Difficult Matchups? - Ask Matchup Questions Here

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

This is really interesting. What do they say about the matchup? Perhaps it's because we have an easy time cracking Luma?


Bowser super armors PK Fire? I know he gets super armor at lower percents, but I've never seen one power through PK Fire because of its multiple hitboxes.

Dude I've had bowsers run right through pk fire. Even his dsmash the back part

 

[Code Bread]

Dude I've had bowsers run right through pk fire. Even his dsmash the back part

Weird. I've hit Bowsers at 0% with PK Fire and they feel the burn.

 

[Meccs]

I could swear I've had Bowsers just truck right through PK Fire with nothing other than damage.

 

[perroloco]

I have had a lot of problems with Greninja, all the other characters have been more or less manageable.

 

[Code Bread]

You guys are probably right about the super armor and I was probably being delusional. Next time I face a Bowser, I'll pay closer attention.

 

[Luco]

They feel our PK Fire and general ground game is very good at getting rid of Luma and actually damaging Rosalina. I also personally suspect we have stuff in the air but the person I was talking to didn't seem to think that was the case. I don't really know to be honest.

I've come up against a total wall though. I think Sheik is a bad match-up for us. She outcamps us on the ground, has guaranteed strings that we can't really avoid and her aerials often outrange ours. She can mess with us off stage as well as on stage and we find it hard to hit her back. I want to slam my head into a wall after playing this match-up against a good Sheik player, it's so frustrating. The only good news is our grab game is better than hers and I suspect that if you can get a bit closer and it's not so laggy then it's not quite so debilitating for us; however she can still just sit there and throw needles all the time, one of the few MUs in this game where projectile camping seems to seriously seriously affect the MU. >.<

 

[Code Bread]

I think our aerials are better too. Not sure if this is the case, but it seems like a lot of Rosalina's aerials are clunky and punishable. I suppose we can get rid of Luma efficiently, but the very presence of Luma throws off our game more so.

I think in the case of Sheik, it because a question of how perfect your spacing is. I mean, you always want to go for the perfect spacing, but it really matters in this MU. Her strings can really mess us up, but I feel like it can be hard to catch us in them. The only aerial that we have to really dent them, imo, is fair. It tacks damage on fast, has a largely disjointed hitbox, and that knockback pushes far. What you should focus on against Sheiks is dissecting their habits and punishing them. Don't approach. Grab combo as much as you can, even if it's stale. Someone should probably disagree with me here, because I kind of feel like I'm talking out of my ass here.

 

[Eagleye893]

Okay, Greninja is just annoying. The speed of the uncharged shuriken makes it impossible to reflect, and because you can't absorb it you just have to wade around. His smashes (especially USmash) have such good speed and range that people can just spam it and not really care. His rolls are quick. His DAir has good range, and we can't really hit him out of it (though if you're good at reacting, you can shield the hit from the side and grab before he jumps back up). His UpB is quick and pushes you away, which can also destroy our recovery if the greninja is smart.

The matchup is so much of "play safe and move around the dumb stuff" because of how predictable everything is, but Wifi lag makes it so I can't get my shield up in time or I have slight technical errors in my turn-around smashes/ftilt or whatever on the ground.

EDIT: also, certain stages should be banned with greninja on them because you can't see the shadow on them. This is only the omega form of certain stages though.

 

[New_Dumal]

I play against a great Bowser today ..
While I lose too much, I still think the MU Bowser x Pit is uncertain...
It's probably going to be at Bowser favor , but is not anything stupid.

But Rosalina... I have problems fighting good Rosalina with ANY characther I tried.
Pit x Rosalina, Very Hard.
Mario x Rosalina , Very Hard.
Sheik x Rosalina, Hard.
Ike x Rosalina, OMG Hard.
And now I'm reading that Ness has serious problems with her too ?

I know I'm maybe overating her a little but... It's just me?
I think she , without Luma and her specials, is better than more than half of the cast.
She has counters at all ? I suffer just too much with any x Rosalina MU.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

I play against a great Bowser today ..
While I lose too much, I still think the MU Bowser x Pit is uncertain...
It's probably going to be at Bowser favor , but is not anything stupid.

But Rosalina... I have problems fighting good Rosalina with ANY characther I tried.
Pit x Rosalina, Very Hard.
Mario x Rosalina , Very Hard.
Sheik x Rosalina, Hard.
Ike x Rosalina, OMG Hard.
And now I'm reading that Ness has serious problems with her too ?

I know I'm maybe overating her a little but... It's just me?
I think she , without Luma and her specials, is better than more than half of the cast.
She has counters at all ? I suffer just too much with any x Rosalina MU.

Ive never had any problems with Rosa, ill ussally just get the luma on fire and then gimp rosa. He recovery is amazing but once you figure how it works back ar or foraed smash

 

[Luco]

The matchup is so much of "play safe and move around the dumb stuff" because of how predictable everything is, but Wifi lag makes it so I can't get my shield up in time or I have slight technical errors in my turn-around smashes/ftilt or whatever on the ground.

EDIT: also, certain stages should be banned with greninja on them because you can't see the shadow on them. This is only the omega form of certain stages though.

Yeah we've already banned some of our omega stages in my region for that exact reason.

But the first part is exactly how I feel about Sheik ahah.

I'd like to try punishing her games with grab more. It's a MU I feel will become a lot better without lag present, but in the meantime it's just hard to do anything with. Grrrr, frustrating.

 

[Meccs]

Okay, Greninja is just annoying. The speed of the uncharged shuriken makes it impossible to reflect, and because you can't absorb it you just have to wade around. His smashes (especially USmash) have such good speed and range that people can just spam it and not really care. His rolls are quick. His DAir has good range, and we can't really hit him out of it (though if you're good at reacting, you can shield the hit from the side and grab before he jumps back up). His UpB is quick and pushes you away, which can also destroy our recovery if the greninja is smart.

The matchup is so much of "play safe and move around the dumb stuff" because of how predictable everything is, but Wifi lag makes it so I can't get my shield up in time or I have slight technical errors in my turn-around smashes/ftilt or whatever on the ground.

EDIT: also, certain stages should be banned with greninja on them because you can't see the shadow on them. This is only the omega form of certain stages though.

Greninja is my secondary, been playing him a lot more lately. The uncharged shurikens are devastating for Ness. Its very hard for Ness to put pressure on Greninja. I wouldn't worry about Dair tbh, it's rather predictable, and Greninja goes right back up after. Try using PK Thunder right after you shield it (iirc). Greninja is so quick that I can't recommend using grounded PK Fire, because you WILL get punished with a dash attack or even a Dsmash or Usmash if you miss or he shields it.

I'd suggest a lot of Fair and Nair in this matchup. I think Ness can do a good job once Greninja is off the edge with Fair- Hydro Pump is fast but still pretty predictable. I'll post some more thoughts on this matchup later. But as Ness, I don't really like it, and that's primarily because of the Water Shuriken.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

In a totally unrelated manner greninja is one of the best match ups against rosa

 

[Uffe]

I officially hate Yoshi. Bowser is getting there.

 

[Snerp]

Anyone have any tips for the D3 and Yoshi matchup. I feel like the only thing I can do is Nair and pray PK Fire hits.

Any tips at all are welcome.

 

[Code Bread]

I'm also getting the feeling that Yoshi is a tough matchup, now that I'm thinking about my Yoshi matches. I haven't had the matchup in a while, though...

What about Dedede is a difficult matchup?
Also, can we discuss the Greninja MU? There have been multiple people asking for advice on it but I don't think anyone has responded to them. I don't know the matchup at all so I can't help.

 

[Uffe]

I honestly feel like Ness has been nerfed. People say he's better this time around, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I just suck.

 

[Code Bread]

I honestly feel like Ness has been nerfed. People say he's better this time around, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I just suck.

Maybe you do just suck. Or maybe you're right. We'll see once the meta develops, but honestly, I don't see him being higher than mid-tier. For now, sorry you can't get into him.

 

[Snerp]

d3 just seems to grab me all the time into combos. also gordos are an absolute pain.

 

[Code Bread]

Not to be condescending, but isn't getting grabbed a bunch something you need to work on personally? I can see how gordos are a huge problem, though.

 

[Luco]

I honestly feel like Ness has been nerfed. People say he's better this time around, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I just suck.

Ness has gotten subtle changes to his design in a character where most people have been severely nerfed. He no longer gets destroyed by CGs and his recovery is much harder to take out, so naturally his Brawl issues have mainly been mitigated.

Additionally, his Fair has even more combo potential than it ever did previously and guarantess Ness combos that most of the cast can only really drool at. A PK Fire --> Dthrow ---> Fair + Fair + Uair is like 40/50% and as long as the PK Fire hits, is guaranteed or near-guaramteed on quite a large portion of the cast.

His range and spacing ability is slightly nerfed but tbh everyone's has so it's not that big a deal. Dair has been nerfed but is great for covering the ledge when peeps are trying to get on and his Bair looks nerfed but it's actually pretty much the same as Brawl, it just doesn't stop the game for a split second anymore to let everyone within 5 kilometres know you got a Bair on someone (soz I already used this joke but it's too good!)

Anywho, I haven't played against a good Greninja yet.

I was going to try and classify Ness' top tier MUs but I don't think I have the knowledge yet to do so. :o

 

[thesage]

Ness' nair outprioritizes or trades with almost all of sheik's aerials besides uair and dair I think.

 

[Meccs]

My gameplan against Yoshi currently:
Uh.... Nair. Throw in a few more Nairs, and make sure to get a couple Nairs in before you're ready to use another Nair, for good measure. Get in their head by switching it up with a Nair here and there, and then finish it all off with a Nair.

 

[L9999]

My gameplan against Yoshi currently:
Uh.... Nair. Throw in a few more Nairs, and make sure to get a couple Nairs in before you're ready to use another Nair, for good measure. Get in their head by switching it up with a Nair here and there, and then finish it all off with a Nair.

And if you want to recover use a rising Nair?

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

And if you want to recover use a rising Nair?

Try finishing it with back airs

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

UHHhh.. how would ness do against mewtwo (when he comes as in).

 

[thesage]

UHHhh.. how would ness do against mewtwo (when he comes as in).

It's impossible to talk about a matchup with a character we have no info about. Ness has changed a lot since melee, so the same will probably happen to Mewtwo.

 

[Kidodeath]

I have some little problems against the Villager (campinggg) I think he's difficult to approach

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Not to be condescending, but isn't getting grabbed a bunch something you need to work on personally? I can see how gordos are a huge problem, though.

Do none of Ness's aerials hit gordo back?

 

[Code Bread]

Do none of Ness's aerials hit gordo back?

Bair, dair, and uair probably work. Nair's hitbox is probably too small. I don't know.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Bair, dair, and uair probably work. Nair's hitbox is probably too small. I don't know.

Nair works too just tested

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Bair, dair, and uair probably work. Nair's hitbox is probably too small. I don't know.

Fair might work, I'll need to test it.

 

[Meccs]

Fairs works but only at a specific part (you have to really close, iirc. like the farther hitboxes wont reflect it.) and I wouldnt suggest using it to reflect gordos, its kind of tough.

 

[Kidodeath]

Fair might work, I'll need to test it.

Actually all aerials works and Fair is really hard to hit gordos back

 

[L9999]

It's impossible to talk about a matchup with a character we have no info about. Ness has changed a lot since melee, so the same will probably happen to Mewtwo.

It shall be interesting considering that both Ness and Mewtwo are garbage tier in Melee.

 

[Code Bread]

I kind of assumed because fair's multiple hitboxes have no knockback they wouldn't reflect. Just a guess.

Does anyone know if Ness' bat reflect increases reflected projectiles power? If so, it might be the optimal choice for gordo reflection.

I have some little problems against the Villager (campinggg) I think he's difficult to approach

Does anyone have any advice here? I haven't come across any villagers while using Ness. What kind of projectiles do Villagers spam in this matchup?

 

[L9999]

I kind of assumed because fair's multiple hitboxes have no knockback they wouldn't reflect. Just a guess.

Does anyone know if Ness' bat reflect increases reflected projectiles power? If so, it might be the optimal choice for gordo reflection.

Does anyone have any advice here? I haven't come across any villagers while using Ness. What kind of projectiles do Villagers spam in this matchup?

The Rocket and F-Air. They are annoying. PK Fire stops Rocket but Killager can eat PK Thunder camp. Even though he/she can't use it like Ness can.

 

[Code Bread]

When s/he pockets PK Thunder, does s/he release it horizontally?
I've never had issues with the Lloyd spam from Villager with any character, but I don't know how it would differ from Ness. Have you guys tried reflecting the rocket with bat and using it as a safe approach?

 

[L9999]

When s/he pockets PK Thunder, does s/he release it horizontally?
I've never had issues with the Lloyd spam from Villager with any character, but I don't know how it would differ from Ness. Have you guys tried reflecting the rocket with bat and using it as a safe approach?

Not really because bat is unsafe and a little laggy. I think Killager can eat his reflected Rocket back.

 

[Code Bread]

True, bat is extremely laggy in this game. I don't see why it would be unsafe, though. Rocket is slow and you always see it coming. I think Villager's ability to eat anything would be more of an issue than his camp game. I don't even know why I'm talking about this; I have no Villager experience.