COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[matt4300]

After playing melee today, I think that a code to make the stages bigger would do good for the game.

THANK YOU KUPO now i have another person to use in my case for bigger stages... that and people seem to take your opinion more seriously seeing as how you have been a major player in the creation of brawl +

god i hope someone makes this code.. im still using small chars with squeaky voices

@osi: well it might be that you were fighting one of the hitstun breaking chars llike peach or kirby. they get out of stun way to fast for some reason. giving them an unessesary buff

 

[CyberGlitch]

Let me reiterate: making characters smaller effectively makes the levels larger while also allowing upwards gravity to be increased proportionally without nerfing recoveries. A few moves don't scale down (Dedede's waddle dees are all that come to mind) but nothing game breaking.
I recommend you try these codes together.

.9 Size Modifier (P1)
* 4A000000 90180F20
* 140000D8 3F666666
* E0000000 80008000

.9 Size Modifier (P2)
* 4A000000 90180F7C
* 140000D8 3F666666
* E0000000 80008000

.9 Size Modifier (P3)
* 4A000000 90180FD8
* 140000D8 3F666666
* E0000000 80008000

.9 Size Modifier (P4)
* 4A000000 90181034
* 140000D8 3F666666
* E0000000 80008000

Upwards Gravity 1.1 (1 Line)
* 04641520 3F8CCCCD

There's the downside of high pitched voices, but a future (probably much shorter) code should fix this.

The 90% size may be a little too small (level a little too large being the problem), I'm going to test 93% when I have time.

 

[matt4300]

as cool as this is CyberGlitch increaseing upwards gravity will STILL nerf link and sonics recovery. if all chars still recover at the same height when there small then increasing upwards gravity will STILL nerf link and sonics recoverys and leave everyones else relitively untouched. but hey as i said earlier if what falco400 said about the line limit is true then i would have no problems with upwards gravity. mostly becuase link and sonic would just get buffed recoveries ^_^

 

[KayJay]

Well for 2on2 fights, stages like FD would really be better if they were slightly bigger, but for 1on1 the Stages are really fine.
But the stagething has low priority imo, what's way more important are faster jumplaunches (without massing with the jumphigh) and momentum jumps from a dash.
And a character specific shorthop code would be the best code since dashdance for me.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

After playing melee today, I think that a code to make the stages bigger would do good for the game.

And yet anyone who suggests we make the characters smaller is ridiculed...

I did some measuring a while back on this exact topic, so here it is if anyone is interested:

Melee: Jungle Japes = 5.897 times the height of C.Falcon in length.
Brawl: Jungle Japes = 6.351 times the height of C.Falcon in length.
5.897/6.351 = 0.929 .

So to make C.Falcon be the same size in relation to JJ in Brawl as in Melee, characters should have an 0.93 size modifier.

I'm going to test 93% when I have time.

That should be the right value.

 

[Osi]

@osi: well it might be that you were fighting one of the hitstun breaking chars llike peach or kirby. they get out of stun way to fast for some reason. giving them an unessesary buff

It was vs marth/Ike/samus/lucas/falcon

 

[matt4300]

It was vs marth/Ike/samus/lucas/falcon

hmm that is odd marth samus lucas all get out of stun pretty quick but ike and falcon should be sandbags during rest combos. i guess if all that you have to do to make it normal agin is to increase the hitstun then by all means we should increase hitstun. its just a number. its how it plays that matters. go for 10 or 10.5 let us know how it works out so we will know if we all have to go up. also the higher the hitstun number the faster people fall over from samus/link Zairs XD

oh yeh and thats some good info BrutalBrutal ^_^ glad you did the grunt work.

 

[CountKaiser]

With the shield damage mod in the OP, Marth's shield breaker outright breaks the shield with a simple poke. This seems a little overpowered, considering that a broken shield leads to about 3 seconds of being completely immobile. What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

 

[petre]

With the shield damage mod in the OP, Marth's shield breaker outright breaks the shield with a simple poke. This seems a little overpowered, considering that a broken shield leads to about 3 seconds of being completely immobile. What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

my thoughts are to test the other moves that eat shields to see if they are the same way...i.e. DK side+b, jiggs side+b, and i think there's some others...if they ALL break it in one hit then we have a bit of a problem. if it's just marth for some reason, then either we leave him with that buff and people will be afraid to shield against marth, or we add that to the char-specific nerfs to be made.

 

[Osi]

hmm that is odd marth samus lucas all get out of stun pretty quick but ike and falcon should be sandbags during rest combos. i guess if all that you have to do to make it normal agin is to increase the hitstun then by all means we should increase hitstun. its just a number. its how it plays that matters. go for 10 or 10.5 let us know how it works out so we will know if we all have to go up. also the higher the hitstun number the faster people fall over from samus/link Zairs XD

oh yeh and thats some good info BrutalBrutal ^_^ glad you did the grunt work.

You know what... maybe it's that little drop in my gravity. I wouldn't think that .05 would change rest combos so much, but I'll try it out on 1.25 instead of 1.20. The only issue I have with 10% is that fox/falcon/marth are a bit OP(not broken by any means, but 0% to kill combos should be more of a rare occurrence IMO).

 

[matt4300]

You know what... maybe it's that little drop in my gravity. I wouldn't think that .05 would change rest combos so much, but I'll try it out on 1.25 instead of 1.20. The only issue I have with 10% is that fox/falcon/marth are a bit OP(not broken by any means, but 0% to kill combos should be more of a rare occurrence IMO).

yeh thats probley a good idea. after watching all your combo vids (wich are completely awsome btw) i saw a little to much rapeage from the faster chars.
i was thinking though... what if we had a hitstun specific code . so we could take down the hitstun on say fox.. and give a huge increase to sayy bowser? just a thought... i would still prefer full char balanceing with char specific buffs/nerfs. but atm ill take whatever the codemakers give us ^_^

Glad you enjoyed them! Yea the fast characters were a bit overpowered in my first few weeks of brawl+, but now that my crew knows how to counter them well they feel pretty balanced. My best characters against them atm are actually jiggly and IC lol. I did take the dash down from 1.4 to 1.2 speed. I think it's a good settings as it allows a nice speed to the ground game without breaking things like tech chasing.

well saying that jiggly and IC are your best counters to fast chars is proof enough that there a tad OP .. think about it IC rely on chain grabs and well it doesnt matter how fast you are when your in a CG , and jiggs relys on crazy juggles and WOP another strategy that kills the speed of a fast chars. but if you were like samus or link you would realy on small combos and slow projectiles to rack up damage then try to get in one of your few kill moves. the way that turns out most of the time is you get in a 3 hit combo... then the faster char gets in a 4 or 5 hit combo doing much more damage... and all or your projectiles are completely usless becuase faster chars are well 2 **** fast. all that and most of the faster chars have faster kill moves wich can be more easily spammed or comboed into. :/ see where im going with this .. then BAM its over in a flash your dead and (insert fast char here) has 70 damage

 

[Osi]

yeh thats probley a good idea. after watching all your combo vids (wich are completely awsome btw) i saw a little to much rapeage from the faster chars.
i was thinking though... what if we had a hitstun specific code . so we could take down the hitstun on say fox.. and give a huge increase to sayy bowser? just a thought... i would still prefer full char balanceing with char specific buffs/nerfs.

Glad you enjoyed them! Yea the fast characters were a bit overpowered in my first few weeks of brawl+, but now that my crew knows how to counter them well they feel pretty balanced. My best characters against them atm are actually jiggly and IC lol. I did take the dash down from 1.4 to 1.2 speed. I think it's a good settings as it allows a nice speed to the ground game without breaking things like tech chasing.

 

[-Chad-]

Basically just posting to say that my crew and I just now got around to trying these codes and stuff out, and we're having a lot more fun with Brawl now (barely played Brawl since after it came out) and I'm gonna be trying to hold Brawl+ tournies at my small tri-weeklies I hold.

Thanks to you all. : D

 

[GPDP]

Yeah, I believe the right value for character height is .93, at least as far as Captain Falcon is concerned. Marth's a bit iffy, though. I don't think they sized him up to the same proportion as they did Falcon. Maybe it's the same for other characters.

 

[Osi]

well saying that jiggly and IC are your best counters to fast chars is proof enough that there a tad OP .. think about it IC rely on chain grabs and well it doesnt matter how fast you are when your in a CG , and jiggs relys on crazy juggles and WOP another strategy that kills the speed of a fast chars. but if you were like samus or link you would realy on small combos and slow projectiles to rack up damage then try to get in one of your few kill moves. the way that turns out most of the time is you get in a 3 hit combo... then the faster char gets in a 4 or 5 hit combo doing much more damage... and all or your projectiles are completely usless becuase faster chars are well 2 **** fast. all that and most of the faster chars have faster kill moves wich can be more easily spammed or comboed into. :/ see where im going with this .. then BAM its over in a flash your dead and (insert fast char here) has 70 damage

I worded it badly. I use IC and jiggly as my best characters against falcon/ike/samus/marth/zelda/PT/tlink/ganon/sonic. I also main falcon and fox, but my crew is learning to counter them well, so it's not as easy a win. The hitstun did a ton for IC, I honestly expect them to hit top tier... which is insane.

 

[plasmatorture]

my thoughts are to test the other moves that eat shields to see if they are the same way...i.e. DK side+b, jiggs side+b, and i think there's some others...if they ALL break it in one hit then we have a bit of a problem. if it's just marth for some reason, then either we leave him with that buff and people will be afraid to shield against marth, or we add that to the char-specific nerfs to be made.

I can confirm DK's and Jiggs' don't break shields in one hit.

It takes 2-3 pounds to break a shield, probably more if they're real good about releasing it.

I haven't noticed a problem with Marth doing that but the more I think about it the less I think I've seen his B actually hit a shield since we added the code.

 

[Osi]

no, it shouldn't. for the sake of brawl+ to attract new members, wavedash should never, ever be in the final version. people will think brawl+'s answer to brawl's slow speed is wavedashing. they will ignore all the other changes.

this will KILL brawl+. there's no way around it. there's no way of denying this. the whole point of brawl+ is to show that we are beyond melee 2.0, this is a new game. we aren't reaching into the past's engine exploits to make it competitive, it just needs a few tweaks.. not a whole cosmetic overhaul of the metagame.

the very sight of wavedash turns people's stomachs. you cannot stop people from feeling this way. the audience we want to attract are melee veterans, but MOST of the people who see this will be brawl crowd, and if this strange wave dashing system is implemented, they will stay away. all wavedashing does is provide a hurdle for those who don't know what it is/don't like it. you can tell people that the game has all these fixes and then mention wavedashing and they will just turn around. it's the sad truth, no matter how 'balanced' you make wavedashing, it will never be accepted.

I'm taking this in off another thread over the HAD vs BAD debate, since most of this goes past just air dodge. I also don't agree with creating a thread for this point alone,and Kupo's thread seems like a great place to launch this discussion.

This is where it gets a bit odd for me.

So I decide to face facts that MAD is a bit broken, and I try to work with the little buffs from dash speed and SH because they were the features already in brawl just a bit tweaked. All I got was resistance and little to no feedback on the changes to SH/dash speed other than it took away 2 characters double fairs, ganon's thumder storming, and made tech chasing easy.

I can easily list 50+ ways it benefits the game and would add to not only the speed, but also the reflexes and awareness needed to play competitively. In the end I was still met with resistance.

I just have a little trouble seeing how dash cancel, hitstun, dash dancing, ASL, ledge speed up, and ALC are seen as ok but the dash speed and SH are tossed away for such minor reasons. The tech chase animation can easily be sped up as the ledge one was, and ganon can work around no thunder storming.

Here is the main thing I'd like more than character specific SH's... can we recieve a modifier that excludes characters from the SH code? If we can simply turn off DK/ganon/marth from the SH code wouldn't that be the key to it becoming viable for anyone? Could we turn it off at selection for some characters?

Here are some of the many positives the SH and dash speed add:

Increases game speed, adds more vriety between SH and full hop, hitstun can be reduced as more combos are possible resulting in less simple spam ftilt/utilt combos, the normal SHFF dair with ganon lands just above the ground at .8, mario can SHFF up air juggle again, falcon knee SHFF comes out just at ground after a down thrown, fox can not pillar as well with up tilt to dair since it's short (a good fox will switch to full hop making this add technical knowledge more than spam), samus SHFF missiles are better, fox's double lasers work like they did in melee with the same timing, luigi can SHFF fair into fair, link can nair to zair, Marth can nair combo juggle, falcon can knee to knee (this is really hard just like it was in melee), and most characters can horizontal juggle across the stage with at least 1 attack. I could go on listing many more, but it wouldn't serve much point.

I simply think limiting the SH and dash speed because of 2 or 3 moves is such a waste when it opens up a lot as well, and tech rolls should be fixed regardless as it's a gobal issue that would help defense against the added hitstun (even at normal dash speed I'd like tech roll animation to be a bit faster)

Sorry for the rant ^^

 

[Starscream]

*Shrug* Short hops at .9 seems fine to me. Marth can double Fair still, and SHFFLs feel more natural. As for dash speed, well feel free to boost it but no need for it to be faster than Melee. If someone can find the perfect setting that emulates Melee run speeds then that's fine with me. Don't fix what ain't broke right? Some will argue that dash speeds weren't broken to begin with, after trying it, a little speed boost doesn't hurt.

After playing several matches of Melee today after having not played in months I gotta say that Brawl teching sucks, and I can't wait for a dash > jump momentum code. Awwwww yeah.

 

[Osi]

I can't wait for a dash > jump momentum code. Awwwww yeah.

This is the largest reason I'm not pushing all out for dash speed. I think dash speed 1.2 will be enough after the dash jump momentum comes out, but almas sounded like he hadn't stated yet because of school reasons.

 

[Team Giza]

Here is the main thing I'd like more than character specific SH's... can we recieve a modifier that excludes characters from the SH code? If we can simply turn off DK/ganon/marth from the SH code wouldn't that be the key to it becoming viable for anyone? Could we turn it off at selection for some characters?

Wolf, Pit, Pikachu... probably more Im not thinking of at the moment.

Here are some of the many positives the SH and dash speed add:

Increases game speed, adds more vriety between SH and full hop, hitstun can be reduced as more combos are possible resulting in less simple spam ftilt/utilt combos, the normal SHFF dair with ganon lands just above the ground at .8, mario can SHFF up air juggle again, falcon knee SHFF comes out just at ground after a down thrown, fox can not pillar as well with up tilt to dair since it's short (a good fox will switch to full hop making this add technical knowledge more than spam), samus SHFF missiles are better, fox's double lasers work like they did in melee with the same timing, luigi can SHFF fair into fair, link can nair to zair, Marth can nair combo juggle, falcon can knee to knee (this is really hard just like it was in melee), and most characters can horizontal juggle across the stage with at least 1 attack. I could go on listing many more, but it wouldn't serve much point.

Yes short hopping would make the game faster and give more diverse combos to some characters. While other characters would get completely ***** by the changes even if they werent effected by the initial change in shorthop height. They would be at most of a disadvantage because the other characters had gotten better and they had gotten worse because of the change in hitstun levels. We would need to make appropriated system changes to help out other characters as well. If this is done I'm for it.

However, I also think having a lot of single move horizontal juggles is a bad thing.

I simply think limiting the SH and dash speed because of 2 or 3 moves is such a waste when it opens up a lot as well, and tech rolls should be fixed regardless as it's a gobal issue that would help defense against the added hitstun (even at normal dash speed I'd like tech roll animation to be a bit faster)

I would be for speeding up the tech roll and I am for slightly increasing the characters running speeds. However I do what codes that increase the usability and diversity in the characters who are not effected very positively from the short hop and dashspeed changes.

 

[Finns7]

Im sorry but I just dont agree that ganon doesnt need a thunderstomp, and also I dont care anymore about the mad vs bad stuff, but mad isnt the only code that makes brawl feel like melee (buffer code). 64 wasnt as loose as brawls but it wasnt as tight as melees it seemed idk, it wasnt as technical like melee....

I think if we wanted to keep brawl, brawl with added, and needed changes we should just have codes that take out glitches and cg's that take no skill.

 

[Revven]

iabout zzs. does beautifully mean well or too good?

What I meant was that I can do Dsmash to Fsmash again and Dsmash to dash attack again and that her stun moves work just right now. If people wanted to be picky and make them last even longer, they'd choose 65% hitlag. But, basically, she's fine at 60% with her stun moves. It also makes it so you have to react fast enough instead of being baby fed time to do what you want to do. (Just jokin around).

Basically just posting to say that my crew and I just now got around to trying these codes and stuff out, and we're having a lot more fun with Brawl now (barely played Brawl since after it came out) and I'm gonna be trying to hold Brawl+ tournies at my small tri-weeklies I hold.

Thanks to you all. : D

Good ****, tell us how the tourneys go!

And how would we do that? More kb?

Either that or DI weak hits. Whichever takes the least amount of lines I suppose.

 

[ReppinThat703]

brawl+ looks really good i just got to try it out yesterday hopefully more people bring this **** to biweeklies and tournys

 

[trojanpooh]

After playing melee today, I think that a code to make the stages bigger would do good for the game.

I actually did the same and must agree with you. Especially if someone made a stage specific one so the Star Fox stage could be huge again.

 

[Eaode]

Okay, I agree with Osi, but I don't think the changes have to be as drastic as he's describing. .8 SH's is too low imo, and anything above 1.2 dash speed is just silly (I'm using 1.1 right now and it's perfect)

My settings are as follows:
1.2 downwards gravity
1.1 upwards gravity
1.1 Fastfall speed
1.1 Dash speed
+9% hitstun

and everything is amazing. Yes this gets rid of Marth's Double Fairs (Which he doesn't need anyway but w/e and Ganon's thunderstorm and DK's double Bair's
These are the ONLY points worth arguing about SH + upgrav stuff. The effect on recoveries is very slight, and well deserved. Now I really don't see why people want the whole game to be floatier and have less control just for 3 insignificant character specific double aerials, the only one of which really matters being Ganondorf's.
The game is different, you'll have to deal with not being able to do a 22% move with zero lag. To throw away what makes the game so nice and tightly controlled (not meaning difficult, just meaning proper) JUST so Ganondorf can have one little Auto-Cancel on a move that he could just SHFFL instead, is a severe confusion of priorities.

So unless a char. specific short hop mod comes into play (which would be great), I say Ganon players should just man up and stop holding the game back just for their little autocancel.


EDIT: on a completely different note, I really agree that the teching window needs to be bigger. You can tell that the developers purposefully shrank it because they had so much buffer.

 

[Finns7]

The point of ganons aced dair isnt always for attacking

 

[thesage]

Can Ness do any sh double aerials with it? Nair to nair is the best one to test out. If he could still sh nair dj nair then it isn't really a problem. Can he also still sh ac dair?

Can anybody please confirm that dair to pkt2 works?

 

[MuBa]

My settings are as follows:
1.4 downwards gravity
1.0 upwards gravity
1.4 Dash speed
0.8 Short Hop
+9% hitstun

 

[Eaode]

1.4 down and 1.4 dash o_O;;

dayumn, isn't that a bit much?

 

[Revven]

1.4 down and 1.4 dash o_O;;

dayumn, isn't that a bit much?

He likes his fun speed activate!

Edit: 2000th post!!!! w00t!

 

[abcool]

With the code merger which one of those lines is hitstun and also upon using it i can't grab the ledge anymore anyone else got this problem and how can i fix it? Or can some one put up there code merger with 8.5% for me?

 

[Eaode]

I really think the top priorities right now should be the teching window and character specific short hops. Teching window because it's so stupidly small and specific and it's too easy to combo off a missed tech, and Short Hops so we can stop arguing about this ridiculous Autocancel ****

 

[Revven]

I really think the top priorities right now should be the teching window and character specific short hops. Teching window because it's so stupidly small and specific and it's too easy to combo off a missed tech, and Short Hops so we can stop arguing about this ridiculous Autocancel ****

And Sheik's gay Ftilt lock, try it out Eaode, you know you CAN'T escape.

 

[Eaode]

lolol probably. I don't play sheik at all xD

Oh and to whoever asked, I'm on 1.1 up grav and 0 buffer and I can Auto Cancel all of Ness's Aerials

Oh and if you guys are stil making that list, add me to Squirtle, Marth, Falcon, Fox, and Mario


EDIT: Also, Ganon's SHFFL Dair is good enough if you do it properly. It's still safe enough on shields. Seriously, he doesn't need to autocancel at all.

 

[Revven]

Oh yeah kupo, two complaints with your code set.

Hitstun was WAY to high, I couldn't do **** against my friend when he was CF, I DIed away and he was still able to combo me off stage and basically murder me, couldn't AD or anything. It should definitely be 8.5% or 8%, 9.5%? Too much.

Shieldstun is also too much, my friend couldn't roll away when I was Ftilting his shield with Sheik. Go back to 11/22/5 plz.

 

[matt4300]

Oh yeah kupo, two complaints with your code set.

Hitstun was WAY to high, I couldn't do **** against my friend when he was CF, I DIed away and he was still able to combo me off stage and basically murder me, couldn't AD or anything. It should definitely be 8.5% or 8%, 9.5%? Too much.

Shieldstun is also too much, my friend couldn't roll away when I was Ftilting his shield with Sheik. Go back to 11/22/5 plz.

see now this is what i ment when i said char specific hitstun... falcon has to much bowser has 2 little and zss is just right. sigh is there no way to make everything work... man i would really like to see what could be done with char buffs/nerfs... mabye some of this imba crap could be done away with.

 

[Eaode]

there will never be enough hitstun for bowser, he's just too slow lol.

I'm at 9% right now. Thinking about 8.5, but I'm gonna wait until me and my friend play to see.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm gonna have to agree that char specific shs and teching should be made top priority. Yes, that means higher than keeping momentum from a run. Currently, these two are our biggest obstacles in the way of game speed. You can't increase dash speed without making techchasing even easier, and it's too easy to **** people from missed techs, too. Character specific shs will let us use the sh mod without any worry of taking away from the characters that really need their current sh height.

You could also include ledgeteching in the teching list. Frick... I didn't realize just how badly they screwed up teching in this game until I actually listed it all out.

EDIT: Also, Ganon's SHFFL Dair is good enough if you do it properly. It's still safe enough on shields. Seriously, he doesn't need to autocancel at all.

Ganon doesn't just AC his dair so he can be safe against shields or to have an easier time comboing. It's a move you can purposely whiff with for mindgame purposes. Losing the AC dair is a big loss for ganon.

 

[MuBa]

Brawl+ new logo



FUN SPEED ACTIVATE NOW!

 

[storm92]

I personally don't like the idea of char-specific hitstun.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a top tier of 10 chars then the others right below, but character specific hitstun is just ugh. Bowser was never and is not made for comboing, which makes him lackluster. Bleh.