Create 1.16!

[champ21bell]

Luigi needs an Uthrow that kills.
Maybe +2 damage and 90 kbg

 

[Aaron1997]

Witch Twist

• Grounded Start-up 4 -> 8F
• Aerial Start-up 4 -> 8F
• Aerial 2nd Hit BKB 30 -> 50
• Aerial 2nd Hit KBG 30 -> 105

Heel Slide

• Button Held total duration 77 -> 80F

After burner Kick

• Dive kick speed Decreased

Jab

• Hitbox 1 BKB 10 -> 20
• Hitbox 2 BKB 24 -> 14
• Finisher Hitbox Active 9-11 -> 4-6F

N-air

• Early hit damage 6 -> 10
• 2nd hit damage 5 -> 7
• late hit damage 3 -> 6
• Landing lag 18 -> 14F

F-air

• Landing lag 27 -> 20F

B-air

• Landing lag 24 -> 20F

Up-air

• Duration 45 -> 35F

D-air

• Duration 60 -> 50

Limit Cross Slash

• KBG 153 -> 145

D-Throw

• Angle 80 -> 90
• BKB 70 -> 90
• KBG 30 -> 20

Up-throw

• Damage 6 -> 9

N-air

• landing lag 17 -> 14F

F-air

• landing lag 15 -> 13

B-air

• landing lag 24 -> 18
• KBG 90 -> 94

Run Speed

• 1.472 -> 1.52

Blaster

• Ground FAF 59 -> 49
• Aerial FAF 50 -> 40

Up-throw

• KGB 110 -> 135

N-air

• Landing lag 15 -> 8
• Early hit BKB 30 -> 50

F-air

• Landing lag 15 -> 10
• Early hit BKB 30 -> 60

B-air

• KBG 120 -> 124
• Landing lag 18 -> 15

D-air

• Landing lag 30 -> 18

Rest

• KBG 66 -> 72

D-throw

• Angle 80 -> 70
• BKB 82 -> 60

Run Speed

• 1.57 -> 1.67

Up-air

• Hit 1 Wind box BKB 120/70 -> 80/30

Standing grab/dash grab/pivot grab

• Hitbox 1 Size to match the entire Beam
• Hitbox 2 and 3 Removed
• Hitbox Active Duration 12-14 -> 12-39
• F-throw Damage 6 -> 9
• B-throw KBG 61 -> 66
• U-throw Damage 5 -> 6

F-air

• Landing lag 15 -> 10
• Damage 5 -> 6

B-air

• Landing lag 22 -> 18
• KBG 100 -> 102

D-air

• Landing lag 20 -> 16

B-air

• Start-up 18 -> 15

U-air

• Start-up 14 -> 12
• Landing lag 15 ->13
• Duration 60 -> 50

New Hitbox

• FAF 26-50
• Damage 5%
• Angle 70 degrees
• BKB 30
• KBG 100

D-air

• Start-up 14 -> 12
• Landing lag 23 -> 18
• Duraton 61 -> 50

New Hitbox

• FAF 25-50
• Damage 6%
• Angle 70 Degrees
• BKB 30
• KBG 100

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Just going to go through every character with buffs/nerfs. Some chars might not have frame data listed, but the description should be good enough to understand. Also, top tiers may be buffed because I don't want to leave their mains with only nerfs.



General Game Changes:Rage Nerfed


Weight Changed: 84-80
2nd Witch Twist puts into Free Fall
Increase Dtilt Startup
Increase startup on Dive Kick
Increase Fair Startup
Increase Up-Smash and Knock Back


Revert Up throw to pre nerf state
Decrease Ending Lag on Down Smash
Decrease U-tilt ending lag.
Decrease Jab Ending Lag
Decrease Landing lag on all aerials
Increase weight cause why not.


Decrease Clown Car Endlag
Decrease F-smash endlag
Decrease Canon Endlag
Decrease Aerial Endlag
Make Down Throw a Combo Throw
Make Up throw a kill throw


Make Up special go slightly higher(this is just a hope)


Decrease percent lost by Flare Blitz
Less Landing lag on more of his aerials
Make Recovery go more vertically
Decrease end lag on smashes


Up-air hitbox 45-40
Cross Slash have less Knock back
Make Climhazard go slightly higher
Make air speed like .1 faster

Revert speed back to pre patch
Make Tipper F-smash slightly have more knock back

Make gordos only reflected by Smash Attacks
Decrease ending lag on all aerials
Make Side-Smash have a 1 frame shorter startup
Make Down throw a combo throw
Make Back or Foward Throw a kill throw
Make Faster
/
Down-B has less ending lag

Add landing lag on some aerials(Don't know how to change this char, but like if nothing is changed he would be shining because of Bayo nerfs)

Up-B has less landing lag/end lag

Make recovery better
Make him slightly faster
Make Neutral B faster(Don't know what else to do)

Give kill throw
Increase Knock back on all smashes
Make Smashes have less ending lag
Make Aerials have less landing lag
Make Frisbee stronger
Make is so you can't hit the can back

Make Lasers have WAY less endlag
Give Dair less startup
Give Fair less startup

No changes

Less Landing lag
Less ending lag
Make Utilt come out one frame faster :D

Make Fair have less startup

No changes

Make Foward throw a kill throw at ledge
Make Uptilt rest combo at like 90ish%(Could probably be higher up)
Make Sing be continous and be able to cancel out of it
Make Rollout stop once you are off the stage
Make Pound have slightly less end lag
Make Downthrow a better combo throw

Make smash have less landing lag
Make Smashes have more knock back
Make Down B have less startup

Make smashes have less end lag
Make his recovery better in some fashion

(Don't know what to do to Link)

Make the landing lag of Up B not terrible
Make it so that if you hit the lip it won't put you in free fall

(Don't know what to do)

Make Jab go into aerials unlike Marth
Make Up-B stronger
Make shield breaker have less startup
Make Side-B like Melee while in the air.

Make up throw into up air a 50/50

No Changes

No Changes

Reduce start up on leaf Shield
Make Pellets to .5% more

Fair has less landing lag

No Changes
/
Make them playable online
GIVE THEM ALL THEIR MOVES



I will do the rest later on

 

[Deleted member]

a good amount of the changes in this thread are pretty bad and prove how most people in the community can't balance this game reliably at all.

just sayin'

 

[Bowserboy3]

Make Jab go into aerials unlike Marth
Make Up-B stronger
Make shield breaker have less startup
Make Side-B like Melee while in the air.


No Changes

Why on god's earth would you give Lucina game buffs but not Marth? xD

Besides, for one, Jab does go into aerials, for both characters. Shield Breaker having less start up wouldn't change much. A couple more points of Shield Damage would do tons more for the move. I've always said Dolphin Slash's sweetspot should have 1% more damage, which brings it in line with Crescent Slash. The Side B in the air buff would be nice, but again, it isn't what Marth needs.

What Marth could really benefit from are the following:

• Less BKB but more KBG on Forward and Down Throws - something to make them reliable up to at least around 40% or so, but give no kill follow ups would work wonders for him.
• Fair having the same AC frames as Bair (from >36 to >32), with 2 frames less landing lag (16 to 14 frames) - Marth doesn't need Double Fair, but Fair's overall data is rather poor. This would improve it to give it use in neutral.
• Uair and Nair having 1 frame less landing lag - (from 14 to 13, and 12 to 11) these would be beneficial, and help with spacing and combos.
• Uair gets a similar tipper range/separation buff that all his other aerials got in 1.1.4 - I don't necessarily mean more range, but just reduce the overlap of the tipper and sourspot, making getting the tip of Uair a tiny bit easier.
• A few hitbox revisions - initial frame of Utilt is bigger to prevent blind spots on small characters, and the same for jab 1, and the initial sweetspot of Dolphin Slash.
• Utilt getting 1% more damage on all hitboxes (with compensated knockback) - This move is overall weak. More damage would make landing it more rewarding.

There are multiple other things I would LIKE to see, such as the Dolphin Slash damage suggested above, more Shield Breaker shield damage, more range on Fsmash, Dtilt as quick as Brawl etc, but they are literally wishes. Yes, they would help, but the bullet points I suggested are things Marth literally needs.

(naturally, Lucina would also get these changes, or at least the same with a revised one for Up Tilt, her damage values are odd).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

a good amount of the changes in this thread are pretty bad and prove how most people in the community can't balance this game reliably at all.

just sayin'

Like you could do better (But if it was talking about me I just did some changes I thought might help. If I could test these I would)

Why on god's earth would you give Lucina game buffs but not Marth? xD

Besides, for one, Jab does go into aerials, for both characters. Shield Breaker having less start up wouldn't change much. A couple more points of Shield Damage would do tons more for the move. I've always said Dolphin Slash's sweetspot should have 1% more damage, which brings it in line with Crescent Slash. The Side B in the air buff would be nice, but again, it isn't what Marth needs.

What Marth could really benefit from are the following:

• Less BKB but more KBG on Forward and Down Throws - something to make them reliable up to at least around 40% or so, but give no kill follow ups would work wonders for him.
• Fair having the same AC frames as Bair (from >36 to >32), with 2 frames less landing lag (16 to 14 frames) - Marth doesn't need Double Fair, but Fair's overall data is rather poor. This would improve it to give it use in neutral.
• Uair and Nair having 1 frame less landing lag - (from 14 to 13, and 12 to 11) these would be beneficial, and help with spacing and combos.
• Uair gets a similar tipper range/separation buff that all his other aerials got in 1.1.4 - I don't necessarily mean more range, but just reduce the overlap of the tipper and sourspot, making getting the tip of Uair a tiny bit easier.
• A few hitbox revisions - initial frame of Utilt is bigger to prevent blind spots on small characters, and the same for jab 1, and the initial sweetspot of Dolphin Slash.
• Utilt getting 1% more damage on all hitboxes (with compensated knockback) - This move is overall weak. More damage would make landing it more rewarding.

There are multiple other things I would LIKE to see, such as the Dolphin Slash damage suggested above, more Shield Breaker shield damage, more range on Fsmash, Dtilt as quick as Brawl etc, but they are literally wishes. Yes, they would help, but the bullet points I suggested are things Marth literally needs.

(naturally, Lucina would also get these changes, or at least the same with a revised one for Up Tilt, her damage values are odd).

I did not know what to do. BB Senpai forgive me

 

[Bowserboy3]

Like you could do better (But if it was talking about me I just did some changes I thought might help. If I could test these I would)

I did not know what to do. BB Senpai forgive me

Also, I forgot to mention...

MARTH NEEDS TO USE HIS COUNTER QUOTES! BIGGEST AND MOST IMPORTANT BUFF HE NEEDS!

 

[MockRock]

Puff: Overall frame data increase, Rest knockback increase, reworked KB and KBG on soft hit of fair so that it combos into Rest at a large range of percents.

Falco: ground speed dramatically increased, less landing lag on dair.

I could sit and write a long list, but these are the changes I REALLY want to see. Hell, if a new patch was released that just made Falco run faster I'd be okay.

 

[Jeronado]

This was kinda fun. Reminds me of OU's Theorymon thread, although I never post there lol. Well here's my attempt at a 'wishlist' that doesn't break the game, hopefully I succeed.


Fair:

• Landing Lag reduced from 16F -> 12F
• Multi Hit damage: 1.5/2.2 -> 2.5/3.2
• Final Hit damage: 3 -> 4

12F is in line with a few good aerials for landing lag. Alongside the damage increase (If I calc'd properly) this should make MK's Fair about -8/-9 on block in an ideal scenario. About as safe as Mario's late Bair. Means it should be safer to use in neutral hopefully. Still debating on whether or not I'd change the autocancel window so fair autocancels out of a short hop.


Jab:

• Jab 2 transitions into Rapid Jab faster

Blaster:

• Grounded Blaster duration decreased: 59F -> 40F
• Aerial Blaster duration decreased: 50F -> 38F

Attributes:

• Run speed increased: 1.472 -> 1.5

Don't know the actual frame data for the jab transition, but currently characters with fast aerials can mash out in between jab 2 and the rapid jab which is obnoxious. Blaster FAF was changed to match Fox's, I think this should makes it usable at mid range without it being dumb. On hit (on 100 unit weight characters) with these changes grounded Blaster is looking about -6 on hit -12 on block at mid range (give or take a few frames depending on how close you are), which should be safe. Don't want anything like Brawl/Melee lasers. Run speed was buffed to match Melee Falco/Luigi/a couple characters. I debated on increasing air accel, but I'm not sure what kind of effects that'd have or what I'd move it to. Air accel buff would probably improve Falco's combo game, not that it isn't already good.


Ftilt:

• Hitboxes match Melee Samus' Ftilt

Dtilt:

• Duration decreased: 40F -> 24F

Fsmash:

• Duration decreased: 49F -> 39F

Dsmash:

• Front hit KBG increased: 46 -> 63
  
• Back hit KBG increased: 48 -> 65

Homing Missile:

• Duration decreased: 57F -> 43F

Super Missile:

• Duration decreased: 59F -> 45F

Ftilt has weird hitboxes. I don't know why they were changed cause Melee Samus' Ftilt hitbox isn't really that crazy. Dtilt is changed cause currently she spends a long time with her arm stuck out like a moron with no hitbox (Pull your arm back, girl! What are you doing?!). The change I gave to it matches Marth's Dtilt's FAF. If I recall Dtilt doesn't true combo into anything either, it should probably be able to now. Fsmash was changed for similar reasons, it has 28F of cooldown now, same as Mario's Usmash. Didn't want to make the cooldown too low, like MK, ZSS, Ganondorf levels, cause Samus' Fsmash comes out way faster and has more range. I considered changing Utilt's duration too, but it's the same as Falcon's and it doesn't seem that far out of line as far as Utilt FAFs go. Dsmash KBG was increased so it should kill around the same time Yoshi's does. Missile FAF changed to match Mega Man's projectiles.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ftilt:

• Hitboxes match Melee Samus' Ftilt

Dtilt:

• Duration decreased: 40F -> 24F

Fsmash:

• Duration decreased: 49F -> 39F

Dsmash:

• Front hit KBG increased: 46 -> 63
  
• Back hit KBG increased: 48 -> 65

Homing Missile:

• Duration decreased: 57F -> 43F

Super Missile:

• Duration decreased: 59F -> 45F

Ftilt has weird hitboxes. I don't know why they were changed cause Melee Samus' Ftilt hitbox isn't really that crazy. Dtilt is changed cause currently she spends a long time with her arm stuck out like a moron with no hitbox (Pull your arm back, girl! What are you doing?!). The change I gave to it matches Marth's Dtilt's FAF. If I recall Dtilt doesn't true combo into anything either, it should probably be able to now. Fsmash was changed for similar reasons, it has 28F of cooldown now, same as Mario's Usmash. Didn't want to make the cooldown too low, like MK, ZSS, Ganondorf levels, cause Samus' Fsmash comes out way faster and has more range. I considered changing Utilt's duration too, but it's the same as Falcon's and it doesn't seem that far out of line as far as Utilt FAFs go. Dsmash KBG was increased so it should kill around the same time Yoshi's does. Missile FAF changed to match Mega Man's projectiles.

Some of these are nice buffs, but I want to mention Ftilt. To be honest, the Ftilt hitbox changes would be just pointless. The move functions fine after 1.1.5. The reason the move was bad was because it was weak on hit, and the sourspot caused next to no damage/hitstun making it unsafe for Samus on hit. With the damage and knockback buffed in 1.1.5, the move functions a lot better now. The hitboxes of the move look bad on paper, but they work fine. They don't break the move or do anything harmful to it at all. This would be more of a QoL change that does little in reality.

Also, I don't think the world is ready for a Dtilt with as much range and interruptabiliy as Marth's Dtilt, with more damage. If you ask me, Samus's Dtilt needs a little bit more KBG, to allow it to KO that bit sooner. In increase of around 10 KBG points would so good. That, or give it an increase in damage of around 1-2%, which in turn will allow it to KO sooner. If anything, it needs this more than a duration decrease. A duration decrease of around 3 frames would be nice while keeping it balanced. Do you realise how obnoxious her Dtilt would be if it had 24 frames of duration, how absurdly hard it would be to punish on shield. Think of Diddy's Dtilt, but remember Samus's Dtilt has higher hitlag, and does a lot more damage... imagine Samus spamming Dtilt on your shield like Diddy can, only with more damage and hitstun...

Another thing; if anything, Super Missiles need more knockback too more than anything, as while powerful, they don't do enough in reality. Changing the launch angle from 60° to 45° would be a good start, while increasing the KBG slightly. Perhaps a decrease in duration of around 3 frames would also be nice (remember she can only have 1 Super Missile on screen at a time).

Homing Missiles with 43 duration would also be a bit powerful. I do think they need a decrease in duration, but think like this; 43 would be Luigi's Fireballs with homing capability. I think having a 5 - 6 frame duration decrease would make homing missiles a bit better, while keeping them balanced.

What you said about Dsmash and Fsmash work in my book. Dsmash needs something to make it KO a bit earlier. You could even have a KBG increase lower than you suggested (such as around 52-54), and have the move deal 1% more damage too. It is also pitifully weak on damage. Fsmash's duration decrease would be cool. Either that, or leave the duration as it is, and make the sourspot deal a tiny bit more BKB to make it hit a little bit harder.

Currently, Samus can do a lot of stuff now, and these changes would make her a 100% totally solid character (not that she is bad now, because after 1.1.5, she is pretty decent as opposed to below average).

 

[Jeronado]

Hey, thanks for the feedback. Nice to get a second opinion I'll probably be editing my post later today or tomorrow based on what you've said. Mostly cause I think I might share it with some friends just to show them what my ideal 1.1.6 changes would be.

Some of these are nice buffs, but I want to mention Ftilt. To be honest, the Ftilt hitbox changes would be just pointless. The move functions fine after 1.1.5. The reason the move was bad was because it was weak on hit, and the sourspot caused next to no damage/hitstun making it unsafe for Samus on hit. With the damage and knockback buffed in 1.1.5, the move functions a lot better now. The hitboxes of the move look bad on paper, but they work fine. They don't break the move or do anything harmful to it at all. This would be more of a QoL change that does little in reality.

Yeah I'm aware that this is a QoL change, that was my intention. I just find it strange that her hitboxes are so small, she's got some exposed hurtboxes on her calf and her butt (Not that these ever really come into play), which is weird when ZSS is over there with actual full hitboxes. It's not like Melee Samus' Ftilt is a crazy overtuned move either. But yeah, QoL change.

Also, I don't think the world is ready for a Dtilt with as much range and interruptabiliy as Marth's Dtilt, with more damage. If you ask me, Samus's Dtilt needs a little bit more KBG, to allow it to KO that bit sooner. In increase of around 10 KBG points would so good. That, or give it an increase in damage of around 1-2%, which in turn will allow it to KO sooner. If anything, it needs this more than a duration decrease. A duration decrease of around 3 frames would be nice while keeping it balanced. Do you realise how obnoxious her Dtilt would be if it had 24 frames of duration, how absurdly hard it would be to punish on shield. Think of Diddy's Dtilt, but remember Samus's Dtilt has higher hitlag, and does a lot more damage... imagine Samus spamming Dtilt on your shield like Diddy can, only with more damage and hitstun...

Diddy Dtilt Samus sounds godlike lol. Yeah I guess I could tone this down, although shield pressure like that on a character with a bad grab doesn't sound too bad. When I was thinking up this move I was looking at Marth, Falco, and Mewtwo's dtilt's as examples of safe poking dtlits with some combo potential. Was using Marth's tipper Dtilt as justification for a safe disjointed dtilt although Marth's does less damage. Perhaps Falco would have been a better disjointed dtilt to base it off of since Falco's can also do 12% and it kills at I think around the 150 - 160 range. I'll look into a good KBG number but an increase by 10 does sound about right. I think I'll change the duration to a bit slower than Falco somewhere between 35F - 37F. I forgot to factor in jumpsquat and shielddrop frames on this move when looking at shield safety. Since the move is already safe from shield grabs the extra 4 - 8 /7 frames should probably be considered when looking at safety which I didn't do.

Another thing; if anything, Super Missiles need more knockback too more than anything, as while powerful, they don't do enough in reality. Changing the launch angle from 60° to 45° would be a good start, while increasing the KBG slightly. Perhaps a decrease in duration of around 3 frames would also be nice (remember she can only have 1 Super Missile on screen at a time).

I actually forgot that Super Missiles don't kill until absurd percents cause I barely use them anymore. That's definitely more relevant a change than a duration decrease though, you're right. Not sure how much I'd increase their KO power maybe to KO around 150-160ish since Samus already has Charge Shot, I don't think she needs another super powerful KO projectile. Lower angle would help out a lot though I like that change.

Homing Missiles with 43 duration would also be a bit powerful. I do think they need a decrease in duration, but think like this; 43 would be Luigi's Fireballs with homing capability. I think having a 5 - 6 frame duration decrease would make homing missiles a bit better, while keeping them balanced.

You're right that sounds obnoxious lol.

What you said about Dsmash and Fsmash work in my book. Dsmash needs something to make it KO a bit earlier. You could even have a KBG increase lower than you suggested (such as around 52-54), and have the move deal 1% more damage too. It is also pitifully weak on damage. Fsmash's duration decrease would be cool. Either that, or leave the duration as it is, and make the sourspot deal a tiny bit more BKB to make it hit a little bit harder.

I like the Dsmash suggestion, higher damage + lower KBG. Just had a look and yeah Samus' Dsmash is a bit weaker damage wise than most characters so I'll give that a change.

Currently, Samus can do a lot of stuff now, and these changes would make her a 100% totally solid character (not that she is bad now, because after 1.1.5, she is pretty decent as opposed to below average).

I definitely agree that she's a solid character. She doesn't have too many blatantly undertuned moves besides maybe, Jab, Dsmash, and Super Missiles and she doesn't really desperately need any changes at this point. She's in a good spot, very fun character to play.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Hey, thanks for the feedback. Nice to get a second opinion I'll probably be editing my post later today or tomorrow based on what you've said. Mostly cause I think I might share it with some friends just to show them what my ideal 1.1.6 changes would be.
Yeah I'm aware that this is a QoL change, that was my intention. I just find it strange that her hitboxes are so small, she's got some exposed hurtboxes on her calf and her butt (Not that these ever really come into play), which is weird when ZSS is over there with actual full hitboxes. It's not like Melee Samus' Ftilt is a crazy overtuned move either. But yeah, QoL change.

Diddy Dtilt Samus sounds godlike lol. Yeah I guess I could tone this down, although shield pressure like that on a character with a bad grab doesn't sound too bad. When I was thinking up this move I was looking at Marth, Falco, and Mewtwo's dtilt's as examples of safe poking dtlits with some combo potential. Was using Marth's tipper Dtilt as justification for a safe disjointed dtilt although Marth's does less damage. Perhaps Falco would have been a better disjointed dtilt to base it off of since Falco's can also do 12% and it kills at I think around the 150 - 160 range. I'll look into a good KBG number but an increase by 10 does sound about right. I think I'll change the duration to a bit slower than Falco somewhere between 35F - 37F. I forgot to factor in jumpsquat and shielddrop frames on this move when looking at shield safety. Since the move is already safe from shield grabs the extra 4 - 8 /7 frames should probably be considered when looking at safety which I didn't do.

I actually forgot that Super Missiles don't kill until absurd percents cause I barely use them anymore. That's definitely more relevant a change than a duration decrease though, you're right. Not sure how much I'd increase their KO power maybe to KO around 150-160ish since Samus already has Charge Shot, I don't think she needs another super powerful KO projectile. Lower angle would help out a lot though I like that change.

You're right that sounds obnoxious lol.

I like the Dsmash suggestion, higher damage + lower KBG. Just had a look and yeah Samus' Dsmash is a bit weaker damage wise than most characters so I'll give that a change.

I definitely agree that she's a solid character. She doesn't have too many blatantly undertuned moves besides maybe, Jab, Dsmash, and Super Missiles and she doesn't really desperately need any changes at this point. She's in a good spot, very fun character to play.

I've played Samus since the Wii U release, so I know my fair bit about her by now

I'm just glad that the stigma of Samus being terrible seems to have (mostly) died off now. I still look back and find it absurd how people could even consider her to be the worst character in the game, or even in the bottom 5. Sure, she had troubles, but she had a lot of positives. Now, Samus doesn't really have "troubles" so to speak. She has a few weaknesses, but nothing really aside from her Jab not linking that is a trouble to her.

 

[Arrei]

has already received a number of buffs since release, but few of them have really addressed any of his most glaring weaknesses and the power creep from all the other characters' patch buffs have been making them more apparent. What I think he still needs:

Spoiler

- Aether gains ledge snap if the spinning portion of the move starts close enough to the ledge. It's vulnerable to too much right now: slow startup during which an opponent can gimp, lengthy spin animation that can be spiked or pushed offstage by windboxes, and only a scant few armor frames which do not provide adequate protection.
- Eruption spike hitbox now works on aerial targets, now that Bayonetta's Dsmash exists. Still only spikes when not at full power.
- Uthrow KBG reduced to make Ike's Hoo-Hah work on all opponents, or at least on non-floaty opponents. As one of the first significantly buffed combo throws, it seems as though they thought it would be a great way to improve his close quarters game, but didn't commit to making these combos kill until giving them to characters like Robin and Bowser.
- Dtilt angle changed to be more vertical, damage increased 1%, KBG reduced accordingly, BKB reduced to make it more reliable of a combo starter, as Corrin now has a Dtilt that is functionally identical but is 2 frames faster and links into combos at almost all percents. KBG reduction should not make it possible to link into kill moves, this is just to improve Ike's ground game. Extra damage and altered angle should make it able to reliably combo from lower percent, as it currently only works at mid percent. Also makes it a little more worthwhile to land after it stops comboing.
- Dair's lingering hitbox from Brawl returned. Spike hitbox increased to cover the length of his sword on the first two frames, making the sourspot the hilt and Ike's body instead. Move currently has a tiny spike hitbox and the same startup as but worse FAFs than Captain Falcon's, and is outclassed in literally every way by Cloud's.
- Dsmash startup reduced by 2 frames to make it match Utilt. Back hit startup reduced by 5 frames (7 frames total) to make it actually able to hit rolls. Currently one of Ike's worst moves and a candidate for the worst Dsmash in the game.
- FSmash endlag reduced to make it unpunishable on shield. It's already tied with King Dedede's for the slowest smash in the game, yet Dedede's version is both stronger and has better FAFs. What the heck.
- Y'know what, how about we just completely trash Ike's Fsmash and replace it with a copy of Roy's or Link's?
- Pipe dream: Quick Draw no longer causes helplessness on hit, has lower endlag to have followup options, and bounces on aerial hit like Falcon's Raptor Boost does, to be less vulnerable to opponents simply putting themselves in his way offstage. The move has too little punch, too much startup, and loses to everything. But changes this drastic, particularly to the way the move behaves on hit, have never been seen in a patch before...
- Pettiness: Jab3 damage increased by 1%. It still bothers me a year and a half after release that Shulk's jab is stronger, even outside Buster.

needs a few quality of life changes, I think:

Spoiler

- Bowser Bomb's grounded first hit needs refining as it can currently still cause the Bomb to whiff depending on rage and certain positioning.
- Bowsercide behavior made consistent so Bowser dies first on all stages as intended, instead of causing Sudden Death on certain stages.
- Utilt endlag decreased to match Donkey Kong's.
- Dsmash gains vacuum windboxes on both sides to suck opponents in, effectively increasing its range. Currently requires the opponent to be much too close for too little reward, as the other candidate for the game's worst Dsmash.

as well:

Spoiler

- Draconic Ascent's final hit is affected less by DI.
- Full charge Dragon Fang Bite's hitbox made taller to properly hit an opponent stunned by the Shot in the air.

Obligatorynerfs, but alas I don't know enough details about Bayo to know if these have the effect I intend:

Spoiler

- Extending aerials by holding the button increases landing lag
- Witch Twist endlag increased, but can be canceled early by ABK to preserve "that" combo and recovery but prevent ridiculously early elevator kills.
- Back hit of Heel Slide's flip kick changed to a sourspot that knocks opponent away onto the ground instead of up.
- Dash attack startup decreased, range significantly decreased. It'll become less unique as a result, but it currently has no purpose since Heel Slide is superior in every way.
- dABK on an aerial opponent knocks them away instead of up. Nerfs combo ability from landing dABK on a grounded opponent, but knockback should be strong enough to be a kill move at higher percent.
- dABK landing lag increased
- SDI multiplier on rapid jab increased, or damage reduced to 15% total. It may be a slow jab, but making it both very strong and harder to escape than other jabs is just overcompensating.
- Witch Time cooldown increased, endlag increased to 60 frames to match Marcina's, the "default" counter
- Dodge version of Bat Within only activates at the end of the dodge rather than at the beginning, making her airdodge frame 2 and making the effect more close to the source game's.

:

Spoiler

- All grab hitboxes increased in size, but still slow
- Dthrow angle made more vertical to allow low percent combos, but not mid and high percent, KBG increased if necessary
- Fthrow and Bthrow KBG increased to match Captain Falcon's ability to use them as kill throws
- Uthrow damage increase to 13% to allow keeping Fthrow fresh
- Air speed increased, enough to survive being knocked horizontally offstage at an altitude of one character height. Ganon is already just short of making it back in such a situation, and that's not even taking into account the extremely easy edgeguard.
- Wizard's Foot travels slightly farther, moves faster to make the move last the same amount of time. Hitbox comes out earlier to cover the blindspot directly in front of him on startup.
- Opponent does not automatically grab the ledge if Flame Choked over the edge. Recovery is possible but requires a conscious effort, and allows Ganon to try to give chase.
- Dark Dive last hit changed to semispike angle at all percents instead of Sakurai angle, making bad edgeguard attempts against Ganon deadly.
- Aerial Flame Choke endlag and slam effect changed to match grounded Choke followups

 

[Ih8heels]

RoSTALINa & Manhands
removed from the roster.

Doc
weight increase to jusitfy his lack of speed & poor recovery.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don't know how, but I forgot Luigi. I never took a second look at him after Sakurai Sakurai'd him.

- Down throw KBG and BKB reverted back to how they once were.
- Aerial Luigi Cyclone is easier to SDI out of, to prevent the return of Green Diddy.
- Luigi Cyclone no longer requires mashing of the Gods to gain distance.
- Slight air speed increase.

 

[Simperheve]

More Knockback on B-throw so it can be used as an earlier kill option.
Needs an overhaul on his frame data and maybe a slight increase in run speed? It seems quite difficult to approach outside of Speed Monado

 

[mario123007]

More Knockback on B-throw so it can be used as an earlier kill option.
Needs an overhaul on his frame data and maybe a slight increase in run speed? It seems quite difficult to approach outside of Speed Monado

Yep, Shulk needs more of those kind of buffs.

Spoiler

RoSTALINa & Manhands
removed from the roster.

Do't make me laugh bub, not getting tired f hating these characters? And I see what you did there in the Rosalina thread, nobody gives a **** on that post.

 

[Narr]

• Back throw kills are a little much when he has everything he has... maybe tone those down a bit?

• Better air speed

• Better grab. Come on, Sakurai.

• Nerfed

 

[MarioMeteor]

• Back throw kills are a little much when he has everything he has... maybe tone those down a bit?

• Better air speed

• Better grab. Come on, Sakurai.

• Nerfed

Mario's back throw is rather weak for a kill throw. It only KOs reliably on the edge, and it barely does that. I actually wish it were stronger.

 

[Maik93]

• Air speed increased (0.8 → 0.85)
• Final Cutter now has super armor during the rising portion of the move

Since you are asking for super armor during the rise, I'm going to ask for the same for
He only has 3 frames of super armor during the very first hit of aether... I would suggest these changes for aether:

• super armor 18-21 -> 16-38
  Frame 38 is the first frame Ike starts spinning at the peak and it would cover the really slow startup just a bit

• able to sweetspot the ledge, foregoing the spinning part
  I know this sounds pretty broken but everyone can spike Ike quite easily at the peak of aether... furthermore characters with pushboxes can even gimp Ike at the lowest possible height you can use aether

With these changes Ike actually gets a decent recovery aside from the fact that it is linear.

As for Ike as a whole I would like to see those changes:

• dair -> add sourspot hitbox frame 18-35
  This would basically give Ike his brawl dair back. comparde to cloud's it starts 5 frames later (frame 16) and now only has 2 active frames (16+17) while the FAF is only 5 frames earlier thant cloud's (frame 55.). Cloud's dair lingers until frame 42 so I think these changes should be quite fair
• Quickdraw (side-b) fix hurtbox detection or increase hitbox size
  Right now as long as the opponent isn't directly in front of Ike his quickdraw willl activate but not hit said opponent, leaving Ike unnecessary open
• fsmash replace sourspot hitbox with normal
  For a fsmash that comes out frame 31 (second slowest I think) to have a sourspot that doesn't kill before 100%
  Just think about it... Ike can't kill you with a fsmash below 100%
  
• Counter damage multiplier 1.2 -> 1.25 ; counter attack intangibility 1-5 -> 1-6
  I think the damage increase would help Ike's status as a hard hitting heavyweight and make him return more damage than the falchions. Furthermore is Ike's counter the second slowest in the game (frame 9) only Palutena and Peach with frame 10 are worse. As for the intangibility, this would help Ike to counter multihit moves without getting hit first.
• dtilt startup 7-6, decrease kbg & increase damage slightly
  This would allow Ike to use his dtilt at a wider range of percents and make it closer to corrins, which comes out frame 5. I'm not sure wether the damage increase is necessary or not to reliably combo...alternativly better FAF's would do the job too
• uthrow decrease kbg slightly
  Ike is the only heavyweight besides Ganon to not have a "Ding-Dong" window, I think a small window like 5-10% would make him already much more consistent

I know these buffs sound huge, but for Ike to be a competitive threat they would be needed.
Honestly though, I would already be happy if just aether gets buffed like this.
Now onto some dreaming:

• Aether kills opponent first when used offstage -> aethercide
• Cloud's nair is frame 5... why is Ike's frame 11? It's almost the same movement
• Aerial quickdraw can be jumped out of (though only if a double jump is present)
• Eruption gets super armor without charging it
• fair gets even more range
• Jab 2 FAF 28 -> 20 bringing back Ike's jab cancel from brawl
• fthrow and bthrow combo into dash attack

 

[Smashifer]

Since you are asking for super armor during the rise, I'm going to ask for the same for
He only has 3 frames of super armor during the very first hit of aether... I would suggest these changes for aether:

• super armor 18-21 -> 16-38
  Frame 38 is the first frame Ike starts spinning at the peak and it would cover the really slow startup just a bit

Woah, Ike only has super armor for three frames? I thought it was much longer than that... Well, the more you know.