DAir cancelling your jump.

[Cyko Melody]

Just playing around with ZSS and I see you can immediately DAir after jumping (I.E. Getting a really low, but fast DAir).

I tried using it in matches and with the right recognition on character's moves or foreseeing a grab setup, you can punish a multitude of characters in many ways.

It's definitely not a safe move if your opponent is looking for it and can react, but you can get the surprise on people if they don't expect it. It has a pretty big hit box but at max distance, I don't think a lot of characters can punish it. Haven't really been in the lab with it.


Any one else has had success with this move?

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Dair has its uses as a mix-up when getting from the air back on to the stage (ZSS players on FG tend to use Dair for this purpose every time - typically right onto my shield), but I don't recommend using it as an attack in general. It's a really risky move to use because of how easy it is to punish on block. You'd pretty much have to be certain that they won't be able to shield it - say, when they're in the middle of a recovery animation, or when they're trying to chase you in the air. If you're high in the air and slightly off the stage, but close enough to it to not SD with a Dair, it is possible to meteor anyone that tries to juggle you - but don't fish too hard for that because it's unlikely it'll work very often.

 

[DeLux]

It's one of those options that I like to throw out to keep players honest in the punish game.

For example, let's say the opponent is expecting me to land, so they cheat (not literally, but leave themselves vulnerable preemptively due to expectation of an option) to get into position to punish landing with an option like a grab. Double jumping and then dairing instead of following through with landing is a viable mixup. Further, it allows you to stuff the pre-emptive counter play of trying to read something like a flip jump away and hitting you on cooldown. Both of those options require some sort of of preemptive setup work, so the DJ Dair mixup while not highly rewarding at least forces them to account for the possibility of getting hit, making options like landing Nair or flip jumping away that much more effective.

 

[Cyko Melody]

It's a really risky move to use because of how easy it is to punish on block. You'd pretty much have to be certain that they won't be able to shield it - say, when they're in the middle of a recovery animation, or when they're trying to chase you in the air.

I feel it's a high risk, high reward. Knowing what you're opponent will throw out, not to mention you're invulnerable to a grab because you're off the ground, it has it's merits. It comes out quick, but like you said it has its downsides. It's gonna be a move you'll use often, but it's a good tool to have.

I want this thread to be more about the why/when you would use it. Not why you wouldn't.

 

[DeLux]

If you feel Dair is high risk / high reward, your definition of "high" is significantly different than mine, especially on the reward side.

 

[Cyko Melody]

If you feel Dair is high risk / high reward, your definition of "high" is significantly different than mine, especially on the reward side.

High risk, average reward, then?

 

[DeLux]

I'd go as far as to suggest that the threat of Dair is probably more rewarding than the Dair itself if utilized properly because of the auxiliary benefits it brings.

Which I outlined here

 

[elmike]

how do you perform the "floaty" Dair?

I have been in situation where i input Dair, but zss does it at a very slow speed

 

[BitGlitch]

how do you perform the "floaty" Dair?

I have been in situation where i input Dair, but zss does it at a very slow speed

Happens when you're hit into the air and your character hasn't had the proper time to recover yet (still flailing in the air).

 

[4eversmashing]

I tend to use dair if I mess up my uair juggles to make sure I reach the ground before my opponent. Is this safe?

 

[David Viran]

I wouldn't do that because your better off just fast falling back to the ground instead. Most of the time you get back to the ground first anyway after uair juggles with no landing lag which means your opponent still has to putting you in the advantage.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I tend to use dair if I mess up my uair juggles to make sure I reach the ground before my opponent. Is this safe?

Don't do that. Fast fall, try to land away from your opponent if he is below you and use dSpecial if you need some extra space.

 

[DeLux]

I actually have been doing that as well in some situations lol
And by some situations I mean on PS2 and Doubles

 

[3870x2]

I use Dair pretty regularly as a conversation starter, bait, and expectancy tactic, and have great success in using it. Here is my experience:

Initiating: We can be punished, but the window is small. Tips to reduce punishment is to make sure it lands behind the opponent or during opponents move after bait. I highly recommend to learn to meteor the opponent off the edge, with practice you will rarely fall off. After landing, if it is shielded behind the opponent, roll to the opponent's front and grab. If opponent turned, grab is successful. If opponent rolls, run+grab.

Baiting: This can be done by using it in a way that punishing is not an option, IE not too near the opponent. The recovery time is unexpectedly short, allowing you to punish the opponent's attempt to punish.

Expectancy tactic: After some time, the opponent will begin to expect Dair, save the second jump for this and Dair just a bit later, or punish an attack looking to break your Dair.

Notes on Dair:
- Dair is suicidable under the stage at any percent, and above the stage starting at 20% + (adjusting for height), but samus will die first under something like 200%, depending on opponent. This cannot be canceled.
- Dair has no minimum distance, and can be executed at no height, just after a jump. This is good to punish throws and other forward facing attacks and good vs close range characters.
- Launching Dair with upward momentum will slow down the Dair considerably. This can be used as an expectancy tactic also.
- The first Dair hit in the air does 5% damage, landing on the opponent does an additional 6% damage.

My entire play revolves around Dair, so I take it very seriously as a ZSS main.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I use Dair pretty regularly as a conversation starter, bait, and expectancy tactic, and have great success in using it. Here is my experience:

Initiating: We can be punished, but the window is small. Tips to reduce punishment is to make sure it lands behind the opponent or during opponents move after bait. I highly recommend to learn to meteor the opponent off the edge, with practice you will rarely fall off. After landing, if it is shielded behind the opponent, roll to the opponent's front and grab. If opponent turned, grab is successful. If opponent rolls, run+grab.

Baiting: This can be done by using it in a way that punishing is not an option, IE not too near the opponent. The recovery time is unexpectedly short, allowing you to punish the opponent's attempt to punish.

Expectancy tactic: After some time, the opponent will begin to expect Dair, save the second jump for this and Dair just a bit later, or punish an attack looking to break your Dair.

Notes on Dair:
- Dair is suicidable under the stage at any percent, and above the stage starting at 20% + (adjusting for height), but samus will die first under something like 200%, depending on opponent. This cannot be canceled.
- Dair has no minimum distance, and can be executed at no height, just after a jump. This is good to punish throws and other forward facing attacks and good vs close range characters.
- Launching Dair with upward momentum will slow down the Dair considerably. This can be used as an expectancy tactic also.
- The first Dair hit in the air does 5% damage, landing on the opponent does an additional 6% damage.

My entire play revolves around Dair, so I take it very seriously as a ZSS main.

I don't think I can follow you here.
How is the ending lag small, it's huge. The startup animation isn't exactly small either. Rolling to the opponent's front is nearly always a bad idea. They are either hitting you while you can't do anything or will just punish your roll.
We also have far better punishment tools. Attacks with more damage, higher knock back and higher combo potential,
everything possible with a little SH.
I can only see dAir as punishment tool if your opponent uses a huge laggy move and you are way above him.

 

[3870x2]

I don't think I can follow you here.
How is the ending lag small, it's huge. The startup animation isn't exactly small either. Rolling to the opponent's front is nearly always a bad idea. They are either hitting you while you can't do anything or will just punish your roll.
We also have far better punishment tools. Attacks with more damage, higher knock back and higher combo potential,
everything possible with a little SH.
I can only see dAir as punishment tool if your opponent uses a huge laggy move and you are way above him.

When you land behind your opponent, your opponent is going to want to turn around or roll to face you. Rolling to their front is a preemptive measure for the opponent's obvious next move. This is loss mitigation when you should have aborted execution, not a strategy.

I should have probably made it clear that you want to avoid hitting their shield, and want to catch them in action or bait them. Less than half the time when I jump to use Dair, I don't actually end up executing because I don't like what I see. Dair is an excellent mind game.

 

[Lus146]

Yeah I've been using it sometimes too. Sheik can also do the same thing but I think that ZSS might have longer lag after the move. It seems to be really effective against dash attacks that have a long range because you can jump over them to dodge it and then hit them right after. Idk sometimes it works and is pretty situational but fun. I'm pretty new so I am still experimenting with things and I have no clue if they are good or not so whatever.

 

[pichuthedk]

since we are on the subject of dair I have a few things I need confirmed if possible.

1. wondering how to initiate the soft launch for dair because there have been times I had to switch on my *troll face*, because they were at the perfect height even some of them were unable to even react out of the hit stun where I proceeded to just sh/fh bair (I'd also like to stop doing this at low %s and getting punished xD). Assuming that landing on them does 6 % hitting the ground creates a mini shockwave doesn't it?

2.contiuned from the shockwave part if so we can shield poke ? Or is that opponents just getting trigger happy and letting go of shield to early which I'm sure is also what happens alot.

3. wondering how possible it would be to downsmash someone off stage -> turn around jump and dair (or just dair without falling off the stage) to try and just meteor them/stage spike them.

 

[NickRiddle]

3. wondering how possible it would be to downsmash someone off stage -> turn around jump and dair (or just dair without falling off the stage) to try and just meteor them/stage spike them.

This works, but they have to be pretty much right next to the stage, or standing on the very edge.
And above 70% so they don't fly away.

 

[Cancel]

This works, but they have to be pretty much right next to the stage, or standing on the very edge.
And above 70% so they don't fly away.[/quo
Hmm interesting mr Nick

 

[alightbulb]

red very that's exceeds wastes gj raved

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

red very that's exceeds wastes gj raved

bless you

 

[Fearless Spart4n]

its a decent mix up but i feel like you have to use it sparingly. opponents catch on quick and you need to mix it up or you will end up getting punished one too many times.

 

[Cancel]

Ill try messing around with this later on today to see what you guys are talking about.