Meta Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings

[ItsRainingGravy]

I will add the rules to this post eventually. But for now, refer to this post: Post #11, The Rules (temporary)


Current Neutral Rankings (v0.3)

Spoiler: Original Post

Going to do my best to try to revive this project. Was on a hiatus due to health issues, as well as visiting family for the holidays. Hopefully things will be a bit smoother this time around.

Anyways, the purpose of this topic is to grade each character in regards to their three primary states of a match: Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage. The intended reasoning behind this is that once we know how every character stacks up to eachother in regards to each of the three states, people can get a better idea not only in regards to a character's viability competitively, but also serve as a bit of an insight in regards to competitive character matchups. But before we do that, there are a couple of questions that I would like to ask everyone.



1) How should the ranking system be handled?

In my previous topic, stars (★☆✪) were used to represent a character's intended Rank. With ★★★★★ being the top rank, and ☆ being the bottom. While ✪ represented the best character for that particular state.

★ = 1 Star
☆ = 1/2 Star
✪ = The top threat for the state in question.

The reason why this was used is because it serves greatly as a visual aid. When going through posts, you can easily see these symbols, and immediately recognize what is being said about a particular character. However, some people would rather prefer using a numerical/alphabetical rating system. So there are few things I would like to ask about this in particular.

Should we keep the star ranking system? And if so, what should the maximum number of stars be? Should it still be ★★★★★ (5), or higher/lower? Additionally, should we rank the characters by comparison with the rest of the roster, or by their actual performance/threat level competitively? Basically the former would be listing characters by the placements themself, while the later would be listing characters by their actual supposed strength within that state. If we do the former, I feel as though raising the rankings to ★★★★★★ (6) stars would be better, as there is almost 60 characters in the roster (58 total). Though if it is the later, we can either keep it at 5 stars, or raise it.

Or, if we don't keep the star ranking system, how large should the numerical/alphabetical system be stretched to accommodate for the whole roster?

Discussions about this will determine the future of how ranks are handled in this topic in the future. I will choose whatever works best, or whatever is the most popular. Preferably both, but overall I will focus on performance over popularity.



2) How often should I post the results for the rankings? Weekly, monthly, or something else?

I want this topic to continue to progress at a smooth pace, without it becoming stagnant. Or the inverse, without rushing it. Therefore, what kind of pace do you think would work best? Should I post a state's results weekly, or monthly?



3) Is there anything else you would like for me to do/add?

I want to try to accommodate for everyone's opinions in regards to this, and do the best that I can to make this topic as professional as possible. So any suggestions/constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. If need be, you can PM me, and I will get to it eventually.



Anyways, I'll change the OP and add rules once we have a more concrete idea on what to do with the project. But for now, the last thing that I will add are the previous results for the Neutral and Advantage states. Also, we weren't able to get to the Disadvantage state, so that's why it's not there.

Spoiler: Neutral Rankings

( ✪ = )

★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:

Spoiler: Advantage Rankings

( ✪ = )

★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =


Not on the list:

If you are wondering why the Advantage Ranking looks kind of messy, it is because we were trying to filter the ranking by moving characters up/down to help make it look more polished.

Also, take note that all of this was judged before the previous patch, so characters could have gone up/down in any of the rankings.

Anyways, without further to do, let's start off by reworking on the foundation of how this topic will be handled in the future, before we start to build off of it again.

 

[Nobie]

Good to see this back! It was a fun thread to discuss and reveal how we think of these three concepts.

Stars are fine, though I'm not sure if it'd be better to go with a 5-star system or a 10-star/half-stars system. It just has to do with whether or not people are comfortable with certain characters "sharing" rankings.

I think that characters shouldn't be ranked based on a bell curve or anything like that, because I believe it gives kind of an inaccurate image of how a character does in a particular state. Let's say they're necessarily ranked as "1 star" in, say, neutral, even if they have a perfectly functioning neutral just because it's ever so slightly the worst in the game. That seems strange to me.

However, it might be useful to still compare them by, say, taking two characters and asking, "Who do you think wins the neutral in this matchup, and by how much?" If a character starts to be on the losing end of that conversation a few too many times, we might hazard a guess that their neutral is probably no better than 3 stars.

 

[HoSmash4]

Yeah most characters have a really good advantage but what holds people back are disdavantage and neutral.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah most characters have a really good advantage but what holds people back are disdavantage and neutral.

I think that's a common misconception. Most characters do not have a particularly strong advantaged state, it just often tends to come across that way because being in an advantaged position is pereived as something inherently positive. But just because it's always good to be in an advantaged position doesn't mean that everybody handles the advantaged position very well.

Likewise, just because being in the disadvantaged position is never a good thing doesn't mean that everybody sucks at it.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Good to see this back! It was a fun thread to discuss and reveal how we think of these three concepts.

Stars are fine, though I'm not sure if it'd be better to go with a 5-star system or a 10-star/half-stars system. It just has to do with whether or not people are comfortable with certain characters "sharing" rankings.

I think that characters shouldn't be ranked based on a bell curve or anything like that, because I believe it gives kind of an inaccurate image of how a character does in a particular state. Let's say they're necessarily ranked as "1 star" in, say, neutral, even if they have a perfectly functioning neutral just because it's ever so slightly the worst in the game. That seems strange to me.

However, it might be useful to still compare them by, say, taking two characters and asking, "Who do you think wins the neutral in this matchup, and by how much?" If a character starts to be on the losing end of that conversation a few too many times, we might hazard a guess that their neutral is probably no better than 3 stars.

Thanks! I greatly appreciate your feedback.

Hmm, alrighty. I am going to wait for a bit more opinions before we go back to discussing the three states, but if nobody seems opposed to the star system/doesn't feel strongly enough that it should change, we'll probably stick with the 5 star rating still. It seems to work well enough to judge the character's abilities in those respective states.

And yeah, that makes sense to me. So I am currently leaning more towards basing them on performance/threat level as opposed to placement/roster.

I think that's a common misconception. Most characters do not have a particularly strong advantaged state, it just often tends to come across that way because being in an advantaged position is perceived as something inherently positive. But just because it's always good to be in an advantaged position doesn't mean that everybody handles the advantaged position very well.

Likewise, just because being in the disadvantaged position is never a good thing doesn't mean that everybody sucks at it.

Indeed.

At the end of the day, even if every single character would have combos/strong kill moves, there are still huge gaps in regards to actual damage output and the amount of ease a particular character has going into a KO confirm/dealing damage.

It's less about the number of hits a character can do in one string, as opposed to how effectively, how safely, and how quickly they can take your stocks away compared to other characters. To me, that is how the advantage state should actually be judged.

Likewise, the inverse applies. It's less about how many hits/how much damage they can take (though this is still a huge factor) to reach the ideal percent that they can be KO'd, and more about how effectively they can avoid taking damage/being KO'd in the first place. How many escape options do they have to get out of bad positions (such as juggles), regain control, and keep their current stock while taking as little damage as possible?


It doesn't matter how strong you are if you struggle to land a hit/finish your opponent off, and it doesn't matter how much damage you can take if you have an Achilles heel that destroys your survivability regardless of how much bulk your character has otherwise. Such as Little Mac. Despite being able to live until around ~95-100%, just like ZSS, from an uncharged Mario Fsmash at the center of Final Destination(no rage or DI involved); his disadvantage state is still severely worse than her's due to his abysmal recovery and extremely poor aerials. Is his weight still a factor? Sure, because Mewtwo & Jigglypuff still die at silly percents. Is it everything? No. Multiple factors are involved in regards to the three states, and they should all be considered instead of being isolated in a vacuum.


In short, what actually matters is the stocks. How effectively you can take your opponent's away, and how effectively you can keep yours. Not the damage counter, or how many hits in a combo you can pull off. Because stocks are the sole determining factor that decide if you win a match or not. Barring a few rare exceptions (Sudden Death).

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Hmm, well then.

With there now being an official tier list posted by the BR, and with Corrin/Bayonetta and the new patch dropping soon, things look like they are going to be a bit busy for this week.

I'll wait until next Monday before this topic will officially start again. In the meantime, you can still post suggestions for this topic, before we get the show on the road.

 

[Radical Larry]

Hmm, well then.

With there now being an official tier list posted by the BR, and with Corrin/Bayonetta and the new patch dropping soon, things look like they are going to be a bit busy for this week.

I'll wait until next Monday before this topic will officially start again. In the meantime, you can still post suggestions for this topic, before we get the show on the road.

Hey, will there be anything like MU Charts here? I'm curious.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Hey, will there be anything like MU Charts here? I'm curious.

Not likely. There is another thread already dedicated to that in Competitive Discussions.

However, character matchups can still be discussed here, since the focus of this thread is comparing the performance of all of the characters three states. However, it has to revolve around "Character X's A/N/D can overcome or is better than Character Y'S A/N/D", where "A/N/D" are the Advantage, Neutral, and Disadvantage states.

As opposed to a simple "Character X beats Character Y", which isn't the primary focus/goal of this thread.

 

[Kese]

Hmmm are you going to post a disadvantage state rankings list as well? Just wondering

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Hmmm are you going to post a disadvantage state rankings list as well? Just wondering

Eventually yes, once a good amount of discussion has taken place, and we've ironed-out the Neutral and Advantage rankings to make them look a lot more polished. Then, the discussion will shift to determining how the Disadvantage ranking should look, which as of right now doesn't exist. And once all three have been worked on to a fair extent, a new list will be created that goes over all of the characters "competitive stats". Which would look like this:


(Character)
Neutral: ★★★
Advantage: ★★★
Disadvantage: ★★★


Once that is done, we can potentially use these stats to get a deeper look into how character matchups play out/can potentially play out, which may help future tier lists later down the line. Or, it can be used for a number of other things. Of course, discussion won't end once we cover all three states. It will keep going, and be further edited based upon new patch releases/further advancements to the competitive meta.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Now that the patch notes are settling down, and everyone has had a chance to try out the new characters and other changes, this topic officially starts now. I'll change the OP when I have time, but our first order of business will be working on the Neutral Rankings again.



Current Neutral Rankings:

( ✪ = )

★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:



For those of you who are new to this topic, the rules are fairly simple.

1) Use intelligent discussion to determine where the characters rank in each respective state. Use data (frame data/tournament results/matchup data/etc) to help validate your opinions. You can also compare one character's state with another's. Such as Sheik having a better Neutral State than Jigglypuff's.

2) When wanting a character to move up/down in a category, do take note that you are not only comparing that character based on everyone else in that rank, but that character relative to every other character's performance in regards to the state in question as a whole. In other words, try to not say things on a whim. State your reasons why a character should be higher/lower, but only if you REALLY feel as though that they deserve it. And that you have enough reasoning to support your opinions.

3) This is NOT a place to discuss what buffs/nerfs characters should theoretically have. Or to flame people. Or anything else that would derail the topic. Granted, I am a very lenient person, so I won't mind too much as long as it isn't outright flaming. However, try to be respectful for this topic's goal, and help it continue at a steady pace that doesn't distract other posters. Thank you.

4) Until we have the initial process of finishing all of the states by satisfying most qualms/adding every character, I will be doing updates every weekend to the state we are working on in particular. Once I feel as though enough discussion/changes have been made to a particular state, we'll move on to the next state, and continue the weekly process. However, as soon as we are "done" with all three states, I'll open up discussion for all three states at once, and then the topic will utilize monthly updates instead. Maybe even longer than that, I am not sure yet. But basically, we're in the "beta stage" of the topic right now. But once that is out of the way, the character stats can be seen as more "official" in nature. But it'll be some time before we actually get to that point.

5) In other words, if you feel as though a character is too high/low on the list, try not to worry about it too much. The ranks will change over time, and that gives everyone plenty of time to try to figure things out. But even after this happens, and you still aren't satisfied, I still recommend that you shouldn't worry. The goal of this topic isn't to try to dissuade anyone from the characters that they like playing. Rather, the goal of this topic is to judge every characters three states at the competitive level. And then to use said data to determine how matchups can be better played out (theoretically), and to help get an even closer look at character strengths and weaknesses.



Posting may begin now.

 

[NegaNixx]

I push that we start over from scratch instead of using what we already had, I don't see the harm in it and I see a few placements that look a bit awkward in retrospect.

At any rate...

Dark Pit's Neutral is of course similar to Pit's. Both have stellar mid range games with solid Out of Dash options in Dash Attack which is a great Disjointed Fast move, and always great for pressure and his Dash Grab which sets up either his Combos off of D-Throw, Edge Guarding off of B-Throw and Kills at higher Percents off of F-Throw.

At Long range his arrows are marginally less effective than Pit's out of a short hop but are still effective due to the height of his jump and relative height of his opponent, it serves as a way to force approaches at the very least while his Orbitars deny the opponent the same ability.

At Short Range, he can space characters out with F-Air, gain stage positioning with D-Air, as safe options. And his Jab's gentleman variant is a good get off me option as well as setting up stage positioning.

Overall he's a character with a solid neutral, with the ability to space safely and force approaches (though slightly worse than his mirror). His variety of safe options and the ability to easily set up or condition opponents puts him at above average.

I'd rate him at a 3.5/5

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I push that we start over from scratch instead of using what we already had, I don't see the harm in it and I see a few placements that look a bit awkward in retrospect.

At any rate...

Dark Pit's Neutral is of course similar to Pit's. Both have stellar mid range games with solid Out of Dash options in Dash Attack which is a great Disjointed Fast move, and always great for pressure and his Dash Grab which sets up either his Combos off of D-Throw, Edge Guarding off of B-Throw and Kills at higher Percents off of F-Throw.

At Long range his arrows are marginally less effective than Pit's out of a short hop but are still effective due to the height of his jump and relative height of his opponent, it serves as a way to force approaches at the very least while his Orbitars deny the opponent the same ability.

At Short Range, he can space characters out with F-Air, gain stage positioning with D-Air, as safe options. And his Jab's gentleman variant is a good get off me option as well as setting up stage positioning.

Overall he's a character with a solid neutral, with the ability to space safely and force approaches (though slightly worse than his mirror). His variety of safe options and the ability to easily set up or condition opponents puts him at above average.

I'd rate him at a 3.5/5

Hmm...I'll wait on what other people have to say before starting everything from scratch.

However, for those of you who are new to this topic, this is the kind of post that I am looking for in this topic.

Well done, NegaNixx.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think there are too many ★★★★ ratings and over-average ratings for neutral position actually. The majority of the cast should be placed between ★★☆ and ★★★☆, probably at least 2/3rds of it to be honest. You could probably dump the whole ★★★★ crew minus Little Mac down by half a step and it'd still be pretty accurate.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I think there are too many ★★★★ ratings and over-average ratings for neutral position actually. The majority of the cast should be placed between ★★☆ and ★★★☆, probably at least 2/3rds of it to be honest. You could probably dump the whole ★★★★ crew minus Little Mac down by half a step and it'd still be pretty accurate.

While I agree that there are too many 4 star neutrals, your idea to bump down everyone in 4 star except for Little Mac would be a bad idea. The first problem with that solution is that we should rank the characters that are still unranked in their neutral games before considering your idea. The second issue is that Little Mac's neutral isn't the best in the 4 star range. Mii Gunner definitely has a better neutral than Little Mac because Gunner has more range than Little Mac while still staying safe (This is also one of the main reasons why Gunner beats Little Mac head to head). Also, Gunner is better at forcing other characters to approach than Little Mac. I would also argue that Olimar and Duck Hunt are a little better in the neutral than Little Mac for the same reasons (Little Mac's mobility and frame data makes it a closer call between these two characters and Little Mac).

I think that it would be a good idea to start from scratch since some of characters have gotten some changes that will make them better in each category.

 

[Yonder]

Why does M2 have a 2 for neutral? Shadow ball, reflector, and long ranged attacks along with fast movement speed makes him around a 3 or 4, he can really force approaches

 

[Routa]

Are Miis Guest 1111, Guest XXXX or Any size XXXX? I agree on Guest 1111 Swordfighter having below average neutral, but just giving Chakram is enough to raise his neutral on the same lvl as Luigi.

 

[G. Stache]

Why does M2 have a 2 for neutral? Shadow ball, reflector, and long ranged attacks along with fast movement speed makes him around a 3 or 4, he can really force approaches

Because people don't want to admit that Mewtwo has stuff going for him (also these ratings were done pre patch iirc, where M2 stigma was crazy). His neutral is at least 3 stars, I agree. Also, how good would we say Cloud's neutral is? I'm inclined to say at least 4 stars, but I've been wrong before.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Bayonetta's neutral seems underwhelming. She can't camp effectively except against the most rushdown-y of rushdown characters, and her approach options are also kind of lacking. I don't think any of her aerials are safe on shield, and she gets essentially nothing off of grab (not to mention having Robin-tier grab range), so opponents have little to fear by sitting in shield. Side B, which is her main combo starter, is horribly unsafe on shield. She does have pseudo-Falco lasers, but they don't have much range and will almost never hit grounded opponents. And she has pseudo-Fox lasers as well, but they leave her wide open for a punish. I would give her neutral 2 stars at most, possibly 1.5.

Also, the current rankings are super inflated. A ton of characters need to be moved down. For example, I can't see Meta Knight or Roy having anything above 2.5 stars for neutral; neither of them have "above average" neutrals. The rankings should be able to be modeled by a normal distribution, with the mean/median being 2.5. (This would also require at least one character being ranked as 0 stars for neutral, which would need to be clarified as just being really bad, not literally having no neutral at all.) And sure, we haven't ranked every character yet, but we have ranked most of them, and the distribution should not be this lopsided.

Also also, I think that Ganondorf has the worst neutral in the game, even worse than Puff.

 

[Tayman]

Yeah Wario's neutral is horrible the only thing saving us is waft charge we should be way lower on the neutral tier list

 

[Nobie]

Why does M2 have a 2 for neutral? Shadow ball, reflector, and long ranged attacks along with fast movement speed makes him around a 3 or 4, he can really force approaches

It's really because this was pre-patch Mewtwo, and his average ground movement speed actually did limit the overall effectiveness of his neutral. I would have put it around 3 at the time, no more, mainly because he could get so wrecked by strong rushdown.

NOW, however, with the movement speed buffs and the changes to landing lag AND the stronger fair AND EVERYTHING ELSE, Mewtwo's neutral has turned monstrous. He still has some trouble against rushdown but post-patch Mewtwo is a different beast.

In fact, if I had to rate him now, I would say:

Neutral: ★★★★
Advantage: ★★★★
Disadvantage: ★★☆

 

[Djmarcus44]

It's really because this was pre-patch Mewtwo, and his average ground movement speed actually did limit the overall effectiveness of his neutral. I would have put it around 3 at the time, no more, mainly because he could get so wrecked by strong rushdown.

NOW, however, with the movement speed buffs and the changes to landing lag AND the stronger fair AND EVERYTHING ELSE, Mewtwo's neutral has turned monstrous. He still has some trouble against rushdown but post-patch Mewtwo is a different beast.

In fact, if I had to rate him now, I would say:

Neutral: ★★★★
Advantage: ★★★★
Disadvantage: ★★☆

Mewtwo's frame (somewhat large hurtbox and very light weight) and lack of a combo breaker warrant a lower ranking in the disadvantage state. While Mewtwo has a pretty good recovery and some decent landing mixups, Mewtwo has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game because of the fact that it is easy to hit, combo, and kill Mewtwo.

ItsRainingGravy , My current ratings for Mii Gunner:
Neutral: 4.5/5 stars
Advantage: 2/5 stars
Disadvantage: 3.5/5 stars

Gunner has one of the best neutrals in the game due to the range and safety of fair and the variety of good tools that are around it. Gunner forces most of the cast to approach and stops it easily. Also Gunner has a very good approach with shorthop fair along with a good dash into shield. Gunner also has amazing burst mobility due to gundashing.

Mii Gunner lacks a reliable kill confirm and the character has low damage output. On the other hand Gunner has a good amount of combos and follow ups in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread, and Gunner is great at juggling and edgeguarding. Gunner also has decently fast killing options and jab canceled smashes to mitigate his/her killing issues.

Mii Gunner's recovery isn't that good (there are no hitboxes to cover Gunner's up b), but Gunner's variety of landing mixups (gundashing, reflector stalling, flame pillar, and lunar launch) and good size (gunner's weight is good for survivability, and Gunner's small frame makes him/her tough to jab lock). Mii Gunner also has a situational combo breaker in reflector since it comes out on frame 3.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo's frame (somewhat large hurtbox and very light weight) and lack of a combo breaker warrant a lower ranking in the disadvantage state. While Mewtwo has a pretty good recovery and some decent landing mixups, Mewtwo has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game because of the fact that it is easy to hit, combo, and kill Mewtwo.

ItsRainingGravy , My current ratings for Mii Gunner:
Neutral: 4.5/5 stars
Advantage: 2/5 stars
Disadvantage: 3.5/5 stars

Gunner has one of the best neutrals in the game due to the range and safety of fair and the variety of good tools that are around it. Gunner forces most of the cast to approach and stops it easily. Also Gunner has a very good approach with shorthop fair along with a good dash into shield. Gunner also has amazing burst mobility due to gundashing.

Mii Gunner lacks a reliable kill confirm and the character has low damage output. On the other hand Gunner has a good amount of combos and follow ups in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread, and Gunner is great at juggling and edgeguarding. Gunner also has decently fast killing options and jab canceled smashes to mitigate his/her killing issues.

Mii Gunner's recovery isn't that good (there are no hitboxes to cover Gunner's up b), but Gunner's variety of landing mixups (gundashing, reflector stalling, flame pillar, and lunar launch) and good size (gunner's weight is good for survivability, and Gunner's small frame makes him/her tough to jab lock). Mii Gunner also has a situational combo breaker in reflector since it comes out on frame 3.

I'm not against downgrading Mewtwo's disadvantage. Too many movement options to be a 1, too light to be a 3. 1.5 or 2 would be okay.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Sorry for the delay. Back now. Was busy with a GameFAQs project that is now sticky'd there.

Are Miis Guest 1111, Guest XXXX or Any size XXXX? I agree on Guest 1111 Swordfighter having below average neutral, but just giving Chakram is enough to raise his neutral on the same lvl as Luigi.

A good question to ask. I might remove the Miis for now until the community has a better understanding on what to do with them. Or, I could make two separate rankings for them. One for their default weight and specials. And the other for full customizations.


Anyways, I think that what I might do is remove characters that have been heavily buffed in the recent two (?) patches, and then leave everyone else where they are currently at right now. I still want to have a solid foundation to work off of, but at the same time, I understand people's desires to start from scratch due to the shifts in the meta game/character strengths being raised and lowered. Does this sound like a good compromise for everyone?

And then we'll work on organizing the characters from there~

 

[Yonder]

I'm not against downgrading Mewtwo's disadvantage. Too many movement options to be a 1, too light to be a 3. 1.5 or 2 would be okay.

I would say 2, if only because he has the best air dodge in the game, being a frame faster ending than anyone else. Teleport helps too and confusion to delay falling But he's not super fast in the air, big, and lacks an amazing landing tool (nair is just eh) so 2/4 seems ok imo.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Anyways, I think that what I might do is remove characters that have been heavily buffed in the recent two (?) patches, and then leave everyone else where they are currently at right now. I still want to have a solid foundation to work off of, but at the same time, I understand people's desires to start from scratch due to the shifts in the meta game/character strengths being raised and lowered. Does this sound like a good compromise for everyone?

And then we'll work on organizing the characters from there~

So would you rather put all the characters in tiers/star levels first? Because if so, you need to make sure that the distribution can be modeled as a normal distribution. You can't just stick every character in 4 stars because all the low-tier mains have delusionally convinced themselves that their character is actually good.

 

[Pancracio17]

Bayonetta has fantastic advantage state and a fantastic disadvantage state imo, her super powerfull combos of course give her a good advantage and her burst mobility and witch time give her a way to escape combos.
I have no word on neutral yet.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

So would you rather put all the characters in tiers/star levels first? Because if so, you need to make sure that the distribution can be modeled as a normal distribution. You can't just stick every character in 4 stars because all the low-tier mains have delusionally convinced themselves that their character is actually good.

To be honest, I actually have very little personal opinions on the list that we currently have now. Though I do see where you are coming from. I just try to keep my opinions out as much as possible, since I don't want the list to be biased with my preferences. I just move characters up/down based on the overall opinions of others in these topics, so I usually just go off of the information/opinions that people provide here to "correct" the lists. Or make them more accurate.

However, since you mentioned the 4 Star characters, I'll try my best to offer some quick opinions about them:


I feel as though he can move down. His mobility and frame data don't really supplement his projectiles all that well in the neutral. And even then, more agile characters have less issues dealing with the projectile tools that he has. The disk is unreliable, the gunmen are easy to dispatch of and take some time before they fire, and the can has a slow traveling speed barring his ability to hit it with normals. But if he does that, and misses, he loses space and can even be punished in the process. Out of the 4 Star Neutrals, he sticks out to me the most as probably warranting a lower placement on the list.

I feel as though he can drop, too. He has aerial mobility, Chomp for punishing shields, and Waft to occasionally make people want to finish him off ASAP, but he lacks the range and frame data to consistently keep people out. And although his aerials certainly help out, I do wonder about his ability to pressure shields on the ground safely. Granted, I don't have much experience to evaluate this properly, so I'll let someone else cover that for me.


Those are the only immediate thoughts that I have right now. But I'll take your words into consideration, and try to prevent the stats from being overly-inflated. I just don't wish to put priority on my opinion's above everyone else's, since I wish to remain a mostly neutral party when looking at/handling these rankings.

 

[Nobie]

I don't think Duck Hunt's Neutral is too bad, 3.5 at worst, because at the end of the day his zoning game is still strong and is combined with good mobility specs + some of the best dodges in the game. This also means that, aside from a bad recovery, his disadvantage shouldn't be too bad either. From what I've seen from Duck Hunt players, it's his advantage where he falters, being unable to close out stocks consistently.

I also just can't picture Mega Man as having a mere 3.5 in neutral. Sure, he suffers against Sheik but I believe her and maybe Mario are the only ones he struggles at all against in neutral. Every other character in the game, even Sonic and Falcon and a whole gang of swordsmen, are susceptible to Mega Man's unique brand of keepaway, and for some in particular it can be the most trying matchup possible (Samus, Villager, etc.). Mega Man often out-zones other zoners, does decently against most of the cast in neutral, and just has a few weak points. I understand that it lacks versatility which is why 3.5 is so tempting, but I believe it to be a remarkably effective game plan against the majority of the cast, if we're judging purely on neutral and not ability to close out stocks.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I don't think Duck Hunt's Neutral is too bad, 3.5 at worst, because at the end of the day his zoning game is still strong and is combined with good mobility specs + some of the best dodges in the game. This also means that, aside from a bad recovery, his disadvantage shouldn't be too bad either. From what I've seen from Duck Hunt players, it's his advantage where he falters, being unable to close out stocks consistently.

I also just can't picture Mega Man as having a mere 3.5 in neutral. Sure, he suffers against Sheik but I believe her and maybe Mario are the only ones he struggles at all against in neutral. Every other character in the game, even Sonic and Falcon and a whole gang of swordsmen, are susceptible to Mega Man's unique brand of keepaway, and for some in particular it can be the most trying matchup possible (Samus, Villager, etc.). Mega Man often out-zones other zoners, does decently against most of the cast in neutral, and just has a few weak points. I understand that it lacks versatility which is why 3.5 is so tempting, but I believe it to be a remarkably effective game plan against the majority of the cast, if we're judging purely on neutral and not ability to close out stocks.

Yeah, 3.5 is where I would put him. I don't see him as a 4, but his Neutral is still solid enough. It's mostly his normals that weigh him down. Because other characters in rank 4 either have a more balanced kit of neutral tools (Greninja), have vastly superior footsies and mobility (Little Mac/ZSS), have other tricks/qualities to help cover their weaknesses (Mario's specials and frame data), or just have a superior means of dealing damage at a range (specifically Olimar).

Where-as with DHD, you have a character that possesses good projectiles with unfortunate weaknesses behind them, and poor normals that not only don't do much to pressure the opponent, but also can't keep DHD safe once they do manage to get in. And DHD's mobility, while not bad, lacks the amount of speed most other 4 Star Ranks have (in one way or another). On the plus side though, he has great dodges, and he has three different projectiles for opponents to deal with, making his zoning game varied. But overall, I feel as though it lacks the same sharpness in quality that the other characters in the rank possess, especially because he has to rely on those tools more than they do. So, he would drop, but not by much.

One last thing I would like to mention about DHD is that, unlike most of the other characters in rank 4, he doesn't have any smash attacks that he can reliably throw out in the neutral. This should come as no surprise, as DHD's smashes are pretty unappealing in general, but it's another weaknesses of his to take into consideration by comparison.


As for Mega Man, yeah, his Neutral is good. Better than DHD's. I could see them swapping places in the future. So I am curious to see what other people's opinions are about this.

 

[outfoxd]

Yeah, 3.5 is where I would put him. I don't see him as a 4, but his Neutral is still solid enough. It's mostly his normals that weigh him down. Because other characters in rank 4 either have a more balanced kit of neutral tools (Greninja), have vastly superior footsies and mobility (Little Mac/ZSS), have other tricks/qualities to help cover their weaknesses (Mario's specials and frame data), or just have a superior means of dealing damage at a range (specifically Olimar).

Where-as with DHD, you have a character that possesses good projectiles with unfortunate weaknesses behind them, and poor normals that not only don't do much to pressure the opponent, but also can't keep DHD safe once they do manage to get in. And DHD's mobility, while not bad, lacks the amount of speed most other 4 Star Ranks have (in one way or another). On the plus side though, he has great dodges, and he has three different projectiles for opponents to deal with, making his zoning game varied. But overall, I feel as though it lacks the same sharpness in quality that the other characters in the rank possess, especially because he has to rely on those tools more than they do. So, he would drop, but not by much.

One last thing I would like to mention about DHD is that, unlike most of the other characters in rank 4, he doesn't have any smash attacks that he can reliably throw out in the neutral. This should come as no surprise, as DHD's smashes are pretty unappealing in general, but it's another weaknesses of his to take into consideration by comparison.


As for Mega Man, yeah, his Neutral is good. Better than DHD's. I could see them swapping places in the future. So I am curious to see what other people's opinions are about this.

I agree with a 3.5 neutral for DH but i would like to note that part of his advantage in neutral comes from passively controlling space. All of his projectiles can stick around for time and let him move around while they impose mild threats while he himself can control more stage. Since his advantage blows and his disadvantage ain't great the only way I've managed to beat better characters is by controlling large swathes of stage and constantly outputting damage in exchanges. That and retaking position with his (Thank sakurai) good grab.

It's weird. Sometimes you're almost daring someone to swing on your lag so a gunmen will shoot them or you can bump a can on them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Spoiler: Neutral State

This looks cute and should totally be a thing. It also contains my very subjective opinion whih is extremely important for all the world to know.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Spoiler: Neutral State

This looks cute and should totally be a thing. It also contains my very subjective opinion whih is extremely important for all the world to know.

ohwowwhydidntithinkaboutthat

Gonna use this to post the rankings from now on!

That being said, people should still write detailed explanations on why they put the characters where they are, and not just rely on the pretty graphs alone to validate their opinions. (Just saying this as a precaution)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If want me to specifically explain the rankings of certain characters feel free to ask. Pretty sure some of those are wrong though. Like, Link is definitely better than ** in neutral.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Spoiler: Neutral State

This looks cute and should totally be a thing. It also contains my very subjective opinion whih is extremely important for all the world to know.

Pretty good. I would personally put Ganondorf at the bottom, but whatever.

Robin's neutral is exceedingly average. He can space aerials on shield safely, but he also has a rough time punishing opponents for spacing aerials on his own shield. He can get up in your face and apply lots of pressure, but he also struggles when opponents get up in his face and apply pressure. He can camp out opponents, but he can also get camped out by opponents. Considering you put the average as three stars, I would put Robin in three stars as well.

Bayonetta's neutral is below average. She lacks safe approach options and has a rough time pressuring shields. She's fairly easy to camp out, and she herself can only camp against a handful of characters. I would say two stars.

The other characters I don't know enough about.

 

[lbrasz44]

I feel as though he can drop, too. He has aerial mobility, Chomp for punishing shields, and Waft to occasionally make people want to finish him off ASAP, but he lacks the range and frame data to consistently keep people out. And although his aerials certainly help out, I do wonder about his ability to pressure shields on the ground safely. Granted, I don't have much experience to evaluate this properly, so I'll let someone else cover that for me.

I agree that Wario should move down a tad in neutral but I would say only to 3 or 3.5 stars. You mentioned chomp and waft already, but bike is also a somewhat useful tool in approaching or punishing a misplaced attack as well -only for certain matchups however and definitely not against the likes of sheik or ness where they can knock him off with quick aerials and projectiles.

Fair is a great tool in his aerials as well as it does actually work in keeping people out due to its lasting hitbox and overall quickness. Combined with his air speed its a great tool for poking the opponent to keep them honest. Not to mention that his dtilt also serves the same purpose in poking, but on the ground instead. It also sets ups grabs, dash, nair or fair due to its quick frames and popping the opponent a bit up.

As for pressuring shields, Wario's should always be going for the chomp anyways for the free damage but I do agree that there is some difficulty getting through by other means. Having what I would say is the one of the best command grabs if not the best mitigates this issue however, but it's still an issue nonetheless.

Last thing, it isn't too likely that a Wario should try landing this as its rather unsafe on shield-so this is more of a fun fact- but a late dash attack guarantees a trip, which is always a good thing in starting and maintaining an advantage.

Wario shines as a defensive character where he keeps the opponent out with great poking tools while punishing misplaced attacks. He's great in staying away from the disadvantage, and he's fairly content with that as his ability to move into the advantage is somewhat limited in the beginning so I'd say 3 or 3.5 stars is fair enough.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

If want me to specifically explain the rankings of certain characters feel free to ask. Pretty sure some of those are wrong though. Like, Link is definitely better than ** in neutral.

This is gonna be a lot, but: Kirby, Link, Bowser Jr, Falco, Mewtwo, Luigi, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Ness, ZSS, DHD, Little Mac, and lastly Diddy.

Forgive me, but I like to pry for information.

Nice list, btw.


Currently, I am working on reorganizing the Neutral State. So everyone should expect the OP to change soon. But I am going to wait for a few more posts before I post something myself.

 

[san.]

Spoiler: Neutral State

This looks cute and should totally be a thing. It also contains my very subjective opinion whih is extremely important for all the world to know.

Nice. I've always thought Ike was 3, but then there were a bunch of characters I felt were similar at 3.5. This puts him in the right place.

 

[Browny]

Spoiler: Neutral State

This looks cute and should totally be a thing. It also contains my very subjective opinion whih is extremely important for all the world to know.

Megaman is criminally low considering his sheer projectile spam, and marth being 13 spaces higher than lucina? Being 1-2 frames safer on a tipper fair hardly makes that big of a difference.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'm gonna have to agree that Marth being that much higher than Lucina makes no sense.