were different too), yes, but the two did go through some divergence from Melee onwards:

• Kirby's airspeed was nerfed in Melee (already one of the slowest in 64), while Jigglypuff's was buffed to be the fastest. While this contrast already existed in 64, Melee highlighted it and it's generally stayed that way since. The only one who outperforms Jigglypuff's air speed from Brawl onwards is Yoshi.
• Melee gave Kirby a new F-Air (the triple kick) and U-Air (the upwards kick) and moved his old U-Air (Twinkle Star, the spin) to N-Air. In 64 his F-Air was a drill kick akin to Puff's extension (with Kirby's being multihit, Puff's single) and his old N-Air was the outward kick Puff has.
• Jigglypuff's aerials went mostly unchanged in Melee - although as a sidenote, the aerials sheer disjoints made its infamous "Wall of Pain" possible. Kirby's aerials were not intended to be that disjointed. Highlighting this since this emphasises a key playstyle difference.
• The new throws in Melee provided some differentiations, with Kirby getting the drill D-Throw and the forward suplex F-Throw (his U-Throw was the old F-Throw) while Jigglypuff got the "grind on the opponent" D-Throw and the "Puff itself up" F-Throw.

The oddness of adapting a fitness character aside, I can see the logic in getting Wii Fit Trainer. She was from a well known and fairly popular recent title that reasonably well with a casual audience. Given that Mii Fighters exist largely to allow some customization, it could be said that she is effectively a fighter representing the Wii in that sense. From a pure relevancy and contemporary gaming standpoint, including the Duck Hunt trio (from a game series that had been effectively in hibernation since the 80s outside a Wii Play shout out) is a bit more out there.

was also a chance to slap seemingly random NES stuff like Hogan's Alley and Wild Gunman into the roster by proxy since they weren't getting into Smash anyway (outside of maybe a future WTF character appearance, but that's never guaranteed for individual characters).

Hey, the end product is 100 % worth it since when the duo / trio get going, (**** it I'm calling them a duo despite it being technically inaccurate) there's some beautiful mindgames involved:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/n75z4v

Just a head's up: Zippo might have been right on some things after all.

Huh. No matter how the cookie crumbles in the end, this is going to be kinda interesting to follow.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

A Sonic Collection makes complete sense for the series 30th anniversary.

As cool as it'll (possibly?) be to get Sonic 3 & Knuckles on modern consoles, I'd love if we also got some 3D titles and the Advance games finally re-released in some fashion as well.

 

[Technomage]

A Sonic Collection makes complete sense for the series 30th anniversary.

As cool as it'll (possibly?) be to get Sonic 3 & Knuckles on modern consoles, I'd love if we also got some 3D titles and the Advance games finally re-released in some fashion as well.

Maybe that game could lead to a 2nd Sonic rep as a shill pick for E3 (even though it's not as bad as some other shill picks, for various reasons)?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sometimes it kind of feels like the only reason Star Fox has any characters beyond Fox is because of luck. With the characters hitting that alformentioned sweetspot of being popular and being easy to make.

There exists another timeline where we never got Falco and Wolf and Fox is the sole representative for his series, the same way others like Captain Falcon and Wario are with theirs.

The same could be said for Earthbound.

I don't think people understand how WTF a choice like Ness was back in the 90s. Even Captain Falcon made more sense as he just had a recent release that sold well. The fact that a franchise as small as Earthbound got two characters is honestly kind of surreal.

Star Fox has at least had several million sellers. (Assault had over a million sales? Oh heck yeah!)

 

[Mamboo07]

You know what franchise I think deserves a newcomer? Kirby. Doesn't even have to be Bandana Dee, I just think Kirby has a lot of untapped potential with its characters.

Adeleine, Daroach, Marx, Susie, Magolor, the list goes on.

I would be interested with Dark Matter as a villain rep.
(Dedede doesn't count, he became more of a good guy.)

 

[Hinata]

The same could be said for Earthbound.

I don't think people understand how WTF a choice like Ness was back in the 90s. Even Captain Falcon made more sense as he just had a recent release that sold well. The fact that a franchise as small as Earthbound got two characters is honestly kind of surreal.

Star Fox has at least had several million sellers. (Assault had over a million sales? Oh heck yeah!)

Weird to think of Ness as the WTF pick of Smash 64, but it does make sense.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Weird to think of Ness as the WTF pick of Smash 64, but it does make sense.

It's even harder to believe that Samus was considered an oddball choice too.

Sakurai even said he had people asking who she was.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

In all seriousness, what if a Sony rep really is on the table? That'd be wild.

They've always been on the table, just not talked about as much as they should be imo.

 

[chocolatejr9]

They've always been on the table, just not talked about as much as they should be imo.

To be fair, this is SONY we're talking about. Either they or Nintendo still don't like each other, unlike Microsoft.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

To be fair, this is SONY we're talking about. Either they or Nintendo still don't like each other, unlike Microsoft.

I've never really seen concrete evidence myself that Sony and Nintendo have a weak relationship between each other. Still, I guess I can see where you're coming from.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

With Sony and Nintendo I've always wondered if its a case of the former simply not being interested unless there's considerable money involved and the latter not terribly inclined to shell out the money needed for any kind of deal. Given that Sony wouldn't even do Fortnite crossplay unless they were compensated by Epic I can easily see their price for something like Smash crossovers not being something Nintendo sees as worth it.

 

[Technomage]

To be fair, this is SONY we're talking about. Either they or Nintendo still don't like each other, unlike Microsoft.

That's got me wondering something: How did Microsoft and Nintendo end up so buddy-buddy?

 

[Dinoman96]

That's got me wondering something: How did Microsoft and Nintendo end up so buddy-buddy?

Minecraft.

Who saved Rare?

Eight years ago, Eurogamer printed the article 'Who killed Rare?'It was a sad read for fans of the studio. It came at a…

www.gamesindustry.biz

"Minecraft had paved the way for that relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft," Duncan recalls. "I met with Nintendo at the E3 before we announced it. And then we connected our teams, because we thought it seemed like a great opportunity.

 

[PacificFun]

That's got me wondering something: How did Microsoft and Nintendo end up so buddy-buddy?

Microsoft (like Nintendo) seems to be trying to label themselves as indirect competition with Sony rather than doing full on war. Sure, they still "compete" for big power and attract "mature" players, but their ecosystems are completely different.

Edit: Or nevermind, its Minecraft.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Microsoft also sees itself as a platform for the means of playing games more than just purely a console developer as well. The entire nature of Game Pass is demonstrative of the particular ways it makes money beyond just selling Xbox units, as does allowing titles like the Ori duology on Switch because its the kind of game that works in its profit model as also being a Nintendo release and not just an Xbox and PC exclusive.

 

[PSIGuy]

The same could be said for Earthbound.

I don't think people understand how WTF a choice like Ness was back in the 90s. Even Captain Falcon made more sense as he just had a recent release that sold well. The fact that a franchise as small as Earthbound got two characters is honestly kind of surreal.

Ness makes sense from a development standpoint at least. Ties into EB64 (which was still totally a thing at the time), shared development staff like Hal and Iwata probably made it easy to organize with Itoi and Ness himself seems to use Mario's bodytype if their similar polygon fighters are any indication.

 

[Technomage]

Microsoft (like Nintendo) seems to be trying to label themselves as indirect competition with Sony rather than doing full on war. Sure, they still "compete" for big power and attract "mature" players, but their ecosystems are completely different.

Edit: Or nevermind, its Minecraft.

Or maybe it could be both? After all, Sony did dominate the last 3 gens (or at least the PS2 and PS4 gens); maybe Ninty and Micro thought an alliance would help crush Sony?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Really a lot of this comes down to the different contexts and business models that the big three employ in the market.

-Nintendo is strictly game company that prioritizes unique means of gameplay over big hardware leaps.
-Microsoft is a computer business that has a lot of focus in profitable gaming insfruscture to offset its hardware costs.
-Sony is an electronics giant with strong ties to the entertainment industry and major investment in making its games the biggest and most groundbreaking.

Its the kind of thing that explains why its been a steady three man race for 20 years and how the former two could more easily work together for certain titles.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I can easily see their price for something like Smash crossovers not being something Nintendo sees as worth it.

I kinda doubt Sony wouldn't ask for a good amount of money for such a deal.
But I still agree with the other points you made!

 

[Garteam]

A Sony character feels like something that will happen in the next Smash game. While this is the friendliest Nintendo and Sony have been since the original falling out over the Playstation, their partnership is still in its infancy. It's clear both parties are still somewhat hesitant to adopt things like crossplay and bringing exclusives to other platforms, but stuff like MLB The Show '21 being multiplatform shows that things are warming up between the two.

Hopefully, by the time the next Smash and its DLC are being planned, Nintendo and Sony will be close enough to have a serious discussion about a Sony character in Smash.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

A Sony character feels like something that will happen in the next Smash game. While this is the friendliest Nintendo and Sony have been since the original falling out over the Playstation, their partnership is still in its infancy. It's clear both parties are still somewhat hesitant to adopt things like crossplay and bringing exclusives to other platforms, but stuff like MLB The Show '21 being multiplatform shows that things are warming up between the two.

Hopefully, by the time the next Smash and its DLC are being planned, Nintendo and Sony will be close enough to have a serious discussion about a Sony character in Smash.

God I hope you're right.. That is, assuming Sony doesn't get content in Ultimate.

Also, this is old, and probably insignificant as of now, but have y'all seen this?

https://twitter.com/ForSackboy/status/1349771991314800643

 

[DanganZilla5]

A Sony character feels like something that will happen in the next Smash game. While this is the friendliest Nintendo and Sony have been since the original falling out over the Playstation, their partnership is still in its infancy. It's clear both parties are still somewhat hesitant to adopt things like crossplay and bringing exclusives to other platforms, but stuff like MLB The Show '21 being multiplatform shows that things are warming up between the two.

Hopefully, by the time the next Smash and its DLC are being planned, Nintendo and Sony will be close enough to have a serious discussion about a Sony character in Smash.

I hope you are correct sir. Having a Sony character like Kratos or Nathan Drake would certainly have people talking about the next Smash and it would just be a huge deal in general. I'm hoping that one day we will have Mario, Master Chief and Kratos in the same game.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I'm hoping that one day we will have Mario, Master Chief and Kratos in the same game.

By golly, that'd have not just the gaming community talking, but MANY talking.

 

[chocolatejr9]

A Sony character feels like something that will happen in the next Smash game. While this is the friendliest Nintendo and Sony have been since the original falling out over the Playstation, their partnership is still in its infancy. It's clear both parties are still somewhat hesitant to adopt things like crossplay and bringing exclusives to other platforms, but stuff like MLB The Show '21 being multiplatform shows that things are warming up between the two.

Hopefully, by the time the next Smash and its DLC are being planned, Nintendo and Sony will be close enough to have a serious discussion about a Sony character in Smash.

My hope is for one of the Japanese Sony characters, like Kat or Spike. I feel like those would fit Smash better than, say, Kratos.

 

[DanganZilla5]

Like legit, just entertain the idea of a Kratos/Master Chief double reveal at E3 for a moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing would ever be able to top that. You want to create the most ambitious crossover of all time? That's how you do it. It would be checkmate at that point.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Like legit, just entertain the idea of a Kratos/Master Chief double reveal at E3 for a moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing would ever be able to top that. You want to create the most ambitious crossover of all time? That's how you do it. It would be checkmate at that point.

Followed by a goddamn CGI 1v1 between them

 

[Technomage]

After checking the Newcomer Support Thread Directory, I noticed it doesn't have a section showing hypothetical emblems of new series. What emblems would each hypothetical new series get? Like, for starters, what would Halo's and God of War's be?