Meta Custom Moveset Project: Mega Man

[ChopperDave]

Do we really need so many Skull Barrier sets?

The way I see it, there are only a few characters against whom Skull Barrier might be the optimal choice. These are characters who rely on projectile spam in the neutral, or who can use strong projectiles to juggle, edgeguard, or punish landings.

Off the top of my head, that's a fairly short list: ,,, ,,,,,,, . Maybe and too, though I tend to prefer Leaf Shield.

I feel like we could probably optimize our Skull Barrier use for these MUs. Generally, I think 1312 is the way to go for all of these; Crash Bomber tends to get neutralized by all the projectile spam. 1112 may be preferred for and , though I'm not sure the ability to explode hydrants and lloyds really makes up for the loss of Danger Wrap's edgeguarding, juggling, and killing power.

1322 I'm unsure about. It could be good for edgeguarding, juggling, and stage control, which many of the above characters struggle against. On the other hand a lot of these guys, such as ,,,, and have dsmashes with fairly low knockback angles, which could lead us to early deaths if we roll TH.

 

[mega4000]

Do we really need so many Skull Barrier sets?

The way I see it, there are only a few characters against whom Skull Barrier might be the optimal choice. These are characters who rely on projectile spam in the neutral, or who can use strong projectiles to juggle, edgeguard, or punish landings.

Off the top of my head, that's a fairly short list: ,,, ,,,,,,, . Maybe and too, though I tend to prefer Leaf Shield.

I feel like we could probably optimize our Skull Barrier use for these MUs. Generally, I think 1312 is the way to go for all of these; Crash Bomber tends to get neutralized by all the projectile spam. 1112 may be preferred for and , though I'm not sure the ability to explode hydrants and lloyds really makes up for the loss of Danger Wrap's edgeguarding, juggling, and killing power.

1322 I'm unsure about. It could be good for edgeguarding, juggling, and stage control, which many of the above characters struggle against. On the other hand a lot of these guys, such as ,,,, and have dsmashes with fairly low knockback angles, which could lead us to early deaths if we roll TH.

what about rosalina custom move side b that allows her to spam with luma? she has a slow luma regular b that covers her in any melee attack but skull barrier reflects that. I woudn't face rosalina without danger wrap + tornado hold so I don't know..

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

On the other hand a lot of these guys, such as ,,,, and have dsmashes with fairly low knockback angles, which could lead us to early deaths if we roll TH.

I was initially against a Beat set using Skull Barrier, but it seems good against these few, and possible a few others.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

For reference
Full list of people you SHOULD use Skull Barrier against:


People you MIGHT want to use Skull Barrier against:

 

[ChopperDave]

For reference
Full list of people you SHOULD use Skull Barrier against:


People you MIGHT want to use Skull Barrier against:

Ah, forgot about and the Miis.

I disagree on most of the "shoulds." Pretty much the only characters I think belong on that list are , , , , and maybe and . And that's purely because they have projectiles that we can't consistently beat with lemons. Mega Man hates charge and store projectiles.

Leaf Shield has its merits against the rest of that list. I mean, next to Gravity Well it's the bane of 's existence

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

Leaf Shield has its merits against the rest of that list. I mean, next to Gravity Well it's the bane of 's existence

You're right there. I assumed Skull Barrier gimps Ness just as easily, but testing it out proved otherwise.

 

[mega4000]

Leaf Shield has its merits against the rest of that list. I mean, next to Gravity Well it's the bane of 's existence

WHAT!!!? HOW? PLS PLS TELL ME HOW TO GIMP NESS WITH LEAF SHIELD! EVERY TIME I TRY TO DO IT, HIS ARMOR MAKES THE HIT SURPASS LEAF SHIELD WITH HIS RECOVERY!

 

[ChopperDave]

WHAT!!!? HOW? PLS PLS TELL ME HOW TO GIMP NESS WITH LEAF SHIELD! EVERY TIME I TRY TO DO IT, HIS ARMOR MAKES THE HIT SURPASS LEAF SHIELD WITH HIS RECOVERY!

step 1: activate Leaf Shield
step 2: jump toward Ness when he sends out PKT
step 3a: the leaves eat the thunder, you jump away while Ness falls in helpless state
step 3b: the leaves knock Ness out of his concentration, you footstool
step 4: laugh

 

[ScAtt77]

After looking through the list of load outs, I definitely think that MM could use a little more versatility in his custom move load outs. Personally, here are the sets that I would prefer to have:

I advocate 1323 as custom load-out; I'm really tempted to call this MM's best set in general, due to the amount of stage control and edgeguarding potential available in this set. (1322 is a good alternative for any characters with a projectile). I'll admit that Tornado is absolutely terrible for coming back, but I do think that it's viable against characters who have trouble with edge guarding off the stage (I.e Fox, Luigi, )

As for the debate between MB and SB, I personally don't find SB to be worth the slot. The potential follow-ups/damage offered from MB are too good to trade for a measly 2-4% and the possibility for slightly more punishing follow-ups. As for the argument over your MB getting caught, you really should rely on using f-tilt while holding MB in your hand; it keeps your opponent guessing for the toss. On top of that, your opponent catching your MB isn't really all that bad since :

A) Pellets eat MB for breakfast
B) They're limiting their own options by holding it. Unless they have projectiles (That there Skull Barrier sure comes in handy), it honestly shouldn't be too troublesome.


Also, I think plant barrier's primary uses are being misunderstood; yes, it functions very similarly to leaf shield (with it's only real downside being longer start up imo), but I believe that plant barrier should primarily be used for edge-guarding, and secondarily being used as an approach tool. By merely standing next to the ledge with plant barrier active, it's extremely easy to cover a huge amount of ledge options, even more so than leaf shield. I've very often found that certain characters can still sweet spot the ledge with it leaf shield, but plant barrier outright denies a large majority of the cast the ability to sweet spot the ledge. After thinking over it a bit, i'm not really sure where I would use leaf shield over plant barrier, especially since neither should really be thrown, and up-close plant barrier is leagues better.

I'm an advocate for beat as well, especially against character who really can't go too deep.

TL;DR: 1323 is amazing. MB> Shadow Blade. Plant Barrier> Leaf Shield.

 

[Wavebird]

Was watching Greyward at Cannes great Megaman by the way, anyways
Here's my final list of Megaman Customs
The list just acts on mostly complementing strengths between each other special while I feel there is still untouched potential,
at the same time I feel there's obvious things that can be used kinda like SkBa(xxx2) is a more offensive tool than people might think it starts up faster ends quicker and can be used as a projectile due to this it also has the added ability of reflecting projectiles.(and while it doesn't damage the opponent that might end up being better in the long run)

So lets get started
1132 1313 1323
First is the Metal Blade Crash bomber duo megamans best range duo
while this set does have long range it also focuses on runaway that's where Beat comes in to fight a slow characters like ganadorf or a more stationary projectile user be it Pacman,rosalina, or Robin and that's why the set is finalized with SkBa but it can also do other things like repel a runaway Lazer Fox due to it's range and reflector.[1132]

Now the next two a kinda similar but I think Rush(xx1x) brings a different mindset than what Tornado Hold(xx2x) does Tornado is more offensive and can be used more on the edge to capitalize and get some damage while Rush is more to pester your opponent with the rebound effect while air dodging like a maniac. Both these move-sets are primarily offensive and have you use the potential of not just Danger Wrap but also the Metal Blade and Plant Barrier setups.[1313 1323]

2131 2312 2323
Hyper bomb is generally unappreciated and while it might end up being weak to the mighty Metal blade it leaves an uneasy feeling considering things like bomb re-grabs and dropping bombs for safely approaching. The combination of Leaf Shield and Hyper bomb gives you a vast array of coverage be it ground or short hopping attacks with the addition of beat it's a piece of cake to setup this combination. Finally with megamans Crash Bomber you have one of the longest reaching setups for a keep-away megaman.[2131]

2312 is mostly attuned for a mid range battle against a projectile heavy character rush does a good job in keeping you at a distance and ready to reflect whenever possible while also giving you the ability to be able to dodge a projectile on reaction. Danger wrap and Hyper bomb are more used for the in game getting in a doing some devastating damage dropping bombs grabs into danger wrap or whichever way you wanna mix it up I personally like doing some grabDW slide set ups but don't know how safe they are.

2323 is mostly designed for a more of a slugfest marth or falcon come to mind while it might not seem as effective or straightforward as the others it does have it's variants. Trading hits on the ledge with Tornado Hold or using the plant barrier plus bomb to do a bit extra damage may pay off greatly against someone who has no projectiles.

3123 3212 3322
Last but not least is Shadow blade while some might not understand there's a really big difference between a long range Shadow blade setup and a mid range one. The first one is a long range the second and third are mid range. Long range means you're looking for the coverage mostly to punish a forward roll or to have it trade off with another projectile mid range is mostly the stylish one you're looking for the backward rolls, grab setups, and if you get lucky a two hit into a normal.

3123 is used mostly as a semi keep away set up with great horizontal coverage that crash bomber gives and added coverage that plant barrier might give on the ledge

3212 is mostly experimental while I did wanted an Ice slasher variant it also would have to be closely related to any Crash bomber variant that being this one comes out off my 3112 it's the same basis as the other rush coil variants and follows the same rules

3322 I already explained in detail in one of my older post but in short it's what I would call the best Anti air moveset

To conclude I hope the list comes to a soon closing considering we still have much to see and learn(well at least I do) and one of those things would pretty much be learning that while others might use something not as efficient or high tier some might say it's still might come in handy learning multiple variants considering some vastly change megaman's approach towards certain matchups

 

[Anomilus]

Good, I was coming in to advocate 312x. I don't care as much which shield MM gets, all three have their use. But I'm definitely preferring Shadow Blades + Crash Bomb to SB+Danger Wrap. The long range and added pressure of a sticky bomb helps out . I get SB+DW being a strong anti-air set, but it feels a tad sluggish. If SB was a tad faster or DW had slightly less cool down, I'd be all for it. Maybe the set requires more dedicated practice.

For now though I'm definitely for 312x. Personally while I enjoy having Plant Barrier or even Leaf Shield, I gave Skull Barrier a shot and I do think the reflection really rounds out this particular set, so I'd like to see 3122 get some consideration.

 

[JmacAttack]

I just saw Ninjalink use 3323, and I am now a firm believer that the set has merit, and needs to be considered and discussed.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618?t=5h13m35s

Shadow Blade can't be caught in midair, and is a setup for a multitude of moves whether shielded or not, from grabs to outright kills. Tornado Hold is a bair kill setup. Danger Wrap and Plant Barrier speak for themselves.

 

[Anomilus]

I just saw Ninjalink use 3323, and I am now a firm believer that the set has merit, and needs to be considered and discussed.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618?t=5h13m35s

Shadow Blade can't be caught in midair, and is a setup for a multitude of moves whether shielded or not, from grabs to outright kills. Tornado Hold is a bair kill setup. Danger Wrap and Plant Barrier speak for themselves.

Indeed, good set that shows off SB.

...Also I think this further affirms that Skull Barrier can really round out Mega Man. Ninjalink did great, but I think MikeKirby's struggling game was brought back to life when he acquired Metal Blades. While Plant Barrier got some positive play in, I can't help but to think how smoother things would have gone if he had Skull Barrier to discourage Metal Blades.

 

[---]

I just saw Ninjalink use 3323, and I am now a firm believer that the set has merit, and needs to be considered and discussed.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618?t=5h13m35s

Shadow Blade can't be caught in midair, and is a setup for a multitude of moves whether shielded or not, from grabs to outright kills. Tornado Hold is a bair kill setup. Danger Wrap and Plant Barrier speak for themselves.

Always good to have video footage. Definitely want to see at least one Shadow Blade set.

Obviously wasn't on purpose, but early on you also see him get the Ice Slasher/Danger Wrap glitch.

 

[DelxDoom]

note- i figured out you can act out of leaf shield seemingly faster than plant barrier, so i changed this post

1321 - metal blade + leaf shield synergy, metal blade + tornado hold synergy, danger wrap sets up a short wall to set up metal blade as an item. overall, the most versatile offensive set.

1331 - same as above, but with better off stage ability, less tornado pokes into bair for KOs. IMO, metal blade is better than shadow blade for edge guarding, but SB has some merit.

3121 - shadow blade + crash bomber. metal blade can be negated by ppl picking it up/rosalina absorb/pocket, so shadow blade can work here. crash bomber has more range than shadow blade giving MM the range option, helps vs luma/villager's tree/lloid also.
i put tornado hold here, but perhaps beat would be preferable to deal with rosalina/villager offstage?


===
stuff i'm not sure about

3323 - ninjalink set, seemed to be risky to use.

rush - while rush has better recovery than tornado, it doesn't have nearly as much offensive capability. it has the gimmicks with launching other people but i'm not sure if it is worth it.

skull barrier - don't see a real reason to use it, maybe 11?2, for best long range zoning then a reflector to beat their possible zoning

bomb - fun to use although idk how effective it really is. don't know which side b would be best in combination.

 

[ChopperDave]

I think 132x is better than 332x, personally, based on my experience in the lab.

Metal Blade seems to have better synergy with Tornado Hold. You can use TH from the ground, then toss a MB at the apex to cancel your landing into any of your options from standing neutral. This is also a great way to get an item MB, as TH -> downward MB -> falling nair does a good job covering your opponent's approach options, and you can hit confirm at all three stages into other useful (and potentially lethal) followups. It can also make for neat juggles.

You can do the similar things with SB, but the timing is wonkier and more difficult to consistently pull off. You have to use SB at a weird height in order to properly cancel the landing from TH.

Also, Danger Wrap -> TH -> MB (either angled or z-dropped) makes for a disgustingly effective ledge guard. It's really hard to get through all those hitboxes unscathed.

Shields I'm still playing around with. I find myself coming back to Leaf Shield because I think it tends to have the greatest overall utility. SB is handy against other heavy projectile users, though, and Plant Barrier can make for some neat edgeguards.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I just saw Ninjalink use 3323, and I am now a firm believer that the set has merit, and needs to be considered and discussed.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618?t=5h13m35s

Shadow Blade can't be caught in midair, and is a setup for a multitude of moves whether shielded or not, from grabs to outright kills. Tornado Hold is a bair kill setup. Danger Wrap and Plant Barrier speak for themselves.

I really liked shadow blade being able to combo into alot of thngs here, especially grab setups. Shadow blade lets megaman have good approaches and active hitboxes. i play a rush down megaman, and i really like throwing out shadow blade into lemons,into grabs, into bairs. using shadowblade as a diagnoal setup at the edge into shoruyken is awesome to land. i got a timestamp video of me pulling it off here http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash/v/3848152?t=1h19m50s

tornado hold was interesting. i really liked how ninjalink could combo tornado hold to back air, but i find tornado hold being risky to use as a safe combo starter on the ground. Ninjalink tried to tornado hold from the ground with MikeKIrby, and you can see tornado hold had a very small hitbox/windbox, making its utility risky when your opponents space away from it.the lag after tornado hold gives an opportunity for a punish. short hopping into tornado hold is a bit safer tho, and edge guarding tornado hold is great. tornado hold is still a baby in its metagame, so i'm curious how tornado hold develops in megaman's customs.

hyper bomb is interesting...i got a combo from 15% to 56% from using hyperbomb here. http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash/v/3848152?t=1h21m8s

 

[ChopperDave]

tornado hold was interesting. i really liked how ninjalink could combo tornado hold to back air, but i find tornado hold being risky to use as a safe combo starter on the ground. Ninjalink tried to tornado hold from the ground with MikeKIrby, and you can see tornado hold had a very small hitbox/windbox, making its utility risky when your opponents space away from it.the lag after tornado hold gives an opportunity for a punish. short hopping into tornado hold is a bit safer tho, and edge guarding tornado hold is great. tornado hold is still a baby in its metagame, so i'm curious how tornado hold develops in megaman's customs.

Check out my video in the Tornado Hold thread for ways to cancel the landing lag. Learning these tricks makes it harder to punish.

 

[Nu~]

Do we really need so many Skull Barrier sets?

The way I see it, there are only a few characters against whom Skull Barrier might be the optimal choice. These are characters who rely on projectile spam in the neutral, or who can use strong projectiles to juggle, edgeguard, or punish landings.

Off the top of my head, that's a fairly short list: ,,, ,,,,,,, . Maybe and too, though I tend to prefer Leaf Shield.

I feel like we could probably optimize our Skull Barrier use for these MUs. Generally, I think 1312 is the way to go for all of these; Crash Bomber tends to get neutralized by all the projectile spam. 1112 may be preferred for and , though I'm not sure the ability to explode hydrants and lloyds really makes up for the loss of Danger Wrap's edgeguarding, juggling, and killing power.

1322 I'm unsure about. It could be good for edgeguarding, juggling, and stage control, which many of the above characters struggle against. On the other hand a lot of these guys, such as ,,,, and have dsmashes with fairly low knockback angles, which could lead us to early deaths if we roll TH.

I would take danger wrap to the pac-man matchup because bombing hydrant with crash bomber isn't exactly useful. Pac man can thrown a cherry to fling the hydrant at you once you lower its hp enough.
Danger wrap does just enough to blow the hydrant up in one hit
(mega man struggles to one shot the hydrant outside of his laggy smash attacks)

 

[DelxDoom]

uhhh doing more tmoding. i like leaf shield over plantbarrier now because you can act out of leaf shield faster

hyper bomb is kind of fun, but not really worth it

 

[JmacAttack]

Obviously wasn't on purpose, but early on you also see him get the Ice Slasher/Danger Wrap glitch.

I did see that. A good bad bug if I ever saw one.

 

[Greward]

Greyward

;_;

 

[DelxDoom]

after playing around with human opponents after training, here are my opinions.

1311 - overall, the least risky. beat doesn't seem good to me because unlike Snake's cypher, it can't be shortened (?)

1321 - best tornado hold set IMO. shadowblade doesn't work with tornado hold as well as metal blade does. this set is by far the one i have most fun with.

1112 - pure horizontal zoning + reflector

3112 - without metal blade, a reflector might be needed for zoning and to make up for shadowblade's lower range, and tornado hold is not quite as useful without metal blade's superior ability to cover landing.

also, shadow blade doesn't quite need the power of danger wrap as shadow blade sets up smashes and other followups. crash bomber's range is probably more useful.

3313 - a more offensive version of the above. danger wrap here is just to have a shadowblade+dangerwrap set.

3123 - shadowblade + tornado hold. IMO not necessary, but gives an option.

IMO, metal blade should be paired with leaf shield over plant barrier due to being able to act out of leaf shield earlier, leading into more possible item shenanigans with metal blade. without metal blade, plant barrier's damage/range are overall more useful.

-------------------
neglected sets:
3113 - shadow blade, crash bomber, rush, plant barrier. the last three sets are all 1 off from this - 3112 might not be necessary and could be 3113?

3323 - i think this set is subpar overall, shadowblade + rush seems safer just because with shadowblade you can't cover landing quite as easily as with metal blade, and you will be playing more in midrange which is generally higher risk.

1121 - metalblade+tornadohold is there, crash bomber over dangerwrap compared to 1321. this set definitely has merit, but i feel like dangerwrap is usually the correct choice due to its power and forward anti air capability. possible tornadohold -> dangerwrap combos.
-------------------
neglected moves:
hyper bomb: i don't think this move is necessary on any set. it can be fun to use, but it takes a long time to actually summon the bomb.

beat: meh, going deep is pretty difficult with megaman, and he doesn't have a lot of moves that cause a deep recovery in the first place.

ice slasher: this move has way too much end lag to be worth it. it doesn't go very far at all.

 

[Jehtt]

Do we have any standard sets with the Ice Shot?

 

[Anomilus]

Do we have any standard sets with the Ice Shot?

Currently no, and it's looking like it's gonna stay that way unless somebody posts some really convincing evidence that it has a niche to fill. Danger Wrap is the favored Side B, and Crash Bomb goes farther and has a more favorable effect on it. Shield piercing isn't really useful in 1v1, and while the freeze-launch effect is interesting, the slow projectile speed is an issue.

 

[Locke 06]

I run 1211 and want to start running 1212 to see how it works, although plant barrier/leaf shield differences are minimal. I'm also working on using Beat more, but the instant vertical from Rush is still very good (and underrated for trumping purposes).

IS fills a stage control niche with instant reward on hit. It is as laggy as danger wrap with better horizontal range/coverage. Combined with how good Mega Man's uair is, it can be really good. That said, I use crash bomb in more MU's than IS. CB>IS>DW for me. If I need to wait to get my kills through Bthrow, BAir, and UAir. Then I'm fine with waiting.



PSA: we have 2 weeks until we need to decide on 10 sets for EVO. lololol. Good luck us.

 

[Overswarm]

No one uses ice slasher and makes money from a tournament. no one

 

[Anomilus]

PSA: we have 2 weeks until we need to decide on 10 sets for EVO. lololol. Good luck us.

That's why I wanna really start locking down what we really want to use, why we want to use it, and what we can live without.

Right now, I genuinely believe we can live without Hyper Bomb, Ice Slasher, and Beat. The first two just need a bit more time, though I've seen and read their applications. The third one's more controversial, having a clear niche in being able to dive really deep below the stage and still recover easily. I just think for now Rush Coil an acceptable comfort pick as every Mega Main is used to it and it's still a very good recovery. Perhaps as we finalize sets there can be one or two where we can genuinely say "Yeah, put Beat on that it'll make the set better".

So from there we confirm our two absolute moves that are going to be most favored: Metal Blades and Danger Wrap. Expect half the sets to have these two.

Then there's the secondary offensive specials: Shadow Blades and Crash Bomb. They'll take less sets, but they should definitely see action as they have their niches and even work well together.

Finally there's the supports: Tornado Hold, Leaf Shield, Skull Barrier, and Plant Barrier. These complement the Neutral and Side specials. It's just a matter of figuring out which combinations cover the greatest gamut of options.

So from here I'm gonna start listing off a bunch of move pairs and trying to identify what they cover. I just wanna see what I come up with off the top of my head. I'll avoid going over combinations that are guaranteed to see action on several sets.

(11xx) MB + CB - Seems obvious, but as Danger Wrap is so favored, I'll add this anyway. Long-range pair for distanced horizontal zoning and pressure.

(31xx) SB + CB - Crash Bombs compliment Shadow Blades, giving the user a long-range option while still maintaining mid-range pressure.

(33xx) SB + DW - Anti-air set, lacks horizontal long range options but excels at mid-range zoning and aerial pressure

(1x2x) MB + TH - Metal Blade drop shenanigans strongly complements Tornado Hold

(3x2x) SB + TH - Not as strong a combination as MB+TH, but it can't be denied it brings support to a less distance focused set.

(1xx3) MB + PB - Slower than Leaf Shield but sturdier and better up-close pressure (I think). Also pairs well for edgeguard tactics.

(1xx2) MB + SkB - For when an opponent's projectile can trump or get around Mega Man's projectiles.

(3xx1) SB + LS - Its relatively quick start-up and duration can compliment Shadow Blade's zone of pressure.

(3xx2) SB + SkB - As Shadow Blade lacks distance, it really benefits to have a reflector in case the opponent shoots lots of projectiles

(x1x2) CB + SkB - Apparently these pair well as Skull Barrier protects Mega Man from his own Crash Bomb explosion.

(xx23) TH + PB - Something about timing Plant Barrier's activation out of Tornado to cancel landing lag. Worth considering.


All right, that's all I can come up with at the moment (it's late for me as it is). Feel free to further explain any of the pairs in my list or even add more pairs that would be worth considering. Again I tried avoiding combinations that I figured would surely see action (MB + DW, Anything + Rush Coil), but if there are combinations that should be detailed regardless, by all means. And if for any reason you think there's a totally viable pair that involves Beat, please explain as well!

Heck, feel free to list any pairs that may not work together optimally. Perhaps something that's done better by another pair or simply don't compliment each other well. That way we can just outright avoid certain setups. Just don't try to downplay single moves. I don't think anything else is going away at this point.

The idea here is to get a real good idea of what Mega Man's vast array of options are and how we can best fortify his custom list by covering as many options as possible, avoiding redundancies but still having enough options to satisfy as many Mega mains as possible. We note the pairs, we piece 'em together, we have our 10 sets.

'Cause right now, trying to explain and validate whole sets is noticeably more difficult and time consuming.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I just saw Ninjalink use 3323, and I am now a firm believer that the set has merit, and needs to be considered and discussed.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618?t=5h13m35s

Shadow Blade can't be caught in midair, and is a setup for a multitude of moves whether shielded or not, from grabs to outright kills. Tornado Hold is a bair kill setup. Danger Wrap and Plant Barrier speak for themselves.

Funny, that's one of the sets I came in to advocate. It's purely a melee/trap set and it works wonders. So I'll put at least a vote in for 3323 as well.

First of all, if you want to use MB to its full potential, it's best to throw it on the ground, pick it up, and throw it at the opponent. You can do great combos, safely pressure and harrass. The problem with this is... it isn't a threat from long distance if the opponent is patient, and decides to catch it, or simply block it. In addition, when you have MB in your hands, your options become very limited, and can easily be shielded by a player who is smart and just anticipates your throw.

Also, thanks to c-stick and z-dropping, Mega Man can do plenty while holding his blade beside just throwing it.

 

[Blue24]

What I didn't like about that Shadow Blade set is that the Kirby could just sit back throw out attacks and it probaly would cancel the blade. IMO, crash bomber would have been a bit better to use in the last two matches.

 

[Sleek Media]

I just saw Ninjalink use 3323, and I am now a firm believer that the set has merit, and needs to be considered and discussed.

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618?t=5h13m35s

Shadow Blade can't be caught in midair, and is a setup for a multitude of moves whether shielded or not, from grabs to outright kills. Tornado Hold is a bair kill setup. Danger Wrap and Plant Barrier speak for themselves.

WTF?! Watch carefully at 05:16:02. He very clearly has TWO DWs out. Is this a thing?

 

[Sleek Media]

Oh, and I want to see 2323. Hyper Bomb is interesting, and there are currently no sets for it. Scrap one of the Skull Barrier sets.

 

[Overswarm]

How many of you guys actually enter tournaments? The EVO sets aren't "I'd love to see this set used!" it's "does someone use this set? Is it a viable set?"


Beat is better than Rush in every meaningful way. There are like, two matchups you might want to use rush in.

Tornado hold is really bad. No one should use it. Its offensive capabilities don't compensate for the fact that you have a linear recovery. People will adapt, you will get gimped. There's a reason everyone who uses tornado hold uses TH first and then their second jump to grab the ledge.

Rush is okay and has some neat aspects to him, but is incredibly gimpable.

Crash bomber is pretty bad. It has its uses and some neat setups, but is ultimately outshone by danger wrap. The only exception is maybe vs. someone like Rosalina since CB explodes on contact with luma.

Ice Slasher is really bad.

Metal Blade is absolutely amazing, but can be stolen from you. When they steal it, your nair beats any throw options they have. This is only an issue in a few matchups, generally ones where the opponent has a projectile and/or they are already a problem.

Shadowblade is really bad; it only true combos at a set distance and you are stuck in lag for forever. You can literally shield the first hit and punish megaman before the second one comes around. The only advantage shadow blade has is that people can't steal it like they can metal blade.

Hyper Bomb is not very good and incredibly punishable. It has some neat effects but you're sacrificing metal blade so it goes in the garbage can.

All the shields are useful; plant shield is superior to leaf shield in every facet save for speed. Unless you're using leaf shield on stage to approach (not from the sky or for footstooling), plant is superior. You can throw leaf shield but everyone should know by now that its not worth it for that reason. Skull barrier is useful in virtually all matchups as both a windbox and a very weak projectile at the very least; you can actually use it vs. MK and not get infinite shuttle loops like you can with regular shields. It's pretty neat.

You can basically scratch every set that has ice slasher, hyper bomb, and to a lesser extent tornado hold and shadowblade. I say lesser extent because NL used it and while I'd imagine he used it and said "oh, this is way worse" and is stopping, if he's going he might want to use it.

 

[Blade Knight]

At the current point in our meta development I'd have to agree with Overswarm, EVO isnt' a testing ground. I'd say almost any Mega Man in EVO should be running 133x where x=2 vs projectiles and 3 otherwise. But acting like these moves can't develop or see good use in some matchups is kind of silly, imo.

Maybe next year's EVO or at smaller weekly events until then testing out Shadow Blade/Ice Slasher/Hyper Bomb/Tornado Hold will be great because I've seen Tornado Hold, Hyper Bomb, and Shadow Blade put to decent use, but right now we simply don't have enough experience with them (in general) yet. But I will stand by people saying these customs fill nice niches and can be very useful in certain matchups.

 

[ChopperDave]

How many of you guys actually enter tournaments? The EVO sets aren't "I'd love to see this set used!" it's "does someone use this set? Is it a viable set?"


Beat is better than Rush in every meaningful way. There are like, two matchups you might want to use rush in.

Tornado hold is really bad. No one should use it. Its offensive capabilities don't compensate for the fact that you have a linear recovery. People will adapt, you will get gimped. There's a reason everyone who uses tornado hold uses TH first and then their second jump to grab the ledge.

Rush is okay and has some neat aspects to him, but is incredibly gimpable.

Crash bomber is pretty bad. It has its uses and some neat setups, but is ultimately outshone by danger wrap. The only exception is maybe vs. someone like Rosalina since CB explodes on contact with luma.

Ice Slasher is really bad.

Metal Blade is absolutely amazing, but can be stolen from you. When they steal it, your nair beats any throw options they have. This is only an issue in a few matchups, generally ones where the opponent has a projectile and/or they are already a problem.

Shadowblade is really bad; it only true combos at a set distance and you are stuck in lag for forever. You can literally shield the first hit and punish megaman before the second one comes around. The only advantage shadow blade has is that people can't steal it like they can metal blade.

Hyper Bomb is not very good and incredibly punishable. It has some neat effects but you're sacrificing metal blade so it goes in the garbage can.

All the shields are useful; plant shield is superior to leaf shield in every facet save for speed. Unless you're using leaf shield on stage to approach (not from the sky or for footstooling), plant is superior. You can throw leaf shield but everyone should know by now that its not worth it for that reason. Skull barrier is useful in virtually all matchups as both a windbox and a very weak projectile at the very least; you can actually use it vs. MK and not get infinite shuttle loops like you can with regular shields. It's pretty neat.

You can basically scratch every set that has ice slasher, hyper bomb, and to a lesser extent tornado hold and shadowblade. I say lesser extent because NL used it and while I'd imagine he used it and said "oh, this is way worse" and is stopping, if he's going he might want to use it.

Oh... kay...?

I understand if certain moves don't fit your playstyle, but I think it's a little early to write off all these customs as unviable, especially given how little meta development some of them have had.

I think you're giving Tornado Hold and Rush short shrift, for example. I won't contest that they are easier to gimp than Beat, but gimpability ain't everything. Rush makes it way easier to ledge trump, which is useful for sealing KOs in some matchups, and can be used to stall on stage. Tornado Hold has a ton of neat stage control, juggling, and edgeguarding applications. It's arguably worth making Mega Man more gimpable in order to gain these offensive tools.

I do agree, though, that we shouldn't waste our EVO sets on a bunch of unproven loadouts. If you've got a unique loadout that no one else is arguing for (say, 2323), put up a video showing its viability in a tournament setting. If you're actually going to rep Mega Man at EVO, say so.

Otherwise I like the idea of trying to figure out an "ideal" Tornado Hold set, an "ideal" Ice Slasher set, etc. That way people have access to those moves if they want them, and maybe we'll get a little more tournament footage.

 

[Sleek Media]

I got top 8 at Xanadu using Mega Man with Rosalina as my second, not that it matters. If you want to see the Mega Man meta develop, then stop spreading misinformation about the viability of specials. We don't need ten variations of danger wrap+metal blade. This is the first time I've even seen someone suggest that shadow blade is worthless. Out of all the character boards, you guys should know better than to write off moves which don't have obvious strength or use. Most people wrote off Mega Man as a character for a solid month after the game came out, and even Mega Man mains took at least that long to start using leaf shield, much less figure out how to use it well. Many Mega Man mains still barely use it, so don't tell me that we can't have any hyper bomb sets because you can't figure out how they work.

For 2323 specifically, the delay on Hyper Bombs is WHY they're good. Unlike every other attack we have, special or otherwise, an opponent can't just run up to a hyper bomb, powershield, and continue attacking. Even our shields can be beaten by run up->shield->grab. They create frame traps, especially when thrown straight down. They also compliment tornado hold well, and can be used to attack out of it on hit confirm, dealing healthy damage without staling our precious bAir. Finally, because they arc, they are much better able to strike opponents who can quickly change their direction midair, like Yoshi, who literally craps all over metal blade and shadow blade.

 

[Greward]

Overswarm's post is kind of rude but I pretty much agree with him.
Beat is harder to use until you get used to it, but it's a better option at high level. Rush is too predictable. When playing against good players like Mr R I get extremely abused when recovering, obviously the Sheik matchup is one we have to use beat anyways but a lot of characters can abuse Rush predictability whether hitting us on the ledge grab frame vulnerability or just hitting us because straight up is the only way we can go with it. Although Rush has some cool thinks so it's a thing in quite some matchups (i'd take rush against ROB for example).
I don't like TH but hey, might be good, not sure. Our recovery becomes doctor mario tier but maybe it's good enough of a tool in some matchups or stages (BF / T&C let us perform low risk TH for example, since you can land in the higher platform).
I think SB and HB are not bad, but they are not worth losing metal blade ever imo. Might work as a gimmick for a game tho.
Skull barrier might be a better option in some matchups that don't even have projectiles. I believe plant shield is better than leaf shield most of the time but I'm used to leaf shield and it's not that much of a difference so i don't really care.

 

[Anomilus]

I understand Overswarm's sentiment, as it's similar to mine. We need to start making some hard decisions and really nail down what we want in and what we can do without at this time. I do think he's going in a bit too hard however. 'Cause doing it his way once again overly centralizes Metal Blade; All ten sets being 1xxx. It's not wrong to have options even at this point, and none of them are "really bad" nor are they easily cast aside. I'm also not too concerned on experience. We have decent knowledge on most of MM's customs, and the next 3 months will only further deepen our understanding if we remain dedicated. Sure it's possible sometime down the line we decide "Oh, maybe this move/setup wasn't so hot. Dang, we can't change it". But again I'm not too concerned.

I really do think we need to look at this from my suggested perspective: pairs and option covering. Looking at each and every move on its own and entire sets is time taxing. There's many opinions on what single move should get focused, and many more opinions on what sets deserve a slot and why. I know "opinion" isn't a good word for this as we want facts, but that be playstyles for ya.

But pairing moves groups Mega Man's available options while still remaining open to additional suggestions.


Seriously, we know 13xx is gonna be a thing. Now all it needs is a few supporting pairs to round it out and cover as many options as we can, and we'll have a few sets already.

xx31 vs xx33 - So let's just say Beat is the focused recovery of choice. Then it's just Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier.
xx11/xx13 vs xx31/xx33 - On the other hand, we may be wasting time trying to decide between Beat and Rush. This here requires a hard decision (Personally I can adapt to Beat if necessary).

Now we could decide "We'll take Beat over Rush, but we'll keep both LS and PB". In that case we have 1331 & 1333. We should ask ourselves then "Does this cover enough areas for Mega Man, or is this a bit redundant despite the differences?" There's also the option of xx32 that wasn't mentioned. Does 13xx really require a reflector? If the answer is "Yes", then there; We got ourselves a set in 1332, covering what it can for Mega Man, the important part being we have 13xx. We can then move on to xx21, xx22, and xx23, deciding how Tornado Hold fits into this.


Streamlining this a bit wouldn't hurt, really. Neither would some hard choices. We have to get more rigid at this point. But neither do we need to bench everything that may have a superior.

 

[DelxDoom]

shadowblade does have its uses, mostly as an anti air projectile where it can still be outprioritized by aerials. but it's not too bad.
if beat is truly superior to rush, then work in beat sets i suppose.

are we working on 6 sets, or 10?

if 6, i think we should do
1333 - danger wrap, beat, plant.
1332 - danger wrap, beat, skull
1321 - i still think tornado hold is legitimate, if risky. if this set isn't popular, then can put 1311 instead
1131 - just beat. should it have skull?
3133 - shadowblade set. crash beat plant.
2323 - bomb / tornado, if this is the best bomb set. perhaps leaf over plant for speed?

--- with 10, i think the above 6, plus
1311/1321, whichever isn't included above
1132 - both horizontals + skull
3333 - shadow/danger/beat/plant
3323 - shadow/danger/tornado/plant

 

[Overswarm]

Who here is going to Evo?

The most popular megaman setup is going to be 1311 or 1312. 1333 is going to be pretty close. 133x (1, 2, 3) are good and likely better, but not as popular as of yet. That's 6 - 131x and 133x - and it doesn't include crash bomb.

Do we have anyone who is attending Evo? I am not -- I just play Megaman in tournament.