Work In Progress Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings (Outdated)

[DungeonMaster]

@ warionumbah2 Samus can kill fastfallers at 0% on delfino during stage transition with up-throw -> up-B. Should you care? Probably not.
You're saying you have a combo which kills within a tiny range, on specific stages, when the stars align. I'm not even sure that's true, because since adjusting my DI it never worked again.
That's not 5 stars, sorry, it just isn't. ZSS can grab you on ANY stage within a LARGE range of percents and kill you. It's not even close.

As for offstage, half the cast have aerial disjoints and multihits. That makes him, about average.
His off-stage kill power is definitely below average. Those are tiny hits. He can't even spike. B-air needs final hit to be worth anything and it's just slightly above average in kill power.
MK has 6 jumps but they go no where fast. Most recoveries or just any old air-dodge out manoeuvre him readily. He's really not that threatening. Overall, below average.
I'm sorry, you're not convincing me to drink the 5 star MK kool-aid. I say 3.5.

 

[Amadeus9]

If a uair combo doesn't kill you've still taken 40% of damage or so. (Dash attack, uair x5, up b does 48% without considering staling)

Typical flowchart for Meta Knight for me is to get the first dash attack at 0%, which you can get 25-30% off consistently by reading DI on the dash attack. Inwards DI means a nado, outwards means upsmash>upb. These are true combos. On dash grab you have more options because you can also do fair>upb as another mixup. This generally puts an opponent at kill percents. Even if you screw up and don't kill you're going to get at least partial credit on the 48% or so you can get from a dash attack on your next confirm, and even then you're getting your opponent pretty close to the range where dash attack > upb, ftilt1 > upb, raw uair > upb, utilt > upb will kill. This is all guaranteed stuff. Even if MK couldn't kill off a uair combo ever, his advantage is still insane.

If I hear some **** about MK kill options being unreliable again I swear to god

EDIT: LMAO "bair has slightly above average kill power"

Safe to say you can be completely ignored on this subject. Go back to playing FG Meta Knights

 

[warionumbah2]

@ warionumbah2 Samus can fastfallers at 0% on delfino during stage transition with up-throw -> up-B. Should you care? Probably not.
You're saying you have a combo which kills within a tiny range, on specific stages, when the stars align. I'm not even sure that's true, because since adjusting my DI it never worked again.
That's not 5 stars, sorry, it just isn't. ZSS can grab you on ANY stage within a LARGE range of percents and kill you. It's not even close.

That sounds cool, any footage of a competent Samus pulling that off against a competent player? I don't think anyone cares at the grand scheme of things, its Samus. Oh the range where it works isn't tiny by all means, but that info won't come on this thread. Specific stages? Ok. BF and certain Omega stages that don't appear often if at all in the competitive scene.

The most you'll get is the Palutina's temple omega stage, certain Omega stages have the same blastzone as FD.

B-air needs final hit to be worth anything and it's just slightly above average in kill power.

The first 2 hits auto link..... so the 3rd hit will happen.

I'm sorry, you're not convincing me to drink the MK kool-aid.

You haven't convinced anyone to drink the Samus kool-aid. Ever. I don't think anyone wants to see a MK main defend MK so I'll stop, discussing with you is clearly impossible.

Edit: Make that MK mains as there's others that just posted.

 

[DungeonMaster]

EDIT: LMAO "bair has slightly above average kill power"

It's obvious that you guys are very passionate, but you're not being rational. There is a long list of b-air that are much stronger than MKs. Samus, falco, zelda, lucas, robin, D3, falcon, gannon, ike, ryu, etc... MK b-air is really nothing special.
I'm pretty much done with this thread, again. It's turning into another popularity contest. Great idea for a thread, going back to lurking.

 

[Nobie]

What makes Meta Knight frightening off-stage isn't just one property but the way everything he has works together to make it so that 1) he can go just about anywhere to edgeguard you 2) he can edgeguard you entirely on his terms 3) he's never completely out of the edgeguard game even if you avoid him.

Yes, a good deal of characters move through the air than faster than MK can jump. That's not the point or potency of having multiple jumps, though. Meta Knight gets to determine when and where he uses those jumps, and it's not like most characters with the standard one double jump + recovery move(s) can decide to halt their descent significantly. Not only can MK go way out there, but he is in full control of how he does so, and he can mix up how he gets back significantly. Let's not also forget that out of the all of the multi-jump characters MK has the best mobility.

Not having a spike isn't that big of a deal for Meta Knight when nair launches at a nasty semi-spike angle, back air is strong and especially strong because he can go so deep for the kill, and if he misses, he's there to try again and again.

Samus has some cool tools and properties for edgeguarding. She has Charge Shot, Screw Attack, very powerful aerials, and a combination of heaviness and floatiness that lets her go way out there. However, it's not like Meta Knight who can practically live, eat, and go to work near the blast zone.

 

[Vyrnx]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I feel like Smash players have this really bizarre view of the neutral game, possibly as a side effect of Melee.

Smash players conflate "Neutral" with "Approach," when Neutral is so much more. Here's a useful video to explain the idea in a general fighting game sense, with the caveat that Smash Bros. is somewhat different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Rgk1CiZJ0

tl;dw: Neutral/Footsies consists of three aspects in a rock-paper-scissors relationship: Poking, Whiff punishing, and Moving Forward. Whiff punishing beats poking, moving forward beats whiff punishing, and poking beats moving forward. All of these are ways to establish an advantage on your opponent, by taking advantage of flaws in their thinking.

Some characters are better in some areas than others. Other characters are good at all three, or perhaps not that great at any of it. However, I highly doubt that you can say Game & Watch is bad at all elements of the neutral game, bad enough to be considered the most horrendous hindrance to him. After all, what you describe as "just running around out of the opponent's reach and waiting for an entrance," THAT'S a neutral game! It is whiff punishing/moving forward, and on top of that G&W has a ton of disjoints so he can also reasonably poke at the opponent in the right circumstances. You just...shouldn't short hop aerial like it's a religion.

What holds back Game & Watch is truly just his weight, and it affects him in all three states, with advantage being much less so. I would argue that Game & Watch actually has a pretty decent neutral, maybe 2.5-3 stars under normal circumstances, but the risk of getting demolished for losing the neutral is very much there. Similarly, his Disadvantage is amazing, but he has to constantly worry about making THE wrong move.

So why do you not think G&W's neutral is bad?

 

[Nobie]

So why do you think G&W's neutral isn't bad? I'm not trying to start an argument but you didn't say.

I don't think it's the greatest neutral or anything, but I feel like calling it one of the worst neutrals in the game is a bit much. The reason is because G&W has a bit too much maneuverability and large, disjointed, meaty hitboxes for me to ever think he has issues in the neutral game. He can space out shields, avoid approaches, and just generally play a spacing game similar to a swordsman.

 

[Vyrnx]

I don't think it's the greatest neutral or anything, but I feel like calling it one of the worst neutrals in the game is a bit much. The reason is because G&W has a bit too much maneuverability and large, disjointed, meaty hitboxes for me to ever think he has issues in the neutral game. He can space out shields, avoid approaches, and just generally play a spacing game similar to a swordsman.

I just don't know about this. He can't reliably space out shields as most of his moves (ground and air) have really bad end lag/not enough shield push back/not enough range. He doesn't have anything to avoid approaches other characters don't have (except average mobility and in some cases dtilt) and lacks many things to avoid approaches that other characters (a lot) do have. As for disjoint, this is true, but again, shielding just beats G&W at 90% of his neutral game. So he really is just left with hoping the other person whiffs and punishing. Marth on the other hand has enough range and low enough end lag on his disjointed aerials to play like a sword fighter (assuming he spaces well).

I don't want to feel like I'm forcing my opinion on anyone, but it's not just "this attack can't do this" and "this attack is punishable" etc. If you watch a G&W it's evident that he's a character who has a bad neutral, like how you can watch a Jigglypuff and see the same thing. Also visiting the G&W boards for 5 minutes will give you a taste of how negative they are in regards to their neutral.

The way my posts come across on the internet makes me sound very aggressive lol. I don't mean to sound that way, sorry in advance

 

[Jamurai]

I'm taking the liberty of ranking the remaining characters' advantage state to spark some discussion on them. If you think a character is too high or low, tell me why. I honestly don't know much at all about Wario so if someone could fill in on him as the last remaining character, that'd be wicked (@ ~ Gheb ~ , @Spinosaurus?).

NOTE: This is taking into account the lowering of most characters by ☆ that Pazx suggested.

★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★ =

Olimar racks up so much damage at low %s it's difficult to rank him much lower than this. He is also not lacking in good kill moves once he has racked up said damage.

ROB is at 3 stars because gyro sets up lots of things and beep boop is really good. I don't know details though, admittedly.

I put Lucario at 2.5 stars as an average of him being about 1 stars at lowest aura and about 4 stars at highest aura. At lowest aura he has some followups at low % but they don't do much damage and aren't anything special (similar to Palutena). At highest aura his low% combos do much more damage and he obviously has extremely high kill power, he's not on the same level as DK and Ryu in advantage even at highest aura though imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario's advantage is 3.5 imo, maybe 4 ... but I feel like 4 in advantage and neutral would be too much, considering he's pretty much guaranteed at this point to have about 4 in disadvantage as well. I think 3.5 in neutral/advantage and 4 in disadvantage would be a fair rating for a solid high tier character.

Fart is obviously a huge factor but he doesn't actually have that much else going for him in advantaged state. He doesn't really have any big things going out of juggles, any ledge traps including bike are super powerful but also situational and even his edgeguarding isn't as great as his good recovery would probably imply.

 

[Nobie]

A lot of people are voting Palutena as having a terrible Advantage state, but that somehow doesn't feel right to me. I always saw her as having a questionable neutral, but that her advantaged state is where she excels, between jab into grab and anti-landing shenanigans and the ability to stuff all of your opponent's defensive options with invincible attacks, large hitboxes, and the strongest up-air in the game. I'm not a Palutena player, though, so is there something I'm missing?

In general though, similar to how people think Neutral = Approach, I find a lot of the opinions in this thread revolve around the idea that Advantage = Combos + Getting the Kill. Where is this coming from? Advantage is a lot of things, not just combos: Keeping your opponent in the air, how effectively you can force your opponent towards the ledge, what you can do to them off-stage, and just in general how long you can keep them on the back-foot and how much you can do out of it. Obviously damage and combos are important, as is actually sealing the stock, but I think people in this thread have a limited view of what Advantage actually is.

 

[Amadeus9]

Palutena doesn't have a 1 star advantage imo. She has decent enough grab combos and being above her can be a nightmare because of how powerful the uair is. She can pressure offstage decently with her invulnerable bair or with the really long reach of fair, which is basically an upgraded shiek bair. It's not great but I think 2 or 2.5 stars or so is more likely, it's not like she has no tools in advantage.

Rob I'd make a case for potentially 3.5 to 4 star. Upair is terrifying.

Zard also is too low, his advantage state is basically the one thing he has. Killing uair, amazing spike, that damn uthrow... I don't see him being 2.5 in any way lol.

 

[NegaNixx]

On my personal list I have the Blue Blur at 3.5 advantage. He has a lot of good set ups out of Spin Dash, including Footstool Setups, Which can lead to free grabs setting up Tech Chases with D-Throw (one of the better throws in the game in my opinion) and can cover all options out of it with his signature speed, resulting in Pivot Grabs, Delayed Dash Attacks and others (I haven't played Sonic in a while bare with me) on a good chunk of the cast he has a set-up into D-Air Spike. He can force High recoveries with Spring if not out right gimping with it. He has good platform pressure with U-Air, and U-Smash even though he prefers flat stages.

Besides spring he's not stellar at gimping, and he has a bit of a hard time securing the kill out of edge guards but he still has "Get Out!" kill throws. If someone lasts too long, and grabing with Sonic isn't bad considering the tech around it. He has one of the if not the strongest U-Smash in the game, with great range, and also can kill with U-Throw->U-Air as well as B-Air which is relatively safe compared to most other kill moves.

I wouldn't say he's stellar at any think regarding advantage but he always has an option to put someone into a fatal situation. Off stage is good, Kill setups are good, Juggling is good and he still has the combos we found early plus more as well as tech chase set ups. He's above average (3), but not quite great (4).

I think 3.5 is just right.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Guys wtf?

Most chars in the game have a 3 star advantage at worst.

What characters live and die by in this game is their disadvantage. Everyone gets hit. It WILL happen. But if your character can get out of disadvantage virtually for free then this is a non-issue. If you look at the top tiers and slowly move down the list you will see a trend of the disadvantage state getting worse and worse. There are some outliers (CF is the the most notable example but his neutral and advantage being overtuned makes up for this flaw) but this is generally true overall.

 

[NegaNixx]

So I have been using my free time (I have a lot) to relate this type of ranking system to my personal top ten and have been using the discussion in this thread as well as my own personal theory in some places. Using the points system that I put in this thread way back (Neutral =1.5 Advantage =1 Disadvantage =1) it didn't quite work out to the organization of my top ten.

Pikachu ended up being the 2nd best character (31.5/35 points, right behind Shiek 32/35 points). Ness fell off the radar due to his poor neutral (21.5/35 points), Mario fell to the bottom of the top ten (I dropped his neutral half a star admittedly 27.5/35).

My list before was:
Shiek>ZSS>Diddy>Rosa >Pika> Mario=Fox>Ness>Sonic>Metaknight

My list on pure stats:
Shiek(32) > Pika(31.5) > ZSS(30) Diddy=Rosa(29.5) > Fox=Metaknight (28.5) > Sonic(28) > Mario(27.5) > Ness (21.5)

I don't want to start a tier list war or anything just wanted to show my findings. Do they match up with anybody else's?

On topic now:

Palutena definitely doesn't have a 1/5 advantage. To me an advantage that low would have to have slim to no combo ability, no offstage game, no juggling ability and an inability to Kill.

The Goddess of Light has a combo game out of her D-Throw, N-Air->N-Air, F-Air->F-Air, B-Air, or with bad DI D-Air, Nair, U-Air, U-Tilt (Disjoint protecting above her) and U-Smash (massive disjoint) are all good for Juggling and threatening above her, two of which kill.

She can trade reliably offstage because of her amazing B-Air, her F-Air is good at just poking and threatening off stage, N-Air can carry, D-Air can dunk (but it's bad). Auto Reticle works like Pitoo's arrows, she has a counter for people threatening her and she also has a wind-box she can throw out with her reflector as well as a good recovery that allows her to go deep.

Her U-Smash, is a great punish option at the ledge, as well as her U-Air being a good kill move but she has a bit of trouble securing the kill. Outside of gimps.

If give her at least a 2.5. 1 is a bit ludacris. For any character really.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you have combos and/or a deadly trap situation you cannot be lower then 2 stars

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If you have combos and/or a deadly trap situation you cannot be lower then 2 stars

what does have? im curious as he's just really good at neutral.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Prolly a 4 or even a 5 in neutral. He does have conversion to KO punch and some basic combos. Maybe 2 for advantage since KO punch requires the meter charge and therefore not always a constant threat.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Guys wtf?

Most chars in the game have a 3 star advantage at worst.

What characters live and die by in this game is their disadvantage. Everyone gets hit. It WILL happen. But if your character can get out of disadvantage virtually for free then this is a non-issue. If you look at the top tiers and slowly move down the list you will see a trend of the disadvantage state getting worse and worse. There are some outliers (CF is the the most notable example but his neutral and advantage being overtuned makes up for this flaw) but this is generally true overall.

Amen. This is pretty much exactly why Dr. Mario is noticably worse than Mario and not just a small gap worse. Mario's disadvantage is good enough, nothing phenomenal, but Doc does not have his solid Combo Breaker F3 Nair, his good air drift, or his higher second jump, which means Dr. Mario is combo'd harder than Mario. Additionally his neutral is slightly worse than Mario's which does not help. It's not even his recovery that I think is the largest contributor to why Doc isn't good, it's just how bad the dude gets shafted in disadvantage =V.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Amen. This is pretty much exactly why Dr. Mario is noticably worse than Mario and not just a small gap worse. Mario's disadvantage is good enough, nothing phenomenal, but Doc does not have his solid Combo Breaker F3 Nair, his good air drift, or his higher second jump, which means Dr. Mario is combo'd harder than Mario. Additionally his neutral is slightly worse than Mario's which does not help. It's not even his recovery that I think is the largest contributor to why Doc isn't good, it's just how bad the dude gets shafted in disadvantage =V.

what's doc mario's frame data on his Nair?

 

[adom4]

what's doc mario's frame data on his Nair?

It's the same as Mario's, but because of how it works (it's stronger the later it hits) i assume the weak hit isn't as good for breaking out of combos.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's the same as Mario's, but because of how it works (it's stronger the later it hits) i assume the weak hit isn't as good for breaking out of combos.

This is pretty much the big reason why. Additionally his Nair is actually active for less frames too overall, but that's not a really big deal. It's the fact that the frame 3 part is so weak (it has its uses outside of combo breaking but Mario's is much better)

 

[Browny]

Guys wtf?

Most chars in the game have a 3 star advantage at worst.

What characters live and die by in this game is their disadvantage. Everyone gets hit. It WILL happen. But if your character can get out of disadvantage virtually for free then this is a non-issue. If you look at the top tiers and slowly move down the list you will see a trend of the disadvantage state getting worse and worse. There are some outliers (CF is the the most notable example but his neutral and advantage being overtuned makes up for this flaw) but this is generally true overall.

If most characters have a 3 star at worst, that means it isnt actually 3 star, its 1.

You cant have the lowest 'at worst' rating and be be ranked in the middle.

That's just like saying if there was a sports league with 20 teams, the worst teams in the competition all finished 10th. No, there were some lower than that.

 

[Nobie]

If most characters have a 3 star at worst, that means it isnt actually 3 star, its 1.

You cant have the lowest 'at worst' rating and be be ranked in the middle.

That's just like saying if there was a sports league with 20 teams, the worst teams in the competition all finished 10th. No, there were some lower than that.

Not quite. It's a question of whether we're ranking them in order from top to bottom, or trying to find a rating that best describes what they're capable of.

Like let's say 3 stars means that you can regularly follow up your win in neutral with situations/combos/traps that tend to lead into either 20% to 25% damage or huge positional advantage on stage where you spend at least 50% of the match occupying center stage (just pulling these numbers out of thin air). If even the bottom 10 characters in the game fit this criteria, you can say that they have a 3-star advantage.

 

[Browny]

Then what is the point of having 1 and 2 star rankings?

You might as well make the rankings go from 1-100 stars where only 98-100 are occupied, it make literally no difference. You cant rate things out of 5, but 1 and 2 are impossible. it means you have now rated them 1-3.

 

[Nobie]

Because again it's not necessarily about saying who has the relative best or worst, but rather who has the tools to win or not.

It's like, if a character has mostly 4:6 matchups, and they're for whatever reason bottom 5 on the tier list, that doesn't magically transform those matchups into being worse than 4:6. You might still say that they're indeed bottom 5, but it doesn't then go back and impact the fact that their disadvantage against most characters is only slight.

 

[Browny]

But it is, it says that in the OP it is a comparison rating of best to worst.

1 star characters are rated bottom 10 in the cast, 2 stars bottom 20 etc. Its all relative.

 

[Shaya]

I would say it's more like the median/mean value for ANY 'stat' has to be [close to] 2.5 across the cast.
Both is best, median for if we believe the cast is super well balanced, closer the mean can be to 2.5 though the better.

 

[Trifroze]

The difference between the best and worst advantages in the game isn't as big as the difference between the best and worst neutrals in the game. Disadvantage is probably similar to advantage in this regard but in the opposite way, no one has a "really good" disadvantage compared to other characters the same way Sheik and some others have really good neutrals for example.

Still, I'm more for rating everything from ½ to 5 stars. If your character can kill, grab, punish laggy options and land hits or combos (so essentially every character in the game) it shouldn't mean their advantage can't be less than 3 stars. The characters who do this the worst should still be ½, and the characters who do this the best should be 5. If you're going to value neutral higher than advantage or disadvantage then just give it a 1.5 multiplier like has been suggested before.

I do understand the other view too though, and it might save some problems if a character with a really terrible advantage is ever released. However this would also mean that no character should get a disadvantage higher than maybe 3½ or 4 stars.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I didn't say no character has worse then 3 stars for advantage though.

I said most. There are a few that do have lower. Jiggz and Doc spring to mind. Doc has combos but his conversion is really one hit after a grab and thats it and he doesnt create traps well. Jiggz needs an edgeguard situation to excel and thats only one aspect of advantage.

Actually jiggz might be the only 1 star advantage.

 

[DunnoBro]

If you want accurate rankings you have to be able to say "This character is worst at X and Y character isn't much better."

Someone has to be at the bottom and whatever number is the lowest score is essentially a "1-star" anyway so it's pointless to try beating around the bush with this "No one's that bad" talk. Yea, this game is pretty balanced and compressed but some characters are still the worst at things.

As far as neutral, yea. This game is more dependent on neutral options and advantage/disadvantage hinge on the neutral. There's also generally more options to consider, so neutral specifically having a cap of 7~star might be best.

 

[Amadeus9]

It depends entirely on whether you want your rating to rank characters, or if you want them to rank ability. These are pretty different things.

For instance, if you're using it to rank ability, 5 stars would mean that a character is deadly in advantage a large amount of the time in sweeping percent ranges, and 1/2 a star would mean that getting an advantage will rarely mean anything more than a small amount of damage, and an incredibly hard time scoring a stock to the point of being almost impossible against a competent player. If we're ranking this way, then yes there would rarely be anyone below a 2 star ranking.

The advantage to ranking like this is you don't have to go all nuts in comparing each individual character to each other in order to create an exact list of best character to worst character in each category. If we could actually do that, then there wouldn't be much value in this anyways because we'd already have the game completely figured out :y. In the end, doing things like this thread are most valuable in order to understand the cast more fully, not to actually be used as an end-all-be-all scientific ranking. At least that's how it seems to me.

 

[NimbusSpark]

To bring my own opinion into this, I'd personally have to say that Pac-Man's advantage state is within a ★★☆ Star level. But definitely not worse than ★★.
In terms of reasons -

Combos -
Pac-Man does have a few basic combos, such as Double Jab to Trampoline, F-Air to N-Air, or even another F-Air, or even Down Throw to Dash Attack at fairly low percentages, depending if the enemy doesn't tech. Although, none of Pac-Man's combos are amazingly menacing, besides Dash Attack > Bell > Power Pellet, which can kill at around 50-70%, but even then, it's difficult to perform.

KO Options -
This is what could be considered the main problem with Pac-Man. He has a good amount of KO Options, but none of them really are considered to be reliable.
Either they're too slow and thus require reads (all of Pac's Smashes), need time to set up (Melon, Key, Hydrant) or require the enemy to be offstage for Pac to kill with it in a decent manner. (Orange, N-Air)
Although, with setups, Pac-Man is definitely good in this manner, as it obviously meshes straight into his setup-heavy playstyle. Throwing a Z-Dropped Melon up then using Trampoline not only covers both SH and Ground approaches really well, but Melon has decent enough knockback that it can kill, as an example.

Offstage Abilites -
This is where Pac-Man truly shines. Despite lacking a meteor spike, he still has amazing tools that can be used.
Bonus Fruit, mainly Orange, Melon and Key, can provide deadly tools to beat those that are trying to recover horizontally.
Hydrant can stage spike or even ledgeguard.
F-Air, whilst weak, still has enough knockback to chain repeated hits in order to keep the enemy off the stage.
In opinion though, this is where Pac would have to get most of his kills at.

Pressure -
Another problem Pac-Man has - he can't get players into his advantage stage easily, and he can't keep them there for too long. One of the main reasons for this is his terrible ability against shields, literally having one of the most punishable grabs in the game, and is reliant on SH F-Airs in order to at least pressure the shield safely. Even then, Pac's damage is overall rather weak, so the enemies shield won't break any time soon.
And whilst he has some of the fastest aerials in the game, they lack the safety or synergy characters like Shiek or Ryu have.

 

[Sykkamorre]

In response to what someone said earlier about ganon having a worse advantage than samus due to 30/40% combo's...

Late DA > uair.
Dtilt> dtilt.
Uair causes tech chases.
Unreachable grounded stomp combo's directly into usmash at low percent's.

What even brah?

 

[Omegascizor456]

half of the neutral in smash 4 is getting grabs... :/ also in later percents depending on characters you want to throw them off stage and try to get a gimp... atleast thats how i interpret neutral!

 

[kenniky]

That's just like saying if there was a sports league with 20 teams, the worst teams in the competition all finished 10th. No, there were some lower than that.

This is kind of a terrible analogy in the Smash community because in a 512 person tournament the worst people will place 385th

 

[Emblem Lord]

Meh bored. Characters with 4 stars or better in disadvantage



These characters might have a 4 but im not too sure




This is just off the top of my head

Thoughts? This is mainly based on ability to get out of horrendous trap situations. And overall recovery.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy's upB is a bit too vulnerable to give him a full 4-star disadvantage imo.

 

[Meru.]

Meh bored. Characters with 4 stars or better in disadvantage



These characters might have a 4 but im not too sure




This is just off the top of my head

Thoughts? This is mainly based on ability to get out of horrendous trap situations. And overall recovery.

Zelda's disadvantage is really really poor. Her recovery is very good but her landing is horrendous. Floatly, not very fast in the air, no good aerials to cover herself and the options she does have have centuries of lag, bad ledge options...

Zelda probably has 2 stars at best at like everything.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was mostly thinking about how warp is hard to edgeguard and good for getting out of bad spots but I will take your word for it.