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I don't think Luma's respawn timer should be increased though, it's been nerfed twice already.
And the changes I suggested would first and foremost address the problem of her being the best character in the game, while still keeping her combo game intact, for the most part. There's more to Bayonetta then Witch Twist, Witch Twist, Witch Twist, I'm sure. If Mario can be a combo heavy character that struggles to kill without having an instant death combo, then so can Bayonetta.
I recognize some of these as my own suggestions.I don't think the Doc has any changes suggested, so...
I kind of stole most of these from the Unofficial Balance Committee... but they have some very nice ideas for how to make Doc a little better. I changed a few things and added some things of my own to give him a larger buff...
- Dashing speed: 1.312 -> 1.5
- Megavitamins IASA on frame 40
- Super Sheet does more damage: 7.84% -> 12%
- Super Jump Punch has increased distance
- Dr. Tornado deals more damage: 8% -> 18%
- Dr. Tornado travels higher and takes less button presses to gain height
- Neutral attack deals more damage: 8.96% -> 13%
- Down aerial autocancels in a short hop, and has less landing lag: 21 -> 16
- Back throw has increased knockback: 70 base/60 growth -> 82 base/72 growth
- Megavitamins deal more damage: 5.6% -> 7%
- Neutral aerial does more damage: 5.6% clean/8.96% late -> 7% clean/10% late
- Pummel does more damage: 3.64% -> 4%
- Back aerial does more damage: 13.44% clean/7.84% late -> 15% clean/8.5% late
Go on then, name anything else notable about Bayonetta's combo game other than Witch Twist, or her ABK's.
Heel Slide, down tilt, up tilt, sometimes forward tilt.
Overreact much? The moves would still be functional, just not as dominating in their usage. She's not like Luigi, who only had way of setting up all of his fancy ****, Bayonetta is gifted with several combo options, and again I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to completely take these moves out of the game, which is what you seem to believe I want to do.
Which is exactly what I'm proposing.
And watch how Bayonetta remains ever so comfortably in her solid #1 placement.
I'd say that after 1.15 fixed the problem of his smash attacks being garbage, Falco is decent now. He still needs help, yes, but I wouldn't call him trash.
Maybe, just... Falco has the potential to be such a great, solid footsies/fundamentals character, but that potential, at least in MY opinion, is ruined by his all around poor frame data. The closest things we have to that sort of character right now, on a high level, are Ryu, maybe greninja, and idk, that's it really? But Ryu is such a punish based character, and Greninja, such a technical, combo based character, both so centered around the advantaged state, that I feel the game is really lacking that one, solid, neutral centered character with good footsies. Falcos design to me reflects that, but it falls flat on the execution, making him incapable of fully embracing what imo he was meant to to do. That's what I meant by trash.
Falco's frame data isn't necessarily bad, depending on how you look at it. Most of his moves start up pretty fast, but they take a while to end. I agree that Falco has the makings of a good character, though. You can definitely see what he could've been.
PREPARE YOURSELF FOR A WALL OF TEXT
Bayonetta is hype to watch? Maybe the stairway to heaven combos were interesting to watch at first, but they became stale VERY quickly. You see, people want to change Bayonetta so that she doesn't overpower the rest of the cast. That's called balancing. Smash may be a spectator sport, but a game where one or two characters dominate the metagame isn't going to attract any positive attention. That's exactly why Brawl died as it did.Why do people have a problem with bayonetta being the best, or even a top teir character? Sure, she deserves some nerfs, but nerfing her combos would ruin her, making her a mid teir at best. That is what makes her good.
Also, you have to take into consideration that smash is a spectator sport, and bayo is hype to watch. A tournament that's all campy clouds, rosalumas, and sheiks that now Litterally take FOREVER to kill, will NOT draw crowds. Nerfing her combos will just make ANOTHER character that can rack up damage but takes forever to kill. You know why melee is more popular as an esport? Ppl die at 50. In 4, it's not at all uncommon to see ppl live to 3x that percent. Bayonetta is one of the few characters that doesn't have that problem, so why ruin that?
INSTEAD, how about we give her a large weight nerf, increase to fall speed, and move batwithin to frame 2 so that she dies significantly earlier? That way, not only do we have a character that kills early (hype), we also have a character that gets killed early (hype). This would do a lot to even out her risk reward, making her more of a glass cannon, would make her MORE hype, and allow her to stay a top 3 character that ppl will get to watch in tournament. Everybody wins
*cough cough*
- Give forward air the same treatment as Fox's jab: only allow it to continue the attack combo otherwise characters will be able to escape. All of Bayonetta's zero-to-deaths have the first hit of her fair to get close enough to her opponent for the downward ABK. This effectively neuters her insta-death capabilities while also not effecting her more common combos
Okay well if you want there to continue being large tournaments, the tournaments need to make money, and if you want tournaments to make money, spectators have to enjoy watching the game lmao d:
Do you mean to make it so that her combos still work AND kill, but so that she has a harder time racking up damage and and a harder time killing outside of combos overall, that way people have less options to worry about at any given time? That might be interesting! I still think she needs to die earlier to make it so that people are less encouraged to play defensively, but I think this would be an appropriate nerf that wouldn't mess with her character design or top teir status
finally....finally somebody who understands competitive gaming. thank you!Why do people have a problem with bayonetta being the best, or even a top teir character? Sure, she deserves some nerfs, but nerfing her combos would ruin her, making her a mid teir at best. That is what makes her good.
Also, you have to take into consideration that smash is a spectator sport, and bayo is hype to watch. A tournament that's all campy clouds, rosalumas, and sheiks that now Litterally take FOREVER to kill, will NOT draw crowds. Nerfing her combos will just make ANOTHER character that can rack up damage but takes forever to kill. You know why melee is more popular as an esport? Ppl die at 50. In 4, it's not at all uncommon to see ppl live to 3x that percent. Bayonetta is one of the few characters that doesn't have that problem, so why ruin that?
INSTEAD, how about we give her a large weight nerf, increase to fall speed, and move batwithin to frame 2 so that she dies significantly earlier? That way, not only do we have a character that kills early (hype), we also have a character that gets killed early (hype). This would do a lot to even out her risk reward, making her more of a glass cannon, would make her MORE hype, and allow her to stay a top 3 character that ppl will get to watch in tournament. Everybody wins
Lol nahhhhhhhh
So people from EVO 2015 and other tournaments are still playing to this day? Man... I envy their stamina.
I would say increase Rosalina's air speed, but people would heavily complain about that. Launch Star can't deal any damage, so without better air mobility, Rosalina would likely struggle to make safe landings against a large amount of the roster, and it's not like you can always d-air your way out of the problem either.
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Honestly, the Flare Blade buff would be pretty miniscule. 9.7u isn't much bigger than 8.7u.
Are you sure making a frame 13 move with minimal ending lag and full body invincibility kill at 100% is a good idea?
If we went by these changes, the move would be active twice in a shorthop. Considering the move kills around 100% and Puff has great aerial mobility...
https://mobile.twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/728806707502026753
I can't guarantee this, but wouldn't this give it the ability to true combo into Rest at mid percents? That sounds kinda broken.
This "reliable KO move" would kill almost 20% sooner than Mewtwo’s up throw. You think you could tone this buff down a little? -_-
Would it put opponents to sleep long enough to where you got a free kill at 45% off a frame 15 move? That sounds rather unbalanced.
That doesn't sound too bad to me.
What exactly am I looking at here?
I think it would at low percents, but I'm not so sure at mid. At any rate, it would most likely only work on heavier characters, at which point it wouldn't KO anyway.
You're right. It should be stronger.
You say frame 15 as if that's fast. And what of Jigglypuff's KOs at 45%?
For comparison, how would you like it if Yoshi's fair came out almost twice as fast, killed at 100% no matter what part of the move you landed, and could be used twice in a shorthop? Almost the exact same thing, except Puff has better aerial decelleration and acceleration, so it would also be close to Sheik's fair levels of safe.
A mod of Smash 4 that changes up aerial to have a FAF of 35. In other words, your change would give her easy up air -> Rest strings that could kill ridiculously early.
Testing it myself, it is indeed possible to combo into Rest with it a percents where it can kill, even without the reduced ending lag.
If you're looking at just raw moves, fully charged fsmash has the potential to kill off the side at that percent, especially if said opponent is rather light. If you look at this from a more broad perspective, you could also do you easy bake down throw/up tilt -> up air -> Rest combos.
E Eugene Wang
Furret24
Now I don't know much about Charizard so not sure if this is what is needed or if this would have an ill affect but this is more or less what balance should look like. Nerfing one area to compensate for a buff in another. @Jmacz
So you're Masahiro Sakurai all of a sudden? Why don't you go balance a game since you know so much?E Eugene Wang
Guys I wanted to be the one to tell him that his ideas are bad, his posts have no backing and should not be taken seriously, and he like a lot of people on this board have no clue how to actually balance characters.
Now I don't know much about Charizard so not sure if this is what is needed or if this would have an ill affect but this is more or less what balance should look like. Nerfing one area to compensate for a buff in another. @Jmacz
Honestly, I wouldn't see a difference.
Your making me salivate.
Exactly how are you testing these?
Jigglypuff doesn't die from a fully charged forward smash until past 50%, unless you push them towards the ledge, which isn't exactly a quick way of traveling.If you're looking at just raw moves, fully charged fsmash has the potential to kill off the side at that percent, especially if said opponent is rather light. If you look at this from a more broad perspective, you could also do you easy bake down throw/up tilt -> up air -> Rest combos.
I'm guessing you aren't aware of the budding Smash 4 modding scene.
As i've stated before, i've been modding Smash 4 for the past month now. It's entirely possible for me to test all the changes myself. Surely you remember when I showed you that video of that mod where all of Mario's moves spiked. I mean, the mod was dedicated to you. ;P
It may not be fast, but you've still not told me how much longer Sing puts opponents to sleep. For all I know, you could mean that opponents will stay asleep long enough to where you can push them across the entire stage and still hit them with a fully charged foward smash without them waking up at 45%. You also didn't say anything to disprove the easy bake Rest combos that you could easily kill with at that percent.
There's no such thing as true balance, so please don't get too heated over each others suggestions.
Of course I remember, that's not really something you can forget. Even so, I didn't realize that Smash 4 modding had actually made progress, not this far, anyway.
Long enough to where you don't have wait till high percents to land it without getting punished.
I mean, what else is there to say?You also didn't say anything to disprove the easy bake Rest combos that you could easily kill with at that percent.
