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Meta Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings

~ Gheb ~

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This is gonna be a lot, but: Kirby, Link, Bowser Jr, Falco, Mewtwo, Luigi, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Ness, ZSS, DHD, Little Mac, and lastly Diddy.
You honestly shouldn't pay too much attention to most of the characters I have placed below 3. I haven't spent too much time thinking about where they should be exactly. It's easily possible that Kirby and Link are too low and Bjr too high on my list.

I'm not exactly sure what you want me to explain about characters that I have placed at *** [Mewtwo, Luigi, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Ness]. That's the jolly old average rating that the majority of characters just have to be in [otherwise it wouldn't be average!]. All these characters we're talking about here are neither worse nor better than the majority of the case so *** seems like a very natural choice. I'm not sure where else I should have placed them?

ZSS is a cut above average in neutral. A lot of it has to do with her god-tier advantaged state bleeding into her neutral state. Her ability to remove stocks at very low % and to convert from neutral into advantaged state mean that in practical terms she tends to beat 3-star characters in neutral for one reason or another. She has good range in neutral, safe pokes and nice OoS options.
I dunno about DHD, I think if most character had to outplay him in neutral they wouldn't win. He can brickwall people pretty consistently and deal a repectable amount of damage in the process, for most character it's not easy to approach him. If the consequences of getting shut out by him weren't so lim [due to his poor advantaged state] the scare factor could boost his neutral even to **** but as things stand I think 3.5 seems accurate enough.

Playing against Little Mac is all about getting him out of neutral asap. Neutral is honestly all he has. He won't juggle or gimp you so all he has in advantaged position is his ability to cover ledge options pretty decently and his disadvantaged state ... well, let's not talk about that one. Simply put, you'll never see Little Mac getting outneutraled by just about anybody except the likes of Sheik, Sonic or Rosalina. There's a reason for that.

Diddy's neutral is just very complete and doesn't leave anything to be desired. Incredible set of tilts, great conversion from neutral into advantage, decent tools to prevent getting put into disadvantaged position, AMAZING projectile and OoS game, a command grab and strong grab game in general, very good and versatile aerials. I could go on and on about how good Diddy is in neutral but I hope what I mentioned above will suffice. The only thing that *could* be better about his neutral, I guess, is his jab but it still serves its purpose.

Nice. I've always thought Ike was 3, but then there were a bunch of characters I felt were similar at 3.5. This puts him in the right place.
It just never really made sense that on a scale between 0.5 and 5 the majority of characters ended up on 3.5, which is thoroughly over-average. Using simple no-nonsene logic and principles of good ol' normal distribution it's kind of obvious that at least 2/3rds of this game's cast should be placed between 3.5 and 2.5 with straight 3 taking a good 50% all by itself.

Megaman is criminally low considering his sheer projectile spam, and marth being 13 spaces higher than lucina? Being 1-2 frames safer on a tipper fair hardly makes that big of a difference.
They aren't ordered within their respective category.

:059:
 

ItsRainingGravy

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You honestly shouldn't pay too much attention to most of the characters I have placed below 3. I haven't spent too much time thinking about where they should be exactly. It's easily possible that Kirby and Link are too low and Bjr too high on my list.

I'm not exactly sure what you want me to explain about characters that I have placed at *** [Mewtwo, Luigi, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Ness]. That's the jolly old average rating that the majority of characters just have to be in [otherwise it wouldn't be average!]. All these characters we're talking about here are neither worse nor better than the majority of the case so *** seems like a very natural choice. I'm not sure where else I should have placed them?

ZSS is a cut above average in neutral. A lot of it has to do with her god-tier advantaged state bleeding into her neutral state. Her ability to remove stocks at very low % and to convert from neutral into advantaged state mean that in practical terms she tends to beat 3-star characters in neutral for one reason or another. She has good range in neutral, safe pokes and nice OoS options.
I dunno about DHD, I think if most character had to outplay him in neutral they wouldn't win. He can brickwall people pretty consistently and deal a repectable amount of damage in the process, for most character it's not easy to approach him. If the consequences of getting shut out by him weren't so lim [due to his poor advantaged state] the scare factor could boost his neutral even to **** but as things stand I think 3.5 seems accurate enough.

Playing against Little Mac is all about getting him out of neutral asap. Neutral is honestly all he has. He won't juggle or gimp you so all he has in advantaged position is his ability to cover ledge options pretty decently and his disadvantaged state ... well, let's not talk about that one. Simply put, you'll never see Little Mac getting outneutraled by just about anybody except the likes of Sheik, Sonic or Rosalina. There's a reason for that.

Diddy's neutral is just very complete and doesn't leave anything to be desired. Incredible set of tilts, great conversion from neutral into advantage, decent tools to prevent getting put into disadvantaged position, AMAZING projectile and OoS game, a command grab and strong grab game in general, very good and versatile aerials. I could go on and on about how good Diddy is in neutral but I hope what I mentioned above will suffice. The only thing that *could* be better about his neutral, I guess, is his jab but it still serves its purpose.



It just never really made sense that on a scale between 0.5 and 5 the majority of characters ended up on 3.5, which is thoroughly over-average. Using simple no-nonsene logic and principles of good ol' normal distribution it's kind of obvious that at least 2/3rds of this game's cast should be placed between 3.5 and 2.5 with straight 3 taking a good 50% all by itself.



They aren't ordered within their respective category.

:059:
Hmm, alrighty. As for the characters at or below 3 Stars, and all the characters I mentioned, I wasn't really looking for anything specific in particular. Just general information, really. Mostly in regards to where "boundaries should be" to help distinguish and separate one rank from the next.

In my opinion, Link is too low, since having frame 4 bomb dash throws (and frame 7 standing throws) on top of sword disjoints should allow him to perform similarly to characters in Rank 2, yet allow him to yield more success as a result. Not to mention his Zair shutting down the other characters in Rank 2. So I see him hanging out with the 2.5 crowd.

I have no idea about Kirby, but I do know that his run speed was recently buffed, his attacks sometimes have pretty decent range to them in contrast to his small size, and stuff like his frame data on tilts being pretty nice. Better than Ganondorf I bet, but I am not sure by how much. Maybe Rank 1.5, but I can see the Rank 2 crew beating him. Still, I'll have to test him out in a couple of matches to see if he does indeed warrant a higher spot on the list.

Bowser Jr is fine. Mechakoopa alone, plus disjoints on every single attack he has, is enough to keep him in the spot he's currently is. Slower frame data, especially on his aerials and grab, will probably prevent him from going any higher, though. Not to mention his poor jab, which limits him to using Dtilt as a substitute. If it weren't for the Mechakoopa, he would drop to Rank 2.


tbh, I actually thought that ZSS would be a bit higher, like Rank 4. Long ranged tilts and aerials, extremely low landing lag, Paralyzer (especially with B-Reverse and Wavebouncing tricks), Flip Kick to help her ignore stuff, mobility, Zair, and her other tools on top of that. As a Mario main, I actually see her as having a better neutral than him overall, despite having a tether grab.

Hmm. I'll have to look more into DHD it seems. I could be underrating him, but at the same time, the other Rank 3.5 characters seem like they would have enough tools to counter his strategy pretty effectively, while the characters in Rank 3 would have a fairly difficult yet reasonable enough time dealing with him. I'll try a couple of matches with him later to help solidify my opinions about him, but atm, it seems like he would drop to Rank 3 on your list.

Fair points on Little Mac. I have a feeling he could potentially drop, but for now, he probably has enough strength to stay in Rank 4. Since I can still see him beating the characters in Rank 3.5

In regards to Diddy, how would you compare his Neutral with Rosalina's? Specifically, what makes his Neutral superior to that of hers. Not denying that he has a great Neutral, just double-checking if he has enough strength to warrant a higher placement than her in the neutral.

---

Short summary of my thoughts atm:
:4megaman: Probably moving up to Rank 3.5
:4duckhunt: Probably moving down to Rank 3. Needs more testing/opinions.
:4zss: Might move up to Rank 4.
:4link: Moving up to Rank 2.5
:4lucina: Moving up. But I am not sure by how much atm.
:4kirby: Might move up. Might not. Needs more testing/opinions.
:4bowserjr: Stays for now.
:4littlemac: Stays for now.


:4diddy::rosalina: Depending on how people feel about these two characters, I could merge them to the same rank, and just have one before the other. (Although character placement within the same rank is currently not my focus atm/we'll get to that eventually)

Unranked Characters: This is my primary focus atm. For both the list I posted, and the list that Gheb posted, I need much more opinions about these characters so that we can put them somewhere on the list. If anyone has any information about these characters, please post them in this topic.

Need more data for:

:4bayonetta::4cloud::4corrin::4kirby::4lucario::4ness::4lucas::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4palutena::4ryu::4tlink::4olimar::4wiifit::4pacman: (maybe others)
 
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Doctor_Link

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Megaman is criminally low considering his sheer projectile spam, and marth being 13 spaces higher than lucina? Being 1-2 frames safer on a tipper fair hardly makes that big of a difference.
Considering that proper neutral is basically the exact same, since Marth gets more reward off of the same neutral plays, it makes sense that Marth is higher than Lucina.
 

Vyrnx

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I actually think Samus could be 2.5 in neutral, with great tilts, shad to uair for crossing shields, zair and bair safe on shield, up b oos, fast/good range jab at mid+ percents, and her projectiles. Her projectiles don't do a whole lot to prevent approaches, but for opponents who want to stay at long range, it's not really an option since Samus has really strong projectiles, unless they have a reflector. Samus' midrange game is phenomenal and converts to kills well, and charging CS forces approaches. Her dash attack is super good and I guess her fsmash is fast/powerful as well.

She can't go above 3 because her grab sucks, her jab is dysfunctional at low percents, and some of her moves are almost useless against small characters like Pikachu. However, with her midrange game (which I would argue is definitely one of the best in the game), oos, and powerful shad options, I think 2.5 is a decent compromise.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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After an extensive amount of testing, here is what I currently feel about the characters in regards to the Neutral State.


Neutral Rankings v0.1



I used Gheb's rankings as a template, and then tweaked it a fair bit. How does it look so far? If you feel as though any characters feel out of place, and deserve to be higher/lower, let me know. And, of course, you can ask me why I put a specific character in a certain place/rank, as well.

Of course, we still have quite a ways to go, as there are still 15 unranked characters that need to be tackled. I don't have the time to test them atm, but hopefully, this will suffice for now. Lastly, this image will now be in the OP as well, and I'll post the rules in the OP when I have the time to.


Feel free to tear this list apart, ladies and gentlemen~
 
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lbrasz44

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After an extensive amount of testing, here is what I currently feel about the characters in regards to the Neutral State.


Neutral Rankings v0.1



I used Gheb's rankings as a template, and then tweaked it a fair bit. How does it look so far? If you feel as though any characters feel out of place, and deserve to be higher/lower, let me know. And, of course, you can ask me why I put a specific character in a certain place/rank, as well.

Of course, we still have quite a ways to go, as there are still 15 unranked characters that need to be tackled. I don't have the time to test them atm, but hopefully, this will suffice for now. Lastly, this image will now be in the OP as well, and I'll post the rules in the OP when I have the time to.


Feel free to tear this list apart, ladies and gentlemen~
Spent a good 20 minutes making a post why Wario should be 3 stars. Sees him at 2 lumped with DDD and Roy. Why Gravy whhhyyy

Haha aside from that, its pretty good so far. Although I am curious as to why Dr Mario is also in 2 stars in comparison to regular Mario in 3.5, I'd argue their differences start to show in the other states -especially disadvantage- whereas they're fairly similar in the neutral. Unless I'm unaware of any vital difference between the two of them of course.

Also, I'd make the case for Cloud being in 4 stars. Charging limit whenever you can while having sizable disjoints that are quick both in the air and ground, and a projectile- which is fairly telegraphed but still a projectile regardless- is pretty significant when doing footsies.
 

FullMoon

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Toon Link should probably be at 3.5 or maybe even 4. Bombs are really good and he has really solid mobility to make use of them while also having a small size, plus all of his other projectiles and Z-Air allow him to do very well in neutral.
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
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After an extensive amount of testing, here is what I currently feel about the characters in regards to the Neutral State.


Neutral Rankings v0.1



I used Gheb's rankings as a template, and then tweaked it a fair bit. How does it look so far? If you feel as though any characters feel out of place, and deserve to be higher/lower, let me know. And, of course, you can ask me why I put a specific character in a certain place/rank, as well.

Of course, we still have quite a ways to go, as there are still 15 unranked characters that need to be tackled. I don't have the time to test them atm, but hopefully, this will suffice for now. Lastly, this image will now be in the OP as well, and I'll post the rules in the OP when I have the time to.


Feel free to tear this list apart, ladies and gentlemen~
Robin probably around 2.5, maybe 3. Levin aerials and Arcfire to control space are nice, but his ground mobility and the endlag on Arcfire kills him here. He can run to or away fast enough, so usually he'll have to jump to get anywhere fast enough. If he Arcfires into the opponent's shield, they can roll in and punish the endlag.
I'd put Corrin as 3-3.5; he has a projectile, several long range attacks, and a good set of aerials. His mobility isn't great, but it's good enough.
 

Nobie

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I find there to be something very strange about this list, or at the very least how we're defining Neutral.

Look at the 2-star rankings and below. Who are some of the characters in it?

Wario. Game & Watch. Jigglypuff at HALF A STAR.

What do all of these characters have in common? They've got some of the best aerial movement in the game. Jigglypuff and Wario are two kings of aerial weaving, while G&W sports the best aerial DECELERATION in the game. Jiggs and Wario suffer from a lack of range and disjoints, and G&W has pretty bad landing lag, but I just feel like... no character that moves through the air THAT well should be relegated to such a poor neutral rating.

The "problem" that doesn't actually exist is that I think Smash players associate neutral with the constant pressing of buttons. Gotta get those safe fairs out. Gotta get that quick dtilt out. Gotta use my super fast jab. Some characters are not designed to be so "buttonsy" and I think these three fall into that category and shouldn't be judged too harshly that they have to be more careful with their attacks.

People lament Falco's neutral all the time for its lack of mobility despite his excellent pokes. These characters don't have good pokes for the most part, but they do have the mobility. From how people discuss Falco, it sounds like those strong tilts and aerials are nowhere near as important as how a character moves, but Jigglypuff, Wario, and G&W, who all excel at movement, are lower than him?

Personally I think Jigglypuff and G&W should at least be 2's if not higher, and Wario should at least be a 3.

To move on to the characters that haven't been ranked yet, I can't really say I'm anywhere close to an expert on any of them, but I do want to start up some discussion.

For Ryu, I think he has to be around a *** 1/2.

He has too many tools, too many possibilities and answers in neutral to be worse than average. At the same time, there are a handful of characters that are a pain for Ryu in neutral, but none that are so overwhelmingly awful that Ryu can't do a thing. He has a very complete neutral that just doesn't include any oppressive options (though the hitboxes on his aerials can sure feel that way sometimes!).

Lucario is a character that I think has to exist on a sliding scale because Aura directly affects his Neutral. It makes some attacks bigger, it makes everything have more shield stun (this crosses over into Advantage as well), and fighting a Lucario at 0% is different enough of an experience compared to fighting him at 150%.

I would therefore put Lucario as a **(*), with the extra * being the difference between no Aura and max Aura.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Spent a good 20 minutes making a post why Wario should be 3 stars. Sees him at 2 lumped with DDD and Roy. Why Gravy whhhyyy

Haha aside from that, its pretty good so far. Although I am curious as to why Dr Mario is also in 2 stars in comparison to regular Mario in 3.5, I'd argue their differences start to show in the other states -especially disadvantage- whereas they're fairly similar in the neutral. Unless I'm unaware of any vital difference between the two of them of course.

Also, I'd make the case for Cloud being in 4 stars. Charging limit whenever you can while having sizable disjoints that are quick both in the air and ground, and a projectile- which is fairly telegraphed but still a projectile regardless- is pretty significant when doing footsies.
If a character is at the far ends of a specific rank, that usually means that I have a good feeling that they can easily be moved up/down with enough supporting evidence. Also, I feel less confident for character placements in Rank 2 and below, so my thoughts can always change over time. As a matter of fact, Wario was one of the characters I had the most trouble placing, so he can easily move up.

After all, nothing is final on this list. And I am taking everyone's words into consideration.

For Wario himself, I purposely low-balled him on this list for now, to see if I can spark additional comments about his placement. I feel as though he could easily join the Rank 2.5ers. However, he has to play very reactively against characters that are Rank 2.5 and up. Against characters that are in Rank 2 and down, he doesn't have to worry about this issue as much. Hence his current placement. That being said, his aerial mobility and Chomp alone can definitely warrant a higher placement in the future.

As for Dr Mario, while he has just as much capability as a boxer as Mario does (it's even a bit better), what hurts him the most is his mobility. This makes catching his landing options easier to do, and overall makes him more predictable in regards to what he is going to do. Furthermore, his battles against disjointed attackers become more difficult this way, since he can't really space himself and dodge as effectively as Mario can, meaning that he is more likely to take a hit against these characters. He also lacks FLUDDs for disrupting opponents, and his Pills are easier to duck under as opposed to Mario's Fireballs. The lack of ground mobility also means that he can't dash in and grab the opponent as effectively as Mario, either. Overall, the lost of mobility really affects his neutral, even though he can be considered a better boxing character otherwise.

Cloud being in 4 Stars sounds fair. I can see him beating out the characters in Rank 3.5 fairly well.

Toon Link should probably be at 3.5 or maybe even 4. Bombs are really good and he has really solid mobility to make use of them while also having a small size, plus all of his other projectiles and Z-Air allow him to do very well in neutral.
Not sure about 4, but 3.5 sounds about right. His Neutral is more effective than Link's, though I am not sure about it being three ranks higher.

Robin probably around 2.5, maybe 3. Levin aerials and Arcfire to control space are nice, but his ground mobility and the endlag on Arcfire kills him here. He can run to or away fast enough, so usually he'll have to jump to get anywhere fast enough. If he Arcfires into the opponent's shield, they can roll in and punish the endlag.
I'd put Corrin as 3-3.5; he has a projectile, several long range attacks, and a good set of aerials. His mobility isn't great, but it's good enough.
Sounds good for both characters. I'll test them out, and the other characters mentioned thus far, soon enough.


I find there to be something very strange about this list, or at the very least how we're defining Neutral.

Look at the 2-star rankings and below. Who are some of the characters in it?

Wario. Game & Watch. Jigglypuff at HALF A STAR.

What do all of these characters have in common? They've got some of the best aerial movement in the game. Jigglypuff and Wario are two kings of aerial weaving, while G&W sports the best aerial DECELERATION in the game. Jiggs and Wario suffer from a lack of range and disjoints, and G&W has pretty bad landing lag, but I just feel like... no character that moves through the air THAT well should be relegated to such a poor neutral rating.

The "problem" that doesn't actually exist is that I think Smash players associate neutral with the constant pressing of buttons. Gotta get those safe fairs out. Gotta get that quick dtilt out. Gotta use my super fast jab. Some characters are not designed to be so "buttonsy" and I think these three fall into that category and shouldn't be judged too harshly that they have to be more careful with their attacks.

People lament Falco's neutral all the time for its lack of mobility despite his excellent pokes. These characters don't have good pokes for the most part, but they do have the mobility. From how people discuss Falco, it sounds like those strong tilts and aerials are nowhere near as important as how a character moves, but Jigglypuff, Wario, and G&W, who all excel at movement, are lower than him?

Personally I think Jigglypuff and G&W should at least be 2's if not higher, and Wario should at least be a 3.

To move on to the characters that haven't been ranked yet, I can't really say I'm anywhere close to an expert on any of them, but I do want to start up some discussion.

For Ryu, I think he has to be around a *** 1/2.

He has too many tools, too many possibilities and answers in neutral to be worse than average. At the same time, there are a handful of characters that are a pain for Ryu in neutral, but none that are so overwhelmingly awful that Ryu can't do a thing. He has a very complete neutral that just doesn't include any oppressive options (though the hitboxes on his aerials can sure feel that way sometimes!).

Lucario is a character that I think has to exist on a sliding scale because Aura directly affects his Neutral. It makes some attacks bigger, it makes everything have more shield stun (this crosses over into Advantage as well), and fighting a Lucario at 0% is different enough of an experience compared to fighting him at 150%.

I would therefore put Lucario as a **(*), with the extra * being the difference between no Aura and max Aura.
Funny enough, those are among the few characters that I am eyeing very carefully right now. Wario, G&W, Jigglypuff, and Peach in particular. Because of their specific traits, they all have to be played very reactively, which improves their effectiveness. However, playing super reactively is still a weakness, imo. Because it puts you at the mercy of your opponent's options, and what they might do. This problem becomes even more of an issue when the character in question lacks ways to pressure the opponent's shield effectively, or have a great projectile. Thankfully, those four characters do have something to help them out in that regard. Wario has Chomp retreating aerials, Peach has veggies and float, Jigglypuff has retreating aerials, and G&W has...Sausages? And Bucket for countering energy-based projectiles. Even so, they have less opportunities to make mistakes as opposed to other characters, they typically forgo things like dealing shield damage and getting damage off of lucky pokes in order to continue to ensure their safety, and none of them *really* have anything to threaten the opponent to approach them (Barring Peach if she gets really lucky with a Turnip Pull/Wario slowly charging his Waft). Furthermore, characters in Rank 2.5 or higher have tools to help them abuse these characters passive natures. For the Rank 2.5 characters: DK and Samus can be charging their Neutral Bs, Link has his multitude of projectiles, Falco has a projectile and a reflector, Bowser Jr has Mechakoopas, Shulk has the exact opposite of what those four characters have in terms of range, and lastly Bowser and Luigi also play a bit more reactively and thrive off of the opponent making a mistake with their huge rewards (DK also has Cargo Throw for this).

Eventually, super reactive characters are going to have to contest an opponent in order to win a match, especially if the opponent is controlling more of the stage. And against more skilled players, these types of characters are going to get diminishing returns, because the opponent can be just as reactive as you and are playing a character with options that are more threatening in more situations. The less mistakes that the opponent makes, the less chances these characters have in regards to winning the match. Because they rely on this tactic more than other characters do, to the point where it's basically a crutch for them. Therefore, while playing these characters reactively is the optimal choice in regards to their viability, it is still a weakness and not a strength. At least in my eyes, anyways. And it probably explains why you usually don't see these characters end up in higher tournament placements on average. Although Wario has been seen more than the other three, I believe.

HOWEVER, they do have their positive traits. Because of their reactive nature, they typically excel against opponents that don't know the matchup. Which can potentially elevate their strength much higher in contrast to other specific characters. All of them also have a flashy finishing move (Waft/Stitch Face or Bob-Omb or Saturn shieldbreak/Judgement #9/Rest) that can end a stock no matter what, despite most of them being luck-based. All of them have great mobility specs in the air, which not only improves their unpredictability, but also their recovery. And most have situational but useful normals on the ground, too. Along with other positive traits. So they should definitely not be overlooked, either.

As I've said, I will be keeping a close eye on these characters, as well as any other character that is more reactive in nature. Because their neutral games are typically more volatile than other characters, since they rely on the opponent making mistakes. So I will be watching and judging them very carefully in the future.

EDIT: In regards to Falco, I feel as though people undervalue him a little bit. His mobility is certainly an issue, but him having good CQC buttons help his overall defense up close. This makes him more reactive in nature, in a different way from the other four characters. Similar to Luigi, but with a different toolkit. That being said, you do raise a fair point about him. So I might lower him a bit in the future. I'll have to test and experiment with him more; eventually.

(IsaidsimilarthingsaboutDocinthissamepostsoitsonlyfairlol)

---

Sounds good for Ryu. He is going to be a bit interesting to judge, but for now, Rank 3.5 sounds like a solid placement for him.

As for Lucario...yeah, he is going to be a pain to rate. I'll definitely have to do something different for him. He's going to be one of the last characters I add in regards to each of the rankings (barring maybe the Disadvantage State).
 
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Nobie

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If a character is at the far ends of a specific rank, that usually means that I have a good feeling that they can easily be moved up/down with enough supporting evidence. Also, I feel less confident for character placements in Rank 2 and below, so my thoughts can always change over time. As a matter of fact, Wario was one of the characters I had the most trouble placing, so he can easily move up.

After all, nothing is final on this list. And I am taking everyone's words into consideration.

For Wario himself, I purposely low-balled him on this list for now, to see if I can spark additional comments about his placement. I feel as though he could easily join the Rank 2.5ers. However, he has to play very reactively against characters that are Rank 2.5 and up. Against characters that are in Rank 2 and down, he doesn't have to worry about this issue as much. Hence his current placement. That being said, his aerial mobility and Chomp alone can definitely warrant a higher placement in the future.

As for Dr Mario, while he has just as much capability as a boxer as Mario does (it's even a bit better), what hurts him the most is his mobility. This makes catching his landing options easier to do, and overall makes him more predictable in regards to what he is going to do. Furthermore, his battles against disjointed attackers become more difficult this way, since he can't really space himself and dodge as effectively as Mario can, meaning that he is more likely to take a hit against these characters. He also lacks FLUDDs for disrupting opponents, and his Pills are easier to duck under as opposed to Mario's Fireballs. The lack of ground mobility also means that he can't dash in and grab the opponent as effectively as Mario, either. Overall, the lost of mobility really affects his neutral, even though he can be considered a better boxing character otherwise.

Cloud being in 4 Stars sounds fair. I can see him beating out the characters in Rank 3.5 fairly well.


Not sure about 4, but 3.5 sounds about right. His Neutral is more effective than Link's, though I am not sure about it being three ranks higher.


Sounds good for both characters. I'll test them out, and the other characters mentioned thus far, soon enough.



Funny enough, those are among the few characters that I am eyeing very carefully right now. Wario, G&W, Jigglypuff, and Peach in particular. Because of their specific traits, they all have to be played very reactively, which improves their effectiveness. However, playing super reactively is still a weakness, imo. Because it puts you at the mercy of your opponent's options, and what they might do. This problem becomes even more of an issue when the character in question lacks ways to pressure the opponent's shield effectively, or have a great projectile. Thankfully, those four characters do have something to help them out in that regard. Wario has Chomp retreating aerials, Peach has veggies and float, Jigglypuff has retreating aerials, and G&W has...Sausages? And Bucket for countering energy-based projectiles. Even so, they have less opportunities to make mistakes as opposed to other characters, they typically forgo things like dealing shield damage and getting damage off of lucky pokes in order to continue to ensure their safety, and none of them *really* have anything to threaten the opponent to approach them (Barring Peach if she gets really lucky with a Turnip Pull/Wario slowly charging his Waft). Furthermore, characters in Rank 2.5 or higher have tools to help them abuse these characters passive natures. For the Rank 2.5 characters: DK and Samus can be charging their Neutral Bs, Link has his multitude of projectiles, Falco has a projectile and a reflector, Bowser Jr has Mechakoopas, Shulk has the exact opposite of what those four characters have in terms of range, and lastly Bowser and Luigi also play a bit more reactively and thrive off of the opponent making a mistake with their huge rewards (DK also has Cargo Throw for this).

Eventually, super reactive characters are going to have to contest an opponent in order to win a match, especially if the opponent is controlling more of the stage. And against more skilled players, these types of characters are going to get diminishing returns, because the opponent can be just as reactive as you and are playing a character with options that are more threatening in more situations. The less mistakes that the opponent makes, the less chances these characters have in regards to winning the match. Because they rely on this tactic more than other characters do, to the point where it's basically a crutch for them. Therefore, while playing these characters reactively is the optimal choice in regards to their viability, it is still a weakness and not a strength. At least in my eyes, anyways. And it probably explains why you usually don't see these characters end up in higher tournament placements on average. Although Wario has been seen more than the other three, I believe.

HOWEVER, they do have their positive traits. Because of their reactive nature, they typically excel against opponents that don't know the matchup. Which can potentially elevate their strength much higher in contrast to other specific characters. All of them also have a flashy finishing move (Waft/Stitch Face or Bob-Omb or Saturn shieldbreak/Judgement #9/Rest) that can end a stock no matter what, despite most of them being luck-based. All of them have great mobility specs in the air, which not only improves their unpredictability, but also their recovery. And most have situational but useful normals on the ground, too. Along with other positive traits. So they should definitely not be overlooked, either.

As I've said, I will be keeping a close eye on these characters, as well as any other character that is more reactive in nature. Because their neutral games are typically more volatile than other characters, since they rely on the opponent making mistakes. So I will be watching and judging them very carefully in the future.

EDIT: In regards to Falco, I feel as though people undervalue him a little bit. His mobility is certainly an issue, but him having good CQC buttons help his overall defense up close. This makes him more reactive in nature, in a different way from the other four characters. Similar to Luigi, but with a different toolkit. That being said, you do raise a fair point about him. So I might lower him a bit in the future. I'll have to test and experiment with him more; eventually.

(IsaidsimilarthingsaboutDocinthissamepostsoitsonlyfairlol)

---

Sounds good for Ryu. He is going to be a bit interesting to judge, but for now, Rank 3.5 sounds like a solid placement for him.

As for Lucario...yeah, he is going to be a pain to rate. I'll definitely have to do something different for him. He's going to be one of the last characters I add in regards to each of the rankings (barring maybe the Disadvantage State).
I don't think it's necessary to move Falco down, as I also think people underrate his neutral. It's just interesting and kind of weird to see that people disagree on what's more important, mobility, or quality of pokes/shield-threatening moves.
 

TheHypnotoad

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I'll just link back to my post I made about why Robin should be 3 stars.

Robin's neutral is exceedingly average. He can space aerials on shield safely, but he also has a rough time punishing opponents for spacing aerials on his own shield. He can get up in your face and apply lots of pressure, but he also struggles when opponents get up in his face and apply pressure. He can camp out opponents, but he can also get camped out by opponents. Considering you put the average as three stars, I would put Robin in three stars as well.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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I don't think it's necessary to move Falco down, as I also think people underrate his neutral. It's just interesting and kind of weird to see that people disagree on what's more important, mobility, or quality of pokes/shield-threatening moves.
Ah okay. And yeah, that is true.

Ultimately though, the most important quality is time. The amount of time a character's mobility data can reduce in order to approach towards and retreat away from the opponent. And the amount of time a character's frame data can reduce in regards to the speed they can strike their opponent, or how quickly they recover from lag. When sometimes becomes predictable, either in terms of speed or reliance, the overall value of said ability becomes reduced. Likewise, having multiple options is always going to be more powerful than having a singular powerful option in the long run (unless it is gamebreakingly polarizing).

To me, I don't value one quality as being more important than the other, as it is all relevant. So for me, it is easier to just view a character's entire kit as a whole as opposed to singling out individual set pieces of their kit. Which makes it really hard to determine "which character is better in what regard", because of the incredibly high amount of variables one has to take in when evaluating scenarios like these. However, it is necessary to take in every single option, especially in regards to how well characters can place in tournaments.

So, lists like these, along with frame data and other sources of information, are always quite fascinating and helpful to look at.


Of course, none of it should ever stop anyone from playing who they want to play, though~
 

ItsRainingGravy

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I'll just link back to my post I made about why Robin should be 3 stars.
I honestly should've added Robin. He just kind of slipped my mind when making the list...whoops!

Toon Link, Robin, Cloud, Corrin, and others will be placed in the next one for sure.
 

G. Stache

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To be fair, while I can see why Luigi's neutral is only 2 1/2 stars: I believe he's a cut above the rest out of those characters. Bowser, for instance, makes a much bigger target, doesn't have the close combat options that Luigi does, and can't really pressure the opponents shield as well as Luigi, from what I've seen (will go into detail on that if you want. I feel as if that last claim sounds a bit outrageous). Tough guy helps in specific MUs and longer ranged normals help cover more area. But those two things don't make up for Luigi's quick moves, scarier shield pressure, a very dominant close range game, and a very good projectile to work with.

A lot of things Falco can do, Luigi seems to just do...better in neutral. Luigi has a functional projectile, a better boxing game, scarier shield pressure (though special mention to Falco's ability to pressure someone who's on a platform), a better SH game (though I don't see Falco relying much on SH aerials regardless), has a more annoying mid range game with fireballs, and strong kill moves that are relatively safe to throw out in neutral. Falco, to his merit, has tilts and a reflector.

If I have faulty information on either of the characters I was talking about or if you wish for me explain something more in depth, please feel free to reply. Should also be noted that I don't think Luigi has some sort of amazing neutral game. Just one that's better than the others in that grouping. His inability to approach is wildly stretched beyond the actual truth (he only has a -1 against Sheik and Rosa, two people who are, in theory, supposed to destroy him...a large part of destroying him coming from the misconception that his approach game is apparently Ganon level.). And while he still has a annoying time approaching against a few key characters, Luigi has a fairly strong neutral on a lot of the cast. I think his neutral is more 3 stars than 2 1/2. More around Ness/MK level neutral than the likes of Bowser or Falco.
 

my_T

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ness and luigi should switch places. Ness's neutral is laughable compared to most other characters in the 3 star group.

Ness cant force approaches. He has to approach himself to get anything done. Terrible ground mobility. Decent air mobility. Has a hard time landing. I think his fall speed hurts him just as much as it helps. Nothing to force shields (his mobility makes this even worse); therefore 9 times outta 10 gets grabs off of punishes or reads. (FALLING ONLY) Bair and Uair are safe on shield but not enough to put him at advantage. On shield both aerials leave him in a neutral or disadvantaged state. His other aerials are only safe if full hopped but leaves him at disadvantage if they don't hit because of mediocre landing options (PSI mag stalling included), slow fall speed, and having one jump. PK fire has alot of start up, a ton of end-lag, very high risk move to throw out. His range is good for his size but kinda crappy when compared to everyone else. His range and disjoints are only really threatening against characters that are both non-disjointed and low-ranged (fox, mario, most balloon types). Also ness's poor mobility makes it hard to pressure and relieve pressure when it comes to the really fast characters like falcon, sheik, sonic, etc.

Ness's zone breaking tools are decent at best. Psi magnet is very good against characters that have alot of energy based projectiles but robin's like the only one that falls into this category. It's also effective against pits, fox, pika, mario, and ZSS as it eliminates arrows, laser camping, fireball and paralyzer approach/pressure. Fsmash reflects but has a lot of start-up making it hard to use off of reaction and a lot of end-lag, making it punishable if it gets read. PK fire is very risky and has garbage rang compared to other projectiles. To top it all off his poor mobility makes it that much harder to deal with zones.

His only good tool in neutral is nair OoS. Other than that, an honorable mention (still kinda meh) is his dash attack. It has long range, disjoints and multiple hitboxes. At tip range it is safe on shield, the multiple hitboxes means it cant be power shielded, and has low enough end-lag to leave him in a neutral state (ONLY IF SPACED WELL).

At high level play ness has to be played with a very defensive and read based play-style. Ness shines when he has the advantage, but when it comes to neutral it's the total opposite.

LUIGI

Luigis neutral ****s on most of the characters in his group.

his fireball alone is enough to get him into the 3 star group. It cancels out most projectiles, has low end-lag, forces shield, forces aerial approaches, and controls ground space very well. Everything I just mentioned is very likely to be a contributing factor to why his down-grab got nerfed. It's just too easy for him to get the grab. Some characters have an answer to the fireball but not many.

If anyone would like I can go into more detail about luigis neutral. Tired of typing at the moment.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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To be fair, while I can see why Luigi's neutral is only 2 1/2 stars: I believe he's a cut above the rest out of those characters. Bowser, for instance, makes a much bigger target, doesn't have the close combat options that Luigi does, and can't really pressure the opponents shield as well as Luigi, from what I've seen (will go into detail on that if you want. I feel as if that last claim sounds a bit outrageous). Tough guy helps in specific MUs and longer ranged normals help cover more area. But those two things don't make up for Luigi's quick moves, scarier shield pressure, a very dominant close range game, and a very good projectile to work with.

A lot of things Falco can do, Luigi seems to just do...better in neutral. Luigi has a functional projectile, a better boxing game, scarier shield pressure (though special mention to Falco's ability to pressure someone who's on a platform), a better SH game (though I don't see Falco relying much on SH aerials regardless), has a more annoying mid range game with fireballs, and strong kill moves that are relatively safe to throw out in neutral. Falco, to his merit, has tilts and a reflector.

If I have faulty information on either of the characters I was talking about or if you wish for me explain something more in depth, please feel free to reply. Should also be noted that I don't think Luigi has some sort of amazing neutral game. Just one that's better than the others in that grouping. His inability to approach is wildly stretched beyond the actual truth (he only has a -1 against Sheik and Rosa, two people who are, in theory, supposed to destroy him...a large part of destroying him coming from the misconception that his approach game is apparently Ganon level.). And while he still has a annoying time approaching against a few key characters, Luigi has a fairly strong neutral on a lot of the cast. I think his neutral is more 3 stars than 2 1/2. More around Ness/MK level neutral than the likes of Bowser or Falco.
Hmm...nothing you have said really seems faulty to me. However, if there was one thing in particular I would like to ask the most, it would be Luigi's shield pressure. What can he do to pressure the opponent's shield? I know of Fireball -> Dashgrab because of the slow fireball speed, but I would like to learn about it in more detail.

Bowser's shield pressure certainly isn't bad, though. His Dtilt locks opponents in their shield, takes out about 50% of the opponent's shield, and can't be rolled out of. It's very similar in function to Ryu's heavy Ftilt actually. The differences between the two are that Bowser's Dtilt actually hits faster on frame 10 (Ryu's is 13), but the FAF is longer at 46 (instead of 35). Plus other differences such as hitbox size and etc. Bowser also has Bowser Bomb, which can easily break shields instantly...but to be fair, this isn't something you want to throw out in Neutral too often anyways. His aerial command grab is also pretty sluggish hitting at frame 17 instead of the grounded version's frame 8, but it's still there as an option.

Luigi's attacks are infinitely safer, though. No doubt about that. Also, isn't his Fsmash safe on shield? Is using Up B to break shields a good option in rare circumstances? Or is the extreme risk not worth it? (I wouldn't doubt it if that were the case)


As a small note, Luigi is another character I purposefully lowered to see if I could gather more information from people, since he was originally in Rank 3. You'll see me test the waters like this a lot as a way for me to double-check character placements. I don't mean to upset anyone by doing that, though.


ness and luigi should switch places. Ness's neutral is laughable compared to most other characters in the 3 star group.

Ness cant force approaches. He has to approach himself to get anything done. Terrible ground mobility. Decent air mobility. Has a hard time landing. I think his fall speed hurts him just as much as it helps. Nothing to force shields (his mobility makes this even worse); therefore 9 times outta 10 gets grabs off of punishes or reads. (FALLING ONLY) Bair and Uair are safe on shield but not enough to put him at advantage. On shield both aerials leave him in a neutral or disadvantaged state. His other aerials are only safe if full hopped but leaves him at disadvantage if they don't hit because of mediocre landing options (PSI mag stalling included), slow fall speed, and having one jump. PK fire has alot of start up, a ton of end-lag, very high risk move to throw out. His range is good for his size but kinda crappy when compared to everyone else. His range and disjoints are only really threatening against characters that are both non-disjointed and low-ranged (fox, mario, most balloon types). Also ness's poor mobility makes it hard to pressure and relieve pressure when it comes to the really fast characters like falcon, sheik, sonic, etc.

Ness's zone breaking tools are decent at best. Psi magnet is very good against characters that have alot of energy based projectiles but robin's like the only one that falls into this category. It's also effective against pits, fox, pika, mario, and ZSS as it eliminates arrows, laser camping, fireball and paralyzer approach/pressure. Fsmash reflects but has a lot of start-up making it hard to use off of reaction and a lot of end-lag, making it punishable if it gets read. PK fire is very risky and has garbage rang compared to other projectiles. To top it all off his poor mobility makes it that much harder to deal with zones.

His only good tool in neutral is nair OoS. Other than that, an honorable mention (still kinda meh) is his dash attack. It has long range, disjoints and multiple hitboxes. At tip range it is safe on shield, the multiple hitboxes means it cant be power shielded, and has low enough end-lag to leave him in a neutral state (ONLY IF SPACED WELL).

At high level play ness has to be played with a very defensive and read based play-style. Ness shines when he has the advantage, but when it comes to neutral it's the total opposite.

LUIGI

Luigis neutral ****s on most of the characters in his group.

his fireball alone is enough to get him into the 3 star group. It cancels out most projectiles, has low end-lag, forces shield, forces aerial approaches, and controls ground space very well. Everything I just mentioned is very likely to be a contributing factor to why his down-grab got nerfed. It's just too easy for him to get the grab. Some characters have an answer to the fireball but not many.

If anyone would like I can go into more detail about luigis neutral. Tired of typing at the moment.
Very good explanations on Ness. I honestly felt very iffy about his current placement. But this helps a lot. I appreciate it!

Explanations like this one really help me solidify where and why characters should be placed within a certain rank. My goal isn't to make a finalized list where characters are placed lower/higher than they should be. Rather, I simply wish for the list to be based upon the truth (at least in regards to the current patch's metagame). With supporting data, theories, and opinions to back it up. So, I don't want anyone to feel as though I am purposefully overvaluing or undervaluing characters. It's just difficult to distinguish the overall potential in characters sometimes.

So, if anyone truly feels as though a character simply isn't in the right place, please let me know. Since my goal is to work with everyone as best as I can, while providing a satisfying and insightful result...at least for the majority of people (can't please them all but I will certainly try lol).


And yeah, the more data, the merrier. Another major reason why I made this topic and the previous one was to learn about the characters in more depth. So feel free to talk more about Luigi's Neutral when you are able to.
 

G. Stache

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Hmm...nothing you have said really seems faulty to me. However, if there was one thing in particular I would like to ask the most, it would be Luigi's shield pressure. What can he do to pressure the opponent's shield? I know of Fireball -> Dashgrab because of the slow fireball speed, but I would like to learn about it in more detail.

Bowser's shield pressure certainly isn't bad, though. His Dtilt locks opponents in their shield, takes out about 50% of the opponent's shield, and can't be rolled out of. It's very similar in function to Ryu's heavy Ftilt actually. The differences between the two are that Bowser's Dtilt actually hits faster on frame 10 (Ryu's is 13), but the FAF is longer at 46 (instead of 35). Plus other differences such as hitbox size and etc. Bowser also has Bowser Bomb, which can easily break shields instantly...but to be fair, this isn't something you want to throw out in Neutral too often anyways. His aerial command grab is also pretty sluggish hitting at frame 17 instead of the grounded version's frame 8, but it's still there as an option.

Luigi's attacks are infinitely safer, though. No doubt about that. Also, isn't his Fsmash safe on shield? Is using Up B to break shields a good option in rare circumstances? Or is the extreme risk not worth it? (I wouldn't doubt it if that were the case)


As a small note, Luigi is another character I purposefully lowered to see if I could gather more information from people, since he was originally in Rank 3. You'll see me test the waters like this a lot as a way for me to double-check character placements. I don't mean to upset anyone by doing that, though.



Very good explanations on Ness. I honestly felt very iffy about his current placement. But this helps a lot. I appreciate it!

Explanations like this one really help me solidify where and why characters should be placed within a certain rank. My goal isn't to make a finalized list where characters are placed lower/higher than they should be. Rather, I simply wish for the list to be based upon the truth (at least in regards to the current patch's metagame). With supporting data, theories, and opinions to back it up. So, I don't want anyone to feel as though I am purposefully overvaluing or undervaluing characters. It's just difficult to distinguish the overall potential in characters sometimes.

So, if anyone truly feels as though a character simply isn't in the right place, please let me know. Since my goal is to work with everyone as best as I can, while providing a satisfying and insightful result...at least for the majority of people (can't please them all but I will certainly try lol).


And yeah, the more data, the merrier. Another major reason why I made this topic and the previous one was to learn about the characters in more depth. So feel free to talk more about Luigi's Neutral when you are able to.
"Keep in mind that Luigi's pokes aren't generally safe by standard definition, besides things like f smash and Bair. They're 'safe' because you can hit their shield quickly and encourage them to drop their shield to get hit by another quick move, or pressure them to stay in shield so you can score a grab. Jab, SH Dair and SH Fair all accomplish this. You don't really poke at their shield with Luigi: you prod at it in a way that makes the opponent feel that they can punish/stay in shield and you capitalize. You don't force a mistake from the opponent, you encourage it (if that makes any sense). That, along with grab, is one of the reasons I think Luigi's shield pressure is surprisingly great. It's a guessing game, sure, but it it's one that's always tipped in Luigi's favor. That's, at least, how I go around with dealing with shields. I've seen other players do other things, so do what feels best for you."

This is what I said in the competitive impressions forum. Again, Luigi doesn't have raw shield pressure (though F smash and Bair are good pokes). He encourages mistakes and punished accordingly with his dominant control of close combat fighting.

Also, no up b on shield. That's a move that's solely for punishing/jab setups. The only person you're threatening by attacking shield with it is yourself.
 
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RonNewcomb

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I find there to be something very strange about this list, or at the very least how we're defining Neutral.

Look at the 2-star rankings and below. Who are some of the characters in it?

Wario. Game & Watch. Jigglypuff at HALF A STAR.

What do all of these characters have in common? They've got some of the best aerial movement in the game. Jigglypuff and Wario are two kings of aerial weaving, while G&W sports the best aerial DECELERATION in the game. Jiggs and Wario suffer from a lack of range and disjoints, and G&W has pretty bad landing lag, but I just feel like... no character that moves through the air THAT well should be relegated to such a poor neutral rating.

Personally I think Jigglypuff and G&W should at least be 2's if not higher, and Wario should at least be a 3.

To move on to the characters that haven't been ranked yet, I can't really say I'm anywhere close to an expert on any of them, but I do want to start up some discussion.

For Ryu, I think he has to be around a *** 1/2.

He has too many tools, too many possibilities and answers in neutral to be worse than average. At the same time, there are a handful of characters that are a pain for Ryu in neutral, but none that are so overwhelmingly awful that Ryu can't do a thing. He has a very complete neutral that just doesn't include any oppressive options (though the hitboxes on his aerials can sure feel that way sometimes!)..
This. Shiek does NOT have top tier neutral. If a system change made combos impossible because each hit reset everyone to neutral, imagine her MU with Toon Link. Or Link for that matter.

Ryu has a hard time vs Link because of Link's strong neutral. Of course Link is in the running for worst disadvantage in the game...

I play Cloud and Tink both, and I find Tink's neutral is stronger. Cloud needs advantage to use those uairs, and tossing out LB moves in neutral doesn't do much for him.

We can give Sheik best disadvantage in the game, third best advantage behind Bayo and ZSS, but her neutral wholly consists of transitioning out of it as fast as possible.

I think Tink is in the running for best neutral in the game, and DHD and Marth are up there too. Link is only lower because baiting his slow everything is a sport, but for characters who are weak to good neutral, Link chews them up as well.

::shrug:: Just my two pence.
 

ARGHETH

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This. Shiek does NOT have top tier neutral.
Way to invalidate your entire post within the first two sentences.
To expand: Sheik's neutral is really good because she has a bunch of safe moves she can throw out that combo into other stuff, good ground and air speed, and Needles. Needles are especially important because they force other people to approach nstead of the other way around. If they didn't exist, her neutral would be good, but not great; since they exist, though, her neutral's very, very, good.
Also, what does the quoted post have to do with Sheik's neutral? Her air speed and air acceleration are both really good (14-19th and 9-14th, respectively, according to KH)
 

Coopwastaken

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I'd like to take a second to talk about shield pressure in this discussion.

Unlike Melee, we don't have characters with the tool that can constantly wear down shield and also be putting themselves in an advantageous position. We don't have anyone like fox/falco who can multishine on someone's shield or L-cancel to lead into another quick attack. The closest we can get to real shield pressure is one or two d-tilts from mac into down angled f smash.

We all know shields are pretty good in this game. So when it comes down to it, you need to be able to deal with shield. You have two options: Grab/command grab.

I think we could go on about how grab follow ups are more in advantage, but since you are usually considering shield in neutral and evaluating what happens if you do sit in shield, it should make for good discussion here. I think characters who can't follow up off of grabs or get kills with them get a little shafted in their neutral game. Yes, it is true that if I get grabbed by DHD that I will get throw off stage most likely and lose stage control, but how much have I truly lost when Duckhunt has to get a hard read to cover my getup realistically.

I just wanted to get this out in the open because I think it's definitely an important topic to consider when there are characters high on the list like fox who can't do much anything off grabs past 40% and then can't kill Rosa with their earliest kill throw at 180.

Edit: Forgot to mention moves that can easily break shield. They are few and far between and basically threaten more than a grab for more risk (missing these means you definitely get punished. It gives some characters like marth and lucina an answer to shield, sort of. It's very hard to bait out shield long enough and once you whiff once, I don't plan to ever hold shield in those positions again.
 
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TheHypnotoad

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I'd like to take a second to talk about shield pressure in this discussion.

Unlike Melee, we don't have characters with the tool that can constantly wear down shield and also be putting themselves in an advantageous position. We don't have anyone like fox/falco who can multishine on someone's shield or L-cancel to lead into another quick attack. The closest we can get to real shield pressure is one or two d-tilts from mac into down angled f smash.

We all know shields are pretty good in this game. So when it comes down to it, you need to be able to deal with shield. You have two options: Grab/command grab.

I think we could go on about how grab follow ups are more in advantage, but since you are usually considering shield in neutral and evaluating what happens if you do sit in shield, it should make for good discussion here. I think characters who can't follow up off of grabs or get kills with them get a little shafted in their neutral game. Yes, it is true that if I get grabbed by DHD that I will get throw off stage most likely and lose stage control, but how much have I truly lost when Duckhunt has to get a hard read to cover my getup realistically.

I just wanted to get this out in the open because I think it's definitely an important topic to consider when there are characters high on the list like fox who can't do much anything off grabs past 40% and then can't kill Rosa with their earliest kill throw at 180.
I agree that the presence or lack of grab follow ups does affect neutral. If a character lacks a good grab follow up, the opponent has little to fear by just putting their shield up every time you approach. I think this is one of the reasons why Bayonetta's neutral is below average.
 

Nobie

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I'd like to take a second to talk about shield pressure in this discussion.

Unlike Melee, we don't have characters with the tool that can constantly wear down shield and also be putting themselves in an advantageous position. We don't have anyone like fox/falco who can multishine on someone's shield or L-cancel to lead into another quick attack. The closest we can get to real shield pressure is one or two d-tilts from mac into down angled f smash.

We all know shields are pretty good in this game. So when it comes down to it, you need to be able to deal with shield. You have two options: Grab/command grab.

I think we could go on about how grab follow ups are more in advantage, but since you are usually considering shield in neutral and evaluating what happens if you do sit in shield, it should make for good discussion here. I think characters who can't follow up off of grabs or get kills with them get a little shafted in their neutral game. Yes, it is true that if I get grabbed by DHD that I will get throw off stage most likely and lose stage control, but how much have I truly lost when Duckhunt has to get a hard read to cover my getup realistically.

I just wanted to get this out in the open because I think it's definitely an important topic to consider when there are characters high on the list like fox who can't do much anything off grabs past 40% and then can't kill Rosa with their earliest kill throw at 180.

Edit: Forgot to mention moves that can easily break shield. They are few and far between and basically threaten more than a grab for more risk (missing these means you definitely get punished. It gives some characters like marth and lucina an answer to shield, sort of. It's very hard to bait out shield long enough and once you whiff once, I don't plan to ever hold shield in those positions again.
I think Melee has skewed Smash players' views of how powerful blocking/shields are supposed to be in fighting games, and we start to think that the only way to defeat a shield is to either whittle it down to nothing or to use grabs.

I watched a Street Fighter guide once which opened my eyes up to a different, non-Smash way of thinking about shields:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6xB-0JgwX4#t=6m40s

tl,dw: Blocking in most fighting games is supposed to be REALLY, REALLY good. You're not supposed to just be able to run roughshod over someone in a defensive posture, and someone who plays very well defensively should have something of an edge. Rather, the key to many fighting games, and I would argue Smash 4 as well, is how you can force your opponent on a psychological level to NOT block. The goal, rather than being to defeat shield head on, is to instill enough fear in them that they do not want to use their shield, and then you make them pay for it.

Grabs are one part of this. Grabs cause the opponent to be wary of shielding, and it is at that point that you can start to do damage. What makes Smash different, of course, is the distinction between damage and KOs, whereas other fighting games it doesn't matter if your attack does 1 damage or 1000: if it's all you need to deplete the opponent's life bar, that's it. This changes the dynamic a good deal, and makes characters with weak grab games suffer a bit more, but I think the fundamental dynamic of how guarding works in fighting games still very much applies.
 

Coopwastaken

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I think Melee has skewed Smash players' views of how powerful blocking/shields are supposed to be in fighting games, and we start to think that the only way to defeat a shield is to either whittle it down to nothing or to use grabs.

I watched a Street Fighter guide once which opened my eyes up to a different, non-Smash way of thinking about shields:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6xB-0JgwX4#t=6m40s

tl,dw: Blocking in most fighting games is supposed to be REALLY, REALLY good. You're not supposed to just be able to run roughshod over someone in a defensive posture, and someone who plays very well defensively should have something of an edge. Rather, the key to many fighting games, and I would argue Smash 4 as well, is how you can force your opponent on a psychological level to NOT block. The goal, rather than being to defeat shield head on, is to instill enough fear in them that they do not want to use their shield, and then you make them pay for it.

Grabs are one part of this. Grabs cause the opponent to be wary of shielding, and it is at that point that you can start to do damage. What makes Smash different, of course, is the distinction between damage and KOs, whereas other fighting games it doesn't matter if your attack does 1 damage or 1000: if it's all you need to deplete the opponent's life bar, that's it. This changes the dynamic a good deal, and makes characters with weak grab games suffer a bit more, but I think the fundamental dynamic of how guarding works in fighting games still very much applies.
I agree completely. If there were numerous options to beat block, the dynamic would really change and I think it could be really negative for the game. When I say shields are really good, I mean specifically in smash 4 compared to other games, like shield recovery time and how much easier it is to poke someone while they are in shield in melee when compared to smash 4.

I think your last paragraph is spot on how the game is played when there are blocking/shielding options. I was raising this point to bring out thought into how someones answer to shield is important when considering their neutral.
 

Poopysandwich

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not to bash anyone but does this chart viable to use because every character's neutral game changes with different matchups.
 

Djmarcus44

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These are my rankings for Mii Gunner.
ItsRainingGravy ItsRainingGravy , My current ratings for Mii Gunner:
Neutral: 4.5/5 stars
Advantage: 2/5 stars
Disadvantage: 3.5/5 stars

Gunner has one of the best neutrals in the game due to the range and safety of fair (It covers more than a quarter of final destination, and it is safe on perfect shielding) and the variety of good tools that are around it. Gunner forces most of the cast to approach by charging up charge blast and stops it easily with shorthop fair, bair, nair, pivot ftilt, pivot flame pillar, and pivot fsmash. Also Gunner has a very good approach with shorthop fair (it is a good transcendent poking projectile that only has 12 frames of landing lag) along with a good dash into shield and a decent foxtrot speed of 1.6. Mii Gunner can also Gundash toward an opponent as a speedy approach mixup. Gunner has amazing burst mobility due to gundashing (It has the speed of a falcon kick and it has no landing lag).

Mii Gunner lacks a reliable kill confirm and the character has low damage output. On the other hand Gunner has a good amount of combos and follow ups in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread, and Gunner is great at juggling and edgeguarding. Gunner also has decently fast killing options and jab canceled smashes to mitigate his/her killing issues. Gunner can also kill with up throw or Down throw to up air after a DI read.

Mii Gunner's recovery isn't that good (there are no hitboxes to cover Gunner's up b), but Gunner's variety of landing mixups (gundashing, reflector stalling, flame pillar, and lunar launch) and good size (gunner's weight is good for survivability, and Gunner's small frame makes him/her tough to jab lock) combined with the fact that Gunner can cover his/her recovery with a projectile makes Gunner's disadvantage state pretty good. Mii Gunner also has a situational combo breaker in reflector since it comes out on frame 3.
This is a video of ROM's Mii Gunner against a Pikachu player named Nitro. It shows the effectiveness of Mii Gunner's neutral against another character with a top-tier neutral.
Poopysandwich Poopysandwich , while the effectiveness of a character's neutral definitely depends on the matchup, the rankings are still a good way to determine the strengths and weaknesses of a character in competitive play.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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not to bash anyone but does this chart viable to use because every character's neutral game changes with different matchups.
Matchup-specific weaknesses and strengths aside, the rankings are judged based on the majority level of performance a character exhibits in regards to competitive play. This goes for all three of the states. Such as Sheik, who is widely regarded as having the best Neutral in the game currently.

Another example is Mario. Everyone knows that he has problems with disjoints. But despite this, his excellent frame data, solid mobility specs, projectile, and other tools such as Cape/FLUDD still grant him a strong Neutral game in regards to the larger sum of his matchups. And this sum is what is taken into account, and is converted into his ranking in Neutral.

The only time I could see specific matchups lowering a character's Neutral ranking in particular is if that character has an abysmally horrible time dealing with another character's Neutral, despite having a solid Neutral game otherwise. Basically, it has to be a type of matchup that would effectively cripple the character at high levels of play, even to the point where they could be deemed "unviable" in the current metagame. Stuff like that would definitely affect a character's ranking. Otherwise, it is simply based on the overall performance that character has competitively for that specific state.


Basically: Character specific matchups are still taken into account, but overall metagame power and relevance will hold far more weight to determine a character's ranking competitively.


In other news: I have a birthday happening on March 5th, so I am going to take a small break. But when I get back, I will be working on v0.2 for the Neutral Rankings.
 

HoSmash4

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Luigi neutral is really really good. Amazing jab, great projectile, great dash grab, fair, dair good anti-airs, upsmash useable in neutral, burst option in cyclone. His neutral is super good he just struggles to land, has to read for kills. In terms of pure ground game, luigi isnt beaten by many at all. Luigi suffocates characters in a corner extremely well.
 
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G. Stache

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Luigi neutral is really really good. Amazing jab, great projectile, great dash grab, fair, dair good anti-airs, upsmash useable in neutral, burst option in cyclone. His neutral is super good he just struggles to land, has to read for kills. In terms of pure ground game, luigi isnt beaten by many at all. Luigi suffocates characters in a corner extremely well.
Ermm, yes and no. Luigi's ground game is easily 5 stars...when he's close up. Closing in, while very overblown, is still a hassle. Hence why you see Luigi struggle a lot against the likes of Megaman and Toon Link. I think 3 stars is a good place for him. Lack of good overall mobility and range really keep him from becoming a huge threat in neutral. I don't quite see him on the same level of Mario, for instance. Another character that can be a threat once you're in his range, but is more suited to getting you in said range. Cyclone is good for burst movement, but only as a surprise mix up (or as a tool to slaughter Luma in that one MU). Much too laggy to use effectively in quick succession, since the opponent can punish you. I'll use retreating cyclone to land, however. Good for opponents who usually catch landing well, but don't have mobility to catch you (DDD/Link). Will agree that his smashes are some of the best in the game and are relatively safe to throw out. And obviously fireball is arguably one of Luigi's best tools in neutral. Notice that the only great thing Luigi has to give ranged pressure is fireball. If you have a way to efficiently stuff fireball and keep him out consistently (hello Megaman) his neutral suddenly becomes kinda really bad.

I disagree that he really has to read for kills when his edge guarding on most characters is very good. Cyclone gimping makes sure that, unless you have a top tier recovery, you're not making it back without a struggle. And fireballs can be aimed to kind of 'guide' the opponent into Luigi's U smash. But we can discuss that more on when we talk about his advantage state.
 

Coopwastaken

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I'd like to spark a discussion to talk about sonic's placement. I honestly feel like he should drop down 1, if not 2 tiers.

My reasoning for this is that the general sonic play in what we call the neutral is to get out of the neutral as fast as possible. This discussion is coming with the idea that we are no longer in the neutral once a hit has been landed and put them in hit stun or a combo has been started.

Think about what sonic is trying to accomplish when there is completely even footing, a solid 50/50. Sonic is so fast and can weave around opponents so stage control really doesn't phase him or come into the discussion ( bring this up because I think it eliminates another part of neutral). If you have every tried to attack sonic while he is spindashing towards you, you should know that if you hit him, you win in that scenario. You both don't get knocked back, you just straight up with. However, if you throw out a useless aerial and can't do anything for a couple frames, you know that sonic is going to be right up on you and start his combos without you being able to do anything.

With all of this in mind, Sonic is not a character that can freely approach whenever he wants. He can only shield his spindash if he hasn't started moving. Once he is making his way towards you and you aren't vunerable, all you have to do is throw out a hitbox because one of two situations will happen: 1) you hit him or 2) he turns the spindash around and everything is set back to normal. If you are playing sonic correctly, you are waiting for your opponent to make a mistake to punish them for it, otherwise you just take your time and wait things out. That is why sonic matches can take so long because good sonic's realize that they really need to play patient if they want to get hits in and not get hit.

Sonic is truly a bait and punish character. He does not space with aerials or safe ground attacks in neutral. He avoids the neutral that involves throwing out safe hitboxes because he doesn't have a safe hitbox. He is relying purely on the openings his opponents give him and his speed.


Also, a side discussion if anyone is up for it, why is fox two tiers higher than Meta Knight when they both only really have dash attack and dash grab as their "main" options? What causes such a huge difference?
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Neutral Rankings v0.2


As you can tell, I didn't really do much. I added Cloud, Corrin, Ryu, Toon Link, Robin, moved Luigi up one rank, and moved Ness below Mewtwo for now.


Besides the unranked characters (I'll go over the Miis and Lucario last), starting today, we will be doing something new. And that is suspect testing. Every now and then, I will provide a list of central characters for people to discuss how they compare with other characters in specific ranks in regards to the current state that the topic is talking about. You can still talk about almost anything you want to, but besides the characters that are currently listed as "Unranked", I want special attention to be given to the characters that I mention to help determine if they should stay/move up/move down in the rankings.


Here are the current suspect characters:

:4jigglypuff: Compare her Neutral with characters in Rank 1 and 1.5.

:4ganondorf: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 1.5 and lower (...aka Jigglypuff lol).

:4gaw: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 1.5 and 2

:4charizard: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 1.5 and 2

:4wario2: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 2.5.

:4metaknight: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 3 and higher.

:4ryu: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 3, 3.5, and 4.

:4pikachu: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 4 and lower.

:4fox: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 4.

:4sonic: Compare his Neutral with characters in Rank 4.


Those are the characters that I want looked at in more detail as of right now.
 
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FallofBrawl

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Ryu's neutral is good, but he is definitely susceptible to getting camped out.

As I said, Ryu can stop every approach in the game, but his approach game is a little too weak for his neutral to be 3.5, he should be at 3 (maybe even 2.5)

 
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TheGoodGuava

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Tbh I can see Tink moving up half a star. Toon Links projectiles let him force an approach, approach himself, gain stage control, and maintain stage control. He also has a few reliable pokes on shield and technically cannot be forced to approach unless its fox, megaman, or someones stalling which you should really be doing against Toon Link considering hes usually got the damage advantage
 

TheHypnotoad

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I think Jigglypuff and Ganondorf should switch places. At least Jigglypuff can use short hop airdodge to approach. Ganondorf has almost no safe approach options. Ganondorf is also way easier to wall out than Jigglypuff due to his slow speed both on the ground and in the air, massive size and abysmal jump height, and he can't really wall anyone else out for those same reasons, plus his super laggy attacks.
 
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adom4

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I think Jigglypuff and Ganondorf should switch places. At least Jigglypuff can use short hop airdodge to approach. Ganondorf has almost no safe approach options. Ganondorf is also way easier to wall out than Jigglypuff due to his slow speed both on the ground and in the air, massive size and abysmal jump height, and he can't really wall anyone else out for those same reasons, plus his super laggy attacks.
Ganondorf doesn't have hitboxes the size of a peanut, has a command grab & he doesn't get outspaced by every other character in the game.
 

TheHypnotoad

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Ganondorf doesn't have hitboxes the size of a peanut, has a command grab & he doesn't get outspaced by every other character in the game.
That's fair, but considering he has what I would say is the worst mobility in the game, I can't see him as having anything but the worst neutral.
 

lbrasz44

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That's fair, but considering he has what I would say is the worst mobility in the game, I can't see him as having anything but the worst neutral.
I agree with this sentiment. Ganandorf's mobility practically restricts whatever options he has in neutral that he is forced to react to whatever the opponent does, instead of the other way around. Him vs Bayonetta or Sheik in the neutral phase is practically the most one sided thing you could ever see in this game.
 

TheGoodGuava

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I agree with this sentiment. Ganandorf's mobility practically restricts whatever options he has in neutral that he is forced to react to whatever the opponent does, instead of the other way around. Him vs Bayonetta or Sheik in the neutral phase is practically the most one sided thing you could ever see in this game.
Bayonetta's neutral honestly isn't that great though, she has garbage mobility outside of a side b that I'm not sure why everyone is still getting hit by, a projectile that everyone but like bowser can just crawl under, high startup on most of her moves, shes easy as hell to outspace and camp, etc. I would rather use Diddy or Cloud
 

ARGHETH

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a projectile that everyone but like bowser can just crawl under
You realize that only 14 characters can crawl, right?
Bullet Climax is great for stuffing SH approaches.
I would rather use Diddy or Cloud
...considering they have two of the best neutrals in the game, that really isn't saying much.
 
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