Difficult Matchups? - Ask Matchup Questions Here

[Meccs]

Does anyone know if Ness' bat reflect increases reflected projectiles power? If so, it might be the optimal choice for gordo reflection.

Eagleye and I have been compiling this info... the bat reflect for most things we've tested so far does 2x the % damage, but not 2x the knockback.
For DeDeDe, the key is if you hit the Gordo when it's on his hammer or not. A regular reflection off Ness' bat will do like 55% max and have the same knockback as if DeDeDe hit you with one for 55%.

 

[Kidodeath]

The bat does reflect the Villager's Rocket but it's not really safe , and when the Villager releases the PK Thunder it goes horizontally .

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Reflecting the rocket when he's recovering with it is hilarious. What you do want to reflect are his trees. It's glorious.

 

[Freikugel]

Holy hell, that just happened to me today. Five seconds left, we need that kill, and my goddamn TL partner disrupted the knockback.

Anyway, on Villager: Don't get caught in Fair combos. It doesn't do much, but it gets you off the stage with a Villager's good edgeguarding. Dsmash to Usmash hurts, too. PK Fire does consistent damage to the tree, so it works to your advantage anyway if it lands on him or not. Dair doesn't spike (I mean, it can), Uair can juggle if Villager's precise enough. You should not get hit by that bowling ball, and that's that.

There isn't any special trick to beating him, IIRC. Villagers sometimes overshoot the ledge while recovering, and of course Sideb is easy to read; it's easy to punish.

 

[Luco]

I find Villager is one of our easier matchups with a solid advantage in our favour.

His rocket can easily be reflected because it's so slow, and while he can pocket it, using it again won't do anything for him: it will be slow to start like his normal rocket and nothing really special comes out of it afaik. In the meantime if he spams other rockets you can usually feel free to bat them away. That is, unless he's approaching you aerially as this is happening. On the ground he'll have to shield if you reflect it but if he approaches from the air he will punish your Fsmash with a Dair. If you see him jump into the air after releasing the rocket, forget about reflecting it and go for Villager.

Villager is someone who kinda suffers from range a bit too much I feel. He/she has some nice moves but we honestly just beat the Villager out most of the time. If Villager can't camp, he's rarely an issue. We can both nullify his camp game and beat him up close. I've faced quite a few villagers, not any competitive ones though so there may be stuff i'm missing, but i'd be surprised if this MU was any more even than +1/-1 our favour.

 

[JML]

Not really because bat is unsafe and a little laggy. I think Killager can eat his reflected Rocket back.

Then you need bat practice. lol. To be honest. I try to reflect it back when I can, because it usually reflects back really quickly. Do it a few times, and all the villagers I've played have stopped using it to attack because they know I can just reflect.

Also, reflect villager riding on rocket = awesome gimp. :3

When s/he pockets PK Thunder, does s/he release it horizontally?
I've never had issues with the Lloyd spam from Villager with any character, but I don't know how it would differ from Ness. Have you guys tried reflecting the rocket with bat and using it as a safe approach?

From my memory, Pocketed PK thunder just shoots forward.

I have some little problems against the Villager (campinggg) I think he's difficult to approach

Short Hop NAIR approach usually works fine for me or slowly approaching while shielding for the spammy ones. If you get close enough you can PK jump as an option. Once you get him in the air, Ness's air/gimping game is great with the Fair. mix it up with some pkt2 and never approach him from below. His turnips have way too much priority.

Villager is someone who kinda suffers from range a bit too much I feel. He/she has some nice moves but we honestly just beat the Villager out most of the time. If Villager can't camp, he's rarely an issue. We can both nullify his camp game and beat him up close. I've faced quite a few villagers, not any competitive ones though so there may be stuff i'm missing, but i'd be surprised if this MU was any more even than +1/-1 our favour.

Yeah, I think MU is probably just what you said. Seems evenly balanced or slightly to our own advantage.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

The batvcan reflect almost ANYTHING. Me and my goons have been testing, it doubles the damage too. Like a samus beam, not dins fire.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Ok not everything like samus missles explode but you dont take damage, no link bombs or toon link bombs, no bomb-ombs

 

[Luco]

I reckon you're not hitting some of them at the right time. Samus' missiles can be reflected with ease and i've done it plenty of time. Same with TL's bombs.

I even think you'd be able to time it on Din's fire in the same way you were able to reflect Ness' PK Flash in Brawl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL17H3TO3h8

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I reckon you're not hitting some of them at the right time. Samus' missiles can be reflected with ease and i've done it plenty of time. Same with TL's bombs.

I even think you'd be able to time it on Din's fire in the same way you were able to reflect Ness' PK Flash in Brawl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL17H3TO3h8

Holy shrimp. I DIDNOTEVENTESTTHAT. Im going to test dins fire and maybe upload it to youtube

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

It isn't quite working as I'd like it to. But it's getting there. Btw Samus drop bombs are like baseballs LeoLeo

 

[Luco]

It isn't quite working as I'd like it to. But it's getting there. Btw Samus drop bombs are like baseballs LeoLeo

I feel against Zelda it's generally better to absorb Din's thankfully, just because she's rarely in a position where reflecting it will actually hit her. :o

 

[Hukster]

I feel Ness' major difficult matchups from what I've experienced are most of the zoners. (Toon Link, Duck Hunt, etc). Other than like Mega Man, which is probably even or in Ness' favor.

Other MUs I feel that Ness might struggle with are Rosalina, Sheik, and Greninja.

I am not 100% sure though, this is just what I feel.

 

[Snerp]

Any advice against character's you're forced to approach due to projectile spam/camping (Toon Link, Shiek, Rosa)?
I feel like all of my approaches just get out prioritized or I just get shield grabbed.

 

[Luco]

Sheik is a match-up i'm also trying to deal with, it's hard and requires patience and a lot of concentration on the close-range game.

Rosalina should be forced to approach us unless she's timing/spacing her luma absolutely perfectly and starbits are frustrating the hell out of you (which is very hard for her to do consistently), Luma can be batted away and PK fired. That said Rosi is an annoying MU as well and also requires a bit of concentration.

Toon Link on the other hand is okay. You can often play and sometimes beat him at his own camping game with reflecting projectiles but if he's good enough this won't be an option and you will be forced to approach. Thankfully our aerial game is considerably better than his and you want to abuse the heck out of you OoS options as well as avoiding grabs. The good thing about TL is that it's a bit hard to get in but once you do you generally get him into combos that do more than his camping ever will.

Duck hunt duo's camping game is weird. His can can't really be reflected for anything useful and it's hard to reflect, but his clay shooting on the other hand is fantastic to reflect and should annoy him quite a bit. He's another character who, once you get in isn't a problem, or else he's doing the same damage to himself as he is to you.



I know it sounds like i'm overly focusing on the bat to reflect stuff but in some match-ups it actually is a lifesaver hahaha. If you're getting too much pressure for it to be viable though, it generally means they're approaching you and our close in game is rather nice, so switch to that and try to punish stuff and it should be good.

 

[Meccs]

reflecting stuff with the bat will also be a lot easier once we can use the GC controller.

 

[Maysoon]

Good Bowser players are a pain to deal with.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I understand sheik, sometimes players dont go in, instead the camp needles, which are op in this game. You can't absorb them and you don't spot doge them? I don't know what to do? Well right when sheik throws needles double jump rit after the double forward b

 

[Kidodeath]

Greninja is kind of a problem he's really fast and I still don't understand the distance of his Neutral-B so it's really hard to reflect it with the bat . (His aerials are great)

I'm okay with Sheik , just be patient and the Nair really is nice against her you can break combos for exemple . But it's true that sometimes it's kinda hard .

 

[Furil]

I have an embarrassing problem as of late. I cannot beat a single Ganondorf
It's less of Ness issue, as I can't beat him with my other characters either, but Ness is the one that can do the best.

I have no problem with characters like Shiek, Duck Hunt, or even the Links, but Gannon shuts me down.

Basically, I can't PK Fire from any angle, as he will do that choke thing. I can't stay near the edge, as he will choke and push me off stage with it. I can't shield, as he will choke.
I can't PK Thunder 2 ever, as he will use the punch attack and cancel it. If I PK Thunder in the air, he just wait with the punch.
I can't run toward him and Fair, as he will choke. If I try to dodge, then I'm in for an up-tilt?
The last attempt I made was to try and roll to get near, but what do you know, he chokes me...
If I get him in the air, he does a fast fall down air, I think? It breaks my shield if I try to get near him to grab.

So tips on approaching him?

The best way to handle a jumpy-needly Shiek I've found is to move really fast. Ironically, staying in the air seems to be useful to me with Shiek. Nair whenever she goes for an aerial attack, then look for that grab to kill.

 

[Freikugel]

I have an embarrassing problem as of late. I cannot beat a single Ganondorf
It's less of Ness issue, as I can't beat him with my other characters either, but Ness is the one that can do the best.

I have no problem with characters like Shiek, Duck Hunt, or even the Links, but Gannon shuts me down.

Basically, I can't PK Fire from any angle, as he will do that choke thing. I can't stay near the edge, as he will choke and push me off stage with it. I can't shield, as he will choke.
I can't PK Thunder 2 ever, as he will use the punch attack and cancel it. If I PK Thunder in the air, he just wait with the punch.
I can't run toward him and Fair, as he will choke. If I try to dodge, then I'm in for an up-tilt?
The last attempt I made was to try and roll to get near, but what do you know, he chokes me...
If I get him in the air, he does a fast fall down air, I think? It breaks my shield if I try to get near him to grab.

Ganondorf's Flame Choke/side-B has pitiful range. Ideally, it should only be used for punishing, as it'll grow stale and predictable after a while. Anyway, try recognizing patterns and predicting it. To my memory, there's a bit of start up at the beginning, so that's a telltale, especially if he does it from a distance. Since you're getting caught in up-tilt, it's more beneficial to roll and PK Fire/Dash attack.

Don't use PKT2 on the stage unless you're absolutely certain you can punish Ganondorf in the time it takes to execute the attack. I'll admit I have a nasty habit of abusing PKT2 for some risky maneuvers. You can bait him with a couple of methods. One is firing PKT2 in a way that seems easily punishable, then quickly evading and comboing or tossing him off the stage. Another is if he rushes at you, and you expect contact. Activate PKT and hit him with the beginning tail, then land a PKT2. Accuracy really doesn't matter at such close quarters, but to avoid being punished, stun him once more before executing PKT2.

I don't recommend these at all, but sometimes it's a really cheap way of scoring early kills. It's more effective with slow characters like Ganondorf. (I really wish Ness got full-on armor throughout PK Thunder's duration.)

Now, if you're edgeguarding with PK Thunder, it's best to just slap him with the tail. Dark Dive requires momentum to actually recover, so halting his movement while he's drifting back to the stage is detrimental. And Flame Choke's horizontal recovery is equally bad. If he goes for the ledge like most smart people, hit him with a diagonal PK Fire mid-animation to stunt, then knock him back with whatever.

Ganondorf suffers from awful off-stage recovery, so in no circumstance should you ever find him above you (unless you're recovering, of course). It's obvious when he vies for a spike, so air dodge jump into the stage will involuntarily put him in the air.
----

Okay... I'm having issues with ROB and Yoshi. I faced this ROB last night, and all he did was spam Arm Rotor. I'm really afraid of it breaking my shield, so I feel I have to take the hits, and it even reflects my PK Fire and Thunder. Can't sidestep, either. I almost lost. Now that I think of it, I should've really reflected his Gyros and absorbed his beams. Any tips, other than that? How to combat Arm Rotor? :/

And Yoshi I have a straight, flat-out problem with. Projectile games with Egg Throw, can't get near easily with Egg Throw, really powerful down aerial, good grab and aerial game, a lot of KO moves... And all the players are really, really cocky. Help maybe? ;p

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Ganondorf's Flame Choke/side-B has pitiful range. Ideally, it should only be used for punishing, as it'll grow stale and predictable after a while. Anyway, try recognizing patterns and predicting it. To my memory, there's a bit of start up at the beginning, so that's a telltale, especially if he does it from a distance. Since you're getting caught in up-tilt, it's more beneficial to roll and PK Fire/Dash attack.

Don't use PKT2 on the stage unless you're absolutely certain you can punish Ganondorf in the time it takes to execute the attack. I'll admit I have a nasty habit of abusing PKT2 for some risky maneuvers. You can bait him with a couple of methods. One is firing PKT2 in a way that seems easily punishable, then quickly evading and comboing or tossing him off the stage. Another is if he rushes at you, and you expect contact. Activate PKT and hit him with the beginning tail, then land a PKT2. Accuracy really doesn't matter at such close quarters, but to avoid being punished, stun him once more before executing PKT2.

I don't recommend these at all, but sometimes it's a really cheap way of scoring early kills. It's more effective with slow characters like Ganondorf. (I really wish Ness got full-on armor throughout PK Thunder's duration.)

Now, if you're edgeguarding with PK Thunder, it's best to just slap him with the tail. Dark Dive requires momentum to actually recover, so halting his movement while he's drifting back to the stage is detrimental. And Flame Choke's horizontal recovery is equally bad. If he goes for the ledge like most smart people, hit him with a diagonal PK Fire mid-animation to stunt, then knock him back with whatever.

Ganondorf suffers from awful off-stage recovery, so in no circumstance should you ever find him above you (unless you're recovering, of course). It's obvious when he vies for a spike, so air dodge jump into the stage will involuntarily put him in the air.
----

Okay... I'm having issues with ROB and Yoshi. I faced this ROB last night, and all he did was spam Arm Rotor. I'm really afraid of it breaking my shield, so I feel I have to take the hits, and it even reflects my PK Fire and Thunder. Can't sidestep, either. I almost lost. Now that I think of it, I should've really reflected his Gyros and absorbed his beams. Any tips, other than that? How to combat Arm Rotor? :/

And Yoshi I have a straight, flat-out problem with. Projectile games with Egg Throw, can't get near easily with Egg Throw, really powerful down aerial, good grab and aerial game, a lot of KO moves... And all the players are really, really cocky. Help maybe? ;p

Yoshi can sometimes be a problem but Yoshi players (like me) can have a hard time approaching after getting them to a high percentage. Play the waiting game and pk thunder a lot. Try a forward air to neutral air combo to kill. If you can approach try a a charged down or up smash it won't kill but it help. For ROB well use aireals to start combos. I really don't know how to handle rob.....

 

[R e d X]

I've always honestly felt like Rosa-Ness was pretty terrible for Ness, I've played a few pretty decent ones (though probably none at the top level), and never really struggled all that much. Would be pretty curious to fight a few Ness players experienced at the Rosa MU if any are up for it, to see what Ness can do that a lot of the ones that I've played haven't been

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I've always honestly felt like Rosa-Ness was pretty terrible for Ness, I've played a few pretty decent ones (though probably none at the top level), and never really struggled all that much. Would be pretty curious to fight a few Ness players experienced at the Rosa MU if any are up for it, to see what Ness can do that a lot of the ones that I've played haven't been

two words "I AGREE".

 

[NessAtc.]

For whatever reason, Mario/Doc always gives me trouble online.
As mentioned before, Greninja has a lot of good counters to all of Ness's moves as well. I haven't had much trouble with Rosalina myself, since I already know the habits of the typical Rosa player.

 

[Luco]

Rosa makes Ness recovery at silly angles. But he can kinda do it, and the MU is fine for us on stage.

NAKAT versed Dabuz recently, though the matches I saw were doubles so they wouldn't be the best indicator, but he was recovering early to stop her edge-guards and got away with it 99% percent of the time. :o

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I've beem gimping a lot of people with fair to dair, but in this game his fair timing has changed pls help?

 

[RicoStealth]

I have trouble with Ganondorf oddly enough. His Side B into Dtilt?(the low forward kick) combo is monstrous. all he needs are a few hits to destroy a Ness. Any one else fall victim to that combo?

 

[RicoStealth]

Learn to avoid grabs? Honestly. You can punish his running grabs with a pika-fire if you're spaced well enough. Then I would either dash-A attack or down grab + fair + fair.

Most of the C.Falcons I've played as Ness tended to fall into the same habits, so when you're recovering in the air, learn when he normally tries to connect a hit and dodge then, especially since his moves tend to have one sweet spot only. That's more general advice haha.

I would say don't engage him in aerial combat when you're recovering. Especially because his moves have so much priority. You're going to have to play a little safer with him and punish his mistakes with your aerials/throws.

Also, short hops will jump over his grounded falcon kick. So if you're hopping a lot, he'll probably miss. I usually follow up grounded falcon kicks with a short hop + bair if I'm close enough.

Also once you get far enough from him, and he's recovering I would recommend using pikathunder to chase him and juggle him. This way you can stay away from his higher priority aerials and rack up some nice damage or a lucky KO.

So I have noticed that the Dthrow+Fair combo is easily escapable now (unless its just me) but a quick hop after the Dthrow and they can avoid the Fair. Anyone else had this happen to them?

 

[Redline!]

If you can bait/force a Villager to recover with Lloyd, and you're not a total incompetent, it's basically a guaranteed kill via bat-reflect.

While the bat IS laggy, its reflect range extends foreward invisibly by more than a character-width from the tip of the bat, so you've got better chances of success if you release the bat EARLY, rather than playing chicken.

 

[Unkie Mike]

I have trouble with Ganondorf oddly enough. His Side B into Dtilt?(the low forward kick) combo is monstrous. all he needs are a few hits to destroy a Ness. Any one else fall victim to that combo?

You can tech the impact of the choke the instant you hit the stage and avoid the dtilt, but it's very difficult to time, especially online.

 

[Freikugel]

As others have said, Mario is a really tough opponent. His Cape deters PK Fire and dash attack combo starters, and also wards off Thunder edgeguarding. Initiating air battles is difficult with his U-air juggling abilities. D-smash makes it hard to get close at high percents, and punishes excessive roll dodging. B-air for retaliation can send you off-stage, but Mario's subpar edgeguarding and unreliable spike makes that insignificant. But all the Marios I've faced are real good at predicting my getting back on the stage and F-smashing accordingly. F-smash and D-smash are basically Mario's best kill moves...

And Zelda just straight up cheats with her goddamn Farore's Wind. Imagine it without the tracker function.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

My worst match ups with my man Ness is Rosaluma and Captain Falcon. Everyone else I can kind of deal with okay. That damn Luma just gets on my nerves!

Hate the fact I can't land dair for **** now, too. But comboing his fair from a down throw is so much fun!

 

[thesage]

Mario is incredibly easy to edgeguard. His up-b trades with nair.

 

[Kidney Thief]

Only matchup I've had trouble with so far is Falcon which is fine by me since I can swich to Marth for him

 

[Eagleye893]

Rosaluma is a dumb character.

Several safe attacks and grab range that help to make luma literally always in the game.
luma itself makes approaching from the ground impossible, and aerial approaches are even worse by virtue of ness' poor downward coverage.
Grounded PK Fire is useless because of the dash-attack (it goes over it). I'm also pretty sure she can dash over it.
You can't approach because of the disjoints.

Our only saving grace is NAir

 

[kennypu]

Rosaluma is a dumb character.

Several safe attacks and grab range that help to make luma literally always in the game.
luma itself makes approaching from the ground impossible, and aerial approaches are even worse by virtue of ness' poor downward coverage.
Grounded PK Fire is useless because of the dash-attack (it goes over it). I'm also pretty sure she can dash over it.
You can't approach because of the disjoints.

Our only saving grace is NAir

I hate that match up too. fortunately, keep in mind that luma being there means that you get to pull off guaranteed pk fire pillars. luma will stay stuck there too so you can approach rosa while luma is there, or you can finish him off (although he will appear in 8 seconds again).

The worst thing about the match up is all her disjointed aerials and tilts, which don't really produce much knockback, but enough to put you in really bad positions off stage, or worse, take your jump away, in which case that is a guaranteed stock if your opponent knows what they're doing.

You can't even rely on pk thunder to camp, since that down b covers so much ground, and she can spam it.

Ness's best kill move which is his back throw becomes much harder to pull off as well.

 

[PK Tripping]

Anyone have tips for dealing with sonic? 90 percent of the time if I find one online, he spams the crap out of the homing attack, and I'm just nor sure how to approach it.

 

[Freikugel]

Anyone have tips for dealing with sonic? 90 percent of the time if I find one online, he spams the crap out of the homing attack, and I'm just nor sure how to approach it.

Shield and dodge. Sonic's main combo starters are so readable it's not even funny. His only other kill move aside from U-air and stalling you while you're recovering is his Side smash, which is also fairly slow. As long as you don't overshoot PKT2 or have your edge roll read, you're almost guaranteed to come back.

As for approaching on the ground... There's nothing really special to say. Feinting dash attacks does reliable chip damage, gets him in the air, and potentially leads you into combos; PK Fire as good as always. I can't remember if PK Thunder, Fire and Nair disrupts his specials (PK Fire cancels Jigglypuff's Rollout and Yoshi's Egg Roll, two similar moves), so you can catch him offguard.

I guess the closest thing to compare it is a battle of attrition.
----
Thanks, thesage. Fought a couple of Marios and somehow I pulled through. Does Dr. Mario have worse recovery than regular Mario? I f-throw both of them at around 70%, and Mario has a solid chance of returning (without edgeguarding) whereas I don't even have to touch Dr. for him to fail. Hmm.

 

[Mysteltainn]

Shield and dodge. Sonic's main combo starters are so readable it's not even funny. His only other kill move aside from U-air and stalling you while you're recovering is his Side smash, which is also fairly slow. As long as you don't overshoot PKT2 or have your edge roll read, you're almost guaranteed to come back.

As for approaching on the ground... There's nothing really special to say. Feinting dash attacks does reliable chip damage, gets him in the air, and potentially leads you into combos; PK Fire as good as always. I can't remember if PK Thunder, Fire and Nair disrupts his specials (PK Fire cancels Jigglypuff's Rollout), so you can catch him offguard.

I guess the closest thing to compare it is a battle of attrition.
----
Thanks, thesage. Fought a couple of Marios and somehow I pulled through. Does Dr. Mario have worse recovery than regular Mario? I f-throw both of them at around 70%, and Mario has a solid chance of returning (without edgeguarding) whereas I don't even have to touch Dr. for him to fail. Hmm.

Yeah, Dr. Mario's recovery is considerably worse than Mario's. It's almost as bad as Little Mac levels. His U-Special is quite a bit shorter, and even with D-Special (Tornado), he is still vulnerable, because if his momentum is slowed (PKT camping), it'll take him almost nowhere and he'll just fall.