Cross-Version Characters

[Theftz22]

I am interested in making as many characters in melee as viable as possible. However, I wish to limit myself to the attributes of the characters in existing versions of melee (1.0,1.1,1.2,Pal, JPN), so that the ISO could be tournament legal and not a melee mod like SDR. It is obvious how we could take, for example, an NTSC 1.0 Bowser and put that in a PAL ISO, simply by copying the PlKp file from a 1.0 ISO and inserting it in a PAL ISO. However, has anyone worked on taking specific attributes from each version and combining them into an "optimal" character? For example, I would like to create a optimal captain falcon. So, I would like to take the PAL gentleman and add it to the NTSC falcon to keep the best version of the weak knee. Could this be done simply by comparing the files and isolating the differences? Is anyone interested in helping to make "optimal" legal character files?

To-Do List (Using 1.01 as base ISO)

-Bowser (Completed by Geuse: http://smashboards.com/threads/cross-version-characters.344977/#post-16222978)
-Weight to 118
-Downthrow independent of enemy weight

-Falcon (Completed by Geuse: http://smashboards.com/threads/cross-version-characters.344977/#post-16222978)
-Rapid jab activated after only 4 A-button inputs

-DK (Completed by Vietgeek: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-dol-mod-topic.326347/#post-14772499)
-Do not lose giant punch charge if hit during up-B

-Kirby (Completed by Geuse: http://smashboards.com/threads/cross-version-characters.344977/#post-16222978)
-Weight to 74
-Run Speed to 1.5
-Dash attack to 9% damage
-Fair to 18 frames ending lag

-Yoshi (Completed by Geuse: http://smashboards.com/threads/cross-version-characters.344977/#post-16230894)
-Weight to 111
-Fsmash to 17% damage
-Usmash to 15% damage

 

[shuall]

I don't understand how this is different from SDR.

But, master hand is an alright (not great, but alright) program for getting character attributes from the files, and the download includes char files from different versions. You'd have to get familiar with finding the offsets and formats of different char attributes and using a hex editor to copy them from one file to another.

 

[Theftz22]

SDR seeks to balance melee characters by any means possible, new moves, animations, stats, it's all on the table. In this endeavor, I limit myself to the differences in the characters between the legal versions of melee (1.0,1.1,1.2, PAL, JPN), to take only attributes that are already used in legal vanilla SSBM tourneys.

 

[shuall]

Okay, I understand now. IE6 also put out a program called melee toolkit. And I've tried to document most of the node formats found in character dat files using info from this post. My guess is that you want to just change hitbox data and some weights. There are some glitches that are specific to different versions, like bowser's flame cancel, which I'm not sure how you would swap those. You probably want to talk to the SDR guys, though.

 

[Theftz22]

Apparently things like flame cancel are contained in the DOL file.

God I wish you could still edit the post title. Really annoyed by that typo.

Edit: Found thread tools.

 

[Geuse]

Falcon: 4-Input Rapid Jabs (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlCa.dat ──── 0x00380C ─────── 00000004 -> 00000007




Bowser: Weight 117 (NTSC) ─> 118 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlKp.dat ──── 0x0036CC ─────── 42EA0000 -> 42EC0000


Bowser: Down Throw Independent of Enemy Weight (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlKp.dat ──── 0x0037C4 ─────── 04000000 -> 0C000000




Kirby: Weight 70 (NTSC) ─> 74 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlKb.dat ──── 0x004D70 ─────── 428C0000 -> 42940000


Kirby: Run Terminal Velocity 1.4 (NTSC) ─> 1.5 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlKb.dat ──── 0x004D10 ─────── 3FB33333 -> 3FC00000


Kirby: Dash Attack Early Hit Damage 8 (NTSC) ─> 9 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlKb.dat ──── 0x0083AC ─────── 2C000008 -> 2C000009


Kirby: Dash Attack Knockback Growth 66 (NTSC) ─> 50 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlKb.dat ──── 0x0083B8 ─────── 34908011 -> 348C8011
PlKb.dat ──── 0x008400 ─────── 34908011 -> 348C8011


Kirby: F-Air and D-Air Landing Lag 20 (NTSC) ─> 18 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlKb.dat ──── 0x004DD4 ─────── 41A00000 -> 41900000
PlKb.dat ──── 0x004DE0 ─────── 41A00000 -> 41900000




These next two are kind of outside what you're trying to do, but I want to put them somewhere... so...

Fox: Remove Shine's Intangible Frame (Project M)
[Geuse]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlFx.dat ──── 0x003C70 ─────── 68000002 -> 68000000


Falco: Remove Shine's Intangible Frame (Project M)
[Geuse]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlFc.dat ──── 0x003D2C ─────── 68000002 -> 68000000

P.S. I'm interested.

 

[Theftz22]

...Wow. Super amazing work xD. Only Yoshi left then. Are these hex locations for 1.1?

Edit: The knockback growth on kirby's dash attack being lowered to 50 is actually a nerf, right?

 

[Geuse]

Umm, i'm not sure if the hex locations are different, but I was using 1.02. If you need to though, it'd be really simple to find them in 1.01.

For the knockback growth, I'm not really sure if it's a nerf or not. I mean, no one's getting KO's with dash attack anyway. Maybe reduced growth makes it easier to combo? Either way, I figured I'd just list it in case anyone else down the line ever wanted it.

 

[Ripple]

you think combining best attributes of characters from 1.0 to PAL will make a balanced cast? or even a slight difference in balance? SDR isn't even balanced and I made bad characters decent.

 

[Geuse]

Personally, no. I mean, even if someone could create the ever-elusive perfecter ssbm, no one would play it. But I am a "not all changes are important, but all changes matter" kinda guy, so I couldn't resist appeasing my theory side. Also, documenting this stuff is a fun way to teach myself about the game.

Side question: How hard is it for John Q Public to play SDR on a wii compared to Project M? What about Dolphin?
Side promise: I'll actually play SDR sometime. It seems really cool. <3



oh yeah. here's yoshi.

Yoshi: Weight 108 (NTSC) -> 111 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlYs.dat ──── 0x0033E4 ─────── 42D80000 -> 42DE0000


Yoshi: F-Smash Damage 16 (NTSC) -> 17 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlYs.dat ──── 0x004528 ─────── 2C013010 -> 2C013011
PlYs.dat ──── 0x00453C ─────── 2C813010 -> 2C813011
PlYs.dat ──── 0x004550 ─────── 2D002010 -> 2D002011


Yoshi: F-Smash Knockback Growth 94 (NTSC) -> 98 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlYs.dat ──── 0x004534 ─────── B4978013 -> B4988013
PlYs.dat ──── 0x004548 ─────── B4978013 -> B4988013
PlYs.dat ──── 0x00455C ─────── B4978013 -> B4988013


Yoshi: Up-Smash Damage 14 (NTSC) -> 15 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlYs.dat ──── 0x0045F8 ─────── 2C01300E -> 2C01300F
PlYs.dat ──── 0x00460C ─────── 2C81280E -> 2C81280F


Yoshi: Up-Smash Knockback 26 (NTSC) -> 30 (PAL)
[HAL Labs]
Filename ──── .dat Offset ──── Hex to Replace ─────
PlYs.dat ──── 0x004608 ─────── 0D00010B -> 0F00010B
PlYs.dat ──── 0x00461C ─────── 0D00010B -> 0F00010B

 

[Ripple]

Side question: How hard is it for John Q Public to play SDR on a wii compared to Project M? What about Dolphin?

near impossible running it through homebrew.

through dolphin. super easy because I could just give people an iso

 

[Geuse]

That's dissapointing.
Now. Let me get at dat iso.

@ T Theftz22 : Is "samus doesn't loose charge shot when hit out of up-b" in 1.01? PAL lets you keeps it, but 1.00 doesn't. It's in the DOL mod topic if you don't already have it.

 

[Ripple]

she still loses it in PAL. it's just something we figured out

 

[Geuse]

Ah, you're right. Only lazily tested it.

 

[Theftz22]

you think combining best attributes of characters from 1.0 to PAL will make a balanced cast? or even a slight difference in balance? SDR isn't even balanced and I made bad characters decent.

Balanced cast? No. But more balanced than without the changes, however small, that's indisputable. And the changes can't reasonably be said to be negligible either. There are certain situations in which NTSC kirby could, for example, die from a fox usmash where PAL kirby would have lived. That's big. And how many missed gentlemens have cost NTSC falcons.

As to the Knockback growth, it seems to me dash attack has far too much lag to combo off of. Rather, the knockback growth being higher is only important so that the opponent is hit far enough away so that kirby can recover before being hit, plus the move will break crouch cancel earlier. So I prefer NTSC knockback growth.

I've looked at Bowser and Falcon so far and the 1.1 hex locations have been the same. I guess this is because Bowser and Falcon are the same from 1.1 to 1.2 (with exception of flame cancel, which is in the DOL file).

Thanks for Yoshi!

 

[Theftz22]

@ Geuse I think there is an error with your Yoshi modifications. You wrote that weight is located at offset 0x0033E4, and your hex values there were accurate. But in your F-Smash Damage to 17 code, you put that the second offset to be changed is also 0x0033E4. Is this a typo?

 

[Geuse]

Yeah, typo. I was pretty drunk-tired when I copy-pasting that. Changed it in the other post. Each address is 14 (hex) away from the last.