Difficult matchups for Puff?

[Elthon]

I feel like Jiggs is pretty balanced and I usually don't have problems with any specific character. Every once in a while I get problems from a sonic though. But thanks to the updated sing i can usually come out with a win. Since they are usually crazy players they tend to run/roll right into a sing. Then I rest or combo to potential rest.

 

[thesage]

I had a lot of problems dealing with diddy kong's fair. It seemed to keep outranging me.

 

[Krynxe]

If you're being beaten in the air-to-air game, then stay on the floor more to utilize shield

 

[ROOOOY!]

I get zoned out by villager, and spend too much time preoccupied about the tree. Do I suck?

 

[ZHMT]

So far I think Puffs hardest matchup is Yoshi due to similar aerial mobility, difficulty to gimp, better weight and ko power and setups into uair etc. Its definitely not awful but defiinitely think its around 65 or at best 60 Yoshis favor.

Diddy seems our advantage though as well as Sheik possibly, so that's great for us as those 2 characters are also very good right now and popular.

 

[NINJATTILA]

Little Mac is annoying to try and approach as Jiggs, majority of his moves take priority and annoying to gimp because Little Mac players won't go near the edge.

 

[drakeirving]

What you want to do there is take advantage of the fact that good Mac players will want to get away from the edge as soon as possible. If you can force them towards the edge, then you can predict them using unsafe moves to try and get back to center. For example, if you have him really up at the edge you can often force a roll because you know he isn't going to want to jump at you.

 

[RedBeanPorridge]

Ones I have problems with online are Little Mac and Zero Suit Samus due to their higher speed and they hit pretty hard, Link and Toon Link because of their projectiles, and yoshi because of his aerial mobility i suppose?

Though with little mac the game's pretty much over if I manage to snag a chance to grab him and back throw him off the ledge, nair him once, then watch him fail to recover. But it's easier said than done. Another problem I have with little mac is the amount of moves he has with super armor. When we're both at high percents, just when I bair him and think that the games over and that hes about to be launched off screen, nope he still hits me and launches me all the way to the other side of the screen. Damn my floatiness.

Also another good thing jiggs has got going for her when against little mac is the fact that jiggs can duck most of his moves giving you a chance to punish. Same with Zero Suit Samus.

 

[PKPro]

I had a lot of trouble with a ZSS today. For some reason I couldn't get in Those Ray guns get annoying lol
Can someone tell me the matchup?

just crouch it almost all of ZSS moves whiff when jiggly crouches

 

[♫ Zura ♫]

just crouch it almost all of ZSS moves whiff when jiggly crouches

Yeah that's what I do now, same thing with other characters projectiles, like Robins charge, or Dark pits arrow. It's funny because Jigg's crouch can be so useful in many situations. Recently someone uploaded the uses of her crouch. Characters couldn't grab her, Marts/Lucinas Neutral B sword stab didn't touch her.
Jigglypuff is just so good

 

[Mithost]

I played a bunch of games against a strong Villager, and I found a few things to watch out for.

1) Slingshot spam can stuff a lot of your approaches, but hitting the rocks with Fair will cancel them out. Make sure you are not in Fair's end lag when you reach Villager though, as the slingshot move's end lag is small enough to punish you if you can't meet him with an active hitbox.

2) Building on the slingshot, watch when Villager drops from the ledge then shoots one close to the ground while jumping back up. You can't crouch under it and if you use Fair to cancel them the landing lag from the Fair will leave you pretty vulnerable.

3) Don't challenge the Gyroid Rocket's startup. By the time you can punish the startup animation, the rocket has already spawned and you will probably lose the exchange.

4) When fighting Villager off-stage, try to force him to use his Up-B instead of his Rocket. Jiggs can easily pop both balloons with Fair or Nair, and you can punish pretty much every attempt at landing with rest or Bair. Compare that to his rocket, you have to wait until he's in free-fall to punish.

5) Villager's FTilt is a kill move on Jiggs. I can't remember the percent exactly, but it's something you should keep in mind when spacing.

6) You can rest the tree. Don't rest the tree.

 

[PKPro]

I played a bunch of games against a strong Villager, and I found a few things to watch out for.

1) Slingshot spam can stuff a lot of your approaches, but hitting the rocks with Fair will cancel them out. Make sure you are not in Fair's end lag when you reach Villager though, as the slingshot move's end lag is small enough to punish you if you can't meet him with an active hitbox.

2) Building on the slingshot, watch when Villager drops from the ledge then shoots one close to the ground while jumping back up. You can't crouch under it and if you use Fair to cancel them the landing lag from the Fair will leave you pretty vulnerable.

3) Don't challenge the Gyroid Rocket's startup. By the time you can punish the startup animation, the rocket has already spawned and you will probably lose the exchange.

4) When fighting Villager off-stage, try to force him to use his Up-B instead of his Rocket. Jiggs can easily pop both balloons with Fair or Nair, and you can punish pretty much every attempt at landing with rest or Bair. Compare that to his rocket, you have to wait until he's in free-fall to punish.

5) Villager's FTilt is a kill move on Jiggs. I can't remember the percent exactly, but it's something you should keep in mind when spacing.

6) You can rest the tree. Don't rest the tree.

When villager is riding the rocket aim for his head, you can knock him out of the rocket without you getting hurt

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Toon Link is like Puffs worst MU from what I know I have played this MU a few times online.

 

[PKPro]

Toon Link is like Puffs worst MU from what I know I have played this MU a few times online.

Not really when toon link starts camping with projectiles , would crouch his arrows catch his bombs and Fair his boomerang
Links forward smash can't connect both hits to kill jiggly because jiggly is sent higher and out of the way

 

[PKPro]

These are my most difficult matchups with jiggly
1.mr.game and watch - his almost no ending lag
2.Donkey Kong - spacing with tilts and lots of kill moves
3.greninja - spamming watershrunken and his Up Smash
4. Ness/Yoshi - for better Aerial game
And Yoshi annoying rolls

 

[LightningLuxray]

Donkey Kong is an extremely easy matchup, it's super easy to dodge the majority of his moves and he's incredibly easy to combo due to his large size. Ness is also in Jiggs favor imo, I find that I can punish a lot of his moves and outspace him pretty easily.

Some of the worst matchups are DHD / Villager for their crazy camping games and Yoshi for his good aerial game, amazing survivability for his small size, and his powerful smashes.

I've heard some talk of the Sheik matchup being easy. Why do you guys feel this way? I feel like her speed makes it really hard to react to her moves, her aerials reach quite far, especially Bair, and her grab game is really scary, especially Down Throw ---> UAir / Fair. Her needles can also be annoying to deal with. I feel like I can't take any risks hitting a shield and getting grabbed or else I'm screwed, and if I don't approach, Sheik can come up and attack quite easily due to how fast she is. What are you guys doing to make this MU easy?

 

[drakeirving]

I've fought many Sheiks that just weren't very good. I think it's easy to get this impression when they aren't being careful and keep using punishable moves.

Yesterday I was pretty consistently destroyed by a good one though. Sheik has incredible options that cover literally everything Jigglypuff has. One of the worst things is that Needles can't be eaten or caught, can have varying duration, comes out near instantly and is extremely hard to predict, unlike most other projectiles in the game. She can throw them right up to when you're in her face and so approaching close to ground is unsafe, while ducking them is nigh useless because they can act fast enough.

If they play smart and defensively, Jiggs is not only forced to approach, but forced to approach pretty much only from above, which is extremely predictable and punishable with good perfect/shield use. If you're outside grab range or are retreating you can eat a dash attack, which also beats/crosses(?) your aerials. Running grab to try and mix up from the shield use is beaten because of how slow Jiggs' run is and the inability to come in from the ground.

She can reach you almost anywhere in the air when following up from e.g. a grab, and falls fast enough to miss and still come back or get into another position. Plus there's the omnipresent threat of bouncing fish, which can be predictable, but only if they overuse it. I died a good number of times just because I was concentrating more on how to space approaches and got clonked by a surprise fish.

I really just racked up damage by poking and getting lucky hits in, and only won once when they used a dair out of habit and I Rest punished. Sheik has a bit of trouble killing, but Jiggs arguably has more when all you have is Rest (which you don't want to pull out haphazardly) and nair/dair, which are both punished with good shield game (and down throw uair kills).

 

[lusterkid]

I seem to have trouble with regular Samus. It's basically the only time I have to change up my play style and be much less aggressive. My friend is rather good at Samus so he always just rolls and spams neutral B.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

I seem to have trouble with regular Samus. It's basically the only time I have to change up my play style and be much less aggressive. My friend is rather good at Samus so he always just rolls and spams neutral B.

Rolls can be punished with a chasing Fair if they roll away and a Nair if they roll towards you. I'll say that I have trouble vs people rolling only to charge their neutral b but that just means they are giving you free percents if they only roll. Its the ones that charge between their offense or defend themselves while charging that gets difficult.

Samus has every projectile that she (jiggs) wants (doesn't have). So we are forced to approach to do anything. Only playing defensive when they feel they can push an offensive up-close.

We can duck semi-charged shots and super missles. Normal missles don't go far but will track you so crouching doesn't work and our SH stuff gets blocked out. Her Zair(i'm gonna consider it a projectile even though I think it isn't) I believe can be crouched just don't crouch vs her grab instead(can someone check if samus' grab can get us while crouched, its been abit...). While I haven't seen many samus' using zair as an aerial offensive tool it has good reach and can stop our spacing.

Outside of projectiles most of samus' attacks are very precise. It's best to assume they know how to space and land their hits so our job is too make it as difficult as possible, by weaving in and out, for them to connect a good smash.

Unfortunately I haven't played enough samus' to talk 'bout her close game. either way they can and will go for scratch damage before getting close to get a kill.

Interesting note: I'm not sure if its her down smash or down tilt(or if im thinking of someone else) but the move where samus sweep her leg across the ground is not only laggy but her hurtbox is extended still after the sweep, so run up rest is very easy here.

Sorry if this is too general, I haven't studied samus' gameplan much

Edit: oh yeah, you can stay in the air(as in at least 1 full hop height) to avoid everything samus has but you can't do much from up there that the samus can't react to.

 

[lusterkid]

Rolls can be punished with a chasing Fair if they roll away and a Nair if they roll towards you. I'll say that I have trouble vs people rolling only to charge their neutral b but that just means they are giving you free percents if they only roll. Its the ones that charge between their offense or defend themselves while charging that gets difficult.

Samus has every projectile that she (jiggs) wants (doesn't have). So we are forced to approach to do anything. Only playing defensive when they feel they can push an offensive up-close.

We can duck semi-charged shots and super missles. Normal missles don't go far but will track you so crouching doesn't work and our SH stuff gets blocked out. Her Zair(i'm gonna consider it a projectile even though I think it isn't) I believe can be crouched just don't crouch vs her grab instead(can someone check if samus' grab can get us while crouched, its been abit...). While I haven't seen many samus' using zair as an aerial offensive tool it has good reach and can stop our spacing.

Outside of projectiles most of samus' attacks are very precise. It's best to assume they know how to space and land their hits so our job is too make it as difficult as possible, by weaving in and out, for them to connect a good smash.

Unfortunately I haven't played enough samus' to talk 'bout her close game. either way they can and will go for scratch damage before getting close to get a kill.

Interesting note: I'm not sure if its her down smash or down tilt(or if im thinking of someone else) but the move where samus sweep her leg across the ground is not only laggy but her hurtbox is extended still after the sweep, so run up rest is very easy here.

Sorry if this is too general, I haven't studied samus' gameplan much

Edit: oh yeah, you can stay in the air(as in at least 1 full hop height) to avoid everything samus has but you can't do much from up there that the samus can't react to.

Thanks for the valuable info, this will definitely help me out when playing Samus!

 

[Freezie KO]

I feel like Charizard could be 90/10 in his favor. His nair outranges and outprioritizes all of Puff's aerials. In fact, everything outranges Puff. It's very difficult to get inside, specifically through the air. The punishes on Charizard are okay for Puff, but Flare Blitz makes it so that gimps are almost always out of the question. Even Flame Breath presents problems for Puff when recovering from below.

I've had my problems with Sheiks and Rosas, but this time it felt like the problem was really all in the matchup. Charizard keeps Puff out very very well.

 

[~Rainbow Mika]

Mmm.. How about the Dedede match-up?
I don't have problems with gordos, but his range always got me when i go for aerials.

I also think Mac just destroy everything Puffz has..

 

[Freezie KO]

Mmm.. How about the Dedede match-up?
I don't have problems with gordos, but his range always got me when i go for aerials.

I also think Mac just destroy everything Puffz has..

D3, similar to Charizard, can outrange Puff on a lot. It's a tough matchup.

Mac, I disagree with. It's just mind games. Get him off the stage and you can gimp his recovery really easily with a nair and its floating hitbox.

 

[KrazyJiggs]

The biggest problem for me since the start has been yoshi

he can hurt you any way you try to approach and his eggs ruin aerial setups if they hit. I can only win by being extremely patient and letting them roll towards me for a grab to quick Nair and maybe Dair if I time it right

 

[LightningLuxray]

Yeah so far I feel as though Yoshi, Little Mac, and DHD are all her hardest matchups, with Sheik and Villager also being tough. I've never really found Zard / Dedede or any of the larger characters to be difficult. You just have to play very patiently and bait out their laggy attacks. Also I think you're over-estimating Zard's range, I don't think it's as bad as you say lol. Though maybe I've just never played a good Zard / Dedede, who knows.

Another matchup I've been finding REALLY hard recently is Greninja. The range on his Up Smash is absolutely insane. I feel like every time I approach, I'm always getting hit by that damn Up Smash, whether it be from the ground, from above, or from an angle. Also Water Shuriken, when used correctly, can be infuriating. (It's laggy, but if you get hit, you're in for a world of pain) How do you guys maneuver around Greninja? What are some tactics you've found helpful in approaching him?

 

[ZeroJanitor]

I usually either airdodge it or stay away entirely. I haven't fought a lot of really good Greninjas though so I dunno how well airdodging past it works on more advanced players

 

[LightningLuxray]

Yeah, today I fought one of the best Greninja's I've seen. He just outspaced me so well... Usually I feel like I can Nair / Fair near or even on someone's shield and get out, but not against Greninja. If I get too close, I'm eating an Up Smash.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Mmm.. How about the Dedede match-up?
I don't have problems with gordos, but his range always got me when i go for aerials.

I also think Mac just destroy everything Puffz has..

for D3 I weave in and out before trying an aerial to see what they habitually do. If they air dodge I'll bait it and delay a FF aerial or land>shield>grab/mixup
If they use their hammer disjoint I will stay just out of range then move in or at least scare them back to the edge.

LM has an immediate advantage vs jiggs since it starts with everyone grounded in neutral. we really need to work to get and keep LM off the ground but until then its a game of capitalizing on any mistake they make in their spacing,

 

[Framerate]

Diddy is practically impossible for puff. His aerials have higher priority, his side-b beats everything we got, any grab is free damage, and his uair kills at crazy percents. You can't approach him on the ground because of banana and peanut, and in the air he just shield grabs you. Probably our worst match up imo, although sonic and any other run-away character can be obnoxious as well.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Is it just me or does Jigglypuff have NOTHING good against Little Mac? His ground game outdoes Puff's air game, and even if I can get him into the air he just counters when I try to attack. I've tried baiting the counter, it doesn't seem to work very well. It seems almost impossible to even stand a chance against him without relying on mindgames and punishes, unless there's something I don't know.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Is it just me or does Jigglypuff have NOTHING good against Little Mac? His ground game outdoes Puff's air game, and even if I can get him into the air he just counters when I try to attack. I've tried baiting the counter, it doesn't seem to work very well. It seems almost impossible to even stand a chance against him without relying on mindgames and punishes, unless there's something I don't know.

I wouldn't say that, we definitely don't have the tools to force LM to approach us but I feel we do have ways to force him into a bad position.(Pound's priority is nice since it lingers abit) What exactly are you having trouble with when baiting his counter?

without platforms we can't get LM off the ground for free so mindgames and punishes are our BnBs. Much like any char, making the best use of any mistakes the opponent makes will grab plenty of momentum for you to start getting your oki game up. Mindgames are there too see what they do on reaction and to figure out their gameplan, so there's nothing wrong relying solely on that. I'm usually looking for a punish opportunity anytime during battle. Most of my gameplan is too grab momentum away from one mistake my opponent made.(as long as I do my part spacing that is.)

Interesting thing is that you can Rest an aerial haymaker on reaction as long as you get there when LM is at the top of the arc.(abit risky off-stage but it works) Not sure 'bout the grounded version, but good LMs should know how to space those.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

What exactly are you having trouble with when baiting his counter?

Either I get hit by it or can't punish before he's on the ground and can shield

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Either I get hit by it or can't punish before he's on the ground and can shield

I find that if you see them counter close to the ground it's best to fall with them. If you're getting hit by it then simply delay your attacks and spacing accordingly. If they consistently land from counter and shield soon after, then land, grab them and toss them back up or off-stage. Though if his counter frames end at any point in the air its best to capitalize off that since you're back to neutral on the ground('less there are platforms) if they roll or spotdodge when they land.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

You guys think the matchup vs. Link is terrible for Jigglypuff? At the Link boards, we think it's 60/40 in Link's favor, but I want to think its 70/30. Here are a couple matches:
Powerstar9 vs. Ben
1 - http://youtu.be/lQB-Xjep1Kc
2 - http://youtu.be/l0xTJBPh1pI
3 - http://youtu.be/2S_qqGBEXhM

What do you guys think?

 

[ZHMT]

You guys think the matchup vs. Link is terrible for Jigglypuff? At the Link boards, we think it's 60/40 in Link's favor, but I want to think its 70/30. Here are a couple matches:
Powerstar9 vs. Ben
1 - http://youtu.be/lQB-Xjep1Kc
2 - http://youtu.be/l0xTJBPh1pI
3 - http://youtu.be/2S_qqGBEXhM

What do you guys think?

Why do you think its bad? Online on the 3ds it may be worse because Jigglypuff is hindered on the 3ds more than Link is and any lag may make it more difficult for Puff to approach vs projectiles.

Link's fastest move on the ground is his jab which comes out on frame 7. This means Link suffers a lot out of shield. He has very bad out of shield options vs spaced aerials and his grab being whiffed can get him KO'd. Shield drop + Jab = 14 frames or about 1/4 of a second. If Jigglypuff spaces well, Link cant do much to prevent harassment on his shield. Not to mention if he doesnt have a bomb in hand, hes very prone to being gimped. If he does have a bomb in hand, he often taking extra damage every time hes knocked offstage.

Im not going to give this a matchup ratio of my own without a reply at least, but I can say for sure the matchup is no way 7/3 Link's advantage.

 

[drakeirving]

Ben did a really poor job at spacing and was too aggressive in his approaches, plus barely ever used shield, all of which is what led to Link being able to just attack and get hits. He also didn't punish your slower moves at all. It really was just poor play; really not a good demonstration of matchup advantage.

I dunno, I've beaten probably a good 80% of Link players I've fought, if that means anything. I'd have to get trounced by some good Links before I could make a reasoned estimate, but for the time being I wouldn't agree with 60/40. Are there any particular reasons you guys think it's that?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Why do you think its bad? Online on the 3ds it may be worse because Jigglypuff is hindered on the 3ds more than Link is and any lag may make it more difficult for Puff to approach vs projectiles.

Link's fastest move on the ground is his jab which comes out on frame 7. This means Link suffers a lot out of shield. He has very bad out of shield options vs spaced aerials and his grab being whiffed can get him KO'd. Shield drop + Jab = 14 frames or about 1/4 of a second. If Jigglypuff spaces well, Link cant do much to prevent harassment on his shield. Not to mention if he doesnt have a bomb in hand, hes very prone to being gimped. If he does have a bomb in hand, he often taking extra damage every time hes knocked offstage.

Im not going to give this a matchup ratio of my own without a reply at least, but I can say for sure the matchup is no way 7/3 Link's advantage.

From what I understand, Jiggs has a terrible ground game. Link's OoS options are pretty good against Jiggs (utilt, jab, and spin attack are quick and cover a decent distance). Projectiles pretty much screw her over because she has no way of countering them effectively besides using aerials. Link isn't as bad as you guys think. Just so you guys know, I have played against a lot of Puff players (including really good ones), and I have won 90% of those matches. I bait Puff into throwing out an aerial or air dodge, and then proceed to punish with the almighty Uair/Dair. Otherwise, I just wait until Puff touches the ground so that I can screw her over with Ftilt, shield grab, or Dash Attack. Arrows, Bombs, and Clawshot are pretty effective against her. IMO, Jiggs is a very predictable and easy character to fight. I'd want to have you guys prove me wrong, but I'm not gonna be available until the weekend.

 

[ZHMT]

From what I understand, Jiggs has a terrible ground game. Link's OoS options are pretty good against Jiggs (utilt, jab, and spin attack are quick and cover a decent distance). Projectiles pretty much screw her over because she has no way of countering them effectively besides using aerials. Link isn't as bad as you guys think. Just so you guys know, I have played against a lot of Puff players (including really good ones), and I have won 90% of those matches. I bait Puff into throwing out an aerial or air dodge, and then proceed to punish with the almighty Uair/Dair. Otherwise, I just wait until Puff touches the ground so that I can screw her over with Ftilt, shield grab, or Dash Attack. Arrows, Bombs, and Clawshot are pretty effective against her. IMO, Jiggs is a very predictable and easy character to fight. I'd want to have you guys prove me wrong, but I'm not gonna be available until the weekend.

Up tilt and jab are too slow out of shield to punish proper spaced aerials from Jigglypuff. If you are hitting with them its because the aerials are not being spaced correctly. Also his arrows are near useless vs Jigglypuff, she can crouch under them and if they are used at at close range for whatever reason they aren't safe. Bombs are mainly used for recovering, if you are holding a bomb, your options are limited, and that's not good at all, it makes attacking Links shield even safer as he cant tilt with a bomb in hand. The only usable projectile in the matchup is Gale Boomerang, that's all.

Jigglypuffs ground game is poor relative to her aerials but still aren't bad. If Jigglypuff gets in, her jab is good and has is faster than any of Links moves. Puffs ftilt is just as fast if not faster than any of Links moves as well. I'm serious, her ftilt hits frame 7 and that's tied with Link's jab.

Okay so, now about the air dodge and aerial part. Jigglypuff has no reason to air dodge vs Link. His aerials can just be evaded by moving in the air and punished for free. Links moves on the ground should be used defensively as anti-airs to protect Link from Puffs approaches. If anyone is doing the baiting its Jiggs here. Link doesn't have many tools to bait Jigglypuff.

Also dash attack is awful in the matchup, and if it hits its either from a read or a large mistake on Jiggs part. Using dash attack is just asking to be rested.

I don't think Link is a bad character. He's just awful offstage and struggles when hes forced to shield and has no escape route from being cornered. Btw, Jigglypuff is not a predictable character to fight, the players you played are.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Up tilt and jab are too slow out of shield to punish proper spaced aerials from Jigglypuff. If you are hitting with them its because the aerials are not being spaced correctly. Also his arrows are near useless vs Jigglypuff, she can crouch under them and if they are used at at close range for whatever reason they aren't safe. Bombs are mainly used for recovering, if you are holding a bomb, your options are limited, and that's not good at all, it makes attacking Links shield even safer as he cant tilt with a bomb in hand. The only usable projectile in the matchup is Gale Boomerang, that's all.

Jigglypuffs ground game is poor relative to her aerials but still aren't bad. If Jigglypuff gets in, her jab is good and has is faster than any of Links moves. Puffs ftilt is just as fast if not faster than any of Links moves as well. I'm serious, her ftilt hits frame 7 and that's tied with Link's jab.

Okay so, now about the air dodge and aerial part. Jigglypuff has no reason to air dodge vs Link. His aerials can just be evaded by moving in the air and punished for free. Links moves on the ground should be used defensively as anti-airs to protect Link from Puffs approaches. If anyone is doing the baiting its Jiggs here. Link doesn't have many tools to bait Jigglypuff.

Also dash attack is awful in the matchup, and if it hits its either from a read or a large mistake on Jiggs part. Using dash attack is just asking to be rested.

I don't think Link is a bad character. He's just awful offstage and struggles when hes forced to shield and has no escape route from being cornered. Btw, Jigglypuff is not a predictable character to fight, the players you played are.

Any vs. matches I can find that take advantage of the many traits and options Puff has that you described? I have never see them cross paths in tournaments and FG is usually full of scrubs. I don't really care at this point how bad the Link player is, I just need something we can work with.

 

[ZHMT]

Any vs. matches I can find that take advantage of the many traits and options Puff has that you described? I have never see them cross paths in tournaments and FG is usually full of scrubs. I don't really care at this point how bad the Link player is, I just need something we can work with.

Probably not since the characters are both uncommon, if you want to play sometime I will though, even though I generally avoid online play.