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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
I personally don't like the idea of char-specific hitstun.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a top tier of 10 chars then the others right below, but character specific hitstun is just ugh. Bowser was never and is not made for comboing, which makes him lackluster. Bleh.
just a suggestion.. i hadent seen anyone mention it yet so i did.. on a side note i dont think people should just say bowser sucks and be done with it. thats not fair or just especialy to bowser mains. something needs to be done with 1/3rd of the cast and the more global mods we do the better the other 2/3rds of the cast gets. air momentum is one more free hit for fox and falcon...

with specific char buffs/nerfs theres no reason we cant make everyone toptier and have a game thats all about matchups. (agin if all works out with the code thing falco400 posted about a few pages back)
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Oh yeah kupo, two complaints with your code set.

Hitstun was WAY to high, I couldn't do **** against my friend when he was CF, I DIed away and he was still able to combo me off stage and basically murder me, couldn't AD or anything. It should definitely be 8.5% or 8%, 9.5%? Too much.

Shieldstun is also too much, my friend couldn't roll away when I was Ftilting his shield with Sheik. Go back to 11/22/5 plz.
If your diddy, you can DI out of most combos against falcon except for a few key ones at percents where you deserve to die anyway. Agreed on the shield, 11/22/5 is perfect. Hitstn 9.5% is the way to go. Also, the recommended codeset values should NOT have those shield gain/etc nerfs in it, it is unnecessary.
 

Finns7

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
896
Ganon doesn't just AC his dair so he can be safe against shields or to have an easier time comboing. It's a move you can purposely whiff with for mindgame purposes. Losing the AC dair is a big loss for ganon.
Yeah I agree, its really a form of movement like how jiggs is a arieal, ganon needs his 3 canceled aierals for teh mindgames
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
@Matt4300

We've already discussed that we'll be working with char-specific tweaks once we know what is efficiently possible. For example, Bowser's main problem is getting combo'd easily. Thus, if we speed up his up-b again (C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!) and increased his survivability (not sure how, more weight just makes him more susceptible to utilt-spam-combos) he'll be gold.
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
@Matt4300

We've already discussed that we'll be working with char-specific tweaks once we know what is efficiently possible. For example, Bowser's main problem is getting combo'd easily. Thus, if we speed up his up-b again (C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!) and increased his survivability (not sure how, more weight just makes him more susceptible to utilt-spam-combos) he'll be gold.
or you could just change his costume and then he'll be gold
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
@Matt4300

We've already discussed that we'll be working with char-specific tweaks once we know what is efficiently possible. For example, Bowser's main problem is getting combo'd easily. Thus, if we speed up his up-b again (C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!) and increased his survivability (not sure how, more weight just makes him more susceptible to utilt-spam-combos) he'll be gold.
heh yeh i know im just getting a bit ahead of myself. all this talk of char balance for my favorite game ever has me all giddy. but i think bowser is gonna need more than a faster up-b to be able to fight fox or kirby v_v' any mistake from bowser is an auto 40 or 50 percent but one huge mistake from kirby is a lame 15 percent. ill try to contain myself T_T
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
You could always make the hitstun code not affect bowser.
@_@ that would be cool and just might fix everything wrong with bowser. it would still keep his defencive nature that we bowser players love, but keep him from 40/50 percent combos that the majority of the cast have on him. he will still be a projectile sponge,but this would help him a great deal.
downside is he wont be smashes very own pin cushion mascot.. or in other words he wont be as fun to fight. that is still a perfect idea though;)

heh kinda fits with the char 2. hes like a huge turtle dragon thing yet a pink ball of air can send him into a coma from 1
kick. XD


@BurningCrusader777: yeh its in that big code at the top of all the others... its also by its self further down

Lagless ledges: Phantom wings (24 lines)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 00000014
58010000 0000007C
30000038 00000074
86000002 00000040
86910002 40800000
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

i recomend the big code at the top though
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
So I'm not sure if this will help or anything, but I figured I'd post my thoughts and experiences with the characters. I use the following code set:

  • No Tripping
  • No Replay Time Limit
  • Auto L-Cancel
  • Hitstun at 8.75%
  • Lagless Ledges
  • No Decay with Fresh
  • Up and Down Gravity (Whatever is in the OP)
  • Dash Dance
  • 60% Hitlag
  • Shield Damage (from the OP)
  • Shield Stun 13/22/5
  • Crouch Canceling

Mario- Is now a combo machine. Much better then before. Has a lot of potential but still feels very middle of the road. An excellent character to use as a balance point.

Luigi- Not enough experience here

Peach- She's much better. She has trouble killing but she can wrack damage up very well now. Her aerials are nasty. Have we considered giving her second jump some vertical recovery?

Bowser- Atrocious. He's back to being like he was in Melee, which isn't good. He has very low combo potential, gets juggled very easily, is really slow, and the list goes on. I'd hate to leave a character as pure crap, but it'll be tough to buff him up IMO.

Link
- Besides his awful recovery, he's an overall very solid character. The bombs do good stun and can lead to low percent combos. His pansy boots are also quite good combo moves. It would be nice to let his hookshot hook to any surface ala Melee, but it can't happen :(

Zelda- She's didn't seem to really change from my experience. What worked with her in vanilla still works in B+.

Shiek- F-tilt, nuff said.

Toon Link- He's way too floaty for the new system. He still has a lot of things going for him, but it can be tough to string aerials together (minus his B-air off course). If we really get into character specific changes, I'd say making Tink less float would be something to look into.

Ganondorf- He probably has the most combo potential of any of the heavies, DK comes close. He is still easy to spam projectiles on and easy to juggle, but if he catches you it's almost always gonna end in a combo for massive damage. Two or three good combos and he's ready to kill. His F-air went from a useless move and is now back to it's Melee glory.

DK
- DK had a great spacing game and he still does. His tilts have great combo potential as does his down-B. The down cargo throw to spike seems to be working a lot more then it did before, so that might be due to hitstun on it. If that's the case, it's a little too good because it's very easy to set up.

Diddy- Diddy has sick combos. Everything seems to link to something now. Besides his light weight, I really feel Diddy has nothing against him, maybe range I guess. Characters with a good spacing game are trouble for Diddy, but if he gets someone he can rack damage like a fiend. Might be too good, but we'll see.

Yoshi- He is still way too floaty. The eggs have sick stun on them but otherwise I really feel is kinda weak. If we get a DJC code I think he'll be a whole lot better.

Wario- Wario is great. His d-air is even better then before and his up-air has some good combo potential. His d-throw links to a F-smash at almost all percents which is a great finisher. Overall I think he is one of B+ best characters.

Samus
- Long story short, is she can build damage but can't finish. A specific SH code for her is also almost required. We need to buff one of her smash attacks or her charge shot to have decent KO potential.

Pit, Olimar, Ice Climbers, ROB, Lucas, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff- Not much experience here.

MK
- He's still too good and he feels even better. I'd say we just up and ban him instead of messing with lines of code to balance him. Then again I'm biased cause I hate the Kirby series.

D3- He has some all right combo potential but I feel he went from best Big Guy to 2nd worst. Maybe I forgot the timing or something but it seems his d-throw chaingrab is gone or at least much tougher to do. Either way, I feel he is all right, but is one of the few characters that got worse with B+.

Fox- Basically, when we fix the tech window Fox should be brought down a few notches, which is probably a good thing. His u-tilt is a nasty combo starter. If you connect with a d-air at the start of an opponents fresh life, it seems to be pretty much a guaranteed 50-60%. That might be something worth looking into.

Falco- Maybe I'm no good with him, but he seems worse. I can't really figure out very many good combos with him. I also can't really combo into any KO moves. As I said, it's probably cause I'm bad with him.

Wolf
- Much like Falco, I'm finding trouble comboing with him. His u-tilt is a good combo starter as is the n-air though. He still is a solid character and the no-decay helps his game a lot.

C. Falcon
- It's almost like the whole B+ thing started because people wanted the Captain to be better. Like Fox, once we fix the tech window he'll be brought back down a few levels. Comboing into the knee feels oh so good.

P. Trainer
- Playing him with the switching is still a nifty idea in theory, poor in practice. Also, none of them seem to play any different. I feel the no-stam and seperate pokemon code will be required to make him a playable character.

Lucario- He already had combo in Vanilla, they have just now become easier to string together. Like Snake, he can play a mean defensive game still. I like the idea of the higher the damage the more knockback you have, but it ruins his low percent game. Is it worth trying to figure out a happy medium to leave his aura powers?

Marth- Still a shade of his Melee glory, but he has gotten some nice buffs with B+. His f-air spam seems less godly but his n-air seems a lot better and more useful. With the shield damage code his B does too much shield damage. It only needs to be half charged at that too. What's Marth's aerial killer, cause I'm finding he can have a tad trouble KOing without a d-throw to F-Smash.

Ike-
He needed these buffs. His n-air is still godly and his f-air is a great spacer. Maybe it's just me, but his n-air to a moving up-smash seems like a great combo. He doesn't have the combo potential like G-Dorf and DK have so that keeps him down a bit. Overall though, I feel he's good where he is.

Snake- Hasn't changed much from B+ but that's not a bad thing. He plays differently than any other character and I really like that about him. He's still really good, undoubtedly one of the best characters, but he's not unbeatable. If the concenus is we have to nerf him then just nerf the u-tilt, otherwise I feel he is fine.

Sonic- SHFF F-air is almost too good. How do you guys DI out of the u-throw to avoid getting combo'd further? Really there is no point to writing anything up about Sonic, he a whole lot better now and anyone with two eyes can see his amazing buffs.

A lot of writing and some of it was pointless but I hope a few of these might help out the code designers. I really feel the only two codes I'll probably be adding to Brawl will be the larger tech window and a nerf to Shiek's f-tilt. Maybe in another post I'll detail why I feel my code set really works best.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Hold on to those thoughts. I or someone else will be opening a separate thread for character specific tweaks in the (hopefully) near future.
 

Osi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
580
Location
In a dream
@Osi: How, exactly, do your friends counter fox? I'm curious to hear this.
They pick floaty characters that get out of the drill combos easier, they learned to tech consistently, and they DI correctly now. Those are the main ways they counter fox now. The first few days switching from brawl to brawl+ their DI/techs were bad, but the better they get on this the easier it is to counter fox. Knowing how to get out of the drill up tilt and dash attack combos seems to be the key.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Hold on to those thoughts. I or someone else will be opening a separate thread for character specific tweaks in the (hopefully) near future.
I did this 2 weeks ago but then "it wasn't the time yet" or osmething like that. I'll just bump it when we need it.
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
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I did this 2 weeks ago but then "it wasn't the time yet" or osmething like that. I'll just bump it when we need it.
awww i missed it... i guess i was working or something. id like to see the format you had for the OP... just out of curiosity. hmm im gonna look for it... or you could link me via pm? ^_^'

btw did we ever come to a conclussion about haveing a bigger stages code?
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Apr 27, 2006
Messages
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Cleveland, Ohio
If your diddy, you can DI out of most combos against falcon except for a few key ones at percents where you deserve to die anyway. Agreed on the shield, 11/22/5 is perfect. Hitstn 9.5% is the way to go. Also, the recommended codeset values should NOT have those shield gain/etc nerfs in it, it is unnecessary.
I wasn't Diddy that's the thing lol. I was Ness against his CF, it was ridiculous, I hadn't played his CF with Diddy but, I did play his Marth and MK with him and got some crazy good combos in.
 

storm92

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
844
Location
SoCal
awww i missed it... i guess i was working or something. id like to see the format you had for the OP... just out of curiosity. hmm im gonna look for it... or you could link me via pm? ^_^'

btw did we ever come to a conclussion about haveing a bigger stages code?
I think a few people were in favor of it, but no one really disagreed. I would like bigger stages personally.
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
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Messages
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USA-AL
I think a few people were in favor of it, but no one really disagreed. I would like bigger stages personally.
i would as well. mostly for teams, and melee stages being alot more fun. i dotn know much about makeing codes (only what the coders have said) but it seems like it would be a small code, and much better than the small chars code. for the fact that they would have to make another code to fix the voices.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I'll give larger stages a go. Sounds fun. I haven't been bothered by their sizes, but I can't say it doesn't sound interesting for Brawls and Team Matches.
 

storm92

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
844
Location
SoCal
I actually completely forgot about team matches and how ridiculously cramped they were on all stages except FD, we should get the stage increase code somewhere up high on the list. It's not a huge priority, but might be a nice little break for PW for an easy code.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Oh yeah kupo, two complaints with your code set.

Hitstun was WAY to high, I couldn't do **** against my friend when he was CF, I DIed away and he was still able to combo me off stage and basically murder me, couldn't AD or anything. It should definitely be 8.5% or 8%, 9.5%? Too much.
Shieldstun is also too much, my friend couldn't roll away when I was Ftilting his shield with Sheik. Go back to 11/22/5 plz.
I have 9.5 hitstun. Sure I'll make the shield stun changes
If your diddy, you can DI out of most combos against falcon except for a few key ones at percents where you deserve to die anyway. Agreed on the shield, 11/22/5 is perfect. Hitstn 9.5% is the way to go. Also, the recommended codeset values should NOT have those shield gain/etc nerfs in it, it is unnecessary.
Yea I play with it but I guess I shouldn't include it

PW is working on teching.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Nothing in the game changes the size of a stage.

Plenty of things in the game change the size of a character.

This is why character size is stored in memory as easily accessible variables, and stage size isn't.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
For those of you that have played with smaller characters, does this affect the knockback of characters, and thus the stage boundaries and KO percentages?
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
Nothing in the game changes the size of a stage.

Plenty of things in the game change the size of a character.

This is why character size is stored in memory as easily accessible variables, and stage size isn't.
so your saying that it would be easyer to make the chars smaller and fix the squeaky voices? or is fixing the voice out of the question:confused:

For those of you that have played with smaller characters, does this affect the knockback of characters, and thus the stage boundaries and KO percentages?
not that i have noticed. the only thing is the chars hurt boxes are smaller so with like bowser you dont die so easily off the screen becuase it takes a little extra push to get your hurt box in the killzone but its barley noticeable like 3 % or so. other than that chars die at the same percents
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
That makes sense. Good. I was afraid smaller character sizes would muck with character recovery moves, knockback, and more requiring a plethora of fixes. I'd be opened to trying it, especially if the voices could be fixed.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Falco400 said:
Oh yeah kupo, two complaints with your code set.

Hitstun was WAY to high, I couldn't do **** against my friend when he was CF, I DIed away and he was still able to combo me off stage and basically murder me, couldn't AD or anything. It should definitely be 8.5% or 8%, 9.5%? Too much.
Shieldstun is also too much, my friend couldn't roll away when I was Ftilting his shield with Sheik. Go back to 11/22/5 plz.
I play with an even 10% hitstun, and I can still do plenty things about Falcon. To be fair, I don't have shieldstun. Maybe it makes a difference.

At the moment, I would say space animals and Sonic feel like the best characters overall, with Falcon and Shiek close behind. Falcon has very satisfying, massive combos but his recovery is still easy to gimp, and his lack of projectiles and priority still hinders approaches.

I like Falco's gameplay more now. It's harder without the chaingrab, but he doesn't need it. The dair, nair, and jab all link together very nicely. I've also found myself getting a lot more utility out of that dsmash than I used to. Plus, the diagonal trajectory on his fsmash is more horizontal now, causing it to kill earlier.

What we need to see is a code that allows you to tech earlier and easier, and a code that deals with shiek's comically broken ftilt.
 

storm92

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
844
Location
SoCal
I play with an even 10% hitstun, and I can still do plenty things about Falcon. To be fair, I don't have shieldstun. Maybe it makes a difference.

At the moment, I would say space animals and Sonic feel like the best characters overall, with Falcon and Shiek close behind. Falcon has very satisfying, massive combos but his recovery is still easy to gimp, and his lack of projectiles and priority still hinders approaches.

I like Falco's gameplay more now. It's harder without the chaingrab, but he doesn't need it. The dair, nair, and jab all link together very nicely. I've also found myself getting a lot more utility out of that dsmash than I used to. Plus, the diagonal trajectory on his fsmash is more horizontal now, causing it to kill earlier.

What we need to see is a code that allows you to tech earlier and easier, and a code that deals with shiek's comically broken ftilt.
I pretty much agree with everything here.
His dthrow doesn't chain but it leads into nice options, and his pseudo-pillars are nice when the opponent is stuck in a shield or doesn't tech your Dair into the ground. He seems well balanced as well, as with his fast falling nature he can be juggled easily and gimped with a relatively shi--- recovery, even though his sideB is much more usable in Brawl than Melee.
Also yeah, teching is on its way.
 

Zilactic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
47
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San Diego, CA
For those of you that have played with smaller characters, does this affect the knockback of characters, and thus the stage boundaries and KO percentages?
as far as i can tell, alot of the moves dont scale down along with the smaller sizes. KO percentages seem the same, the only difference is the squeaky voice and theres some more room. thats it. i dont think changing character sizes is that beneficial to the game anyways. i honestly think the character and stage sizes are just fine. although i wouldve been all for a bigger stage code if it were possible.

anyways. after playing with upwards gravity (from the range of 1.025-1.1) and without it, ive come up with my own conclusion on it effects. here are some of them

Pros:
1. Overall Faster Gameplay
2. Doesnt have that floaty feeling
3. Jumps "feel good"
4. Mixed with the SH/FF code, it feels im doing alot more things in sucession but i guess that coincides with #1

Cons:
1. It nerfs character recoveries. Plain and Simple
Ex:
Sonic- His up-b doesnt nearly go up as much. Sure you can still recover but ya gotta miss the "SUPER SONIC JUMP" thing. i did.

Link - Sure his recovery sucked anyways so why bother. Well, that wouldnt be fair now would it?

Wario - I've been playing Wario ever since Brawl+ came out and the upward gravity just kills his recovery. he doesnt get that much height from jumping off his cycle which ruins his chance to recover and it kills alot of the cool KO tricks you can do from the cycle.

Ike - its just a minor nerf to his up-b but i take it like this. its like giving a fat kid more cake instead of telling him to go run. the upwards gravity just contributes to the fact that hes a slow powerful boulder but once he rolls off the cliff... hes not coming back.

Diddy Kong - the combo beast of Brawl+ should have a weakness but not such a blantant, easy to take advantage weakness. Without ASL his recovery is a gamble. To me its like a 60% chance that if you aim for the ledge you'll end up getting up. The other 40% leaves Diddy in a shocked state looking like hes thinking "wtf did i do wrong?" the upwards gravity affects the trajectory of his recovery and the downwards gravity just makes plummet down when hes charging. diddy's recovery makes him a glass cannon i guess.

Those are a few examples.
Although individual characters benefit greatly from the upwards gravity i just feel it imbalances characters to a greater degree.

i used to be a complete advocate of upwards gravity but now, not so much.
If someone did look into a code that just speeds up the jump instead the whole upwards gravity. that would solve everything in my opinion. im just saying.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I play with an even 10% hitstun, and I can still do plenty things about Falcon. To be fair, I don't have shieldstun. Maybe it makes a difference.

At the moment, I would say space animals and Sonic feel like the best characters overall, with Falcon and Shiek close behind. Falcon has very satisfying, massive combos but his recovery is still easy to gimp, and his lack of projectiles and priority still hinders approaches.

What we need to see is a code that allows you to tech earlier and easier, and a code that deals with shiek's comically broken ftilt.
I agree those are the codes we need most.

That being said, 10% is way too high. 8.75% and 8.5% are what I'm messing with right now. There is no reason to have hitstun that high. No wonder you are finding those guys to be the best in B+ :)
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
I assure you, although they're very good, Sonic, Falcon and spacies are not the best characters.

For starters, you will notice all of Falcon's flaws very sharply in a match against any good Lucario. Mediocre approach options, low priority, and poor killing options besides those that you can combo into. Plus, as Falcon is a semi-fast faller, Lucario can easily combo the balls off CF. Try it.

Sonic is miles better than before, but he still doesn't have the kill options that many better characters have.

As for spacies, well, Falco's definitely one of the very best, but I'm not sure about Fox and Wolf. As pointed out a few pages back, once you learn to DI properly out of Fox's attacks and tech correctly (soon to be even easier) it reduces his options. I don't know much about Wolf, though.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
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I think we should start making a list (Sort of like what has been started already) of even just ideas for character specific buffs.
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
as far as i can tell, alot of the moves dont scale down along with the smaller sizes. KO percentages seem the same, the only difference is the squeaky voice and theres some more room. thats it. i dont think changing character sizes is that beneficial to the game anyways. i honestly think the character and stage sizes are just fine. although i wouldve been all for a bigger stage code if it were possible.

anyways. after playing with upwards gravity (from the range of 1.025-1.1) and without it, ive come up with my own conclusion on it effects. here are some of them

Pros:
1. Overall Faster Gameplay
2. Doesnt have that floaty feeling
3. Jumps "feel good"
4. Mixed with the SH/FF code, it feels im doing alot more things in sucession but i guess that coincides with #1

Cons:
1. It nerfs character recoveries. Plain and Simple
Ex:
Sonic- His up-b doesnt nearly go up as much. Sure you can still recover but ya gotta miss the "SUPER SONIC JUMP" thing. i did.

Link - Sure his recovery sucked anyways so why bother. Well, that wouldnt be fair now would it?

Wario - I've been playing Wario ever since Brawl+ came out and the upward gravity just kills his recovery. he doesnt get that much height from jumping off his cycle which ruins his chance to recover and it kills alot of the cool KO tricks you can do from the cycle.

Ike - its just a minor nerf to his up-b but i take it like this. its like giving a fat kid more cake instead of telling him to go run. the upwards gravity just contributes to the fact that hes a slow powerful boulder but once he rolls off the cliff... hes not coming back.

Diddy Kong - the combo beast of Brawl+ should have a weakness but not such a blantant, easy to take advantage weakness. Without ASL his recovery is a gamble. To me its like a 60% chance that if you aim for the ledge you'll end up getting up. The other 40% leaves Diddy in a shocked state looking like hes thinking "wtf did i do wrong?" the upwards gravity affects the trajectory of his recovery and the downwards gravity just makes plummet down when hes charging. diddy's recovery makes him a glass cannon i guess.

Those are a few examples.
Although individual characters benefit greatly from the upwards gravity i just feel it imbalances characters to a greater degree.

i used to be a complete advocate of upwards gravity but now, not so much.
If someone did look into a code that just speeds up the jump instead the whole upwards gravity. that would solve everything in my opinion. im just saying.
I disagree with some of those. Sonic's Up-B isn't really hurt that badly, I didn't really notice the difference with Wario, and Ike's felt pretty much exactly the same.

The difference is, that characters who were supposed to have an average recovery, now have an average recovery, instead of a great one. I really don't see the problem with globally nerfing recoveries slightly, they are WAY too good in vBrawl, and it takes away from character variety. Obviously, if we take away Brawl's ridiculous floatiness, the recoveries won't be as amazing. it just means you have to adjust your playstyle very slightly. Frankly I was tired of 800 ft from the ledge aerial batles that Brawl let you have for free; the fact that most any character could do it completely took away its awe and its skill.

Case in point: upwards gravity does so much for the game, but slightly nerfs recoveries. This nerf isn't game breaking by any means, and I feel that it was well deserved.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Nothing in the game changes the size of a stage.

Plenty of things in the game change the size of a character.

This is why character size is stored in memory as easily accessible variables, and stage size isn't.
This is tricky because I would like to see the Melee stages increased in size, but the Brawl stages (which were designed for the current character sizes) kept the same.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
Hey kupo, when you say that PW is working on teching, do you mean all three aspects of teching, or just one or two? Because we need 1) a bigger teching window, 2) faster techs, and 3) the ability to force a wall collision through SDI when you're being hit away from the wall. Only then will the teching game be perfect.

Smaller characters might be... interesting. I dunno. I'm neutral on the issue.

Oh, and buffing bowser would be really easy, guys. I don't know why we keep trying to come up with all these roundabout solutions when the only thing you really need to change is his upB. It's already a good move to use out of shield, but at the moment it doesn't really lead into anything aterward. Fix it so that it has the proper trajectory/launch speed to combo uairs from (and maybe a second upB at low percents), which would inevitably lead into a fair or bair finisher. We may also need to lower the lag on it to make this possible, maybe even giving him the ability to JC it (grounded version only, of course, unless we wanted to make his recovery amazing).

edit: Just noticed the character balance thread got bumped. Gonna post that there, now. Don't respond to this here.
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
@Zilactic: 2 words "char tweaks" as soon as the coders find a good way to implement them we dont have to worry about how it makes some chars imba or ruins recoverys.

on a side note i was just doing a mario luigi fight and wow:
mario. luigi
AAA: 8 AAA: 9 (luigis is much easyer to hit with completely)
utilt: 6 utilt:8 (luigs combos easier)
ftilt: 7 ftilt: 9
dtilt: 4 dtilt:8 (luigis trips)

usmash: 12 usmash: 13 (luigis combos easier)
dsmash: 13 dsmash: 14 (luigis is faster)
fsmash kills at: 122 112 (luigis is faster and harder to DI)

fair: 11 fair:9 (luigis is MUCH faster and easier to combo with but doest spike)
dair: 11(on adverage does 3/4%) dair: 11 (luigis is much safer much faster and can kill)
uair: 10 uair11
nair: 9 nair 12 (LOL luigis is MUCH easier to combo with knocks you strait up and is a kill move!)
bair: 11 bair 11 (luigi has more range and can use it 3 times midair rather than 2)

all that and luigi can jump higher recover better. get out of hitstun faster. and spam kill moves faster...

WHO THE **** BALANCED THIS GAME!!!!!! @o@ WTF @%*$&!!!!!
 
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