Did they reduce the landing lag?

[Senario]

Sorry I just have to say this. Faith is completely freely given, that's basically the definition of faith. Trust is earned and not freely given. People can have blind faith all they want, what Sakurai is not is trustworthy.

Meh, semantics. There are many ways to use a word to get an intended meaning not only one single way because words and language are ever changing with definitions and meaning not being too far behind. I was thinking about it from a "Do you have faith in Sakurai's ability to deliver on a game that is competitive" my answer is no. Technically you could also argue for the definition of faith not being blind trust but a confidence in a certain outcome. Both definitions are valid and both are used, language is interesting and complicated like that. I wouldn't say my use is invalid. Also, reference staindgrey's post.

Basically, I don't have faith in sakurai and he has given me no reason to. He isn't too trustworthy either.

 

[TimeSmash]

Now I really can't wait for another gameplay video, to see if this were a fluke or not

 

[bkslider]

Keeping my fingers crossed that more moves are like this. Nice job noticing, I was too busy drooling over the new character reveals.

 

[bkslider]

Keeping my fingers crossed that more moves are like this. Nice job noticing, I was too busy drooling over the new character reveals.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Rosalina's Nair in the demo had as much landing lag if not less as lucina's nair.

 

[JV5Chris]

It lasts 6 frames in the video, 12 frames in the reality (video is at 30 fps, you can count it). That's actually lower than melee's landing lag (a lot more if you count it l-canceled tho, but it's a good middle point).

Assuming you're accurate that's 12-13 (accounting for a possible missed frame at the beginning or end we don't see) compared to:

Neutral Air

Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

Don't know what the numbers are in Brawl, but I could see it taking more time. Still roughly going to feel closer to twice as slow as an l-canceling Melee Marth though.

That said, compared to Ganondorf:

Neutral Air

Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12

We're looking at roughly the same speed with what I assume is one of the quicker attacks in Smash 4. Considered by itself that's not too bad, but when you give or take 4-8 extra frames many other characters will probably add on average, it's still going to drag a bit (think Ganondorf's l-canceled down air which sits at 5 more frames).

Cut an additional 2-3 frames from here and they'd hit that magic spot where aerials look and feel like there's a window to punish but not be so frequently stuck.

 

[AttackstorM]

Did they actually listen to the competetive players after the e3 tournament and reduce the landing lag?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47208810/lucina-landing_lag.webm

That almost looked like L-Cancel speed lol.

 

[Renji64]

I hope he does take that feedback to heart i really want to play this game seriously.

 

[ferioku]

I hope he does take that feedback to heart i really want to play this game seriously.

I really hope he does, I'm already scared that this game is shunned by like 50% of the community, Sakurai even understands himself that if he doesn't fix things up then people will begin to despise his game.

I really do want this game to surpass Melee, and I'm hoping people can move on.

 

[Snakeyes]

Sakurai even understands himself that if he doesn't fix things up then people will begin to despise his game.

Where did he say that?

 

[Renji64]

I really hope he does, I'm already scared that this game is shunned by like 50% of the community, Sakurai even understands himself that if he doesn't fix things up then people will begin to despise his game.

I really do want this game to surpass Melee, and I'm hoping people can move on.

I don't think we will get something like that ever since melee is too hard for people and he said there wont ever be another smash for hardcore players like that. But just a fun different game that has the best of melee and brawl i'm down for.

 

[Senario]

I really hope he does, I'm already scared that this game is shunned by like 50% of the community, Sakurai even understands himself that if he doesn't fix things up then people will begin to despise his game.

I really do want this game to surpass Melee, and I'm hoping people can move on.

I'm not so sure he does understand. You see this a lot in movies. If they make a hit and become a big name of themselves they let pride take over and not allow input or in the case of movies oversight on the script from others. The way I see it is Sakurai is one who will resist as hard as he can when it concerns competitive despite nintendo of America being VERY supportive and receptive.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Sadly I have to agree that regardless of how supportive Nintendo of America is trying to be the fact remains they can't force his hand as its his vision.

The landing lag was one of the big feedback points that players had from E3. Yes I'm positive they were playing on an older build of the game. Since there is another tournament happening at San Diego Comic Con I'm sure they'll be using a more recent build of the game.

We won't see the final product till October so I'll just wait to see the outcome. I'll be honest though I'm slightly worried about the direction Nintendo might take this "competitive" scene but that's another subject for another time.

 

[κomıc]

Looks unnatural but whatever. If it stops people from whining I'm all for it. I think it has more to do with Lucina herself considering she is looking to be more agile than Marth (which could mean she'd be easy to KO for being a lightweight).

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I really hope he does, I'm already scared that this game is shunned by like 50% of the community, Sakurai even understands himself that if he doesn't fix things up then people will begin to despise his game.

I really do want this game to surpass Melee, and I'm hoping people can move on.

This is a stupid thing to want because it's impossible. Melee has taken more than a decade to get to where it is with it's community so to expect Smash 4 to do the same right on release is absurd.

 

[The Slayer]

I really hope he does, I'm already scared that this game is shunned by like 50% of the community, Sakurai even understands himself that if he doesn't fix things up then people will begin to despise his game.

I really do want this game to surpass Melee, and I'm hoping people can move on.

And that's never going to happen, even if Smash 4 is actually competitively interesting. It really grinds my gear when people say this. How is that going to benefit them? If anything, that kind of thought process and concept just pushes the community more into the wrong direction. Or worse, make them play another game series that's more competitively interesting. Decrease the community size isn't exactly healthy to the scene you know, even if it's cleaning out the "bad eggs."

 

[SKM_NeoN]

This is a stupid thing to want because it's impossible. Melee has taken more than a decade to get to where it is with it's community so to expect Smash 4 to do the same right on release is absurd.

And that's never going to happen, even if Smash 4 is actually competitively interesting. It really grinds my gear when people say this. How is that going to benefit them? If anything, that kind of thought process and concept just pushes the community more into the wrong direction. Or worse, make them play another game series that's more competitively interesting. Decrease the community size isn't exactly healthy to the scene you know, even if it's cleaning out the "bad eggs."

If a new Smash Bros. game was truly as competitively interesting as Melee, the majority of people would move on and the competitive scene would be bigger than ever. That's what everyone wants, it just all depends on the development team's priorities. There's nothing wrong with hoping for the best.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Me, I don't want to force people to move on.

I just want to have the option to move on.

I mean, I TECHNICALLY have the option right now, but that option just isn't fun to me.

 

[Senario]

Me, I don't want to force people to move on.

I just want to have the option to move on.

I mean, I TECHNICALLY have the option right now, but that option just isn't fun to me.

What you and NeoN said.

Basically, it is only a pseudo requirement to move on if the new game adequately supports competitive play. And even if it isn't as good as melee (probably will never be back to there) we can all agree the new version is "good enough" sort of like how older Marvel/Street fighter games could be considered the best but the newer games are "good enough" for the majority of the community both casual and competitive to accept.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

At the end of the day, the thing I want most is to control the game, not the game controlling me. There were even casual players at E3 who felt like they didn't have much control over their character. Reduced landing lag may not seem like a biggie to some people, but it goes a long way in order to have a great amount of control over your character, the match, and the pace of the match.

C'mon Sakurai. Don't fail me.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I just want my Marth back And I don't know if they gave it to me or both with the Lucina reveal, but if there truly is less landing lag, things are looking much better.

 

[The Slayer]

If a new Smash Bros. game was truly as competitively interesting as Melee, the majority of people would move on and the competitive scene would be bigger than ever. That's what everyone wants, it just all depends on the development team's priorities. There's nothing wrong with hoping for the best.

Of course I wouldn't mind then. But only if that happens. Otherwise, I just find that extremely selfish of people telling others to move on just for the sake of it, especially if the game isn't deem "reasonable" for any pre-SSB4 players in the scene.

 

[CommanderRin]

With Sakurai's pic of the day confirming that Lucina's moveset is a clone of Marth's.

Does this increase the likelihood that landing lag was indeed reduced?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

If a new Smash Bros. game was truly as competitively interesting as Melee, the majority of people would move on and the competitive scene would be bigger than ever. That's what everyone wants, it just all depends on the development team's priorities. There's nothing wrong with hoping for the best.

No, you are 100% wrong, because people simply do not follow this line of thinking no matter how you want to envision it. Folks simply don't move on.

Look at World of Warcraft. Game came out in 2004, few years after Melee actually. Since then a whole laundry list of new MMORPG titles have released and continue to release, that all fail to "kill" WoW. WoW took 10 years to build and maintain the relatively high subscriber base it has, and disregarding both minor and major fluctuations has maintained it's spot as the most subscribed to p2p MMORPG.

Even though the game is old, it's mechanics are tired; and it's design anything but fresh or innovative, people continue to play it even though many games have released since that are easily superior to it.

The real issue here is people despise change. Even the people who say they'd like it, more often than not they are lying to themselves. This is why every year we get a new call of duty with a new coat of paint that sells ass-loads more than the last. This is why the new super Mario's bros series which only bears the most resemblance to it's very first iteration ever created is the highest selling video game of all time. People like what they are familiar with, and they do not move on unless forced. This is why so many companies find ways to pull the plug on their past games to force moving on.

I'm fully and utterly convinced that even if Smash 4 released with a sonic boom, it had all the melee techniques people asked for, and it was in all forms of objectively a better game than Melee, people still would play Melee.

What's important is that Nintendo filters out the advice of those types of players because they are the the ones that make moving on an actual pain in the ass.

 

[Babali Boon]

Well, it looks promising. However, I agree with Mr. KoopaTurtle that being able to feel that I can move freely and control my character is a bit more concerning to me than this. Hopefully this is a sign that improvements are being made across the entire game.

But I truly wonder how difficult it can be to control the characters with how much testing is going on? In every video I've seen the characters seem well controlled. Maybe it's just something that takes a little getting used to.

 

[Saikyoshi]

No, you are 100% wrong, because people simply do not follow this line of thinking no matter how you want to envision it. Folks simply don't move on.

Look at World of Warcraft. Game came out in 2004, few years after Melee actually. Since then a whole laundry list of new MMORPG titles have released and continue to release, that all fail to "kill" WoW. WoW took 10 years to build and maintain the relatively high subscriber base it has, and disregarding both minor and major fluctuations has maintained it's spot as the most subscribed to p2p MMORPG.

Even though the game is old, it's mechanics are tired; and it's design anything but fresh or innovative, people continue to play it even though many games have released since that are easily superior to it.

The real issue here is people despise change. Even the people who say they'd like it, more often than not they are lying to themselves. This is why every year we get a new call of duty with a new coat of paint that sells ***-loads more than the last. This is why the new super Mario's bros series which only bears the most resemblance to it's very first iteration ever created is the highest selling video game of all time. People like what they are familiar with, and they do not move on unless forced. This is why so many companies find ways to pull the plug on their past games to force moving on.

I'm fully and utterly convinced that even if Smash 4 released with a sonic boom, it had all the melee techniques people asked for, and it was in all forms of objectively a better game than Melee, people still would play Melee.

What's important is that Nintendo filters out the advice of those types of players because they are the the ones that make moving on an actual pain in the ***.

Guile confirmed

Yeah, you're right. We don't want change.

Why? Change something too much, and it doesn't feel like what we like anymore.

Me, I'll be a bit more used to and adjusted to SSB4 at the start because I'm already a competitive Super Smash Flash 2 player, and that game has a very similar end goal in its mechanics. But for a lot of other people, SSBU isn't going to feel like Super Smash Bros. to them. It's going to take some time for them to accept the new game, and some of them won't at all. And that's fine, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else.

 

[Garquille14]

It's been what, a month, since E3? That's about how long it takes to make these videos and mechanical changes.

Either A: Lucina is faster then Marth.
B: The game was already faster before E3.
Or C, my bet: The trailer is tricking people into thinking the game is faster, much like previous ones.

the animated part has likely been in development for a while, but the gameplay footage could have been from 2 days before release.

 

[Senario]

No, you are 100% wrong, because people simply do not follow this line of thinking no matter how you want to envision it. Folks simply don't move on.

Look at World of Warcraft. Game came out in 2004, few years after Melee actually. Since then a whole laundry list of new MMORPG titles have released and continue to release, that all fail to "kill" WoW. WoW took 10 years to build and maintain the relatively high subscriber base it has, and disregarding both minor and major fluctuations has maintained it's spot as the most subscribed to p2p MMORPG.

Even though the game is old, it's mechanics are tired; and it's design anything but fresh or innovative, people continue to play it even though many games have released since that are easily superior to it.

The real issue here is people despise change. Even the people who say they'd like it, more often than not they are lying to themselves. This is why every year we get a new call of duty with a new coat of paint that sells ***-loads more than the last. This is why the new super Mario's bros series which only bears the most resemblance to it's very first iteration ever created is the highest selling video game of all time. People like what they are familiar with, and they do not move on unless forced. This is why so many companies find ways to pull the plug on their past games to force moving on.

I'm fully and utterly convinced that even if Smash 4 released with a sonic boom, it had all the melee techniques people asked for, and it was in all forms of objectively a better game than Melee, people still would play Melee.

What's important is that Nintendo filters out the advice of those types of players because they are the the ones that make moving on an actual pain in the ***.

I don't even know where to start with you, is it the presuppositions about the community or how other people would act? Or is it the absolutely high amounts of sodium I'm sensing from you. A game sequel is supposed to feel at least somewhat similar to it's predecessors. In the case of fighting games, extreme change is not appreciated because fighting games by their very nature are games that aren't supposed to change too much between iterations. In general most SEQUELS don't change between versions. Do you expect a sequel to say...Avengers to be a dark gritty cop thriller? No, you expect it to be action. Same thing in video games, if you change the genre you leave former fans of the game out and it isn't healthy. Super Paper Mario is one big example of this, I was a fan of the first two paper mario games but Super Paper Mario threw out most of the turn based RPG elements and introduced action platformer elements which made the game stand out less among the other mario platformers. It was very alienating.

If anything, I'm convinced that Nintendo shouldn't listen to you because you are extremely toxic towards the competitive community who only wants a game that is best for everybody. There is nothing wrong with some people wanting to stay with older games if that is their choice. It is for this reason that other fun things like the speed running community exist. They play awesome games and to deny that the old game is awesome (hence why it is popular) just because a new version is coming out is just short sighted and hateful.

There is a good amount in the community who would appreciate if the new game was conductive to competitive play. It is again, sort of like what other fighting games have done with Street Fighter and Marvel's newer games being the one played at EVO. Those games changed a lot within their own gameplay and people appreciate them because they had good enough mechanics(better than good enough, a marvel game is very hype to watch).

 

[SKM_NeoN]

No, you are 100% wrong, because people simply do not follow this line of thinking no matter how you want to envision it. Folks simply don't move on.

Not true. Look at the Evo lineup. Every game aside from Melee is the latest iteration of their franchise, and currently the most played by a large margin. This holds true for many, many competitive games, such as StarCraft 2 and Dota 2. Stop pretending that Brawl isn't at Evo because the community is essentially a bunch of grumpy old men. Fact is, Brawl simply did not meet the expectations of the competitive community as a result of crippling design flaws.

Look at World of Warcraft. Game came out in 2004, few years after Melee actually. Since then a whole laundry list of new MMORPG titles have released and continue to release, that all fail to "kill" WoW. WoW took 10 years to build and maintain the relatively high subscriber base it has, and disregarding both minor and major fluctuations has maintained it's spot as the most subscribed to p2p MMORPG.

Even though the game is old, it's mechanics are tired; and it's design anything but fresh or innovative, people continue to play it even though many games have released since that are easily superior to it.

These MMOs that are designed to "kill" World of Warcraft didn't for a reason: they suck. I hate WoW, but even I can see that modern MMOs are predominately "WoW clones". They're essentially the Playstation All-Stars of the MMO world; They copy-paste the new standard formula and try to steal the market without offering anything fresh. If you try to sell me a white PS3 when I already have a black one I'm not going to bother buying it, it's pretty much the same thing! Again, the problem is much deeper than a mere stubborn fanbase. There are too many examples of good successors that actually replace their predecessor.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Not true. Look at the Evo lineup. Every game aside from Melee is the latest iteration of their franchise, and currently the most played by a large margin. This holds true for many, many competitive games, such as StarCraft 2 and Dota 2. Stop pretending that Brawl isn't at Evo because the community is essentially a bunch of grumpy old men. Fact is, Brawl simply did not meet the expectations of the competitive community as a result of crippling design flaws.



These MMOs that are designed to "kill" World of Warcraft didn't for a reason: they suck. I hate WoW, but even I can see that modern MMOs are predominately "WoW clones". They're essentially the Playstation All-Stars of the MMO world; They copy-paste the new standard formula and try to steal the market without offering anything fresh. If you try to sell me a white PS3 when I already have a black one I'm not going to bother buying it, it's pretty much the same thing! Again, the problem is much deeper than a mere stubborn fanbase. There are too many examples of good successors that actually replace their predecessor.

This just shows you lack much involvement in the MMORPG scene, plenty of modern options are much superior to WoW in every technical and functional way, of course there's room for opinion here but the fact of the matter is people do not like to move on.

Players literally do not know what they want or need.

Refer to this video if you must...

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Man I hate Game Theory, lol. So many unfounded opinions on that channel. Maybe I'll check the video out when I get the chance.

I should probably note that your MMO example is flawed. Many games are in the MMO genre, but there is nothing for Warcraft fans to move on to. These games have nothing to do with Warcraft, they just copy WoW's formula and hope they improved it; Whether they actually have or not is irrelevant. That'd be like asking why Mortal Kombat fans haven't moved on to Injustice: God's Among Us. They're different franchises (same developer but you get the idea).

 

[Dracometeor]

I don't even know where to start with you, is it the presuppositions about the community or how other people would act? Or is it the absolutely high amounts of sodium I'm sensing from you. A game sequel is supposed to feel at least somewhat similar to it's predecessors. In the case of fighting games, extreme change is not appreciated because fighting games by their very nature are games that aren't supposed to change too much between iterations. In general most SEQUELS don't change between versions. Do you expect a sequel to say...Avengers to be a dark gritty cop thriller? No, you expect it to be action. Same thing in video games, if you change the genre you leave former fans of the game out and it isn't healthy. Super Paper Mario is one big example of this, I was a fan of the first two paper mario games but Super Paper Mario threw out most of the turn based RPG elements and introduced action platformer elements which made the game stand out less among the other mario platformers. It was very alienating.

If anything, I'm convinced that Nintendo shouldn't listen to you because you are extremely toxic towards the competitive community who only wants a game that is best for everybody. There is nothing wrong with some people wanting to stay with older games if that is their choice. It is for this reason that other fun things like the speed running community exist. They play awesome games and to deny that the old game is awesome (hence why it is popular) just because a new version is coming out is just short sighted and hateful.

There is a good amount in the community who would appreciate if the new game was conductive to competitive play. It is again, sort of like what other fighting games have done with Street Fighter and Marvel's newer games being the one played at EVO. Those games changed a lot within their own gameplay and people appreciate them because they had good enough mechanics(better than good enough, a marvel game is very hype to watch).

I really disliked you until now. Now your my hero. I loved your comparison with Paper Mario too, since that is exactly why I stopped playing that game. Anyways well said. I was going to reply to that post but your 'd ,me.

 

[makegoodchoices]

Personally, I'm remaining hopeful about Smash 4, but not without some doubt. I think it's too early to really judge the game mechanics-wise, especially based on the pre-alpha demo version we got. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Brawl demo run on a modified Melee engine, and still had mechanics like L-cancelling? Isn't it then possible that the E3 demo was running on a modified Brawl engine? The two biggest points of feedback Nintendo took from E3 attendees was that the landing lag was too much and that the knockback was too high at low percents and too low at high percents, and I don't know why they would have taken notes of feedback if they weren't going to change anything.

Anyways, on the landing lag side of things, I doubt L-cancelling will be back, but I'm confident most if not all aerials will auto-cancel. It just wouldn't make sense to only let a handful of moves do that.

 

[Untouch]

Posted this in another topic and I'll post it here.

Looks like landing lag from aair attacks is much MUCH lower in some cases.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Posted this in another topic and I'll post it here.

Looks like landing lag from aair attacks is much MUCH lower in some cases.

...sweet Arceus, either my eyes are going bad or Mario ****ing wavedashed.

Not sure how I feel about this.

 

[The Slayer]

More like a waveland, but instead of dodging, the momentum of his BAir made him slide like that.

 

[Saikyoshi]

More like a waveland, but instead of dodging, the momentum of his BAir made him slide like that.

I'm calling it. People are going to find ways to abuse that muh-liciously.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Players literally do not know what they want or need.

Refer to this video if you must...

But that's just a theory.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No, you are 100% wrong, because people simply do not follow this line of thinking no matter how you want to envision it. Folks simply don't move on.

Look at World of Warcraft. Game came out in 2004, few years after Melee actually. Since then a whole laundry list of new MMORPG titles have released and continue to release, that all fail to "kill" WoW. WoW took 10 years to build and maintain the relatively high subscriber base it has, and disregarding both minor and major fluctuations has maintained it's spot as the most subscribed to p2p MMORPG.

Even though the game is old, it's mechanics are tired; and it's design anything but fresh or innovative, people continue to play it even though many games have released since that are easily superior to it.

The real issue here is people despise change. Even the people who say they'd like it, more often than not they are lying to themselves. This is why every year we get a new call of duty with a new coat of paint that sells ***-loads more than the last. This is why the new super Mario's bros series which only bears the most resemblance to it's very first iteration ever created is the highest selling video game of all time. People like what they are familiar with, and they do not move on unless forced. This is why so many companies find ways to pull the plug on their past games to force moving on.

I'm fully and utterly convinced that even if Smash 4 released with a sonic boom, it had all the melee techniques people asked for, and it was in all forms of objectively a better game than Melee, people still would play Melee.

What's important is that Nintendo filters out the advice of those types of players because they are the the ones that make moving on an actual pain in the ***.

Because something is "superior" doesn't mean it's fun.

People continue to play these games for that very reason, they are enjoyable. And we enjoy them because they give us creative control, freedom and they are exciting for the player and the spectator, and to deliberately take that away to cator to an audience, for lack of a better word, didn't know jack-**** about the intricacies of the game, nor do they care; the so called silent majority who are just going to piss away 65 dollars to play the game for a month and for no reason, alienate a part of the fan base who will enjoy the game for years to come; in vain, might I add. Because that's a really great way to instill faith into the consumer.

No one is asking for Melee techs, but what Melee offered: options. Options, options, options. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially if you're trying to branch out to more players. And it's especially ludicrous to limit gameplay in a game like smash, when you have an almost infinite level of game customization.

Forcing people to do something they don't have to do is bull****.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm calling it. People are going to find ways to abuse that muh-liciously.

By the way, the Bair waveland was in the Brawl demo at E For All in 2007.