Did they reduce the landing lag?

[Deleted member 245254]

The large disparity in landing lag is the issue. No one is expecting universal lag on all attacks a la Z-canceling in 64, just landing lag that is practical rather than becoming a big disadvantage yet again.

Well that's not an issue. You just want it to be. Honestly, anyone feels this is the one who's bringing salt to the table. Again you addressed landing lag as if it's universal in Smash 4 and it's not. It's only applied to certain characters and in some cases certain attacks. If aerial landing lag puts your panties in a bunch, pick a character with very little of it like Sheik, Mario, or apparently Lucina. Landing lag is going to be part of our risk reward system now, and that's perfect. You will fail to make this out to be objectively a bad thing for the game. In fact, I think most people don't even fully understand this well enough yet, and are only hating on it because they think that aerials just universally all have bad landing lag thus preventing combo potential, when that's not even the case. You know who creates that misinterpretation? The raving Melee fans.

Understand that when an aerial already has a fair amount of startup and/or recovery frames and then you touch down, copious amounts of landing lag punishes you for using it twice over. That's not balance. Never has been in the history of the franchise.

Neither has ledge trumping, but guess what, this is a new game and is subject to the possible addition of new mechanics and balance points. Showing your "it needs to be like Melee" side a little much here by acting like Sakurai has zero room for innovation.

Smash 4 is going to be it's own game, and I'm tired of the Melee 4ever camp attempting to stifle the huge leaps the series will make with Smash 4 by making it a clone (and I thought none of us liked clones in Smash?).

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I'm kinda miffed that people complain to me when I want things like tech to be easier, yet lots of people are complaining that it's too hard to deal with different amounts of landing lag depending on character/move. If anything, I personally don't mind various amounts of landing lag on moves, because, as some people have mentioned, it acts as a balance. Not everything can be turned into a hyper-fast combo. You're forced to think, forced to adapt.

It's kind of my issue with people complaining about the Mii Fighters because they can have alternate moves with their B attacks. I welcome that kind of a challenge, not knowing what's coming and being forced to adapt on the fly to whatever my opponent throws at me. Other people complain because they see it as a disadvantage.

I guess for me, I'd much rather have increased mental difficulty than tech difficulty, but that's neither here, nor there.

TL;DR: I actually kind of like variable landing lag; adds a bit of balance and mental strategy to the party.

 

[CaptainCrisb]

So... uh... I hate to be "that guy" but... did they reduce the landing lag?

 

[Zeallyx]

The problem with massive landing lag is that it promotes defensive play. This, in a game that might already have rediculous defense options might pose a problem imo. When attacking isn't rewarded (by not being able to combo the opponent for good damage, for example) and is maybe even discouraged, it might turn into more of a waiting game instead of a more offensive game. That's also my biggest gripe with Brawl.

To each their own though, of course.

 

[Saikyoshi]

So... uh... I hate to be "that guy" but... did they reduce the landing lag?

At points. It varies by character now as a balance point. Mario and Shiek get back up near-immediately while Robin and Sonic are at Brawl-level.

 

[TerminalMontage]

Whoa, Lucina recovers from that Nair so quickly!

 

[Zeallyx]

At points. It varies by character now as a balance point. Mario and Shiek get back up near-immediately while Robin and Sonic are at Brawl-level.

'Brawl-level' is a misleading term: there were also autocancel'd aerials in Brawl.

 

[TimeSmash]

Too much lag worries me a bit just in what it means in terms of the overall metagame. There are people who liked Brawl's more think-it-out sort of style, but I do like the aggro style of Melee and Pm more. Having large amounts of it exist is both good and bad--you prevent some characters from being OP, but you can also make several less viable

 

[Saikyoshi]

'Brawl-level' is a misleading term: there were also autocancel'd aerials in Brawl.

Not often, though - only at the beginning/end frame of an animation. I mean the Brawl-level that Brawl's typically known for.

 

[Zeallyx]

Not often, though - only at the beginning/end frame of an animation. I mean the Brawl-level that Brawl's typically known for.

Fair enough, but my point still stands =P

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Too much lag worries me a bit just in what it means in terms of the overall metagame. There are people who liked Brawl's more think-it-out sort of style, but I do like the aggro style of Melee and Pm more. Having large amounts of it exist is both good and bad--you prevent some characters from being OP, but you can also make several less viable

Why is it so hard to understand that characters who possess landing lag will likely have benefits to counter-act that landing lag? Pros and cons.

 

[Zeallyx]

Why is it so hard to understand that characters who possess landing lag will likely have benefits to counter-act that landing lag? Pros and cons.

Because often such assets have been absent in past Smash games.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Because often such assets have been absent in past Smash games.

Stop living in the past.

 

[Zeallyx]

Stop living in the past.

Ad hominem.

Please try again =/

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Ad hominem.

Please try again =/

I'm not going to "try again" just because you personally disapprove of the words.

Either stop living in the past or don't, if the former at least try not to be obnoxious.

 

[pizzapie7]

I'm not going to "try again" just because you personally disapprove of the words.

Either stop living in the past or don't, if the former at least try not to be obnoxious.

Better to live in the past than live in a fantasy world where Sakurai is an infallible saint who can do no and has done no wrong and competitive players are entitled, whining brats who wouldn't know a good game if it hit them in the face.

 

[Zeallyx]

I'm not going to "try again" just because you personally disapprove of the words.

Either stop living in the past or don't, if the former at least try not to be obnoxious.

Ad hominem again.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Better to live in the past than live in a fantasy world where Sakurai is an infallible saint who can do no and has done no wrong and competitive players are entitled, whining brats who wouldn't know a good game if it hit them in the face.

And this isn't ad hominem?

He's done more for Smash than you ever have (or will), so why exactly should I trust you over him?

 

[Zeallyx]

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I think we'd all benefit if you stopped spamming.

 

[Pazzo.]

Faster is better.. and the game appears to have less landing lag.

In any case, I still firmly believe that the E3 Smash Demo was from and older version of SSB4, and the recent trailers (Pac-Man, Robin) are a more recent version.

 

[Senario]

Long landing lag on some characters but almost none on others is not a good balance point it actually reduces some characters to absolute trash whether you think offensive or defensive play. Ganon couldn't do ANYTHING in brawl yet in melee he has the benefit of being a decent character due to low landing lag.

Also, so many ad homenim attacks. Nobody is asking that L cancelling g specifically be back as well, they just want landing lag to be low across the board automatically regardless of when you land in an air move because slower characters will never be able to keep up with speed otherwise. No amount of wishful thinking will change the fact that speed in most fighting games is a natural and huge advantage.

 

[Zeallyx]

I think we'd all benefit if you stopped spamming.

Why don't you respond to my initial point?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Long landing lag on some characters but almost none on others is not a good balance point it actually reduces some characters to absolute trash whether you think offensive or defensive play. Ganon couldn't do ANYTHING in brawl yet in melee he has the benefit of being a decent character due to low landing lag.

Also, so many ad homenim attacks. Nobody is asking that L cancelling g specifically be back as well, they just want landing lag to be low across the board automatically regardless of when you land in an air move because slower characters will never be able to keep up with speed otherwise. No amount of wishful thinking will change the fact that speed in most fighting games is a natural and huge advantage.

So explain SF4 being the dominant fighting game at this years main FGC platform (and pretty much all the rest of them).

Why don't you respond to my initial point?

I would but I fear more random irrelevant picture spam.

 

[pizzapie7]

He's done more for Smash than you ever have (or will), so why exactly should I trust you over him?

@ Zeallyx argued that a precedent has been set. You've done nothing to counter that other than say essentially "what Sakurai has done in the past is irrelevant". How else do you judge someone if not by their past work? Nobody here is telling you to trust them. People are questioning your complete disregard to his actual track record. He made Smash, that's awesome. That doesn't excuse the faults he has. If we are all just "living in the past", you're living nowhere. People have seen and played his work and are judging him accordingly. That's what people do. He isn't perfect. It's not unreasonable to predict things based off past precedent. I'd argue you're the one being unreasonable here. All you're doing is expecting everything to work out, based on what exactly?

I think we'd all benefit if you stopped spamming.

I think we'd all benefit if you came with an actual ****ing point instead of wasting all of our time forcing us to weed through the filth of your stupid ad hominems with your holier-than-thou, better than you tone.

Long landing lag on some characters but almost none on others is not a good balance point it actually reduces some characters to absolute trash whether you think offensive or defensive play. Ganon couldn't do ANYTHING in brawl yet in melee he has the benefit of being a decent character due to low landing lag.

Also, so many ad homenim attacks. Nobody is asking that L cancelling g specifically be back as well, they just want landing lag to be low across the board automatically regardless of when you land in an air move because slower characters will never be able to keep up with speed otherwise. No amount of wishful thinking will change the fact that speed in most fighting games is a natural and huge advantage.

I feel that if it is balanced around properly it could be a decent tool to force some characters to be offensive/defensive or air/ground oriented. It could act as an artificial nerf of sorts to highly mobile, aerial offensive characters (looking at you, Metaknight), because it would punish players for throwing out quick low ground aerial moves in literally every situation for free. It could work, but I have my doubts as to whether or not it will. It's not necessarily a step in the wrong direction, in any case.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Guys calm down and get back on topic. Lets all remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

 

[Zeallyx]

I would but I fear more random irrelevant picture spam.

I can assure you that's all just between your ears, so you can fearlessly adress my initial point now.

 

[TimeSmash]

Guys calm down and get back on topic. Lets all remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Entitled, yes. Delivering them in a rude and callous manner not so much. That's my main qualm, here.

Edit: This came off as rather bilious, and wasn't intended as such. Sorry about that

 

[Chandeelure]

Did they reduce the landing lag?
NOPE, just look at Robin's landig lag, it's huge.
Lucina is just fast.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Entitled, yes. Delivering them in a rude and callous manner not so much. That's my main qualm, here.

Edit: This came off as rather bilious, and wasn't intended as such. Sorry about that

Which is why I told everyone to calm down.

Nothing wrong with debating in a civilized manner but if you see someone crossing the line there's no need to stoop down to their level. Just hit the "report" button and yada yada you guys know the rest.

 

[Senario]

So explain SF4 being the dominant fighting game at this years main FGC platform (and pretty much all the rest of them).


I would but I fear more random irrelevant picture spam.

Besides not being related to what I said at all...Because street fighter is a completely different game than smash bros and the same rules don't apply. In street fighter people have ways to play a way that match the game. The game has significant gravity and people don't get launched in the air a bunch when being hit. Add to that the game has a significant footsie game (neutral game, hitting people with the farthest point of your move) and you have a game that can favor offensive and heavily defensive games. It is a game that is one of the most balanced fighting games simply because it is the most traditional fighting game. From the other competitive fighting games I've played, I'd compare smash(64 - melee) to a more complicated and thought out game that relies on pressuring your opponent where offense is the best defense, although defensive options aren't bad. Blazblue is kind of like this though being a traditional fighting game it isn't a perfect comparison. The style of offense/defense in blazblue is a great balance where generally most people play offensive as it is considered the best option due to mix ups and pressure which is exciting to watch. However there are some outliers that can play defensive, 13, 12, +lambda.

Smash however, is not that simple once you get into it. Much like any other fighting game it is simple at it's basic level but should be difficult to master. The game's mechanics rely heavily on air moves due to the % system and how high you pop up enemies with nearly every move as percents get higher. This is why air moves are very important in smash and this causes a historically good offensive game that needs landing lag to be low across the board. EVERYBODY has to jump and land at some time for followups, having some people be slower "Just because" or "for balance" will hurt them twice as much since being slower than some of the faster characters is already a huge punishment with how mobility in this game is even more important than it is in other fighters. Robin has extremely long animations and long landing lag and while his moveset is unique and his design is novel the details of how it is implemented lead you to believe he can't do much with his moves. He hits somebody and then has a long animation to go through and can't follow up. And he is already being punished for not being a fast character like shiek or Lucina, it is highly unlikely that the damage he does with his moves will balance this out.

inb4 "Irrelevant" or an Ad homenim attack on me or "I'm right you're wrong because I say so" responses.

@ pizzapie7 I can see landing lag being used to balance out faster characters but generally from what I've seen landing lag is low for fast characters and high for slower characters sadly ): So the best course of action is just to have landing lag consistent, all fast, all slow, or normal. And honestly if everybody had normal or fast landing lag it would be fine. It just worries me when you see Robin who is a great character, and I love the game he is from, but the landing lag/end animation for spells is atrocious for no reason.

 

[GhettoPlab]

The logic in this thread :

If the game is not like "past games" (Melee), the game sucks

If you tell people to embrace the change, you are labeled a Sakurai lover.

Honestly, I have never seen a more spoiled gaming community.

 

[Senario]

The logic in this thread :

If the game is not like "past games" (Melee), the game sucks

If you tell people to embrace the change, you are labeled a Sakurai lover.

Honestly, I have never seen a more spoiled gaming community.

And you contribute to this discussion...how? There are good points made in some of these posts, interpreting them as "this game sucks" means that you probably need to reread some of them.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Let's just talk about landing lag in smash and whether it's been reduced or not.

Can we find anything from Robin's gameplay footage?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I'm kinda miffed that people complain to me when I want things like tech to be easier, yet lots of people are complaining that it's too hard to deal with different amounts of landing lag depending on character/move. If anything, I personally don't mind various amounts of landing lag on moves, because, as some people have mentioned, it acts as a balance. Not everything can be turned into a hyper-fast combo. You're forced to think, forced to adapt.

TL;DR: I actually kind of like variable landing lag; adds a bit of balance and mental strategy to the party.

Whilst I actually like the idea that variable landing lag could add balance and variety to the cast, I have to argue against the point of it adding depth and strategy. Why? because if there's one thing it forces the player to do, it isn't think or adapt, it's use the same moves over and over. Using the same approaches and combos all the time simply because it's the safest option isn't just boring (subjective), but it also makes players more repetitive and predictable (objective). Then you factor in Stale Move Negation and yeah...

The only way in which you'll need to adapt, won't be to your opponent or the fight at hand, but to the (inconsistent) limitations of your character. A permanent adaptation which can be performed within one day to one week, depending on how much labbing you do.

 

[Senario]

Let's just talk about landing lag in smash and whether it's been reduced or not.

Can we find anything from Robin's gameplay footage?

Landing lag on Sword strike with the levin sword is extremely long. Sadly we don't see a lot of air moves from him for landing lag. Thunder doesn't seem to cancel on land but then again we didn't really expect something similar to laser cancelling to be back.

After throwing out a spell or anything there seems to be a lot of animation time/lag out of the move, look at his fireball or even his A-A-A combo finisher with a spell. He usually floats his weapons around for flair but it causes him to have a lot of end lag unless he can jump out of it (I highly doubt that)

B = Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder(has ZSS stun properties) Thoron (Knocks backwards and has significant end lag. Likely you'll use it like Shiek needles)
B up = Elwind, two wind blades and they knock up opponents. Apparently from what we know he can actually run out of uses for this and have to wait for them to recharge. An interesting idea in theory but I fear in practice it just means he won't have good recovery.
B right = Elfire, fireball sent forward, lots of endlag on this one so not sure if follows can be done. I can see it being used at the edge of a stage to hit enemies, but only if it travels like a regular projectile and doesn't fizzle.
B down = Nosferatu, command grab. Heals you for the damage you do, apparently curses the opponent and causes you to steal life every time you hit them while cursed. Interesting but with how slow he is I'm not sure how effectively you can use this move.

Very few air moves have been shown but if he had any fast ones (like a standing kick such as mario/links for neutral air) it might make him semi ok. Definitely needs work on landing lag and how fast he recovers after throwing out moves since style seems to have been placed over function.

Oh and for some reason he seems to be mid level speed/slow, not exactly sure how that makes sense since he isn't like Ike where he is a clear powerhouse. He is a mage, and should be a little bit faster.

 

[Bjørn Christian Noor]

Competetive players will ditch melee for smash4 if the prizepool is enough. I know it's not even the same type of game, but look at dota2, 90% of the hon\dota1 community switched just cause of the international.

 

[DuelZephion]

Well there does seem to be a large amount of landing lag on the aerial sword attack Robin used around 1:48 in the trailer.

But today Sakurai said in the PotD that his Levin sword can use smash attacks in the air, so he could have given the aerial smashes more landing lag to make up for power.

I have a feeling that Robin's non smash aerials will be faster and less laggy. His specials do seem to have a long ending animation though.

 

[Renji64]

People will go for the characters with quickest moves why not reduce landing lag across the board for a more fast and fun game. It goes a long way with heavy characters for me.

 

[Crimnonin]

Well there does seem to be a large amount of landing lag on the aerial sword attack Robin used around 1:48 in the trailer.

But today Sakurai said in the PotD that his Levin sword can use smash attacks in the air, so he could have given the aerial smashes more landing lag to make up for power.

I have a feeling that Robin's non smash aerials will be faster and less laggy. His specials do seem to have a long ending animation though.

Aerial smash attacks? Good lord. Robin seems like he'll be difficult to master, like Rosalina.

Smash 4 seems to be adding characters with a lot of "gimmicks" like Rosalina and Little Mac. I'm really curious to see how far they can go in the higher levels of pro Smash play.

And yeah, I think chargeable aerial smashes will have an entirely different relationship with lag mechanics.