Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NairWizard]

Pikachu seems top tier until you actually look at the numbers. He loops someone and does 30-40%--and here you have Wolf f-air f-air d-throw dash attack or b-air or whatever other tech chase he has and the opponent's at 60, or Game and Watch who just sets you to 40% out of nothing. Then Wolf has like twice the range, and both have twice the safety. But, people don't seem to look too closely at the numbers. They're just like, "Pikachu is small, must be best in the game!" Almost every single top player is guilty of doing this. Just look at the numbers; watch how many hard reads ESAM makes in advantage to eke out the kind of damage numbers he does, and it's not hard to see why he's the only Pikachu doing so well. It's not complicated, but it apparently has to be.

 

[Kiligar]

Yeah, ZSS is the best character in the game. Roy is a low top tier, jab ac bair is so stupid, and despite being a swordie he gets ridiculous damage off of grabs. Game&watch could be top tier as well.

The reason I have such a negative lens when it comes towards the balance of Ultimate is that all mid tiers get torn apart by either ZSS, Pikachu or Joker. -2 matchup or worse. Many high tiers also struggle with these characters, but several of them actually have a chance or even come even. I’ve used a plethora of mid tiers and it feels bad when I go from each to each, Pit to Corrin to Mii brawler to Ridley, fighting one character, Pikachu sucks for all of them. If you ignore the lower half of the cast and focus on high tiers and up, probably starting with Falco whom I think is the high tier gatekeeper, you can put in enough of a fight where you feel like you have a chance. But if you’ve only used mid tiers since the games release and that’s what I’ve done, it feels disappointing that over a year later simple issues with your characters still exist. Moving from forum to forum seeing people complain that characters are falling out of x move doesn’t give me a good perspective of a balanced game. I started using my first high tier, Toon link, and it’s interesting that I can actually play the game against tough characters and cheese them although top tiers are still oppressive (ZSS, Joker). Don’t get me wrong, this game has much better balance than any Smash game before it but it still has some way to go. This patch in particular, 7.0 was pretty disappointing, many characters who desperately needed fixes and buffs got skipped over. Rekzius’s video about patch 7.0 somewhat sums up my thoughts.
https://youtu.be/7pohBx6Pt2w

 

[PK Gaming]

Pikachu seems top tier until you actually look at the numbers. He loops someone and does 30-40%--and here you have Wolf f-air f-air d-throw dash attack or b-air or whatever other tech chase he has and the opponent's at 60, or Game and Watch who just sets you to 40% out of nothing. Then Wolf has like twice the range, and both have twice the safety. But, people don't seem to look too closely at the numbers. They're just like, "Pikachu is small, must be best in the game!" Almost every single top player is guilty of doing this. Just look at the numbers; watch how many hard reads ESAM makes in advantage to eke out the kind of damage numbers he does, and it's not hard to see why he's the only Pikachu doing so well. It's not complicated, but it apparently has to be.

I honestly really hate this idea of Pikachu being "Extremely Top Tier" that many players buy into without thinking about it critically. It's just this weird given,
considering tournament data and even just like, ESAM's own performance makes it clear that the character isn't that dominant. It feels like a weird leftover from the Smash 4 era where the same thing happened, with Pikachu being overranked by tons of people until the end. Anyway, Meru basically summed it up in his tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, how relevant were the Arsene nerfs in the MKLeo vs. Prodigy set at Frostbite?

 

[NairWizard]

Was making a post about just that. The nerfs were huge. MKLeo allowed Mario to survive to Rage percents because he lost Arsene before he could get the kill--Prodigy just held on to the stock and used 120%+ damage Mario to get KOs off the top at ridiculous percents (like 82). Throw in a few spikes at 80ish and you have a character basically smash 4 ZSS style 0-deathing you, but it's off of a safe on shield up-air instead of a reactable tether grab.

Mario looked like a clean top tier there.

Joker? Not so much. But it's just one set, we'll see.

 

[TennisBall]

Out of curosity, how have the buffed/nerfed characters been doing at Frostbite, such as ,,,,? I haven't been able to watch it yet so I was just wondering.

 

[NairWizard]

Palutena is doing great, and is still honestly easily the best character in the game. I would make a case for Palutena over ZSS any day. Just oozes oppressive top tier qualities and good matchups.

 

[PK Gaming]

Joker's nerfs don't fundamentally change how the character is played (which is good imo) but he's significantly more punishing to play now. Mistakes shred through Arsene meter since Joker is combo food. Stuff like Arsene bair, throw combos, Up B tether, kill setups, etc solidly keep him in top tier imo, but you definitely can't get away with saying he's the best character in the game anymore (and arguably, you never could)

 

[Lacrimosa]

Out of curosity, how have the buffed/nerfed characters been doing at Frostbite, such as ,,,,? I haven't been able to watch it yet so I was just wondering.

Zelda is 33rd again, Ven has to fight Glutonny in losers now (rip btw.).

 

[PK Gaming]

Out of curosity, how have the buffed/nerfed characters been doing at Frostbite, such as ,,,,? I haven't been able to watch it yet so I was just wondering.

Impressive showing from Void's Sheik.

 

[Idon]

Joker was losing every neutral interaction anyways. Outside of -rakarn, it's a purely offensive tool. Whether Arsene was procced or not doesn't matter if he barely gets to use it.

 

[Anomika]

MkLeo usually brought back in losers, getting upset a few times during his Ultimate career. Though I'll agree, getting 3-0d from not a top 10 player is pretty astonishing. Joker's down gun nerf is definitely noticeable. I'll think how significant the nerfs are more after the tournament ends. If not the winner of the tournament, he's likely going to make in top 8 at the very least (which for the #1 player actually sounds kinda bad)

 

[NairWizard]

This seems like the most upsets we've ever seen in a smash ultimate tournament. And they're dominant upsets too, not close game 5s. I said before that the last patch changed the meta, and it seems to be showing. Maybe the upsets aren't being caused by Sheik and Cloud and Ryu, but there are so many subtle ripple effects from the shield changes and the nerfs. Paseriman vs Marss and Mkleo vs Prodigy are the most obvious examples, but I saw some interesting shield interactions in Gluto vs Wrath too.

Shield changes are always always a bigger deal than you expect. Shield is the most fundamental mechanic in all of smash.

Remember, when did ZeRos smash 4 tournament win streak come to an end? It was right after a patch that changed shield mechanics and buffed ZSS.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I hope this at least helps me not get seeded low like, I’m tired of playing two top 10s for 33rd

— ven ➤ ??? (@venason_) February 23, 2020

3-2 against Glutonny and I understand him.
60th seed is really too low.

 

[Rizen]

I honestly really hate this idea of Pikachu being "Extremely Top Tier" that many players buy into without thinking about it critically. It's just this weird given,
considering tournament data and even just like, ESAM's own performance makes it clear that the character isn't that dominant. It feels like a weird leftover from the Smash 4 era where the same thing happened, with Pikachu being overranked by tons of people until the end. Anyway, Meru basically summed it up in his tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Once there was a player named ESAM who thought Pikachu was the best character in the game. Then one night he was visited by three spirits. The ghost of rats past showed Pikachu not getting top 20 results for season 1 and season 2. The ghost of rats present showed Pikachu not getting top 20 in season 3. And the ghost of rats future showed him still not getting top 20. But ESAM's gonna ESAM and rate Pikachu #1 no matter what (seriously does he want his character nerfed?). And that's why Rizen got fed up and stopped talking about the rats.

 

[NairWizard]

I know I'm posting a lot today (because this tournament is so extremely hype), but last thought: MKLeo may just be my favorite smash player of literally all time. Man. No one like Leo to take all established theory in any domain and just trash it. So hype, every time, every set, every tournament.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I've lost to pikachu with PT but also won against him and I find he's NOT top of top tier material. He has thunderbolt projectile spam for days but it's surprisingly easy for squirtle to run through, duck, and the thunderbolt goes right over squirtles' head. I also killed a pikachu with squirtles' upb at less than 80% due to pikachu's lightweight. You need to consistently hit pikachu's good moves and also need to AVOID being hit due to how light pikachu is. Pikachu's evasiveness may be excellent but as previously stated it doesn't have the results or the buttons to be considered the top of top tiers like players keep placing it at.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

OK, I hope this tournament can put to bed the myth that Palutena was "lowkey buffed". Nairo is missing SO MANY dthrow bair confirms, and I can count a few instances (like with Tweek) where it straight up cost him the game.

 

[NotLiquid]

Call it bracket luck, call it a consequence of an insanely stacked tournament with some of the craziest upsets in Ultimate history, but the breakout character/player of Frostbite for me really has to be Wrath .

He's added Kameme, Paseriman and Glutonny on his kill list - the two latter of which were 3-0 sweeps. I've got nothing but immense levels of respect for Sonic's player base making the character work so deceptively well in spite of everyone's assumption (mine included!) that he was a mid-tier character. Players have managed to make his spin dash work in even more tricky ways despite the inability to cross-up on shields; now players space and mix it up a lot more through various jump and attack cancels. FSmash and FTilt are kind of insane, and despite his non-functional up air it was a complete mindscrew moment seeing Wrath actually employ its jank into drag down combos. This is the kind of stuff Inkling mains meme that their character should be doing with their up air, and yet here's a Sonic player making this kind of impractical play actually look OD as hell.

SolidSense's post about Pikachu being the kind of character who doesn't really get that much damage out of his loops really does feel reminiscent of Sonic in a lot of ways; in normal circumstances he's not the kind of character who will be comboing you for oodles of damage but the way this character zig zags across the screen has to be some of the most aggravating type of spacing to deal with and he just manages to be so good at patient play.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

There's nothing to respect about Sonic's player base, they're just exploiting his toxic game design for ugly wins. Sonic's don't get better in proportion to their skill, they get better based on how shameless they're willing to be.

 

[TennisBall]

There's nothing to respect about Sonic's player base, they're just exploiting his toxic game design for ugly wins. Sonic's don't get better in proportion to their skill, they get better based on how shameless they're willing to be.

Better this than what we got in Smash 4.

 

[Gleam]

A good question now to ask is, did Frostbite change anyone's perception on (Byleth?) This was Byleth's time to shine, to prove that her few wins were not just the case of lack of knowledge or common ground players. If I recall there was no Byleths in Top 96, but then again there was no or . Besides, sometimes it's not about placement as it is a perception you can get from watching others play.

So, again a question to ask now. Regardless of her actual placement, did Byleth feel like a character who under the right circumstances, could make a name, if niche, for herself? Or did this just provide more evidence that Byleth needs a lot of work?

 

[Tri Knight]

There's nothing to respect about Sonic's player base, they're just exploiting his toxic game design for ugly wins. Sonic's don't get better in proportion to their skill, they get better based on how shameless they're willing to be.

I'm not gonna disrespect Sonic's player base because at the end of the day everyone hates every character for any reason imaginable. My main "spams too much," for instance.

That being said, Sonic just so happens to be my absolute least favorite character in the game. I think Sonic is just an excruciating character to play against in general. Even watching Sonic in play is frustrating. But he's always been one of my least liked characters.

Toast had a fantastic run regardless but you can tell he started losing a LOT of patience with Wrath's Sonic towards the end and I don't blame him. It takes a lot to just sit there and watch Sonic spin back and forth like a pendulum, waiting for a chance to hit him. But the lack of patience is also what spelled out his defeat.

Unfortunately, playing against a Sonic is almost like playing against the clock. You need extreme patience to fight Sonic because of his constant and safe movement around stage and hit/run playstyle. It's when you lose that patience that Sonic starts to eat at you and punish you for it.

 

[Rizen]

Sonic's not a broken character and Sonic players have as much skill as any other character mains. Like Tri Knight said, you have to be patient and know the MU.

 

[Tri Knight]

Sonic's not a broken character and Sonic players have as much skill as any other character mains. Like Tri Knight said, you have to be patient and know the MU.

Young Link main with the Top 8 tho

 

[SwagGuy99]

Elegant has been on a roll, placing 13th overall. This placing is much more in line with what I would have expected him to be getting in Smash 4. He also upset Shuton and nearly upset Dabuz as well.

He was doing a really good job of showcasing how to play Luigi more defensively in some of the earlier sets from yesterday (using z-air and fireball to keep the opponents at a distance a lot of the time and capitalizing off of any neutral interactions that left openings in his opponents) but today, (especially in the set against Shuton) Elegant showcased how good Luigi's offense and advantage state are and why he's such a scary character to fight against.

I'm hoping that he can continue this momentum for a while, because I think Elegant has the potential to be a top 20 player, he just needs more results to back it up. This was a great start though.

Also, we seem to be continuing the lack of results from that we've had for a while. IMO he's in a similar situation to where he's probably a mid tier after 7.0.0, but why would you ever pick him over if you really want to win? He's fine as a secondary against some zoners and slower characters IMO, but he's not a solo-mainable character and is inferior to Mario in pretty much every way except OOS option and kill potential.

 

[Rizen]

Young Link main with the Top 8 tho

Yeah that's pretty cool. At first YL players were dropping like flies so it's nice to see one get through.

 

[NairWizard]

And Byleth wins his first S-tier! Woohoo!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Frostbite 2020 (S Tier)

1st: MkLeo
2nd: Maister
3rd: Tweek
4th: Tea
5th: Dabuz
5th: Wrath
7th: Zackray
7th: Toast
9th: Nietono
9th: Light
9th: Nairo
9th: Paseriman
13th: VoiD
13th: Elegant
13th: MattyG
13th: Samsora
17th: Marss
17th: Raffi-X
17th: Shuton
17th: Kola
17th: Glutonny
17th: Kameme
17th: Dark Wizzy
17th: Prodigy
25th: Cosmos
25th: Stroder
25th: Mystearica
25th: Salem
25th: Grayson
25th: Charliedaking
25th: MuteAce
25th: LeoN
33rd: NAKAT
33rd: Ravenking
33rd: BestNess
33rd: varun
33rd: Riddles
33rd: ven
33rd: Kome
33rd: king_chris
33rd: Jw
33rd: ScAtt
33rd: Vinny G
33rd: Raito
33rd: WaDi
33rd: Ned
33rd: Roxas
33rd: Fatality
49th: ????
49th: Comet
49th: Sonido
49th: Slime
49th: Zinoto
49th: Ksev
49th: Puppeh
49th: Zenkai
49th: Pandarian
49th: Gackt
49th: Epic_Gabriel
49th: LingLing
49th: Aaron
49th: Suinoko
49th: Ryuga
49th: MastaMario


The Ultimate Performance 3 (C Tier) *Europe regional
1st: iStudying
2nd: Meru
3rd: Longo
4th: Lancelot
5th: Antireflex
5th: Azrael
7th: Supahsemmie
7th: S1
9th: Space
9th: Yetey
9th: Young Eevey
9th: Grove


Salty Arena Cup Ultimate 5 (C Tier) *Europe regional
1st: Maeda
2nd: Flow
3rd: Oryon
4th: TriM
5th: Leon
5th: Otakuni


LVL UP EXPO 2020 (B Tier, for some reason)
1st: FOW
2nd: Nicko
3rd: AZ
4th: Grandmaster
5th: Tux
5th: Tornato
7th: Caius
7th: theedium


DreamHack Anaheim 2020 (C Tier)
1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: Dakpo
3rd: ANTi
4th: Tearbear
5th: Lumbre
5th: Eon
7th: Marvelous_Marco
7th: Cyro
9th: SweetT
9th: Razo
9th: KiraFlax
9th: Paper


There is also a C tier event called Fight Together, a tournament from El Salvador, but the tournament is not yet done and the characters the players use is not yet known.


-------------------------------

Before we begin "the biggest winners of the weekend", it should be noted that all placements involved with Frostbite should be semi-taken with a grain of salt, simply on how wild the tournament was with random upsets, as well as odd character appearances. However, it is still very notable.

Biggest winners of the weekend:
Both characters are definitely in the minds of some players thanks to Tweek finally bringing both of them back after so long. He was used Wolf a few times in the past recently, but it definitely shined today (no pun intended).
Sonic has always gotten very strong results at top level. It is simply that instances of it happening is definitely more scattered than other high tiered characters. However with Wrath's 5th placement at the tournament, Sonic's viewpoint has definitely been cemented as a viable threat in the metagame (probably to the disgust of some people, but I think he is more exciting to watch than in SSB4).
Of course, it has to happen as Sonic's movie is a raving success, and it all of Sonic's biggest tournament successes really started to happen when Sonic's movie redesign was first introduced. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
Pretty much all the top Young Link players entered Frostbite all at once to see if they can make an impact at the tournament. However, while most YLink players got 49th place or lower, Toast, who is arguably the most inconsistent of the top YLink players results-wise, made a huge impact in the tournament. With quality wins and landing a placement at 7th, he is definitely going to put YLink in the minds of some.
VoiD got a pretty nice win today with a 13th placement, with some nice wins on some players like Goblin, Zackray, and Raffi-X. In my opinion, a lot of it has to do with VoiD being an amazing player and Sheik not being that great (and partly matchup inexperience), but he has shown a lot of cool traits Sheik can bring to the table. We will see if he can keep up these results in the future and change my mind about Sheik.
Elegant's results have continued its momentum in this tournament, with a very nice 13th placement this weekend with multiple nice wins (and was close to being placed even higher). Definitely showed off a lot of what Luigi can do in season 3, and has definitely so far backed up his PGR ranking so far.
After being barren with results in season 2, Mewtwo has finally brought up some momentum in the current metagame, which is ironic considering that Frostbite 2019 was the last tournament SDX used Mewtwo in events. We will see if this prompts people to explore the character further.


Outside of this, there is no one really qualifying as a "winner". Most of the highest placing players used characters that has already proven themselves to be pretty solid characters.

I think continues got robbed of getting some really great results, because Ven keeps running into top 10-15 players so early in bracket, which is something that has been happening to him forever now (and I like how Ven himself has started to become self-aware of this).


There is only two character where I think is a loser:
I know that it is sort of unfair to count Pikachu as a loser this weekend since ESAM didn't participate this weekend, but with characters like Chrom, Pichu, Sonic, and Cloud, getting a very great weekend, they are likely going to outplace Pikachu in the rankings by the time Orion Stats update. Definitely another blow to Pikachu's supposed "top 5" status. I feel some players are beginning to feel that as well.
Despite all the hype surrounding him after Aaron's performance in the pre-Frostbite event against Kome, and despite virtually all the top Diddy players entering the event, Diddy did not do very well this event. The highest placing Diddy player is Aaron at 49th place (and Zinoto if you count him, although he used mostly Peach), and everyone else got 97th or below. Dakpo getting 2nd at DreamHack over ANTi is also cool, but it nothing really huge.

Honestly if you think Aaron's performance at the pre-Frostbite event is enough to call Diddy a "winner", then by all means.
However with Diddy not living up to the hype in the actual Frostbite event, I don't really think Diddy really "won" this weekend.


Also, I love that MkLeo brought out the for the final game simply to give the crowd what he wanted, and still sauced Maister. lol

 

[Idon]

6-0'd
and on the last game, he went with his """"""secondary""""""" that he didn't pull out the entire tournament
If this isn't a statement, I don't know what is.

2020 gonna be another year of Leo, bois.

 

[|RK|]

So let's talk about this... Does Byleth deserve to get OrionStats points for this sort of thing? I'm firmly in the "no" camp, but

 

[NairWizard]

For context on the Byleth: someone in the crowd up front said "go byleth" and Leo winked and smiled. This last set was basically glorified friendlies. He just went Byleth in the last game because Maister had basically given up by that point. I hope Das Koopa takes this into account before giving Byleth credit for this win. Game 6 of a dominant double 3-0 shouldn't count at all, imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

I would be more skeptical if his Byleth didn't soundly 2-stock Maister, and with a ton of money and cred on the line.

We've given far more credit and attention to far weaker data points.

 

[ARISTOS]

How can one man contain this much power

Honestly just in awe of MKLeo man, there's nothing quite like him

 

[|RK|]

I would be more skeptical if his Byleth didn't soundly 2-stock Maister, and with a ton of money and cred on the line.

We've given far more credit and attention to far weaker data points.

Tbh, we should stop giving those weaker points value then. I feel like if it's something we can't actually use as a discussion point in polite company, it prolly shouldn't count.

Or at the bare minimum, it shouldn't get the same value as an actual secondary winning an S-tier event.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I don't get the hate against Sonic.
Imo Wrath played his sets super-well and he took full advantage of sonic's strengths. His camping doesn't seem as degenerate as in Sm4sh if I remember Sm4sh Sonic correctly.
Yes, he isn't a combo- and neutral-heavy character as Sheik but the hate that is generated against these rather uncommon and not-flashy characters is getting out of hand since also the players get attacked verbally.

 

[Rizen]

Frostbite 2020 (S Tier)

1st: MkLeo
2nd: Maister
3rd: Tweek
4th: Tea
5th: Dabuz
5th: Wrath
7th: Zackray
7th: Toast
9th: Nietono
9th: Light
9th: Nairo
9th: Paseriman
13th: VoiD
13th: Elegant
13th: MattyG
13th: Samsora
17th: Marss
17th: Raffi-X
17th: Shuton
17th: Kola
17th: Glutonny
17th: Kameme
17th: Dark Wizzy
17th: Prodigy
25th: Cosmos
25th: Stroder
25th: Mystearica
25th: Salem
25th: Grayson
25th: Charliedaking
25th: MuteAce
25th: LeoN
33rd: NAKAT
33rd: Ravenking
33rd: BestNess
33rd: varun
33rd: Riddles
33rd: ven
33rd: Kome
33rd: king_chris
33rd: Jw
33rd: ScAtt
33rd: Vinny G
33rd: Raito
33rd: WaDi
33rd: Ned
33rd: Roxas
33rd: Fatality
49th: ????
49th: Comet
49th: Sonido
49th: Slime
49th: Zinoto
49th: Ksev
49th: Puppeh
49th: Zenkai
49th: Pandarian
49th: Gackt
49th: Epic_Gabriel
49th: LingLing
49th: Aaron
49th: Suinoko
49th: Ryuga
49th: MastaMario


The Ultimate Performance 3 (C Tier) *Europe regional
1st: iStudying
2nd: Meru
3rd: Longo
4th: Lancelot
5th: Antireflex
5th: Azrael
7th: Supahsemmie
7th: S1
9th: Space
9th: Yetey
9th: Young Eevey
9th: Grove


Salty Arena Cup Ultimate 5 (C Tier) *Europe regional
1st: Maeda
2nd: Flow
3rd: Oryon
4th: TriM
5th: Leon
5th: Otakuni


LVL UP EXPO 2020 (B Tier, for some reason)
1st: FOW
2nd: Nicko
3rd: AZ
4th: Grandmaster
5th: Tux
5th: Tornato
7th: Caius
7th: theedium


DreamHack Anaheim 2020 (C Tier)
1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: Dakpo
3rd: ANTi
4th: Tearbear
5th: Lumbre
5th: Eon
7th: Marvelous_Marco
7th: Cyro
9th: SweetT
9th: Razo
9th: KiraFlax
9th: Paper


There is also a C tier event called Fight Together, a tournament from El Salvador, but the tournament is not yet done and the characters the players use is not yet known.


-------------------------------

Before we begin "the biggest winners of the weekend", it should be noted that all placements involved with Frostbite should be semi-taken with a grain of salt, simply on how wild the tournament was with random upsets, as well as odd character appearances. However, it is still very notable.

Biggest winners of the weekend:
Both characters are definitely in the minds of some players thanks to Tweek finally bringing both of them back after so long. He was used Wolf a few times in the past recently, but it definitely shined today (no pun intended).
Sonic has always gotten very strong results at top level. It is simply that instances of it happening is definitely more scattered than other high tiered characters. However with Wrath's 5th placement at the tournament, Sonic's viewpoint has definitely been cemented as a viable threat in the metagame (probably to the disgust of some people, but I think he is more exciting to watch than in SSB4).
Of course, it has to happen as Sonic's movie is a raving success, and it all of Sonic's biggest tournament successes really started to happen when Sonic's movie redesign was first introduced. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
Pretty much all the top Young Link players entered Frostbite all at once to see if they can make an impact at the tournament. However, while most YLink players got 49th place or lower, Toast, who is arguably the most inconsistent of the top YLink players results-wise, made a huge impact in the tournament. With quality wins and landing a placement at 7th, he is definitely going to put YLink in the minds of some.
VoiD got a pretty nice win today with a 13th placement, with some nice wins on some players like Goblin, Zackray, and Raffi-X. In my opinion, a lot of it has to do with VoiD being an amazing player and Sheik not being that great (and partly matchup inexperience), but he has shown a lot of cool traits Sheik can bring to the table. We will see if he can keep up these results in the future and change my mind about Sheik.
Elegant's results have continued its momentum in this tournament, with a very nice 13th placement this weekend with multiple nice wins (and was close to being placed even higher). Definitely showed off a lot of what Luigi can do in season 3, and has definitely so far backed up his PGR ranking so far.
After being barren with results in season 2, Mewtwo has finally brought up some momentum in the current metagame, which is ironic considering that Frostbite 2019 was the last tournament SDX used Mewtwo in events. We will see if this prompts people to explore the character further.


Outside of this, there is no one really qualifying as a "winner". Most of the highest placing players used characters that has already proven themselves to be pretty solid characters.

I think continues got robbed of getting some really great results, because Ven keeps running into top 10-15 players so early in bracket, which is something that has been happening to him forever now (and I like how Ven himself has started to become self-aware of this).


There is only two character where I think is a loser:
I know that it is sort of unfair to count Pikachu as a loser this weekend since ESAM didn't participate this weekend, but with characters like Chrom, Pichu, Sonic, and Cloud, getting a very great weekend, they are likely going to outplace Pikachu in the rankings by the time Orion Stats update. Definitely another blow to Pikachu's supposed "top 5" status. I feel some players are beginning to feel that as well.
Despite all the hype surrounding him after Aaron's performance in the pre-Frostbite event against Kome, and despite virtually all the top Diddy players entering the event, Diddy did not do very well this event. The highest placing Diddy player is Aaron at 49th place (and Zinoto if you count him, although he used mostly Peach), and everyone else got 97th or below. Dakpo getting 2nd at DreamHack over ANTi is also cool, but it nothing really huge.

Honestly if you think Aaron's performance at the pre-Frostbite event is enough to call Diddy a "winner", then by all means.
However with Diddy not living up to the hype in the actual Frostbite event, I don't really think Diddy really "won" this weekend.


Also, I love that MkLeo brought out the for the final game simply to give the crowd what he wanted, and still sauced Maister. lol

Don't forget and 2 getting 9th for winners. I'd also add to the losers, even though she did really well she under-preformed previous results. The nerfs hurt.

One thing this tournament has proven is you don't need to be top tier to win big at S tier events. Look at top 8:
1st: MkLeo
2nd: Maister
3rd: Tweek
4th: Tea
5th: Dabuz
5th: Wrath
7th: Zackray
7th: Toast

After the patch the gap between top tiers and other characters has never been smaller.

 

[Idon]

So let's talk about this... Does Byleth deserve to get OrionStats points for this sort of thing? I'm firmly in the "no" camp, but

Obviously not. I really don't think that MKLeo meming on a man he has FIRMLY broken the spirit of says anything about Byleth's actual "character strength" or the amount of "representation" he actually gets.

 

[VenomSnake]

There's nothing to respect about Sonic's player base, they're just exploiting his toxic game design for ugly wins. Sonic's don't get better in proportion to their skill, they get better based on how shameless they're willing to be.

Dude, come on, you WISH you had wrath's level of patience. People who play against sonic fail to understand how despite them needing to play patiently against sonic, he needs to have an even higher level of patience to win. Wrath is doing a lot of smart things you would not understand because you don't play the character. His hitboxes (aside from his fair, bair, uair, and fsmash) and killing factor are very bad, and almost every move he has is very unsafe on shield (even more than Mac). He can't just play aggro and win, he has to play patiently and bait for openings because he sucks at actually pressuring for one unless you've spent hundreds of hours labbing spindash pressure like wrath has. He also arguably has to work for a kill harder than any other character in the game except bayo and shiek. If you are going to spout things, at least try to sound like you know what you are talking about. Sonic does require a lot of thought to win and succeed with, and this is even reflected by his relatively low pick-rate (at least for a probable high tier). Wrath might LOOK like he just spins a lot, but that's because you (as well as a lot of people who don't main the character) don't understand what he's doing. It's a conditioning tool; and its highly committal and very hard to properly utilize because it loses to virtually every move in the game due to its tiny hitbox. You can call it toxic, but quite frankly it's still far from a f3 oos option that is nearly unpunishable, or a revenge mechanic that can kill midweights at 50% with one bair, or having an fsmash that can kill as early as 60% from midstage. Sonic, besides spindash, really doesn't have any dishonest/cheesy moves (maybe fsmash, but even then that's a hard read/spacing callout). It also doesn't help that despite being a mid-lightweight, sonic has bad kill options and non-existant confirms (most of his supposed "confirms" are highly inconsistent at high %, like spincharge to fair/uair/nair, his only true confirm being nair to bair and that is super risky).


It's funny how much smash players show disdain for sonic, when most other fighting games (namely Tekken) usually require a degree of patience, movement, and have very bait-&-punish neutrals that reward not just running up and pressing buttons/spamming projectiles (or, I guess in Wario's case, sit back in neutral and basically save up for a guaranteed stock).

 

[Lacrimosa]

Btw. do we consider chars like or still as low-tier?
I think both should be out of question for this tier-placement now.