Meta Custom Moveset Project: Mega Man

[Sleek Media]

I find HB even tougher to use than MB against rushdown characters like Sheik and Falcon. It comes out slower, has longer cooldown, and can get caught like MB can. I may need to try to play around with it more, but my experience is that HB gets beaten out by most aerial approaches, which hurts its utility as a defensive tool. TH is generally better and more consistent for punishing dash approaches.

HB seems like to work best when you have the time and space to use it offensively to set up traps. This is why it can work well at the ledge. You can do things like toss it straight up and then go for a dsmash read, confident that even if you miss the HB will blow up your opponent if he tries to punish. It's less good in footsies, especially when you have an opponent that can close space quickly.

The other thing I like about MB is that you can still use it if it misses. A whiffed HB just blows up and goes away, but a whiffed MB can still be z-grabbed and converted into a useful weapon. I like full hopping and throwing MBs down because they can be hit confirmed into a grab or usmash if my opponent gets caught by it, and can be picked up and used as an item if they keep their distance.

On Plant Barrier, I agree with everything you say. The only thing that makes me continue to favor LS is PB's slooooooow startup time. I could live without LS's range, but PB is just harder to get out when you're under any level or pressure, especially when you're up against a speedy character who can kick or grab you out of it during the startup frames.

How are you using HB? It certainly isn't a substitute for MB...approaching with it is much harder, and b-reversing with it is much less useful. I do find it superior for the following:

1) Creating space when facing rushdown mindgames with a back jump->dThrow HB
2) Anti-air attacking, especially when thrown
3) Mixing up between short hop down HB and diagonal down forward HB walls pretty well with mega buster
4) Offstage play in general - that little lob when throwing it down makes it easy to create a frame trap
5) Better punish opportunities for opponents recovering high both on stage and off
6) The arc makes it more useful in projectile wars. MBs can sometimes be aimed very precisely for headshots, but it's hard.
7) With an opponent at the ledge, you can cover more get up options, and maybe create a trap if the bomb is thrown.

I think the most important factor though is whether it actually helps out against speedsters or not. We're just going to have to play the best people we can and try to make an objective judgement.

With LS/PB, I don't think you can activate either when your opponent is actively pressuring you. I only activate them when they are out of mega buster range, I am recovering from above, or the opponent is attempting to return to the stage. Rush's "eject button" functionality can be useful for getting away quickly with enough room to pull up a quick shield when you are feeling overwhelmed. I use the shields more than most Mega Man mains, but I think it's justified. You can disrupt even high level players very easily with a good shield activation. With their options reduced, you can get control back even if you don't get any damage off.

 

[ChopperDave]

How are you using HB? It certainly isn't a substitute for MB...approaching with it is much harder, and b-reversing with it is much less useful. I do find it superior for the following:

1) Creating space when facing rushdown mindgames with a back jump->dThrow HB
2) Anti-air attacking, especially when thrown
3) Mixing up between short hop down HB and diagonal down forward HB walls pretty well with mega buster
4) Offstage play in general - that little lob when throwing it down makes it easy to create a frame trap
5) Better punish opportunities for opponents recovering high both on stage and off
6) The arc makes it more useful in projectile wars. MBs can sometimes be aimed very precisely for headshots, but it's hard.
7) With an opponent at the ledge, you can cover more get up options, and maybe create a trap if the bomb is thrown.

I think the most important factor though is whether it actually helps out against speedsters or not. We're just going to have to play the best people we can and try to make an objective judgement.

With LS/PB, I don't think you can activate either when your opponent is actively pressuring you. I only activate them when they are out of mega buster range, I am recovering from above, or the opponent is attempting to return to the stage. Rush's "eject button" functionality can be useful for getting away quickly with enough room to pull up a quick shield when you are feeling overwhelmed. I use the shields more than most Mega Man mains, but I think it's justified. You can disrupt even high level players very easily with a good shield activation. With their options reduced, you can get control back even if you don't get any damage off.

I've used HB in the ways you've described, though I'll admit I've only used it in a few dozen matches against a handful of players. Like I said, while It had its uses, particularly when I had some space/time to set things up, it just felt like I was giving up a ton of control in the neutral game. When I switched back to Metal Blade I noticed an immediate difference; I went from retreating all the time and trying to set things up, to controlling the pace of the match and forcing my opponents on the defensive. It may just be a playstyle thing, but that's worth a lot to me.

With Leaf Shield, I activate it in the situations you described, but also in a few others.

It's pretty easy to slip in during neutral: fake a full hop or double jump approach, b-reverse a LS backwards. If you're against someone with poor OOS options, you can do the same thing but landing behind them. It's hard to punish this on reaction, because we can just land and shield, and that covers us against pretty much everything but a grab that outranges the leaves.

LS can also be handy as a "third option" during juggle traps. Against Falcon, for example, I'll sometimes b-reverse a LS activation to escape his juggles, as most Falcons expect you to try to either jump/UpB or fast fall to stage. This can catch them unawares and is quick enough that they can't seem to punish it unless they read it.

I also like to use it when recovering UpB before double jump. UpB, activate Leaf Shield, jump and airdodge toward the stage. Even if they somehow manage to hit you before you double jump, you almost always have enough time to wall jump / double jump again and then UpB again when the LS wears off.

It's harder to pull off this stuff with Plant Barrier. The longer start up time makes it tougher to use without telegraphing it, and easier to punish on reaction. It's a slight enough difference that I understand why people would favor it over LS. But in my personal experience, I've been frustrated more often by getting punished during PB's lengthy startup time than I have by eating the occasional dash attack that pierces through LS's hitboxes.

 

[Sleek Media]

Well, got a chance to use Skull Barrier more extensively today. It is GODLY against custom Villager. Danger Wrap seems to be less useful than I was led to believe. What do you set it up with? I also played with Beat for a while, but didn't find any major advantages over Rush.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Danger Wrap against a Villager won't find much use as Villagers won't be in that attack range very often.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Mega Man:

1, 3, 1/3, 1/2/3 niche: 3XXX, XX2X

1311, 1312, 1313, 1331, 1332, 1333

Mega Man has proven difficult, and we only have 10 slots. My personal suggestion is that we use these six sets and run a simple poll for the best Shadow Blade and Tornado Hold sets, giving each two slots. Crash Bomber is also a move but is implicitly included via default, though it might be worth including 1112 as a set specifically for the Villager match-up (only give Shadow Blade one set in that case?). Hyper Bomb keeps being brought up, but honestly, Mega Man is extremely space limited and it seems like "experimental" is the kindest word that can be said about the move. Does the move truly have enough real merit to be worth sacrificing other real options to include it?

In any case, with only 10 days left, we need to hurry. Let's figure out what our plan is for a procedure quickly so any polls we may need have a full week to run.

 

[Jehtt]

I don't think having Crash Bomb will make or break the Villager matchup, but I'd still like to have it. I take this back. I think 1112 is an important set to have for this character alone. I wouldn't mind if Shadow Blade only had one set, because I have not seen any proof of it's effectiveness. This is not the time to throw experimental sets onto the list.

 

[Sleek Media]

That is far too many Metal Blade+Danger Wrap sets, and they are based completely on the theorycraft that MB is the fastest and has the most range, therefore HB and SB have no worthwhile setups or uses. Unless you guys have some guaranteed DW combos I'm not aware of, I don't see why you want a move that you're going to land maybe three or four times a match and give up all the pressure and range of CB..

 

[Jehtt]

That is far too many Metal Blade+Danger Wrap sets, and they are based completely on the theorycraft that MB is the fastest and has the most range, therefore HB and SB have no worthwhile setups or uses. Unless you guys have some guaranteed DW combos I'm not aware of, I don't see why you want a move that you're going to land maybe three or four times a match and give up all the pressure and range of CB..

I feel you don't understand the point of the danger wrap.

The danger wrap is very much about control. It essentially gives you control of a large above Mega Man. Should your opponent be caught in it's radius while in the air, they only have 2 useful options.
1. Air dodge. If you read this, you can get a VERY meaty punish with Bair or U-air, depending on the percents. If they don't have a second jump, most characters are forced to do this. Only a few have the aerial mobility to get out of the way.
2. Jump away. When they do this, you now have complete control of the stage for a longer period of time. You can use this time to easily set up a leaf shield or metal blade.
If the move does hit (which happens more often than you are giving it credit for), that's a free 13 damage. This is more than an uncharged F-smash.
It also forces opponents to recover low if you use it on the edge, since recovery high could lead to them getting hit, and it's not a risk worth taking. This has fantastic synergy with z-dropped Metal Blades and Leafstooling.
The danger wrap also covers platforms, particularly those on Battlefield, quite well.

It's not a move that you are meant to land 100% of the time; it's a move you use to put yourself in a better position to use other moves. It doesn't hurt that it comes out fast and has more damage than a smash attack, though. <3

 

[Sleek Media]

I feel you don't understand the point of the danger wrap.

The danger wrap is very much about control. It essentially gives you control of a large above Mega Man. Should your opponent be caught in it's radius while in the air, they only have 2 useful options.
1. Air dodge. If you read this, you can get a VERY meaty punish with Bair or U-air, depending on the percents. If they don't have a second jump, most characters are forced to do this. Only a few have the aerial mobility to get out of the way.
2. Jump away. When they do this, you now have complete control of the stage for a longer period of time. You can use this time to easily set up a leaf shield or metal blade.
If the move does hit (which happens more often than you are giving it credit for), that's a free 13 damage. This is more than an uncharged F-smash.
It also forces opponents to recover low if you use it on the edge, since recovery high could lead to them getting hit, and it's not a risk worth taking. This has fantastic synergy with z-dropped Metal Blades and Leafstooling.
The danger wrap also covers platforms, particularly those on Battlefield, quite well.

It's not a move that you are meant to land 100% of the time; it's a move you use to put yourself in a better position to use other moves. It doesn't hurt that it comes out fast and has more damage than a smash attack, though. <3

That is theorycraft. In practice, we don't have enough speed to chase opponents down, much less off of an airdodge. On the contrary, if you use it to try and control platforms on Battlefield, you're the one who's going to take damage unless your opponent cannot move at all for some other reason. It's basically a slightly displaced air shooter, which would be fine if you could actually pair it with AS for frame traps, but you can't even do that because of how slow it is. The only time you're likely to hit or get a forced punish is if you can read someone jumping into you. Yeah the damage is very good (for a reason), but that doesn't matter if you can't hit anything with it, or get hits because of it.

I think you can combo situationally with TH, which would be a good way to rack up damage, but it's not consistent enough.

Which characters do you specifically think are better fought with DW than CB?

 

[Jehtt]

That is theorycraft.

I've put these strategies to practice in various online tournaments have consistently placed well. I realize that doesn't mean much to a majority of people here, but I'm not just speaking from assumption.

In practice, we don't have enough speed to chase opponents down, much less off of an airdodge.

Fair, Bair, and U-Air work wonders for air dodge punishment.

On the contrary, if you use it to try and control platforms on Battlefield, you're the one who's going to take damage unless your opponent cannot move at all for some other reason.

How much endlag do you think this move has? It's about the same as the CB.

Which characters do you specifically think are better fought with DW than CB?

Anyone who likes to come at you from the air, or be in the air a lot.. Sheik comes to mind. ZSS, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, and Yoshi come to mind as well.

I think you're overall severely under-rating the move. I won't pretend it's a straight up replacement to the Crash Bomb, but it has a ton of good uses and niches that the crash bomb simply cannot fulfill.

 

[---]

I'd just go off of AA's list for now and sacrifice one of the two TH or SB slots for 1112 (probably SB).

With TH though, it's pretty much as far as I can tell: 132X

In which case I'd go with 1322 & 1321(3) assuming people can decide on the latter.


Shadow Blade is a bit harder, so would anyone object to a visible poll with a write-in option containing the following sets?:

3111
3112
3113
3121
3122
3123
3311
3312
3313
3321
3322
3323
3333

 

[Anomilus]

I wouldn't object to a Shadow Blade poll.

I'll still be promoting 3122 and 3123 in any case (favoring 3122 for its versatility). I'll be cool if a 33xx set gets in, but only alongside one of my choice.

 

[ScAtt77]

I'm a heavy advocate of 1323 ( and 1322 if there's room available).

Does anyone else feel that having one set for one particular is a little wasteful? Villager is far from the most played character in the game, and even with his amazing customs, I don't think that it warrants us dedicating 1112 and changing a single custom for the sake of that match-up alone.


I honestly don't think that Shadow Blade deserves a slot at all. I can't think of a single match-up where Metal Blade doesn't do its job better. Even with reference from the Ninjalink video, i'm not convinced that the move is worth running in place of Metal Blade. Once the kirby adapted and simply started to shield the returning hit and d-tilt, Ninjalink was hard pressed to actually use Shadow Blade since it put him in a decent amount of cooldown from a relatively close distance.


Now this may be a little controversial, but I personally believe that the combination of Plant Barrier/ Skull Barrier is better than Leaf Shield in almost every way. Any match-up where Leaf Shield is applied more efficiently is generally covered even better by Skull Barrier. You'll almost never use Leaf Shield/ Plant Barrier in a high-pressure situation regardless of the start-up, so that leaves Leaf Shield's one strength over Plant Barrier: the distance thrown. However, when you want to throw Leaf Shield, It's usually used to eat up other projectiles, which Skull Barrier obviously does a better job at handling.

 

[mega4000]

Danger Wrap against a Villager won't find much use as Villagers won't be in that attack range very often.

that depends completly on how you play the match up. If you are used to fight against crappy villager who release the tree and remains behind that, of course you would feel confortable with crash bomb. But that is stupid specially when using skull barrier you have all the reasons to go agressive because it reverts even his dash attack and bowling ball. If you play with skull barrier danger wrap will seal the deal.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I'm a heavy advocate of 1323 ( and 1322 if there's room available).

Does anyone else feel that having one set for one particular is a little wasteful? Villager is far from the most played character in the game, and even with his amazing customs, I don't think that it warrants us dedicating 1112 and changing a single custom for the sake of that match-up alone.


I honestly don't think that Shadow Blade deserves a slot at all. I can't think of a single match-up where Metal Blade doesn't do its job better. Even with reference from the Ninjalink video, i'm not convinced that the move is worth running in place of Metal Blade. Once the kirby adapted and simply started to shield the returning hit and d-tilt, Ninjalink was hard pressed to actually use Shadow Blade since it put him in a decent amount of cooldown from a relatively close distance.


Now this may be a little controversial, but I personally believe that the combination of Plant Barrier/ Skull Barrier is better than Leaf Shield in almost every way. Any match-up where Leaf Shield is applied more efficiently is generally covered even better by Skull Barrier. You'll almost never use Leaf Shield/ Plant Barrier in a high-pressure situation regardless of the start-up, so that leaves Leaf Shield's one strength over Plant Barrier: the distance thrown. However, when you want to throw Leaf Shield, It's usually used to eat up other projectiles, which Skull Barrier obviously does a better job at handling.

i know people have been saying they prefer leaf shield over plant shield because of less starup lag and cuz it can be thrown in far distance. but to me, leaf shield lacks the active hitboxes plant shield gives and if you get knocked out the stage with leaf shield, it still takes a bit to cool down and recover with up b, while plant shield is a move that has startup lag, but it goes away really fast, and you dont have to waste time by throwing it and having cool down. also, i dont use down b as a projectile as a mix-up option. i just dont see leaf shield being useful in most cases (maybe in particular ones), cuz you get cool down lag after its thrown, and by the time you follow up, your opponent is already recovering. while plant shield has an awesome hit box that gets you grabs, better than leafshield, and can provide better ledge control, cuz of plant shield's active hitboxes

 

[mega4000]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Mega Man:

1, 3, 1/3, 1/2/3 niche: 3XXX, XX2X

1311, 1312, 1313, 1331, 1332, 1333

Mega Man has proven difficult, and we only have 10 slots. My personal suggestion is that we use these six sets and run a simple poll for the best Shadow Blade and Tornado Hold sets, giving each two slots. Crash Bomber is also a move but is implicitly included via default, though it might be worth including 1112 as a set specifically for the Villager match-up (only give Shadow Blade one set in that case?). Hyper Bomb keeps being brought up, but honestly, Mega Man is extremely space limited and it seems like "experimental" is the kindest word that can be said about the move. Does the move truly have enough real merit to be worth sacrificing other real options to include it?

In any case, with only 10 days left, we need to hurry. Let's figure out what our plan is for a procedure quickly so any polls we may need have a full week to run.

I oppose to this completly. Why we don't have the tornado hold sets in the main six when the move is so important? why Beat is considering more important when more people play as tornado hold? also, plant barrier without tornado hold is competly useless, I suggest erasing 1313 and 1333 to add 1321 and 1322 the most important tornado hold sets. Then you can add the rest, but dropping tornado hold specially when it screams future meta because all the AT it has, is completly stupid.

i know people have been saying they prefer leaf shield over plant shield because of less starup lag and cuz it can be thrown in far distance. but to me, leaf shield lacks the active hitboxes plant shield gives and if you get knocked out the stage with leaf shield, it still takes a bit to cool down and recover with up b, while plant shield is a move that has startup lag, but it goes away really fast, and you dont have to waste time by throwing it and having cool down. also, i dont use down b as a projectile as a mix-up option. i just dont see leaf shield being useful in most cases (maybe in particular ones), cuz you get cool down lag after its thrown, and by the time you follow up, your opponent is already recovering. while plant shield has an awesome hit box that gets you grabs, better than leafshield, and can provide better ledge control, cuz of plant shield's active hitboxes

I really think plant barrier is just working right now because people don't know how to deal with it. On the ledge, it takes longer to release so you won't be able to gimp as fast as with LS. They regain their up b every time the leaf hits them, and if they grab the ledge they can roll and evade every single leaf with no consequence and since the leafs from the plant barrier push your opponent you won't be able to grab them so easily after a roll. Also I think plant barrier only works with tornado hold, because after a rush or beat you will get lag, releasing it on the ground will give you a lot of lag too and at least with tornado hold you can set a barrier that protects you while you are releasing it, because without that every good player will know that you are free while you are releasing your down b. (They will escape if they see you using the plant barrier too so without tornado hold there is no way you will set that against a player who knows what he is doing. At least leaf shield can be thrown if they try to run away).

 

[Jehtt]

I wouldn't mind dropping 1333 in favor of another tornado hold set. We could also replace 1333 with 1112, then have 3 slots for the tornado hold and one slot for the shadow blade.

 

[Sleek Media]

Obviously, the idea of "10 defined sets" doesn't work. Future tournaments should just allow the players to use their own sets. Much easier. Inb4 "I sold my 3DS" complaints.

 

[Jehtt]

Obviously, the idea of "10 defined sets" doesn't work. Future tournaments should just allow the players to use their own sets. Much easier. Inb4 "I sold my 3DS" complaints.

You should take this complaint to the main Standard Custom Moves project thread. This isn't the place to talk about this issue.

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't care. You can do it if it bothers you.

 

[---]

So this is all we've agreed upon so far:

1311
1321(3)
1322
Shadow Blade Set

That leaves 6 more slots, to which I'll just go ahead and start a SB poll.

I oppose to this completly. Why we don't have the tornado hold sets in the main six when the move is so important? why Beat is considering more important when more people play as tornado hold? also, plant barrier without tornado hold is competly useless, I suggest erasing 1313 and 1333 to add 1321 and 1322 the most important tornado hold sets. Then you can add the rest, but dropping tornado hold specially when it screams future meta because all the AT it has, is completly stupid.

Calm down a little bit. His suggestion has TH with a minimum of two sets which covers the two key sets you listed.

I wouldn't mind dropping 1333 in favor of another tornado hold set. We could also replace 1333 with 1112, then have 3 slots for the tornado hold and one slot for the shadow blade.

So a TH set for 1321,1322, 1323?

 

[Jehtt]

Does anyone object to 1112? I don't feel it is a waste of a slot.

 

[p1ay6ack]

Does anyone object to 1112? I don't feel it is a waste of a slot.

its a defensive set against projectiles, and to me, i wouldn't use it, even against a villager. i'd rather make use of other custom sets that make megaman more aggro

 

[Sleek Media]

Skull Barrier doesn't need any particular pairing. Probably wouldn't stick it with Beat though, since you're gonna need some way to mix up your high recoveries.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I oppose to this completly. Why we don't have the tornado hold sets in the main six when the move is so important? why Beat is considering more important when more people play as tornado hold? also, plant barrier without tornado hold is competly useless, I suggest erasing 1313 and 1333 to add 1321 and 1322 the most important tornado hold sets. Then you can add the rest, but dropping tornado hold specially when it screams future meta because all the AT it has, is completly stupid.


I really think plant barrier is just working right now because people don't know how to deal with it. On the ledge, it takes longer to release so you won't be able to gimp as fast as with LS. They regain their up b every time the leaf hits them, and if they grab the ledge they can roll and evade every single leaf with no consequence and since the leafs from the plant barrier push your opponent you won't be able to grab them so easily after a roll. Also I think plant barrier only works with tornado hold, because after a rush or beat you will get lag, releasing it on the ground will give you a lot of lag too and at least with tornado hold you can set a barrier that protects you while you are releasing it, because without that every good player will know that you are free while you are releasing your down b. (They will escape if they see you using the plant barrier too so without tornado hold there is no way you will set that against a player who knows what he is doing. At least leaf shield can be thrown if they try to run away).

that's the thing about plant shield. it's better to wait for it to run out, and its better than leaf shield at this.

plant shield has a bigger hitbox to keep your opponent from grabbing the ledge. i stood at the edge of the stage with plant shield, and my opponent couldnt grab the ledge. this makes your opp have less of a chance of them doing that ledge to roll tech youre talking about. and if they do, it's best to stay in place.

plant barrier doesn't push your opp tho. that's skull barrier.

tornado hold and plant barrier might be a good combo. i really dont like the end lag.

leaf shield can be thrown, but i hate the end lag to it :\

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

What is the point of 1322 again? I don't see the synergy between Tornado Hold and Skull Barrier. Someone tell me which match up needs this set please.

 

[ChopperDave]

What is the point of 1322 again? I don't see the synergy between Tornado Hold and Skull Barrier. Someone tell me which match up needs this set please.

Well, I find that Tornado Hold's main use onstage is as stage control. After setting it up, you can fast fall behind it (while using another attack to cancel the landing and create additional hitboxes) and you don't have to worry about getting hit by most melee attacks. Makes it quite good for punishing approaches and pressuring people you've cornered against the ledge.

The problem with this is that if you've got an opponent who can punish your landing with a strong projectile, there's not much you can do except eat it, unless you time your TH landing cancels so that you can shield as soon as you land (possible, but somewhat hard to do with some attacks). This makes characters like Duck Hunt and Greninja dangerous, theoretically. Skull Barrier eliminates the threat of projectile-based landing punishes, as you can just throw it up as you're coming down from the TH.

This is all just theory for me though. I've used TH a lot against my friends, but they all main characters who I don't really need SB against, so I can't really say how useful it truly is.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

Well, I find that Tornado Hold's main use onstage is as stage control. After setting it up, you can fast fall behind it (while using another attack to cancel the landing and create additional hitboxes) and you don't have to worry about getting hit by most melee attacks. Makes it quite good for punishing approaches and pressuring people you've cornered against the ledge.

The problem with this is that if you've got an opponent who can punish your landing with a strong projectile, there's not much you can do except eat it, unless you time your TH landing cancels so that you can shield as soon as you land (possible, but somewhat hard to do with some attacks). This makes characters like Duck Hunt and Greninja dangerous, theoretically. Skull Barrier eliminates the threat of projectile-based landing punishes, as you can just throw it up as you're coming down from the TH.

This is all just theory for me though. I've used TH a lot against my friends, but they all main characters who I don't really need SB against, so I can't really say how useful it truly is.

Why use TH against projectile characters? If they have projectiles and you want stage control, just run up with SB active and a MB in hand or use pellets. With TH being the worst move for recovery, I wouldn't want to use it against people who are more likely to hit me when I am off stage.

In my mind, TH = Incredible disruption move and great stage presence = Use against melee characters.
That doesn't go well with SB, a move only for projectile characters.

 

[Locke 06]

If you decide to throw up skull barrier trying to land against Greninja, you're going to get dash grabbed, SH Nair, or usmashed. Skull barrier being up without a metal blade in hand in neutral is an unfavorable situation against Greninja. It's arguably still unfavorable with a metal blade. You take Skull Barrier in the Greninja MU to make your opponent less willing to throw out shurikens in general and discourage fully charged shurikens.

 

[ChopperDave]

Why use TH against projectile characters? If they have projectiles and you want stage control, just run up with SB active and a MB in hand or use pellets. With TH being the worst move for recovery, I wouldn't want to use it against people who are more likely to hit me when I am off stage.

In my mind, TH = Incredible disruption move and great stage presence = Use against melee characters.
That doesn't go well with SB, a move only for projectile characters.

Skull Barrier is quick enough that you can TH -> SB -> Double Jump and still make it back to stage no problem, so that can be handy if you want to avoid a projectile gimp. Of course, then you have to worry about eating a melee hit at the ledge, and SB's windboxes won't do much to protect you against those.

I guess the only other reasons I could see taking TH + SB is if you really want edgeguarding and juggling power that TH gives you. It might be good in the Samus MU, as Samus is notoriously weak to juggles, and I find her hard to gimp without one or both of these moves (she can stall for days, cover herself with missiles, and recover from anywhere).

But yeah, again, this is all theory. I've run 1321 a lot against my friends and sparring partners and find it works well across a lot of character matchups, but I still haven't gone up against a character where I felt the need to switch out to 1322.

 

[mega4000]

Why use TH against projectile characters? If they have projectiles and you want stage control, just run up with SB active and a MB in hand or use pellets. With TH being the worst move for recovery, I wouldn't want to use it against people who are more likely to hit me when I am off stage.

In my mind, TH = Incredible disruption move and great stage presence = Use against melee characters.
That doesn't go well with SB, a move only for projectile characters.

I prefer to go tornado hold and skull barrier against the characters like lucario who have just two projectiles but can rush the crap out of you.

Does anyone object to 1112? I don't feel it is a waste of a slot.

It's a set I will never ever use because I will always use danger wrap, no matter what. Even in the villager match up I prefer danger wrap + skull barrier.

 

[p1ay6ack]

welps, from reading the discussion among you guys about the custom move sets, i freaking request some megaman go into tourny and test out how viable a custom move set is in high lvl competitive play. and hopefully appear on stream, so we can see the ups/downs of each set. Ninjalink was awesome for showing us his set, but we need more ppl to showcase their set! :\

 

[Kouki]

Is there video of ninjalink customs in action? Or are you just talking about his customs demonstration video?

If there's some competitive customs video of his can you post it please?

 

[Locke 06]

Well with 8 days left, I don't think much will surface in terms of videos.

Best to just go with what we've got in terms of experience.

Is there video of ninjalink customs in action? Or are you just talking about his customs demonstration video?

If there's some competitive customs video of his can you post it please?

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/631416618?t=5h15m17s

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So I've given MM's situation some more thought after seeing that we're not really in the best position to make everyone happy right now and done a bit more looking into his various up specials, and I've come to realize that our fundamental space issue is niche moves vs Leaf Shield/Plant Barrier. Danger Wrap is uncontestedly his general best side special as Metal Blade is for neutral; different options on these are more niche. All three of his up specials are, upon a serious examination, blatantly good moves and extremely different from each other; he clearly needs to have serious set support for all three and it was probably not fair to categorize up-2 as the niche option even if as a player I can't say I would respect it much. That boils the decision making down to space for down variants versus space for more niche side and neutral options with the main one of these being Shadow Blade.

I kinda feel like in the long run one of the two of Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier is going to prove just "the best". The moves are really just too similar for it not to pan out that way. My intuition is that it will be Plant Barrier, but I don't main Mega Man so take that with a grain of salt. If we just standardized on down-1 or down-3 for non-default up-Bs, that would solve all space issues. We would have 7 "basic" sets (1311, 1312, 1313, 1322, 1332, and then 1321+1331 or 1323+1333), 1112, and then two Shadow Blade sets for 10 total sets. If we decide Shadow Blade really does just suck but that we care a lot about supporting PB and LS equally, we could drop SB sets to do that, but I'd be pretty hesitant to do that since Shadow Blade certainly seems like a more meaningful option than the distinction between shields and heck we already have this poll we could use to pick SB sets:

http://smashboards.com/threads/custom-moveset-project-shadow-blade-poll-read-the-op.394220/

So, basically, that makes the decision making boil down to...

Leaf > Plant?
Plant > Leaf?
Both are important and Shadow Blade is not?
Some compromise by which Shadow Blade gets only one set and one of the two up specials gets all three shield variants while the other is missing a set?

 

[ChopperDave]

So I've given MM's situation some more thought after seeing that we're not really in the best position to make everyone happy right now and done a bit more looking into his various up specials, and I've come to realize that our fundamental space issue is niche moves vs Leaf Shield/Plant Barrier. Danger Wrap is uncontestedly his general best side special as Metal Blade is for neutral; different options on these are more niche. All three of his up specials are, upon a serious examination, blatantly good moves and extremely different from each other; he clearly needs to have serious set support for all three and it was probably not fair to categorize up-2 as the niche option even if as a player I can't say I would respect it much. That boils the decision making down to space for down variants versus space for more niche side and neutral options with the main one of these being Shadow Blade.

I kinda feel like in the long run one of the two of Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier is going to prove just "the best". The moves are really just too similar for it not to pan out that way. My intuition is that it will be Plant Barrier, but I don't main Mega Man so take that with a grain of salt. If we just standardized on down-1 or down-3 for non-default up-Bs, that would solve all space issues. We would have 7 "basic" sets (1311, 1312, 1313, 1322, 1332, and then 1321+1331 or 1323+1333), 1112, and then two Shadow Blade sets for 10 total sets. If we decide Shadow Blade really does just suck but that we care a lot about supporting PB and LS equally, we could drop SB sets to do that, but I'd be pretty hesitant to do that since Shadow Blade certainly seems like a more meaningful option than the distinction between shields and heck we already have this poll we could use to pick SB sets:

http://smashboards.com/threads/custom-moveset-project-shadow-blade-poll-read-the-op.394220/

So, basically, that makes the decision making boil down to...

Leaf > Plant?
Plant > Leaf?
Both are important and Shadow Blade is not?
Some compromise by which Shadow Blade gets only one set and one of the two up specials gets all three shield variants while the other is missing a set?

Well, maybe we should go ahead and run a quick Leaf v. Plant poll.

As I've said earlier in this thread, my preference is generally towards Leaf Shield, because I appreciate the quicker startup and extra range on the toss, but I may be in the minority.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Imo an ice slasher set is an absolute must.

Also imo, we should only include a plant barrier set if it fits better than LS in an existing set (3323 comes to mind)... They are too similar to argue for repeated slots with 1 LS and 1 PB.

I think crash bomb is the best mate for the skull barrier set, but I could see doing a repeat for 1112 and 1312. I completely disagree that 1322 is needed above these 2, as I just think rush is better for general matchups than TH.

 

[p1ay6ack]

Imo an ice slasher set is an absolute must.

Also imo, we should only include a plant barrier set if it fits better than LS in an existing set (3323 comes to mind)... They are too similar to argue for repeated slots with 1 LS and 1 PB.

I think crash bomb is the best mate for the skull barrier set, but I could see doing a repeat for 1112 and 1312. I completely disagree that 1322 is needed above these 2, as I just think rush is better for general matchups than TH.

yeh, we should at least include ice slasher set. alot of ppl turn it down because of its low dmg output, but i think this move gives megaman the option to make your opponent go into hitstun on impact. danger wrap can't go horizontal, but ice slasher can + knockback.

 

[DanGR]

On the plant barrier vs leaf shield discussion.

Mega Man's other options in neutral are vastly superior. Using it as a mixup in neutral is silly to me.

Airdodging with the hitbox in a disadvantaged position is overrated because your options are limited to only airdodging and jumping as soon as you pull it out. Still, if you plan on using it for this reason, I think the higher startup on Plant barrier isn't a big deal because you'd only use it or leaf shield if you have a lot of time to pull it out in the first place. The lower duration of Plant barrier is also a plus here in case you're knocked off-stage.

Offensively, plant barrier is more reliable in trap situations and in edge-guarding in major part because of the oscillation. The high damage and low duration increase its risk:reward as well.

My vote is for Plant barrier>Leaf shield in nearly every set where we don't use skull barrier.

 

[ScAtt77]

welps, from reading the discussion among you guys about the custom move sets, i freaking request some megaman go into tourny and test out how viable a custom move set is in high lvl competitive play. and hopefully appear on stream, so we can see the ups/downs of each set. Ninjalink was awesome for showing us his set, but we need more ppl to showcase their set! :\

Not sure if you would consider this high level play but here are a few tourney matches of me running 1323. The most notable player that I used this against was Fatality (probably the best Falcon in the US imo).

Vs. Neos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9VysG7n9A (MM match starts at 11:25)

Vs. Fatality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qZEZ0KdkZk (Winner's Finals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOjBm8ImDzM (Grand Finals)