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Discussion in 'Brawl Competitive Discussion' started by Ulevo, Sep 4, 2008.

  1. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    The contents of this thread were deleted by the user.
  2. .Marik

    .Marik is a social misfit

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    Sure, it may help, if your damage isn't already high enough. Then your screwed. XP
  3. Yuna

    Yuna BRoomer

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    No you wouldn't. Your momentum does not immediately stop once you execute your aerial, unless it's a move that actually moves you in a certain direction, like a Side B (Dairs, not so much) or you're Lucario.

    Airdodging does do something... if you 2nd jump immediately afterwards.
  4. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    My friends Toon Link constantly lives to around 200%, sometimes more or rare occasions, due to him using proper DI in conjunction with this. And he's not even using the proper aerial. He's using the Fair out of habbit, which I believe is the slowest of the aerials.
  5. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    If you watch players like Forte Yuna, you will notice he constantly Uairs while being sent away precisely for this reason. I've tested this, and I guarantee you it works.

    And I didn't mean it stops your momentum necessarily. When you're hit with an attack, you are sent flying at a set rate of speed that slowly decreases over time that you normally don't have any influence over. Air Dodging does nothing to help this aside from allowing you to Jump after it's been executed, but it's too slow and the jumps sometimes have very minimal impact on your ability to live.

    The aerials give you a lot of your momentum back and much sooner.

    Oh, I'd also like to mention with your Lucario bit. Aerials that normally have influence on your momentum, such as Lucarios/Toon Links/ZSS/Sonics Dair do not effect the results anymore than another aerial of the same frame rate. And in fact, a faster attack will always be the better option. So in other words, for ZSS, Uair > Dair.

    It may be a misconception with Lucario because of how fast his Dair comes out. I think his Fair is faster, I'm not entirely sure though. That's why Azen uses it, but he uses both for this.
  6. P a i n

    P a i n Smash Cadet

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    Yuna's right. Use a move with included direction as well as DI and you'll last a tad longer.
  7. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    To be blunt, he's not right. I know this works. I'll give you hard numbers if you want that aren't an example, since I don't have video proof.
  8. JackieRabbit5

    JackieRabbit5 Smash Journeyman

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    interesting, i'd like to see someone really study this

    what if we combined both ur ideas...airdoge, double jump, and fast aerial?
    and DI of course
  9. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    Okay, hard numbers that are real I just tested.

    I used Zeldas USmash as the attack, since it goes directly upwards and there is little room for error. I used ZSS as the test dummy since she has an incredibly fast Uair.

    DI was not used for this.

    ZSS from the center diamond of Final Destination, right where she falls off the halo, will die from the USmash at 96% guaranteed without DI. When using the Uair to help her live however, she lived, guaranteed, to 104%.

    That's an 8% difference. In a match, that could mean the loss of a set or victory.
  10. DeliciousCake

    DeliciousCake Smash Lord

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    People have already made plenty of videos about this.

    http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=R73FmgN_IGc

    Somebody made a better one with Marth and effectively super-imposed the different flight paths on top of each other with each form of DI but I can't find it.
  11. MarKO X

    MarKO X Smash Champion

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    As I've seen it and experienced it, to recover, this seems to be the order of urgency.

    1) DI (always DI)
    2) airdodge for 2nd jump (use with caution)
    3) the average aerial (save the true momentum boosting ones, like ROB's bair)

    But if what Ulevo says is true, then aerials will be taking the place of the airdodge 2nd jump, which will be better as you can conserve that jump for anti-gimping.
  12. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    Your top priority when being hit via an attack that could kill you should be Smash DI if possible, followed by proper DI, following by aerials. Always.

    Air Dodging is actually useless, or near useless, especially when compared to this. Even if jumps give you some of your momentum back, they don't take priority over aerials, and the Air Dodge takes too long. By the time its finish and you're ready to jump, you're already dead. I've never had an instance once where I felt like an Air Dodge would have saved me, or did in fact save me.

    This however has helped me immensily since I started doing it Months ago. I just figured it was common knowledge.
  13. FBM

    FBM Smash Apprentice

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    He's right. I've seen the videos that overlay all the different possible actions after being hit (dodge, jump, attack). And the one that works the best is dodge + jump. Dodge gives you control back faster, which allows you use a move that saves you sooner. I believe dodge + attack still helps, which would probably be better if you going to live and didn't want to burn your jumps that quickly, but I'm pretty sure that dodge + jump is the way to go (unless you have wacky momentum-changing aerials I guess).


    The Marth one Cake is talking about is the one I'm talking about too.
  14. DeliciousCake

    DeliciousCake Smash Lord

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    Aha, found it. The video shows the relative recovery distances based on various forms of DI.

    http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=fCX3nIR5uDk
  15. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    This is not what I am talking about at all.

    Air Dodges and Jumps are not involved. I'm talking about the specific use of using aerials first before anything to allow yourself to live.
  16. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    Whacky changing momentum aerials do nothing more than a normal aerial would.

    Air Dodging takes too long to warrant it's use over this. Using an attack gives you back your momentum back much sooner, and allows you to save your double jump.

    You'll see Forte attempt to do it numerous times in this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFQCliq1qo
  17. Adapt

    Adapt Smash Lord

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  18. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    What you don't see Kizzu do in this video is attempt to move Marth forward after the aerial has been executed. I'm assuming he's using the C Stick.

    If you noticed in the video, the aerial activated the fastest, thus gave him his momentum back sooner than anything else. Also, Jump barely allows you to move anywhere as you're still caught in the momentum of the hit. If Kizzu had attempted to move whilst testing this, he would have found the aerials would have been the better option.

    Bah, I need to get my Dazzle to work, or send a replay to someone.
  19. FBM

    FBM Smash Apprentice

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    Watch frame by frame when they overlay attack + air dodge.
  20. DeliciousCake

    DeliciousCake Smash Lord

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    Well of course he wasn't attempting to move, he was demonstrating the hit-stun. And I'm not arguing against you, I'm saying that people have already done this before.
  21. Yuna

    Yuna BRoomer

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    I'm sorry, I said this doesn't work when? It, however, does notimmediately stop your momentum. It helps, but it doesn't do what you said it does.

    Also, airdodging does help and it's better (if you feel like sacrificing your 2nd jump). Immediately airdodging and immediately 2nd jumping afterwards saves you better than just aerialing.

    You said: "As soon as I executed the Fair, I would regain my momentum". This is untrue. It slows you down, and eventually allows you to regain the momentum, however. But, airdodging into a 2nd jump is faster.

    Like, say, if you've just been sent flying and immediately airdodge into a 2nd jump. If you instead do a Fair, it takes you longer to stop flying in that certain direction than had you airdodged into a 2nd jump.

    False. Airdodging does everything. Airdodging is better. Because jumping stops your momentum and lunges you forward.

    If you're Lucario.

    Hoe? This is the first I've heard of this (about Lucario).
  22. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    Okay, so more hard numbers for you.

    I took Meta Knight on Final Destination and place him on the right edge of the stage the way Mario was positioned in one of those videos with the Dedede.

    I placed Meta Knights damage to 36%.

    At that damage, I held up on the joystick to ensure DI both times. I used the FSmash from Dedede, and once I was sent flying, I spammed Air Dodge and Jump to ensure an attempt to live. I still died.

    When I did the exact same thing, except spammed Uair with Meta Knight, I lived under the exact same conditions.
  23. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    You're wrong. Air Dodging + Jumping is inferior to this in every possible way. I've just layed out the facts for you with actual results and numbers. I can't do anything else aside from provide video proof, which aside from sending replays, I currently cannot do.
  24. MarKO X

    MarKO X Smash Champion

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    this sounds awesome... I will have to test thing myself...
  25. Yuna

    Yuna BRoomer

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    I'll do some testing of my own. If you're right, then I... apologize, I guess?
  26. FBM

    FBM Smash Apprentice

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    You must have done something in your testing wrong, because I just did this test:

    - metaknight standing on the very edge of FD so he's in his "omg im gonna fall" animation
    - ddd standing with toe on the inside of the outward-most blue > > mark
    - smash DI upwards, normal DI towards the stage

    @32% MK's f-air would save him.
    @33% MK's f-air would not save him.
    @33% MK's u-air would not save him.
    @33% air dodge, then jump, timed properly, would save him.

    You have your numbers, I have mine. How you are DI'ing might affect this (you have to have the right normal DI to maximize the air-dodge + jump - DI'ing UP like you did isn't helping the dodge/jump). There were times when my air dodge + jump trial failed b/c my DI wasn't right. However, I tested numerous times making sure to use the exact same DI for both the attack and dodge/jump trials, and this is what I got.

    Anyway, I think the lesson here is that they are both really **** close, and if the dodge/jump is indeed better, it's only marginally AND it costs you your second jump. As metaknight, this might not be a big deal, but someone like ZSS might get gimped b/c that jump was burned.
  27. pure_awesome

    pure_awesome Smash Lord

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    My findings coincide with FBM's.

    Metaknight, when hit with Ganondorf's Fsmash on the edge of Final Destination at 66%, was KOd whether I used proper DI, bad DI, spammed Uair, Dair, or what have you.

    Airdodge and Double-Jump, when timed correctly, saved him.


    Is it possible that spamming aerials kills vertical momentum better, and airdodge+double jump doesn't?

    That could be why our findings conflict. You used a vertical kill move (Zelda's Upsmash), we used horizontal (DeDeDe and Ganondorf Fsmashes, respectively.)

    I'll go do more testing.


    EDIT: At 95% from the middle of Final Destination, Metaknight died no matter what I did from an uncharged Ganondorf Upsmash. No amount of Uairs helped save him. At 94%, he lived no matter what. So if there is a difference, it's negligible.

    I should point out that he actually was able to survive by doing Uair and then immediately doing DC or the *****nado, but we already knew that, right?

    So yeah. Nothing new to report, really.
  28. BBQ°

    BBQ° Smash Champion

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    You think you can make a video?
  29. Kitamerby

    Kitamerby Smash Hero

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    Oh yeah, for the record, Lucario's Dair doesn't help your momentum at all when you're sent flying. You still go flying just as much as you would with any other Aerial. It only stops your momentum if you're in complete control of your character and controlling him on your own power. If you jump and Dair, you'll stop, but if you're hit, you'll still move and just do a rising/falling/moving Dair. Hit him with an attack and Dair immediately, and you'll see this happen. You can see this at work perfectly by having another Lucario juggle him with Utilt. What happens is that Lucario does a falling Dair as he comes back down. The only exception to this is when he powershields a hit, he can do a rising Dair by jumping/short hopping it. I personally have no clue how the hell that happens, though.

    Oh, and apparently, Lucario's Dair (29 frames) only lasts one frame longer (total) than his Fair (28 frames), so it's really not too big of a difference on which you use, and if it matters, Dair does actually come out quicker than Fair, according to our frame data topic. <.<


    Also for the record, it seems that many other momentum slowing/halting moves also don't make you go any less distance than you would otherwise, like Zelda's "Love Jump" thingy where she can do a double-jump rising Nayru's Love after being hit with an attack with knockback.


    What I'm wondering now, though, is if you can jump sooner after doing a very fast-ending aerial like MK's Uair or Luigi's Fair, or maybe TL's Nair or Bair, because according to Kizzu's video, it seems that Marth really DID actually recover his hitstun sooner, which probably means you could jump earlier than the painfully-long, nearly-2/3-of-a-second Airdodge. Maybe it only works for characters with a blazingly fast aerial that they can use right before jumping to save them, and thus could be useless for characters like Lucario whose fastest aerial lasts almost half a second, or maybe it might be useless for multijumpers. It'd probably be good to have tests from different characters. Maybe a good sample set would be MK (multijumper with fast uair), Zero Suit Samus (lightweight with incredible second jump and fast uair), Lucario (mid-weight character with semi-fast/slow aerials with very fast startup), Marth (light character with a very fast Fair), Luigi (mid-weight with very fast fair), and Bowser (his fair may see if weight plays a part), with DDD/Ike as the fsmasher (perhaps full-charge to see how much % makes a difference?)
  30. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    First off, why would you Smash DI? It's only going to randomly alter the results unless you Smash DI the same each time, which is rather difficult to accomplish for human testing.

    And why you think that you have to DI specifically in order to maximize the Air Dodge + Jump is beyond me. Also, did you try to use your (what I call) aerial influence after using the Air Dodge + Jump and using the Uair to effect your results? Because if not, you're going to get results like that.

    The entire point of using aerials is so you regain control in the air, or you regain your ability to influence yourself through the air to slow momentum down, which Air Dodging doesn't do and Jumping does to very, very minimal effect.


    Again, were you trying to influence yourself in the air? I was holding down the entire time I was doing this with Zelda's USmash to ensure that I wouldn't keep going upwards once I used my aerials.

    And I did testing with Dedede, I posted the results before. I don't know how you guys are doing this, but if you're just spamming Uair and not trying to get back by influence, you will get the same results.

    I'll retest your Ganondorf findings.
  31. Yuna

    Yuna BRoomer

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    I can't get over the fact that you're claiming that jumping has very little effect on canceling your momentum.
  32. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    Retested the Ganondorf one.

    At the edge with Meta Knight in his about-to-fall animation, at 66% and holding up for vertical DI.

    I used Ganondorfs FSmash, and could not live by Air Dodge + Jumping, regardless of how much I spammed Dodge and Jump or properly timed it.

    Using Uair and then attempting influence myself back to the stage while jumping, I was able to live.

    Here's another test in case you think it only effects vertical trajectories.

    On the top platform with Battlefield, I used Falcos DSmash on the front end on Meta Knight at 145% with no DI whatsoever.

    Using Air Dodging + Jump, I couldn't survive. Not even close.

    With using Uair and jumping plus influencing myself towards the stage after the Uair, I live.

    I should have mentioned that you can't spam the aerials. Use them once, then try to get back. If you keep using them, you'll keep carrying the momentum you previously had. That's the advantage Air Dodging doesn't have.
  33. Foxy

    Foxy Smash Master

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    From experience in serious/tournament play I'd have to agree with Ulevo. For a long time, however, I only applied it to vertical knockback, with proper DI and a dair(s), and it has ALWAYS allowed me to live much longer. Airdodges never helped me that much vertically.

    I recently started using it for horizontal knockback as well and it seems to be the optimal choice for that too, though the difference is probably very close.

    There IS a big difference, in my experience, with vertical knockback because obviously airdodge+jump will be giving you the wrong kind of momentum change (further up). If we take anything useful away from this thread it should be that there is indeed a huge benefit to using aerials to stop vertical knockback momentum rather than an airdodge (which does nothing since you won't be jumping).
  34. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    With that, you might want to take into considerationg that almost all attacks in competitive play, when proper DI is used, send you more vertical then they do horizontally. That is where the biggest use of it lies, and it saves your ***. Horizontal recovery is still good though, as I showed above with Falco & Meta Knight.

    I'm more or less claiming that Air Dodging + Jumping has very little effect. Jump helps, but only after an aerial. Air Dodging's animation takes too long to end in order for you to effectively use the jump afterwards, basically.
  35. pure_awesome

    pure_awesome Smash Lord

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    That's... strange.

    And yes, I was just using one Uair and then trying to force myself back. I also tried spamming for the hell of it. I tried lots of stuff.

    For the vertical kill, I was holding down the whole time. I even c-sticked the Uair to make sure I was holding down as long as possiblity. Then I tried Dair. Like I said, I tried lots of stuff. :bee:

    When you airdodge+jump, are you still just holding up? That's the only thing I can think of that would be skewing the findings. You have to DI up when you're hit, then airdodge and double-jump while holding back towards the stage.
    ^^^Important^^^


    Anyway, we should run the same test to at least see if we're doing some simple differently, or figure out if this is specific to something completely obscure like... Control scheme or something. Sooo...

    [STEPS TO REPRODUCE]
    1 - Enter Training Mode
    2 - Set Player 1 under a profile with Smash attacks on the C-Stick as King DeDeDe
    3 - Set CPU to Metaknight
    4 - Select Final Destination
    5 - Set Metaknight to "Control" and Damage to "20%"
    6 - Roll with King DeDeDe so that he is as far right as possible, while facing left.
    7 - Position Metaknight facing right, with his lead toe just on the inside of the rightmost blue arrow.
    8 - With the C-Stick, Fsmash left with King DeDeDe
    9 - At the moment of impact, hold right with Metaknight
    10 - Note where he lands
    11 - Repeat steps 5-8
    12 - At the moment of impact, hold right with Metaknight and, as early as possible, hit the C-stick up once to perform an Uair. Continue holding right on the control stick throughout.
    13 - Note where he lands.


    When I did this, Metaknight landed directly on top of the leftmost corner of the smallest blue diamond in the centre of FD, both times.

    I should point out that this test won't actually disprove your theory, since the trajectories aren't necessarily the same. But it will at least tell us if we're doing something major differently.
  36. ChronoPenguin

    ChronoPenguin Smash Lord

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    I attack constantly out of habit, I dont see a difference much
  37. Ulevo

    Ulevo Smash Champion

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    Setting characters on specific ends of the stage by markings is leaving room for error, unless you have the character go to the edge of a stage or attack them from the halo dropping point.

    Here are the exact steps I took.

    1: Pick Falco
    2: Set CPU to Meta Knight
    3: Go to Battle Field
    4: Kill Meta Knight so he drops ontop of the top platform and make sure you don't move him.
    5: Place Falco on the same platform, facing to the right.
    6: Set the CPU damage to 145%
    7: Set the speed to 2/3. In 1/2 or 1/4, the C Stick doesn't register commands easily and will sometimes skip them. In 2/3s it's much more accurate.
    8: Hold the CPU controller and have Falco DSmash Meta Knight.

    First Attempt:

    1: Do not DI.
    2: Once Meta Knight is sent flying, hold towards the stage, or left in this case and spam Air Dodge.
    3: Once an Air Dodge has been activated, keeping hold towards the stage and spam Jump.
    4: Results.

    Second Attempt:

    1: Let Meta Knight drop down again from the Halo and DSmash once invincibility wears off.
    2: Do not DI.
    3: Once Meta Knight is sent flying, hold forward towards the stage, or left in this case and spam up on the C Stick.
    4: Once a Uair has activated, spam the jump button while holding towards the stage still.
    5: PROFIT
  38. .Marik

    .Marik is a social misfit

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    And air-dodging does help a bit... or using an aerial that propels you into a certain direction..
  39. LordoftheMorning

    LordoftheMorning Smash Champion

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    I heard that using Lucario's Dair does NOT slow your momentum. It's on the Luc boards. I don't really know though, it seems like dair should work.
  40. ph00tbag

    ph00tbag C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ

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    Make sure Zelda SDs before retesting, Einstein. On that note, I tried this out with the rear of Zamus' fsmash (it has a much lower KGR than Zelda's usmash, so there's less of a discrepancy in launch speed at each percent, thus making your results much more accurate), and found that realistically, there is no advantage gained from any aerial when hit straight up.

    My understanding is that you can airdodge before you can attack, meaning that if the timing is right for it, you could conceivably finish the airdodge before the attack. Or maybe simply jumping is best. I'm not clear on the details here.

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