Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[BitBitio]

Both and have potential to be high tier.

I would also add to the loser list. Komota got out at 257th, and Choq got only 4th at a small event (95 entrants) with two PRed players, him and Tag .

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Don't forget and 2 getting 9th for winners. I'd also add to the losers, even though she did really well she under-preformed previous results. The nerfs hurt.

One thing this tournament has proven is you don't need to be top tier to win big at S tier events. Look at top 8:
1st: MkLeo
2nd: Maister
3rd: Tweek
4th: Tea
5th: Dabuz
5th: Wrath
7th: Zackray
7th: Toast

After the patch the gap between top tiers and other characters has never been smaller.

Well we cannot really write one small underpefomance as anything major to come yet. Especially in a game as balanced as Ultimate. Nairo has had struggles with the MU even before the nerfs. Losers Bracket MKLeo is just a case of bad Luck

Now if you really want to talk about a big underperformance look at . Honestly my take is that I think and possibly may be superior swordies

 

[blackghost]

Both and have potential to be high tier.

I would also add to the loser list. Komota got out at 257th, and Choq got only 4th at a small event (95 entrants) with two PRed players, him and Tag .

high tier? they need to actually do something first. i see wiifit get a lot of wins from john numbers in his weekly but the chaarcter isnt doing anything jaw-dropping to my knowledge.
zelda is scary for sure but theory and results need to match before we start crowning people.

by;eth should not get credit for this .

i have enjoyed leos run more than i ever enjoyed zer0s i see adaptation, competitive spirit, and clutch execution more than i saw in zer0.
i would also hold off on judging and until their stronger mains get to come out to an event.

also the more i see of terry i lean more towards being overall better. its close but ken seems better imo.

 

[KirbySquad101]

It did feel like both players were just joshing around by the time the reset happened. After getting steamrolled four games in a row, Maister considered going TERRY, a character he has barely invested in, much less so compared to his other characters (), and did so with a big ol' goofy smile on his face.

For further context, the two have been wanting to have a - in their words - a "Mexican Grand Finals" at a major tourney for some time now, and now that the two finally had it, why wouldn't they kick back and have a good time about it? Even Maister himself expressed happiness about it despite being steamrolled the entire set.

In that regard, I feel like the win shouldn't count, but that's just my take on it.

==================================================================================================

- To talk about the tournament as a whole, really good showings from both MKLeo and Maister. Maister finally managed to defeat two Top 10 players he lost to previous season (Dabuz and Kameme), and only lost to MKLeo the entire tournament. It's a good win for both him and himself.

- MKLeo, though, was on an absolute rampage, even more than his usual Loser's Runs. To put things into perspective, he took out SIX of the Top 10 players this tournament: Samsora, Nairo, Tweek, Zackray, Dabuz, and Maister. The only ones he didn't wipe out were Light, who got eliminated by Toast, Glutonny, who got eliminated by Samsora, and Marss, who got eliminated by Zackray. Though the Joker nerfs were looking impactful this tournament, MKLeo managed to pull through, and it makes sense that he did. The Joker nerfs, as PKGaming pointed out, force you to be on more point with the character and screw up less (which, now that I think about, feels VERY reminiscent of the nerfs, just not as drastic). But with a mental fortitude and evasive gameplan like MKLeo... it isn't surprising to see MKLeo be barely slowed down by such changes.

- nerfs are a different story. While the nerfs aren't nearly enough to keep Palu out of top tier, they had a bigger impact than I expected. Nairo could not get ANY DThrow->BAir follow-ups this entire tournament, but on top of that, even with max rage, Palu's NAir STILL couldn't kill Joker at the edge when he was at 150% and counting. The nerfs are a definite blow to the ease of Palu's toolkit in taking stocks, and while she isn't starved of kill options anymore (BAir, UAir, BThrow, Dash Attack still exist), it did look like Nairo had to work harder to close out those stocks this time around.

- Speaking of which, this was a CRAZY tournament. Lots of big players ended up getting wiped out early on either due to having unfortunate run-ins with the Joker devil early on (i.e. Dark Wizzy) or other upsets leading to major players being forced to fight each other early (Marss vs. Zackray). The two big performers this tournament were undoubtedly Wrath and Toast: Both had crazy runs, with Wrath having wins over Glutonny, Kameme, and Paseriman, and Toast having wins over Samsora, Light, and Kameme.

- is undoubtedly high tier at worst but like NotLiquid pointed out, he isn't a very easy character to pilot anymore: He can't rely on shield canceling to force/bait approaches out of the opponent with ease like he could in Smash 4, so instead, you've got to go down different routes: Jump-cancel-to-DAir/Homing Attack, dash-through-into-another-Spin-Dash, etc. There's so many useful workarounds to bait the opponent and while none of them are as oppressive as what he had in 4, it's more than enough to keep his original gameplan in tact. And you know what? Wrath and KEN have recognized that and have utilized that better than any other Sonic I've seen. And honestly, major props to them for sticking to their previous main and finding ways to still make him work. Maybe Sonic isn't a top tier now, but if KEN and Wrath continue to do as well as they have been doing, I wouldn't surprised if he does end up one in the future.

 

[ZephyrZ]

There's nothing to respect about Sonic's player base, they're just exploiting his toxic game design for ugly wins. Sonic's don't get better in proportion to their skill, they get better based on how shameless they're willing to be.

Not-so-hot Take: Attitudes like this are more toxic then even the campiest character's play style.

 

[Nekoo]

Genuine questions.
Why shouldn't Byleth's win count?

MkLeo beat Maister with him even if it was up to 2-0 and got the tournament win on him.
It's no different than any others top player doing a counterpick in top 32/top 8 getting a win with another Characters.

If MKLeo lost with Byleth, you guys would probably write yet another paragraph on why the Character suck for 3 pages... So I wonder why the double standard?

Maister had his spirit broken, doesn't remove any credit to MkLeo's performance and confidence in that situation

 

[L9999]

If Zelda's sourspot Fair actually did something Zelda would have a shot at being a great character. I have seen it in every Zelda video, every time she has to get someone away from her or land, her lack of a Fair really hurts. Sweetspot Fair does give her cheese kills and is part of her success, but a Fair that keeps the opponent away from her in order to reset situations in her favor is a tool she desperately needs.

 

[Impax]

high tier? they need to actually do something first. i see wiifit get a lot of wins from john numbers in his weekly but the chaarcter isnt doing anything jaw-dropping to my knowledge.
zelda is scary for sure but theory and results need to match before we start crowning people.

by;eth should not get credit for this .

i have enjoyed leos run more than i ever enjoyed zer0s i see adaptation, competitive spirit, and clutch execution more than i saw in zer0.
i would also hold off on judging and until their stronger mains get to come out to an event.

also the more i see of terry i lean more towards being overall better. its close but ken seems better imo.

Wii fit is sort of stuck in this limbo where the best players can get great wins but always get stuck at 33rd at s tiers.

You mention numbers but Varun beat Etsuiji and Myran to get 33rd. Kerogutchi has beaten a gamut of Japanese PR players like Brood and Rotsuku. But still 33rd at evo japan. CPU ,Evy (formerly Stas) and Numbers have all also placed 33rd.

So give nher results and matchup spread she should probably remain upper mid tier, at least until someone breaks out.

Terry and Ken seem like the same ballpark to me. I dont think Terry has been out long enough to judge any minutia difference, but that's just my take.

 

[Nobie]

Dude, come on, you WISH you had wrath's level of patience. People who play against sonic fail to understand how despite them needing to play patiently against sonic, he needs to have an even higher level of patience to win. Wrath is doing a lot of smart things you would not understand because you don't play the character. His hitboxes (aside from his fair, bair, uair, and fsmash) and killing factor are very bad, and almost every move he has is very unsafe on shield (even more than Mac). He can't just play aggro and win, he has to play patiently and bait for openings because he sucks at actually pressuring for one unless you've spent hundreds of hours labbing spindash pressure like wrath has. He also arguably has to work for a kill harder than any other character in the game except bayo and shiek. If you are going to spout things, at least try to sound like you know what you are talking about. Sonic does require a lot of thought to win and succeed with, and this is even reflected by his relatively low pick-rate (at least for a probable high tier). Wrath might LOOK like he just spins a lot, but that's because you (as well as a lot of people who don't main the character) don't understand what he's doing. It's a conditioning tool; and its highly committal and very hard to properly utilize because it loses to virtually every move in the game due to its tiny hitbox. You can call it toxic, but quite frankly it's still far from a f3 oos option that is nearly unpunishable, or a revenge mechanic that can kill midweights at 50% with one bair, or having an fsmash that can kill as early as 60% from midstage. Sonic, besides spindash, really doesn't have any dishonest/cheesy moves (maybe fsmash, but even then that's a hard read/spacing callout). It also doesn't help that despite being a mid-lightweight, sonic has bad kill options and non-existant confirms (most of his supposed "confirms" are highly inconsistent at high %, like spincharge to fair/uair/nair, his only true confirm being nair to bair and that is super risky).


It's funny how much smash players show disdain for sonic, when most other fighting games (namely Tekken) usually require a degree of patience, movement, and have very bait-&-punish neutrals that reward not just running up and pressing buttons/spamming projectiles (or, I guess in Wario's case, sit back in neutral and basically save up for a guaranteed stock).

I got the chance to practice against a Sonic recently, who proceeded to destroy me over and over in multiple games. Out of dozens of games, I won about two. One of the core things I realized I did wrong was that I was used to just throwing out attacks preemptively to try and take up space, and Sonic can punish these things like no one else. My only wins came from when I took the time to be more observant, and hitting attack buttons only when I thought it mattered. I think this is part of why others dislike Sonic so much. There's a certain desire to just...throw out attacks, and Sonic poops all over that. And when you just want to chase him down and make him pay, well, he's the fastest thing ali-eee-ive.

It wasn't until I began looking at James Chen's First Attack video that I found someone accurately describe the difference in mindset. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL45-KVgrSkf6CfB30eMjvcqf8O-WTByp2

In particular, two things he mentions are 1) economy of buttons in neutral, i.e. only throw out attacks with the intent to accomplish something instead of just doing it just to do it, and 2) when you just throw out attacks because you just want it to happen instead of doing it in response to how your opponent is playing, you're not playing footsies, you're playing "hopesies." That's "I hope this attack might connect" vs. "I think this attack is the right choice to make in this situation."

Sonic is amazing at footsies, but he crushes hopesies like nobody's business. And what I've realized is that a lot of Smash players, who are used to having overtuned catch-all options on their characters, get away with a lot of hopesies.

 

[Nah]

Genuine questions.
Why shouldn't Byleth's win count?

MkLeo beat Maister with him even if it was up to 2-0 and got the tournament win on him.
It's no different than any others top player doing a counterpick in top 32/top 8 getting a win with another Characters.

If MKLeo lost with Byleth, you guys would probably write yet another paragraph on why the Character suck for 3 pages... So I wonder why the double standard?

Maister had his spirit broken, doesn't remove any credit to MkLeo's performance and confidence in that situation

Because that one win doesn't mean anything. Neither of them were trying that last game, they were just screwing around, had already decided that Leo was going to be the winner. Such a scenario doesn't showcase anything of value, and it's not the same as counterpicking at all. It would be the same regardless of which character Leo used in that final game.

This shouldn't be difficult to grasp really. I told people in the Byleth boards this days ago, but if y'all really want to prove that Byleth is better than commonly thought, you need to do better than things like "Pink Fresh stomped a local" or "The best player in the world won the last game of a major with Byleth in a game where his opponent stopped trying" and such. Please try to come up with sound theoretical explanations and/or wait for results that legitimately point to Byleth being better than people think.

I've seen this song and dance before over the years, where people get so desperate to defend a character that they only seek out what superficially confirms their stance and overlook obvious flaws in their "evidence", and I can't be the only one who's gotten tired of it.

 

[Nekoo]

Because that one win doesn't mean anything. Neither of them were trying that last game, they were just screwing around, had already decided that Leo was going to be the winner. Such a scenario doesn't showcase anything of value, and it's not the same as counterpicking at all. It would be the same regardless of which character Leo used in that final game.

This shouldn't be difficult to grasp really. I told people in the Byleth boards this days ago, but if y'all really want to prove that Byleth is better than commonly thought, you need to do better than things like "Pink Fresh stomped a local" or "The best player in the world won the last game of a major with Byleth in a game where his opponent stopped trying" and such. Please try to come up with sound theoretical explanations and/or wait for results that legitimately point to Byleth being better than people think.

I've seen this song and dance before over the years, where people get so desperate to defend a character that they only seek out what superficially confirms their stance and overlook obvious flaws in their "evidence", and I can't be the only one who's gotten tired of it.

As I said. It was just a genuine questions because I don't understood why, I'm not claiming that Byleth is godlike or won a Major, It was a genuine questions of mine-

 

[The_Bookworm]

- nerfs are a different story. While the nerfs aren't nearly enough to keep Palu out of top tier, they had a bigger impact than I expected. Nairo could not get ANY DThrow->BAir follow-ups this entire tournament, but on top of that, even with max rage, Palu's NAir STILL couldn't kill Joker at the edge when he was at 150% and counting. The nerfs are a definite blow to the ease of Palu's toolkit in taking stocks, and while she isn't starved of kill options anymore (BAir, UAir, BThrow, Dash Attack still exist), it did look like Nairo had to work harder to close out those stocks this time around.

Still think Palutena (and Joker) is still top 5. Palu does have to work a little harder to finish off the stocks, but she still has pretty much everything else about her.
Nairo did pretty well in the tournament for having to face Tweek and MkLeo back-to-back, while there are plenty of other Palu players in the bracket that either main (like Mystearica) or secondary (like MuteAce) that did well.

Because that one win doesn't mean anything. Neither of them were trying that last game, they were just screwing around, had already decided that Leo was going to be the winner. Such a scenario doesn't showcase anything of value, and it's not the same as counterpicking at all. It would be the same regardless of which character Leo used in that final game.

This shouldn't be difficult to grasp really. I told people in the Byleth boards this days ago, but if y'all really want to prove that Byleth is better than commonly thought, you need to do better than things like "Pink Fresh stomped a local" or "The best player in the world won the last game of a major with Byleth in a game where his opponent stopped trying" and such. Please try to come up with sound theoretical explanations and/or wait for results that legitimately point to Byleth being better than people think.

I've seen this song and dance before over the years, where people get so desperate to defend a character that they only seek out what superficially confirms their stance and overlook obvious flaws in their "evidence", and I can't be the only one who's gotten tired of it.

As for the MkLeo discussion, I don't think his Byleth's involvement in the tournament should be really noted as part of the Orion Stat points, but at least it should at least put the character in discussion.

Out of all the people in this thread, I think I am one of the only ones who remain somewhat optimistic of the character. While I don't think the character is high tier (who knows, maybe that will change in the future), the character's moveset I think is very underrated.

Granted that there of course the obvious mobility factor that plagues the character, as well as some moves in his toolkit that are rather slow (don't use down B please), but the pure utility that his moveset brings to the table is pretty good.

While his n-air seems to a run of-a-mill multi-hit n-air (that isn't Palutena's), it has a lot more going for that it meets the eyes. It can lead to forward/back air, and it's hitbox properties makes throwing out the move on people's shield more plausible than it meets the eye, especially since the move has a landing hitbox (similar to Falco's f-air) with similar hitbox properties of n-air's final hit.

While Byleth's ability to ledgetrap and edgeguard has been known for a long time, his ability to whiff-punish should also be noted. His forward smash has huge reach and KO's really early, and if it doesn't kill, can set-up for an edgeguard sequence due to its launch angle.

Then there is his up smash and up air, two moves that scream "DLC" to me.

He also possesses a surprisingly good recovery with his up and side B (the latter, of course, for coverage and stalling), which is especially rare for a character of his mobility class.

So while MkLeo's usage of Byleth in the tournament isn't really noteworthy, I think people in this thread are kind of writing him off a bit too early.
Give it some time, and we will see if I am right or I am wrong with this assumption of the character.

is living proof why we shouldn't write off a character too early.

 

[ARISTOS]

The nerfs don't change how you play against her for 90% of the MU, but the nerf to down throw heavily impacts that final 10%, when players are at the ledge looking for kills.

Prior, Palu had a pretty nasty combination of being able to kill off both forward and backward facing throw options, which gave her a super scary mix game at ledge. Most characters can not do this, with the ones who can () having pretty poor mobility specs/are Mewtwo to compensate. Palu, of course, has a great movement specs.

Now that she can no longer do that, her ability to kill you forward facing is much worse, and she relies on bair/back throw much more heavily now in corner situations. It's a pretty sizable nerf, and in killing situations she has to put herself at more risk.

 

[blackghost]

having a hard time taking stocks is not a minor change. its possible palutena players just need time to adjust but palutena had the label of easiest character for best possible reward. resulting in a bunch of pockets and a huge secondary playerbase (i mean did you watch squad strike). if paliutena continues to have these issues she will drop.
is

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Terry and Ken seem like the same ballpark to me. I dont think Terry has been out long enough to judge any minutia difference, but that's just my take.

terry recovery while better than anticipated is not so much better than a shoto to merrit much discussion. but what is worth more is that ken and ryu have better frame datat and better zoning plus with these new cancels on ryu and ken they now have burst movement options and still overall hit harder. plus ken and ryu always have shoryuken terry doesnt always have his best options.

pikachu becoming this game's shulk? only with better results?

 

[Lacrimosa]

If Zelda's sourspot Fair actually did something Zelda would have a shot at being a great character. I have seen it in every Zelda video, every time she has to get someone away from her or land, her lack of a Fair really hurts. Sweetspot Fair does give her cheese kills and is part of her success, but a Fair that keeps the opponent away from her in order to reset situations in her favor is a tool she desperately needs.

If only it wasn't negative on hit. Knockback can stay the same (maybe) but the sourspot needs more hitstun. Every other relevant weak-hit or sourspot has at least side benefits: Roy's aren't negative on hit and neither are Peach's sourspots.
One person here said that she has aerials similar to Mac and while I disagree with that, I still can see where this impression comes from.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well like I mentioned before Nairo did have a?bit of poor bracket luck this tournament. Tweek decided to start using again and Nairo has had personal struggles with that MU even before the nerfs. Having loses to Pandarian and Ned, then he had to face Losers bracket Leo , so yeah..

There were other top-tiers that did not get touched in 7.0.0 that did worse than Palu at Frostbite . i.e .

I do not want to really count since his best player did not participate and that would obviously be a factor

Palus nerfs did and will impact her forward. But she still is a very strong character

 

[BitBitio]

is looking to be just as strong as pre-patch. The nerfs did hurt in a few games, especially vs Prodigy who pretty much drained the meter in a single combo more than once and was harder to edgeguard thanks to gun nerfs, but Leo’s losers run is evidence of the fact that he doesn’t need those as much as we thought. He beat king_chris , Salem , Samsora , Nairo , Tweek , Tea , Maister twice, Zackray , Dabuz , and Dark Wizzy . These are all very notable, and I think the fact that he beat Wizzy during this run puts to rest the notion that the Joker-Mario MU is in Mario’s favor, rather, Leo had a bad set.

 

[KirbySquad101]

As much as I agree with the "Pika is overrated" sentiments, there is a chance we'll be seeing another top player repping it, this time in the form of Cosmos:

Inkling is fun to play in friendlies but shes too stressful to play in bracket :( She doesnt have enough get off me options in scramble situations

I think I'm gonna consider playing mainly Pikachu after Frostbite instead of Inkling

I'm sorry anyone who watches me for Inkling 😭

— Cosmos (@CosmosZR) February 23, 2020

Unfortunately underperformed to my expectations

Will be practicing Pikachu moving forward

See yall next tournament

— Cosmos (@CosmosZR) February 23, 2020

Whether or not Cosmos follows through with this, only time will tell, but if he does, it could be a big boon for the yellow rat.

 

[KakuCP9]

While Inkling isn't fastfaller like Chroy, using their cheater bair to carve out a space to land is on par with a floatier Pika and his Quick attack since there are characters who challenge it due it's startup (especially since you can't edge cancel it in this game) so picking Pika for the disadvantage state doesn't make as much sense as one would think (you're better off picking ZSS at that point). What I feel would be a step up from Inkling would be the KO power Pika's dash attack has which gives him a constant midrange KO threat in tandem with his aerials and QA. Though I'm skeptical Cosmos will actually commit to Pika unless he already had a Pika secondary in the works.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Inkling should be out of contention for top-tier then.
Feel like they were on the decline since Space from Europe also starts to struggling harder now and got only 9th at TUP3. There also don't appear to be any big Inklings from Japan as Abadango seems to have drlopped her in favor of dual-maining Palu and Wario.


As for Byleth and OrionStat points: I don't think it's valid to deny Byleth the points. After all, points do only matter in context. It's still statistics and simply cutting one number isn't fair because we have to evaluate how these points have been gathered and in that context it should be mentioned that she gained points by beating Maister in a more or less irrelevant last match.

On that note, didn't Das Koopa mention they also want to value in the players and how much a player contributed to a character's rank?
Like, if Byleth gained the most points by MKLeo then we can assume that Byleth doesn't have a big impact on the metagame for now.

(I'm sorry if the English sounds bad here. This was kinda rough to write)

 

[NairWizard]

As for Byleth and OrionStat points: I don't think it's valid to deny Byleth the points. After all, points do only matter in context. It's still statistics and simply cutting one number isn't fair because we have to evaluate how these points have been gathered and in that context it should be mentioned that she gained points by beating Maister in a more or less irrelevant last match.

The statistics are collected/assembled/aggregated by an algorithm that already assigns weight to some variables over others. No one is suggesting (or should be suggesting, rather) that Byleth's win be cut out entirely. Just that it should be assigned an appropriately low weight. This might mean making an adjustment to the point-assigning algorithm.

It's worth noting that Maister's Pichu was probably more impactful to the set than Byleth was, given the situation--Maister was genuinely trying to counterpick there. I'd sooner see Pichu get credit as being a valid option against Joker (despite the loss).

Also, your English is great, don't worry.

 

[NotLiquid]

Space doesn't practice/grind regularly. He's admitted himself that he rarely practices much in general, hence his downturn in results. Despite him sympathizing with Cosmos (since Space generally plays secondaries) he actually feels people are overreacting to Cosmos dropping her.

Cosmos' Inkling play in general during Frostbite was uncharacteristically sloppy and a marked downgrade from previous tournaments. It felt like watching week 1 Inkling all over again since he never bothered zoning, went for a bunch of autopilot roller reads, and employed none of the strats that's allowed him to keep the character ahead of the curve. Compare his performance here to his run at Glitch 8 and there's a clear night-and-day difference in his mindset. I think it's more fair to admit his heart just isn't there for the character anymore, which is fair since doing good with the character at a top level is demanding and like every top tier it feels like you only really start realizing your own character's limitations the more you spend time with them (Tweek still can't decide if he wants to be a Wolf, Wario or PT main despite every one of those characters having won an S-tier and have proven themselves as perfectly solo-viable top tier contenders), albeit like I said the other page; the fact that he's entertaining switching to a character who is equally, if not more demanding, is a gamble.

Setting aside all of that it's a pants mindset to think that affects the overall general perception when you look at the statistics; no character's results is singlehandedly carried by one player and for the majority of OrionStats' tracking, Inkling has generally been around the 10-14 range for most of Ultimate's lifespan - including Cosmos' hiatus period when his results dropped - which kind of showcases a lot of tunnel visioning in regards to the popular opinion that the character is only buoyed by a single top rep. It's a similar phenomenon you see with Snake; despite the character not having performed all that well in a major in what feels like a long time, he still ranks #2 this current season. MVD is largely considered one of the best active Snake players in most majors at the moment, and his recent placements have underperformed significantly relative to where most people place him in tiers, as well as his actual competitive results.

Conversely you look at Pikachu and you witness the complete opposite; here's a character who actually, genuinely gets carried only by one or two notable players, and has had ESAM only miss Top 9 placements one or two times the entire last PGR season; yet those results have only netted the character a #23 in both last season and the current season's rankings, marking a powerful gap between the amount of people who play them and do well with them.

At best, the character would be a bottom of top tier contender; 10th is where she averaged among most top players in their tier lists. At worst, they're still somewhere around the very borderline marking a negligible difference. No character with the amount of tools she has can get away with settling for less, and it's kind of a blessing that she doesn't have a better NAir than she does because if so her qualities would never be in dispute in the first place.

 

[Gleam]

You could arguably give Byleth the full points and while it would significantly jump her up the ranks, both by numbers and by the fact that everyone is effectively a point or less away from each other. Unless the Byleth base could continue to keep up that consistency of results, she'd drop right back down by next week.

Remember when was (for argument sake) #50 on Orion and then after doing great because of (I want to say) Lucky, and he jumped to like #43 or something. It took one week, maybe two tops when Orion was updated that Plant dropped practically back to where he was before. I don't think Byleth deserves to have more than what she's earned but I also don't think it's going to create a fundamental problem.

Worst case scenario, Byleth becomes an absurdly popular character that skews her results the way Pre-Patch did but, we've got things like SSBworld to help make judgements in these case. At this point, I'm not so worried about Byleth skewing results anytime soon and definitely not in the long run right now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hot take: ZSS is probably the best character in the game currently. A no-brainer for some, i'm sure, but that character is just... ridiculous, in every regard.

The character is dumb and I hate how Nintendo still thinks Flip Kick is ok.

It's not ok.

The mark of a strong ZSS is how well they can abuse this move. Yea yea you need to be smart in how you use it. Cool.

No one can justify why this move is invincible.

Bleh.

 

[KakuCP9]

The character is dumb and I hate how Nintendo still thinks Flip Kick is ok.

It's not ok.

The mark of a strong ZSS is how well they can abuse this move. Yea yea you need to be smart in how you use it. Cool.

No one can justify why this move is invincible.

Bleh.

The funniest part is that the dev team stealth nerfed flip kick at one point cause she was beating the crap out of Japan and subsequently was limping terms of results at that point (IIRC Marss was really struggling at the time and Shaya said she was mid or something) and then a few months after, they made it better than it was before and now Marss is back being an absolute menace with his madman flip kicks getting him kills (Which made Shaya really happy and then called her top tier.)
Small world huh?

 

[Kiligar]

Calling ZSS mid tier is an insult to mid tiers. That’s why I hate it when players underrate their characters. Calling a slew of high tiers mid tier. Sonic? Mid tier. Ike? Mid tier. Cloud? Mid tier. Marth? Mid tier. Young Link? Mid Tier. Ryu? Mid tier. It goes on and on, and as soon as a player does bad with a powerful character something dumb is said like, “lol Inkling is mid tier”. Absolutely obnoxious.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Btw. do we consider chars like or still as low-tier?
I think both should be out of question for this tier-placement now.

I haven't considered to be a low tier for a while. She does struggle in a lot of matchups () but she has enough things going for her that I would probably consider her a high mid tier at least. She's fast, has decent hitboxes (unless fighting short characters) has a decent camping game, decent recovery, and decent kill power. Everything about her is just kind of decent until she uses deep breathing and everything becomes great. She still does have the weakness of having trouble hitting short characters and some reflectors can just negate a lot of her gameplan, but overall, she's fine.

is a bit trickier since she's a lot more polarizing than Wii Fit IMO. She suffers from being slow and having mediocre frame data and range, but also has a pretty well-rounded moveset and a good zoning and anti-zoning game. She can do well against a lot of the mid/high tier zoners and even a few top tiers but will struggle against some of the other high/top tier characters (). That being said, ESAM believes that she goes even with who has among the least losing and even MUs in the game and while that doesn't make her an instant top tier, having an OK MU vs the best character in the game (at least I think he's the best) doesn't count for nothing. I'd say that Zelda's a solid mid tier, but a good argument could probably be made for her being better or worse than that.

Calling ZSS mid tier is an insult to mid tiers. That’s why I hate it when players underrate their characters. Calling a slew of high tiers mid tier. Sonic? Mid tier. Ike? Mid tier. Cloud? Mid tier. Marth? Mid tier. Young Link? Mid Tier. Ryu? Mid tier. It goes on and on, and as soon as a player does bad with a powerful character something dumb is said like, “lol Inkling is mid tier”. Absolutely obnoxious.

Samsora is my favorite example of this.

Samsora (I'm paraphrasing here): "Peach loses 15-20 MUs, but she's still like 6th or 7th best in the game or something."

I'm sorry, what?

Say what you will about Elegant exaggerating his opinions of Luigi, but at least he doesn't significantly underrate his character like a lot of top players. Him, Maister, Dark Wizzy, and Leo are some of the few top players who I don't see underrate their mains (and seem to be more honest about their opinions even if others don't agree) in this game and it kind of annoys me when some people do.

 

[StoicPhantom]

If Zelda's sourspot Fair actually did something Zelda would have a shot at being a great character. I have seen it in every Zelda video, every time she has to get someone away from her or land, her lack of a Fair really hurts. Sweetspot Fair does give her cheese kills and is part of her success, but a Fair that keeps the opponent away from her in order to reset situations in her favor is a tool she desperately needs.

If only it wasn't negative on hit. Knockback can stay the same (maybe) but the sourspot needs more hitstun. Every other relevant weak-hit or sourspot has at least side benefits: Roy's aren't negative on hit and neither are Peach's sourspots.

I mean, you either have the spacing or you don't. This isn't Melee Zelda with an obvious but awkward sweetspot or Smash 4 Zelda with a small sweetspot and very laggy frame data. Ultimate Zelda has a generous sweetspot and really quick startup. If you're not landing it consistently, you are either spamming it or haven't practiced enough. If you have the spacing down, you can use it anywhere, which speaks to the versatility of the move. Practice the spacing, learn setups from D-Tilt, Nair 1, and Phantom, and you shouldn't have to worry about the sourspot. The sourspot is a punishment for trying to abuse the move.

As far as keep away goes, you have plenty of other options. Phantom, Nayru, Nair, and yes, even sweetspot Fair/Bair can all stuff an aggressive opponent. Smart use of Farore's Wind and good old fashioned foresight to not put yourself in these situations can help as well.

A more safe sourspot isn't going to change the opportunity loss on whiff or be a better option to wall opponents than the other options I mentioned. It at best is going to reward bad play, not further good play. Up-air, F-Tilt, Din's Fire, and Phantom were good buffs to under tuned rewards. Sourspot buff or changing Fair entirely is rewarding bad play and likely isn't going to further Zelda much, if at all.

One person here said that she has aerials similar to Mac and while I disagree with that, I still can see where this impression comes from.

This person is very, very, misguided. Say what you will about their size, lots of characters would love to have her hitbox properties and disjoints.

having mediocre frame data

What are we defining this as? Most of her moves have single digit startups and the ones that don't are situational by design or have other properties. About the only thing I can really classify as mediocre is her grab.

 

[Lacrimosa]

is a bit trickier since she's a lot more polarizing than Wii Fit IMO. She suffers from being slow and having mediocre frame data and range, but also has a pretty well-rounded moveset and a good zoning and anti-zoning game. She can do well against a lot of the mid/high tier zoners and even a few top tiers but will struggle against some of the other high/top tier characters .

Meru seems to start believing that this MU is more towards even. Zelda straight up kills him whenever he is off-stage, Nayru catches airdodges to ledge and upB gets deleted by the Phantom. Europe has a very strong Chrom player with Lancelot from Finland.
Chrom has never been a big issue for Zelda but I agree that Roy is very painful to play against since he kills earlier and has a recovery that can't be exploited, however they have to edgeguard at higher percents and that's a free hit for her sideB.

They're defintely not as bad as I used to think especially after the buffs: Phantom in the Chrom MU and Din in the Roy/Chrom MU.

Also Zelda has range on her tilts (especially upTilt) .Her aerials have big hitboxes outside of fAir/bair. Both dAir and upAir linger for a long time and upAir is bigger than 's now (afaik) and nair also has respectable range. The upAir buffs also make it much easier to set up ledgetraps because now you can't just jump over the Phantom in order to escape them. There are still characters that can escape it more freely ( are barely affected by it and two of these chars are her worst MU).
However, Ven caught Glutonny with some ledgetraps or made him waste the bike for escaping one.


Anyway, I don't see that she's lacking range. Her range is big but moves have endlag so maybe that's influencing the "no range" impression, however swords still outrange her, especially ).

As for : I don't think this MU is that difficult anymore. Ven and other Zelda players started using the RAR variant of the Phantom more often now (after a lot of talk about it). If that's actually getting implemented more fluently in her gameplan then one of the most annoying tools Falco has is just gone because Phantom blocks the lasers, meaning it gives her a better on-stage presence and imo a superior neutral game.

 

[SwagGuy99]

What are we defining this as? Most of her moves have single digit startups and the ones that don't are situational by design or have other properties. About the only thing I can really classify as mediocre is her grab.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Her moves in terms of startup lag are perfectly fine. I was more talking about endlag. Granted, not every move of hers has a lot of endlag, but some of them do and I do think it's worth mentioning.

 

[Gleam]

Calling ZSS mid tier is an insult to mid tiers. That’s why I hate it when players underrate their characters. Calling a slew of high tiers mid tier. Sonic? Mid tier. Ike? Mid tier. Cloud? Mid tier. Marth? Mid tier. Young Link? Mid Tier. Ryu? Mid tier. It goes on and on, and as soon as a player does bad with a powerful character something dumb is said like, “lol Inkling is mid tier”. Absolutely obnoxious.

heavily struggled with results in comparison to his popularity. Although his Orion Stats painted him within the Top 25 or so but he was earning popularity, even to this day of a Top 10 character. Cloud, especially Pre-Patch was a difficult character to judge and for me personally, often skated the line between Mid Tier to Upper Mid. But it needs to be said that, in comparison to those around him, Cloud was nowhere near the same level of results at the time and at this point, even at the time now.

Has effectively remained stagnant within the #40 range, barely making impact beyond that. Let's be honest, MKLeo is the only reason this character was pushed as much as he was and even Leo knew well enough the limited of Ike. In Phase 01 of Orion, Ike was a resounding #20 and now he's sometimes lucky to break the #40 range at times. It's obvious that this character no longer holds the same level of attention or strength he was perceptionally had in the past.

Is a harder character to judge due to that issue of having to be related to Lucina and thus, hard to really judge based on results. But unfortunately there were still those fundamental problems in comparison to his better clone. Leo's actions with Marth that one time kind of painted that respective picture of what was wrong with Marth and why he didn't trying to pursue further career in using him.


much like Marth, was heavily overshadowed by the superiority of his echo in Ken whom, until recently, was having a hard time breaking the #30 range on Orion. Now a days with the patches, Ken himself has jumped up to extreme measures and it can at least be argued that Ryu should be praised for similar circumstances. But it took some time before Ken himself started reaching numbers that might be indicative of a High Tier character.

I bring this up because a lot of the examples you gave, don't have the results to express a "High Tier" didn't have the results in the past, in some cases, is kind of hard to describe the cutoff line between Upper Mid and Low High. There is this strange inability to really point out where the difference between these two tiers (and maybe all of them.)

I think you could make a fine argument that is a Mid Tier. A really good, Upper Mid Tier. I'd personally paint him more onthe Low High end, but it just goes to show the insignificant difference these Tiers have at times. I'd say the same thing about and I wouldn't hold it against anyone if they held these characters to either side. I think it does come down to a personal perception of how you feel the balance to be.

Again, I think it's true for the other sides too. Where does High Tier end and Top Tier begin? is someone I argue shouldn't be a Top Tier but a High Tier, but there are plenty of people who would argue that Lucina represents the necessary functions to be a Top Tier.

There are some characters who I do think are skewed by perception. should've been thrown down into Bottom 5 by the time the 1st month of Ultimate was over and it baffles me to this day how it took this long for people to realize, yeah maybe this character is junk. But a lot of others, I can perfectly understand the perception of placement they have.

Perhaps this is another reason why the balance to Ultimate is so much better than it was in the past because it is difficult at times to know where the lines to be drawn are. There's a possibility that we may not even have a Low Tier and that includes and. Which just kind of goes to show how fluctuating Mid Tier as a whole is.

Now don't worry, I understand the gist of your post and that players should be more confident within the scope of what their characters can do. It's just that many of the examples you gave in itself could be painted as Mid Tiers.

 

[$.A.F.]

Byleth winning one game with the best player in the world by far against the one top tier matchup we all agreed they’d win isn’t that big of a deal IMO. But what we should be talking about is . Holy cow those buffs have been working out. Personally I think he’s a solid high tier if not better now.

 

[Djmarcus44]

SwagGuy99 , While I have heard/read about WFT possibly being a high mid tier or a high tier, I don't see these discussions mention his/her disadvantage state outside of maybe claiming the character has a good recovery.

Their dair is frame 15-20 and -7 on shield, but the range of the move isn't that great. They seem to struggle a bit in this area compared to Hero, a character that is considered to struggle in this area. WFT is also a tall and floaty midweight without a combo breaker. Their disadvantage doesn't seem that good, but I am not sure if it is below average. I admit that I am not an expert on WFT, but I have done a little research .

Disadvantage states aren't really well categorized outside of obviously good ones and bad ones.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Seems like Ven had particularly rough bracket luck at Frostbite. Not only did he have to fight two top players (Tweek and Glutonny), but both of them play Wario, which seems like a really rough matchup for Zelda. Her low airspeed and lack of reliable air-to-air spacing tools mean Wario can easily weave around her. In fighting Tweek and Gluto, I saw Ven try to pressure from afar with Phantom and Din's Fire, but Phantom only covers so much space, and Din's is pretty easy for Wario to dodge. Meanwhile, the more Zelda slows the game down, the more time she gives Wario to charge Waft. I'm impressed that Ven got Gluto to game 5, though.

I got the chance to practice against a Sonic recently, who proceeded to destroy me over and over in multiple games. Out of dozens of games, I won about two. One of the core things I realized I did wrong was that I was used to just throwing out attacks preemptively to try and take up space, and Sonic can punish these things like no one else. My only wins came from when I took the time to be more observant, and hitting attack buttons only when I thought it mattered. I think this is part of why others dislike Sonic so much. There's a certain desire to just...throw out attacks, and Sonic poops all over that. And when you just want to chase him down and make him pay, well, he's the fastest thing ali-eee-ive.

It wasn't until I began looking at James Chen's First Attack video that I found someone accurately describe the difference in mindset. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL45-KVgrSkf6CfB30eMjvcqf8O-WTByp2

In particular, two things he mentions are 1) economy of buttons in neutral, i.e. only throw out attacks with the intent to accomplish something instead of just doing it just to do it, and 2) when you just throw out attacks because you just want it to happen instead of doing it in response to how your opponent is playing, you're not playing footsies, you're playing "hopesies." That's "I hope this attack might connect" vs. "I think this attack is the right choice to make in this situation."

Sonic is amazing at footsies, but he crushes hopesies like nobody's business. And what I've realized is that a lot of Smash players, who are used to having overtuned catch-all options on their characters, get away with a lot of hopesies.

Experienced players struggling with Sonic remind me of new players struggling with Ganon, in a way. You really have to be careful with taking action, whether shielding, jumping, attacking, whatever, though obviously the margin for error against Sonic is much thinner than with Ganon.

As for Sonic's bait and punish style, it's obviously strong on its own merits, but a lot of the legal stages are very large, which is a buff for him. Not really a topic for this thread, but while some of the power of camping/hit and run is inherent to the game, a portion of it is self-inflicted.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

SwagGuy99 , While I have heard/read about WFT possibly being a high mid tier or a high tier, I don't see these discussions mention his/her disadvantage state outside of maybe claiming the character has a good recovery.

Their dair is frame 15-20 and -7 on shield, but the range of the move isn't that great. They seem to struggle a bit in this area compared to Hero, a character that is considered to struggle in this area. WFT is also a tall and floaty midweight without a combo breaker. Their disadvantage doesn't seem that good, but I am not sure if it is below average. I admit that I am not an expert on WFT, but I have done a little research .

Disadvantage states aren't really well categorized outside of obviously good ones and bad ones.

Wii Fit’s disadvantage when she’s above the stage isnt too hot. She has means to stall a bit, and deep breathing shifts her mobility stats when trying to land which is helpful. She doesn’t have a move she can land with without deep breathing, one she can throw out break strings and so on.

Now when she’s off stage it’s solid. Given her header, sun salutation, means to stall, space to get deep breathing, etc. Wii Fit plays at the ledge for a reason, she’s comfortable there outside of her bad MUs.

 

[L9999]

Calling ZSS mid tier is an insult to mid tiers. That’s why I hate it when players underrate their characters. Calling a slew of high tiers mid tier. Sonic? Mid tier. Ike? Mid tier. Cloud? Mid tier. Marth? Mid tier. Young Link? Mid Tier. Ryu? Mid tier. It goes on and on, and as soon as a player does bad with a powerful character something dumb is said like, “lol Inkling is mid tier”. Absolutely obnoxious.

Players are more likely to underrate a character because they know their weaknesses like nobody else can and tunnel vision on it, Game and Watch was considered trash because Fair was different, ignoring all his...silly attributes. Some players are more honest and focused than others of course. MK Leo said with no hesitation "Joker is broken" when he started winning with him.

I mean, you either have the spacing or you don't. This isn't Melee Zelda with an obvious but awkward sweetspot or Smash 4 Zelda with a small sweetspot and very laggy frame data. Ultimate Zelda has a generous sweetspot and really quick startup. If you're not landing it consistently, you are either spamming it or haven't practiced enough. If you have the spacing down, you can use it anywhere, which speaks to the versatility of the move. Practice the spacing, learn setups from D-Tilt, Nair 1, and Phantom, and you shouldn't have to worry about the sourspot. The sourspot is a punishment for trying to abuse the move.

As far as keep away goes, you have plenty of other options. Phantom, Nayru, Nair, and yes, even sweetspot Fair/Bair can all stuff an aggressive opponent. Smart use of Farore's Wind and good old fashioned foresight to not put yourself in these situations can help as well.

A more safe sourspot isn't going to change the opportunity loss on whiff or be a better option to wall opponents than the other options I mentioned. It at best is going to reward bad play, not further good play. Up-air, F-Tilt, Din's Fire, and Phantom were good buffs to under tuned rewards. Sourspot buff or changing Fair entirely is rewarding bad play and likely isn't going to further Zelda much, if at all.


This person is very, very, misguided. Say what you will about their size, lots of characters would love to have her hitbox properties and disjoints.

I was the one who compared Zelda to Mac, but nobody likes reading! On paper and practice her aerials exist unlike Mac, but when she is forced into positions in which she has to engage into air to air combat or air to ground combat she flops hard because she can't cover the space directly in front of her, unlike most viable characters in the game. Nair can sometimes work but it can only do so much. To be fair with Zelda's disadvantage, it is less about her aerials being poor in aerial combat and more that she is a giant target who cannot retaliate when she gets hit, but in regard to my comments about her Fair it is not a matter of "not practicing enough." The Zelda players who actually attend tournaments and get their matches recorded show us that she really lacks that tool.

https://youtu.be/Ea8mk1oH3k4

Salem VS Bonren. In many instances Bonren by instinct uses Fair to get Salem off him, but because sourspot Fair is total trash he either gets punished, achieves nothing, or doesn't do anything and gets punished anyway. It is an objective and undeniable fact that Zelda's sourspot Fair severely limits her, Bonren wouldn't be forced to attempt risky options just to get Salem off him if sourspot Fair wasn't a guaranteed punishment. Bonren got some kills because of the sourspot, but those are gimmicks, they are not consistent and do not make up for the lost opportunity of having a neutral tool to use against characters who aren't potatoes like Hero.

https://youtu.be/f1h3IIZvFmA

Ven VS a Ridley player. Ridley is so fat that sweetspot Fair can actually hit with some consistency. But even against a fat seal like Ridley the lack of a Fair really limited Ven on getting Ridley off him. He had to use DAIR from the ledge to hit RIDLEY, because Fair would achieve nothing. Any other character would have used a Fair or Nair in those ledge situations and get Ridley off him. Ffs, in some parts Ven has to use Phantom as his Fair because Fair is too trash to get the job done.

https://youtu.be/zmAyy7Pmdy4

Ven VS Gluttony, same deal. Zelda doesn't do too shabby here, but she still has blindspots that Wario can exploit. Glutto so many times locked Ven into her shield, at a range that would normally be unsafe. But because she doesn't have a Fair Glutto is welcomed to pressure her for free until her shield runs out. The Phantom and Din's Fire can only do so much because you can only do them safely at a set distance.

Now, what makes trap based characters good? They can punish you for attempting to get in. When you get near Snake you have to be worried about Utilt or Dash Attack because they are fast enough to punish you while you are still dealing with the grenades. R.O.B has Gyro and laser as his obstacles, and you still have to deal with his tilts and Fair. Pac-Man same deal, Young Link same deal, Rosa same deal. When Zelda lays her traps, she leaves this diagonal blindspot that cannot be covered most of the time. She can't just throw out the phantom at her leisure and punish the attempted approach with Fair. Technically she can, but the inherent unsafety of it prevents her from interrupting the opponent from getting past her traps. A potato like Hero or Ridley gets destroyed by Zelda of course, but what about ZSS, Wario, and so forth? She will need an inmediate and safe response to their approaches. Even if Zelda wins the match, it was a tribulation for the player because she can't just eat approaches or demand space like other characters can.

Zelda would rather have a tool that benefits her already existing repertoire of keep away moves than a situational gimmick, having more options is a good thing. Her Fair doesn't have to be amazing, it has to do something period. It is not just my opinion, I am sure Ven more than anybody else has "practiced the spacing" but still can't work around those blindspots. Ven, Bonren, and Zelda herself should not be punished for attempting something as simple as getting their opponent off them, that design philosophy is bull****. Roy's Fair has a sourspot too but it is still more productive than Zelda's.

 

[Rizen]

It goes on and on, and as soon as a player does bad with a powerful character something dumb is said like, “lol Inkling is mid tier”. Absolutely obnoxious.

Players tend to kneejerk as soon as a character drops a little (Fox, PT).

There are some characters who I do think are skewed by perception. should've been thrown down into Bottom 5 by the time the 1st month of Ultimate was over and it baffles me to this day how it took this long for people to realize, yeah maybe this character is junk. But a lot of others, I can perfectly understand the perception of placement they have.

Ganon was lower mid tier early on because nobody had been buffed and there was a vast herd of completely nonviable characters under him. Now over many months the majority of them have received significant buffs and passed him. Ganon's a huge victim of the power creep.

Byleth winning one game with the best player in the world by far against the one top tier matchup we all agreed they’d win isn’t that big of a deal IMO. But what we should be talking about is . Holy cow those buffs have been working out. Personally I think he’s a solid high tier if not better now.

Yeah toast got a lot out of YL's buffs for Uair (Dtilt to Uair killed when it wouldn't have before in sets like vs kameme), Fthrow killing, Usmash and a little bit jab. Even when Fthrow didn't kill it sent the opponent far offstage and that was a much better position for YL's intercepting. One thing that bothered me is he didn't work Zair into his game. I was playing a set vs Hero last week and when he got bounce, Zair was a huge help. It really fills in YL's game when projectiles don't work.

 

[Tri Knight]

But what we should be talking about is . Holy cow those buffs have been working out. Personally I think he’s a solid high tier if not better now.

Called it. Told you guys his sauce just got spicy ;P

 

[StoicPhantom]

You're using characters with notoriously gangly hurtboxs to try to say that this is a widespread problem. It might surprise you that Rob is also a character that is difficult to sweetspot LK. It's not just about overall hurtbox size, it's about thickness. Snake's hurtbox happens to be really thin around where you would want to sweetspot and he shifts his hurtbox dramatically as he moves. Ridley is a similar fashion.

Salem VS Bonren

Right off the bat, Bonren missed a throw confirm because he went too far forward. It's generally enough to simply jump and LK with how big the sweetspot is. He in general has an issue with doing it too early or too far forward. That didn't really matter that much though, as he was good everywhere else. And then there is the matter of how he timed his whiffs with other hazards, that helped him avoid punishment, not that Salem was really opting to punish him period.

0:43, 0:46, and 0:59 were some examples where a grenade, Phantom, or simply not being in a position to retaliate covered his whiffs. Which would fall under

good old fashioned foresight

And he still managed to connect Fair, including those D-Tilt setups and he still managed to handle disadvantage, by using Nayru's Love and even well timed airdodges. And he beat Salem, who is probably the only top player that actually has a handle on Zelda and what she does. There are no flukes or gimmicks here, that was solid play, even if his Fair spacing wasn't so good.

Ven VS a Ridley

3:22 and 5:12 are perfect examples of how you can use Fair defensively and escape pressure. 7:31-7:36 is an example of good spacing that can bait your opponent into your LK. If you notice, ven also starting mixing up his ledge getup by utilizing Nayrus Love, all of her aerials, and good stalling and spacing to create openings.

He had to use DAIR from the ledge to hit RIDLEY, because Fair would achieve nothing.

Dair is a better option in those cases, because Fair won't kill there and Dair has follow ups into LK, Up-B and Up-air. It has a larger hitbox and is easier to hit from that angle. There's nothing wrong with that, not every move is going to be the best option in ever situation.

Ffs, in some parts Ven has to use Phantom as his Fair because Fair is too trash to get the job done.

That is literally what Phantom is for. It's her spacing tool and a far better one than any sourspot could ever be.

Also notice how ven used LK much less than Bonren and subsequently whiffed much less than Bonren. Part of practicing LK, is knowing when to use it and how to adjust spacing for certain hitboxs and situations. Spacing LK is going to be different on Snake and Joker than it is going to be for K. Rool and DK. ven knows and he was sweetspotting this Ridley player just fine, even from difficult positions. You can especially tell, as he was aiming for Ridley's head, which is the proper spacing.

It's not an aggression or offensive tool, it's more a defensive and punish tool. By defensive, I mean you bait your opponent into running into it. You pull, not push.

Ven VS Gluttony, same deal. Zelda doesn't do too shabby here,

Then what's the problem? ven had a respectable loss to a top player using a top character that frustrates other top players with top characters. Gluttony outplayed ven, no amount of Fair changes was going to prevent that. If anything, this goes to show how good Zelda is, despite what the community refuses to believe. How many low and mid tier characters can say they can keep up with Gluttony's Wario?

I was going to find other matches with defensive Fair spacing and aerials in general, but these ones worked out just fine, contrary to what you were trying to portray them as. Go back and watch those matches, especially versus Gluttony. Look at how often ven mixed things up, both in neutral and in disadvantage. Look at how explosive Fair made his advantage state. Zelda has lots of options and ven knows how to utilize most of them. That's what top Zelda play looks like.


She is fine. Her balance is almost perfect and there isn't anything that really stands out in those videos. The fact that only the top 10 seem to be consistently beating ven, and some just barely, should be a testament to how not struggling Zelda is. Roy's sourpots are part of his combo game, Zelda's are a balance thing. You don't want people to be able to freely spam LK or "cheesy kills" will actually be a real thing.

Last I checked, Wario and ZSS are difficult for lots of characters, not just Zelda. Waft setups and Flip Kick are probably overtuned options and not even MKLeo's Joker or Nairo's Palutena can always get around them. If those are considered your worst MUs, and for the record I don't think Wario is that bad for Zelda, the you're doing pretty good.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Really nice example on how to fight a seemingly bad MU for a character, in this case Ness against Shulk.
A set worth watching and FOW takes full advantage of all of Ness' move in order to beat Nicko, especially the usage of Magnet and PK Flash are nearly immaculate her and it's also a set that shows that Ness doesn't always have to worry when being off-stage. Nicko only caught Fow once but I think Nicko could've been a tad more agressive off-stage.
I just hope FOW will be able to compete on a larger scale again.

As for Zelda and Wario: It's still my firm belief that this MU is even at worst. Glutonny even put it as losing for Wario at one point in time and he fights Zeldas in Europe with Naskino and Meru.