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Farore's Wind gets Zelda out of way too much stuff, both onstage and off, for her to have anything less than a 3 star disadvantage state.
Her landing options do indeed suck though. She really struggles to land against an opponent who simply waits for her on the ground. Kinda balances out the nonsense Farore's is capable of to give her an average disadvantage state IMO, for which 3 stars is fine.
I think 4 is a bit overstated for Palutena. She can get out of situations pretty handy with Warp and she's got the quick f-air and invincible b-air, but her on-stage options consist of Warp, jab and maybe dash attack. Counter is worthless. A good opponent can read her Warp and punish her during the endlag phase.
Recovery's good, but I don't think she has much in the way of resets to neutral beyond that. I'd be interested in hearing your own reason for it, if you don't mind?
EDIT: Plus she has poor landing options, especially considering d-air is damn near unviable for everything except a coy spike. A good opponent will just wait for her to Warp and punish at their own discretion.
Does disadvantage include being hard to kill, ie. weight? If so then I'm not sure Jiggs is 4 star; although her recovery is amazing and she wiggles out of combos, she dies super early compared to a lot of the cast.
Weight is also the only significant thing stopping MK from being 4.5 to 5 stars disadvantage imo. 6 jumps and a teleport for escaping traps and juggles, excellent recovery and offstage game, but he's fairly light (9th lightest in the game).
Not gonna lie, I think teleports are pretty busted overall and that is more or less why I feel MK, Palutena and Zelda are strong at disadvantage. But if the mains of those characters call for lower rankings then I feel no need to disagree. MK I think just gets out of so much stuff easily. He always has an answer. Who can take advantage of his weight consistently? Diddy, Luigi, Ryu, ZSS annnnnnddd?
IDK mang. We gotta think about matches too. The characters that can kill consistently with set-ups/confirms and how many there are will greatly effect MK's disadvantage rating.
Weight is kinda mitigated if its super easy to combo you and bring you to very high percents in the first place and you are bad at getting out of traps which leads to death mix-up scenarios.
The only characters I see having amazing Disadvantaged State are Sheik, Sonic, ZSS, Rosalina, Pikachu and Villager.
Among the worst would be Little Mac, DDD, Doctor Mario, and Charizard.
Weight is kinda mitigated if its super easy to combo you and bring you to very high percents in the first place and you are bad at getting out of traps which leads to death mix-up scenarios.
The only characters I see having amazing Disadvantaged State are Sheik, Sonic, ZSS, Rosalina, Pikachu and Villager.
Among the worst would be Little Mac, DDD, Doctor Mario, and Charizard.
I would give Dr. Mario like, 2 stars disadvantage. It's pretty bad. Among the worst relatively? Yeah. But I save 1 star for stuff like Bowser (can't land period), D3, Captain Falcon, etc.
Doc has a few landing options and they can work, but he's bad at weaving around in disadvantage (i.e. falling down easily) compared to most of the cast. It's probably his worst position and why he's noticably worse than Mario IMO.
MK is the 13th fastest faller which means he can be combo'd pretty easily by most people's stuff; his hurtbox isn't especially small either. True combos are easy on him but strings are hard. As well as being able to just jump out of juggles etc, Dair is frame 4 and can be a decent string breaker because of disjoint and its nice wide hitbox.
I'd rate MK's disadvantage at ★★★★ overall. He has answers for a lot of things but his fall speed and light weight let him down somewhat.
While I'm here I'll rate Fox's at ★★. He has a frame 4 Nair for breaking strings, and he isn't bad at landing. However, he is even lighter than MK, and is the fastest faller which means combos work on him that don't work for a lot of the cast (some common combos also don't work on him at low %s but the former is more significant I think). In a game of great recoveries, his is rather linear and is quite punishable as well. His awesome neutral and advantage states are what make him top tier.
I'd also rate DK's at about ★. Huge hurtbox, terrible landing options, bad vertical recovery. He's one of the heaviest fighters though, he has good aerials and has really good horizontal recovery which probably counts for something... just about stops him from being the worst of the worst (probably Bowser and/or Little Mac). Thoughts?
EDIT:
Characters who I know have reliable ways to kill off the top blast zone:
At least 18 characters can take advantage of the enemy being light, 12 of whom are definitely relevant, so I would say it's significant.
Jigglypuff does not have 4 stars in disadvantaged state. Sure, she can escape combos, but she falls extremely slowly and has no good landing options except airdodging an opponent's aerial, and if your opponent just waits for you on the ground, you have very few options to get back down safely.
Jigglypuff does not have 4 stars in disadvantaged state. Sure, she can escape combos, but she falls extremely slowly and has no good landing options except airdodging an opponent's aerial, and if your opponent just waits for you on the ground, you have very few options to get back down safely.
Anyone with a good close ranged edgeguard game can edgeguard villager, the usually won't kill but will put villager is such a huge disadvantage that i can say that recovery s better for villager's advantage rather than disadvantage. Villager's ability to get out of traps is probably hat makes her a 4 star disadvantage
Bomb drop alone instantly pushes it outside of that range. The hitbox activates within ~13-14 frames, drops below you, it's B-reversible, and you can still control your aerial momentum.
Bomb drop alone instantly pushes it outside of that range. The hitbox activates within ~13-14 frames, drops below you, it's B-reversible, and you can still control your aerial momentum.
Been awhile since I last posted here. Had a couple of IRL things to take care of. The first being me in the hospital due to stomach problems (I'm fine now), and the second being my girlfriend and I trying to buy a house for us to live together in.
ANYWHO, BACK TO BUSINESS~
Before we move on to the DISADVANTAGE state, despite there being a fair amount of interest in discussing it recently, we need to finish up how the ADVANTAGE state looks (for now). Since it currently looks a bit lopsided. So we're going to do something similar to what @Pazx suggested, but not quite~
We are going to work on every character below the dotted line. The placements of the characters is mostly the same as before, though it is spread out now. This way, we can start working on which characters would fill the gaps. Essentially, who should move up? Who should stay put? And who should move down?
As a small but important note, characters moving up/down is not limited to the Substitute icons one place above or below their currently placed Rank. Every Rank below the line right now is not set in stone, and is merely just a placeholder for now. Rather, the list is organized in this way to be mentally stimulating visually, to help people have a more solid idea on if a character should stay/move up/move down relative to where they are currently placed.
Everyone's thoughts in regards to the DISADVANTAGEstate has been looked over, and will be implimented once we get this out of the way.
I don't think Pit's advantage is that bad. He's got solid followups from his throws (d-throw is the best example, but he can get some decent chases going on with rage-free f-throw and b-throw) and can followup off-stage with good strings; that said, he doesn't really have the kind of weaponry that makes the opponent fear the disadvantage (his best kill moves, i.e. f-smash, f-throw and side-b, need to connect from footsies rather than with the confirm; u-throw is the exception, since u-smash is kinda designed to be used when he gets the confirm) and it's very easy for the opponent to reset to neutral.
I don't think it's incredible, but I think it's very solid for what it is. Three-star is fair in my opinion.
Little Mac at 1? Utilt juggles and dtilt kill confirms are quite good. Otherwise yeah, he's not really going to vertically chase, though landing pressure is still great.
Gunner's 1.5 at least, going higher as you decrease the size. 1.5 is fine for now.
Yoshi's disadvantage is really good. His nair obviously is super good at combo breaking, his super armor DJ escapes combos, he can use his air speed to escape from bad situations, his jab can break some ground combos, he plays on the ledge really well with eggs and his big DJ into several options (including command grab), and his recovery imo is reasonably hard to gimp. So basically he's one of the hardest characters to combo (like top three in this), and doesn't struggle too much with lack of stage control.
Edit: whoops didn't see the post that said we were only talking about advantage. I'll just leave this post for future discussion
I would prefer for this thread not to die, because it's quite interesting. I would have contributed to this filtering phase already but all three characters I definitely know enough about to contribute are all above the dotted line (says something about me probably ). I'll give my thoughts on a few things tho.
should be higher as san said, his landing coverage is really good and he has setups into the infamous KO Punch among other things. Also if an opponent misses a tech and Mac is positioned correctly he can lock them with an aerial and then they will eat a massive hit. I think ★☆ at least, maybe ★★.
should be higher, he has all sorts of combos, excellent edgeguarding and also has a reliable kill setup. ★★★☆ at least. (Also why is he in both 2 and 3 stars? )
should be higher as well, at least ★★☆ for his awesome low % combos.
should be lower I think. Unless someone can explain to me how she is above average.
They're probably at 4 stars or right under it. Multiple jumps, Orbitars for a fairly safe descent (but probably leads to getting up from the ledge, very MU dependent on how bad this is), good raw distance with up B, option to armor through edge guards with side B, and at the least disjoints to throw out to defend themselves when falling.
Edit:
For the advantage state summary, I'd put Pac-Man at 3 stars. He requires prep time and setup, but with the right amount of both he's got quick 30%+ combos (mainly stemming from galaxian hit from 0~40%) and some pretty nasty ledge traps. He lacks consistency though, so no higher than 3.
I agree. How's she in the same tier as Robin? Advantage is his best state, considering his good punish game (and bad disadvantage). 3 would imply that it's average, but does anybody really think that?
Jiggs has tools to harass an opponent once she gets a hit confirm, chase them when tumbling sideways, falling, capitalizes on missed techs and has a potent gimp game.
Advantage alone for Jiggs is pretty good, though not sure how good she gets that advantaged stage without hard committing.
What factors would you say make up Advantage state? Neutral and Disadvantage at well. If we can find general points for each of them it would make our ranking less arbitrary.
For example: for advantage I look at:
•Combo Ability
•Edge Guarding Ability
•Juggling Ability
•Killing Ability (Not Power)
For Disadvantage I look at:
•Landing Ability
•Reset to Neutral
•Recovery
•Survivability
I don't really know what to look for in neutral besides the amount of viable options.
For neutral I can at least come up with these:
- Mobility of all sorts (run, aerial horizontal, fall, jump height, walk, rolls, mobility increasing moves/attacks)
- Effective range (dash attacks, dash grabs and fast projectiles in addition to stationary attacks and aerials)
- Frame data (ties into mobility in some regards like landing lag, jump squat and SH/FH aerial times)
- Safety of attacks (how freely you can throw options out and how tough it is to punish you, ties into frame data but also into range and damage)
- The amount of threatening options (how many options the opponent has to watch out for from you in any specific situation)
- The ability to cover options and beat hitboxes (disjoints, hitboxes & arcs, lingering hitboxes, projectiles that give you stage control while you can move etc, ties into frame data and mobility)
Since the patch, should be moved down to ★★★★ at most, possibly ★★★☆? His changes to Dthrow have made his combos less potent, and (more significantly) he has lost his easy kill confirm in Dthrow > Cyclone.
While I'm touching on characters above the dotted line, are we sure should be quite as high ★★★★☆? Yeah he has sweet low % combos, but he finds it much harder to kill than anyone else in this rank (I believe).
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Also I would add ability to escape combos/strings to disadvantage traits. This includes having or lacking combo breakers eg. Luigi Nair, the size of the character's hurtbox, and how aerially mobile / floaty they are.
Am I right in saying that:
Being floaty means you have a hard time escaping strings/juggles without a good combo breaker, but combos stop working earlier on you as your % rises
Being a fast faller means combos work for longer on you (possibly into kill % if you're also light), but being more aerially mobile means escaping strings is easier because you can FF airdodge and are generally more mobile in the air
I agree Luigi should be down to 3½-4, same with Pikachu. Advantage is Pikachu's weakest area (but still good).
Sheik and ZSS probably have the best disadvantage, they escape combos with f2 and f3 invincibility down bs respectively, land for free with the help of those moves and recover for free in a multitude of ways, ZSS more so because of her ridiculously long tether. Sheik can also turn disadvantage into advantage with her fast moves and good hitboxes. Their only problem is low weight, and Sheik is still arguably on the border of midweights and lightweights.
In addition to the characters listed earlier by Emblem Lord, Mario and Luigi should be at 4 disadvantage or higher. They're on the heavier side of midweights and while Mario recovers and lands easier due to mobility specs, his up b and fireball, a lot of combos and throw follow-ups are straight up impossible on Luigi and his f3 nair that does 12%, has a good hitbox and pops you above him reversing the situation makes a lot of juggling risks worth reconsidering.
What factors would you say make up Advantage state? Neutral and Disadvantage at well. If we can find general points for each of them it would make our ranking less arbitrary.
For example: for advantage I look at:
•Combo Ability
•Edge Guarding Ability
•Juggling Ability
•Killing Ability (Not Power)
For Disadvantage I look at:
•Landing Ability
•Reset to Neutral
•Recovery
•Survivability
I don't really know what to look for in neutral besides the amount of viable options.
I still personally would consider shield pressure as a neutral star because you're pressuring shield to lead to advantage. Having shield pressure as an advantage state implies that a character shielding is in disadvantage and this is not true.
OOS options fall into this category for me as well.
To me shield pressure is part of the advantage because the pressured one is stuck into a position and has to respond, he's no longer looking for an opening to transition to advantage, he's looking for an opportunity to reset to neutral.
For Jiggs, I could realistically see her dropping in Advantage. her advantage state is very, very matchup dependent. Against some characters, when she gets offstage advantage she can maximize it and kill them outright. However, many characters can mix up their recovieries enough to recover relatively threat free. With her poor range, she also can't press advantage as well as some of the other characters in the same tier. She's got great disadvantage state, but I don't think her poor neutral and subpar advantage states make up for it.
To me shield pressure is part of the advantage because the pressured one is stuck into a position and has to respond, he's no longer looking for an opening to transition to advantage, he's looking for an opportunity to reset to neutral.
