Clowsui and Hilt present: RETRIBUTION//Results are up

[Ridley Silverlake]

Vinnie never lost with his GnW on that stage for an incredibly long time for a reason...WITH Metaknight in the picture. I can only imagine what a GnW or possibly a Wario could do with their run-away potential WITHOUT a Metaknight to chase them around with constant pressure. If I wanted to play "tag, you're it!"...I'd go outside into the sunlight.

 

[What's The Point]

My criteria is "how much does the stage change the gameplay from a match on BF/SV/PS1(Non-transformed)?" That's the gameplay we (generalizing) all value.

 

[clowsui]

@Keitaro: Why is sharking so awful lol? Like what about the ability to time out by sharking is inherently bad? As a percentage of time in a match Delfino is something like 60% sharkable transformations 40% non-sharkable with the non-sharkable ones having a lot of polar characteristics. Now THAT's the argument you want to be making - Delfino contains a huge # of polarizing elements, with the polarizing elements changing in magnitude (i.e. type) from transformation to transformation but not in direction (i.e. degree) - and something that I'm going to spend some time thinking about.

As for RC, again the ability to win by timeout isn't so much a problem as "is this strategy centralizing"? Is that stage just "pick GW and win"?

@WTP: Why should that be the criteria? Like what about those three stages represent the pinnacle of play? We all value PvP but why should we define PvP so narrowly? What about interactive/scoreboard-changing hazards does not reward PvP play? Could we not argue that PvP is in fact enhanced by the interaction of PvS elements with PvP? For example, I could argue that my superior stage control is what allows me to capitalize off the Halberd laser (or be affected the least by the Halberd laser).

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

Wario's stage control is rewarded by allowing him to take advantage of the (apparently patterned) acid vs DDD's stage control + defense on FD is rewarded by allowing him to easily capitalize on a CG-able character.

Are these different?

GW is amazing on Brinstar.

Also Reflex why do you think Brinstar is bannable despite patterned acid? Sharking?

Yes, very different. DDD is moreso exploiting his strength against certain matchups in a static setting which can be remedied by a character switch who either doesn't get chaingrabbed or can reverse the situation against DDD. In Wario's case, his "exploitation" takes place in a non-static setting with very limited options to work around it once the hazard comes into play...and that goes for ANY character that you might happen to be using in a MK banned environment, including the ditto. THAT i would say contributes more to the stage itself being an issue rather than a handful of characters' abilities to exploit it.

 

[Player-1]

yes, in an MK banned environment we will see GaW vs GaW every time RC is picked, mark my words ppl.




/sarcasm.

 

[Ori_bro]

#Randomtopicswitch

but within the next couple weeks, I'll be running a few stream tests and stuff to show off layouts, test things out for myself personally, and a couple other things.

Ori will probably be making my layouts again. If you want to throw some ideas at me or throw your own layout to be taken into consideration, contact me on skype (daywalker562) or send me a PM on SWF.

I'll let you guys know when I start doing them officially, but it'll be in a couple weeks if anyone is interested in taking a look at it.

Will we have the full xsplit and what are we doing for setup like external monitor etc. also also we need people other than you and me to be at the station to edit stream stuff. Since we will be playing matches and junk

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also Reflex why do you think Brinstar is bannable despite patterned acid? Sharking?

Mostly because it encourages incredibly safe positioning (as in, long periods where NOTHING is happening). Breakable center separates the stage, platforms and stuff make it big on sharking, hitlag on various things make some moves REALLY good, and the acid is still very intrusive despite the pattern (while it's easy to avoid, you're forced to lose ALL of your ground options at set points in the game).

I'm on the fence about it, but, I feel like it doesn't add much to competitive play that doesn't stem from abusing specific character strengths so one-dimensionally.

Honestly I should have known this was an MK banned event the moment I saw Reflex posting in it :/

RC with MK banned is still very campy and gimmicky. If the players attending this tournament are fine with it then so be it. I'd probably skip out on a tourney with both RC and Delphino legal personally, even with MK banned. Went to a tourney like that before and wanted to rip my hair out.

I also have a personal vendetta against Frigate since no matter what advice I have been given in the past I end up under the stage and losing a match because of it. But I won't argue that.

I'm going to WABA, though I'm not really posting in that thread. I'm posting in this thread for Windjammers.

Rainbow Cruise really isn't campy, and it's only as gimmicky as you let it be. Stage knowledge is important, as it isn't random.

Frigate is unacceptable because of strong repercussions from luck-based advantages.

Vinnie never lost with his GnW on that stage for an incredibly long time for a reason...WITH Metaknight in the picture. I can only imagine what a GnW or possibly a Wario could do with their run-away potention WITHOUT a Metaknight to chase them around with constant pressure. If I wanted to play "tag, you're it!"...I'd go outside into the sunlight.

You can only imagine because it hasn't been much of a problem so far. :/

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

To player-1: Hence why I said "ANY character you might happen to be using". Wario and GnW are not MK, everyone and their second cousin doesn't have one of those at their disposal.

And Reflex: it hasn't been a problem yet because everyone is still in culture shock from the constant flipflop of MK-legal to non-legal stuff and the near extinct Wario and GnW populations are struggling to recover, if anyone good is even bothering to play as them anymore that is. Pretty sure it would quickly become a problem under a MK banned setting if MK had never filtered the population out in the first place and more people were still playing the characters proficiently. As of right now it's just MK mains trying their hands at Marth or something, and Olimars, Ice climbers, Diddys, and Falcos running trains on people.

 

[clowsui]

Frigate is actually more luck-based than a lot of the CPs I have listed LOL. It's true that it has a strict set of patterns but which pattern I end up on is decided by luck and the patterns all have drastic effects on the strength of a given character on that stage. You could argue "just pick a character who's strong on all three patterns" but I'm not quite sure if this character exists and it's close to being similar to rolling a loaded die

EDIT: See, Reflex's argument against Brinstar is a good one. That's what I was looking for and should've asked for from him before banning Brinstar -- apologies for being stupid and saying acid right away like I knew what I was talking about.

I saw it when I was in the URC and found it to be compelling. Reflex's statement(s) about Brinstar are exactly why I'm choosing to ban the stage.

EDIT2:

Yes, very different. DDD is moreso exploiting his strength against certain matchups in a static setting which can be remedied by a character switch who either doesn't get chaingrabbed or can reverse the situation against DDD. In Wario's case, his "exploitation" takes place in a non-static setting with very limited options to work around it once the hazard comes into play...and that goes for ANY character that you might happen to be using in a MK banned environment, including the ditto. THAT i would say contributes more to the stage itself being an issue rather than a handful of characters' abilities to exploit it.

Rephrase? I don't see how that answers my question. My apologies if I'm being dull, you're just bringing a lot of concepts into play (non-static, limitation of options due to hazard, stage control(?), other stuff I'm sure I'm not seeing).

 

[sneakytako]

I can't wait to hard body you reflex in WJ. I got that top 5 status to defend. Get ready.

 

[Ridley Silverlake]

To Clowsui: That's because you think too much in numbers, all I've really seen in your posts are percentages and probabilities. All you have to do is picture possible scenarios based on your own or others' experiences and you'll see what I'm talking about. picture yourself against Wario, you're stuck on the top platform or in the air above it. If you shield he can bite right through it, if you're above him and the top platform as the acid is up...good luck landing without eating a hard punish. Stuff like that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And Reflex: it hasn't been a problem yet because everyone is still in culture shock from the constant flipflop of MK-legal to non-legal stuff and the near extinct Wario and GnW populations are struggling to recover, if anyone good is even bothering to play as them anymore that is. Pretty sure it would quickly become a problem under a MK banned setting if MK had never filtered the population out in the first place and more people were still playing the characters proficiently. As of right now it's just MK mains trying their hands at Marth or something, and Olimars, Ice climbers, Diddys, and Falcos running trains on people.

People don't use G&W because he's not a very good character, and people don't use Wario because...well, I don't know why they don't use Wario. Regardless, anyone who cares about specifically MK-banned or MK-legal environments doesn't have an issue with flipflopping, as they just go to the tournaments they prefer. The MK ban mandate started a while back. If people haven't been dominating with G&W and Wario on those stages, it's probably because it's not as easy as "pick G&W and win your counterpick."

Even if the stage is too polarizing against those characters, it hasn't been a problem yet because stage bans are a thing. If people are "forced to use" their stage ban on FD against Ice Climbers or Falco, but that's okay, how it is any worse for people to do it for a stage like Brinstar against Game and Watch?

I can't wait to hard body you reflex in WJ. I got that top 5 status to defend. Get ready.

We'll see. I'll be sure to get plenty of practice in before it comes to that.

To Clowsui: That's because you think too much in numbers, all I've really seen in your posts are percentages and probabilities. All you have to do is picture possible scenarios based on your own or others' experiences and you'll see what I'm talking about. picture yourself against Wario, you're stuck on the top platform or in the air above it. If you shield he can bite right through it, if you're above him and the top platform as the acid is up...good luck landing without eating a hard punish. Stuff like that.

Bite does 7% damage if you're half-decent at mashing, and a whiffed Bite gets Wario punished pretty hard (just walk away). It's hardly a deciding factor. Actually, just shielding against Wario works really well in that situation just for that reason; Wario can't actively threaten you with too much if your shield is full and you can move around a little. As a result, a good Wario will often sit around and wait for your shield to weaken. Try footstooling him next time the acid's coming up like that.

I imagine there are much more convincing, more "I'm helpless" scenarios to bring up as far as polarization is concerned.

 

[clowsui]

Well look in that case I would argue that I should have been good enough to maintain enough stage control over the course of the match such that I wouldn't have to be there. If I end up there pursuing my advantage and the Wario reverses that situation, whether it's by my mistake or by his crafty maneuver, I still have to deal with the consequences, which are that many times worse due to Wario's strong ability to capitalize on juggle situations. Wario himself did nothing to create that advantage but "be himself" - this much is true - but whether or not the stage makes it easy for him to be rewarded in this sense...I'm not so sure that's a legitimate criterion for banning a stage.

Now, you can argue that the DEGREE of the punish is inappropriate relative to the size of the mistake -- so then you ask yourself, how often does this happen in a match...well, you look at Raziek's stage guide, and you can confirm that the stage only really threatens your safety in that kind of manner at three times. So OK. I just have to make sure that I either mitigate Wario's advantage or I mitigate the potential of the mistake to affect my victory in order to minimize the effect of those times.

So there's multiple ways I can do this:
1. Get the lead and keep it. You can do this the most effectively by breaking the stage and/or sharking.
2. Abuse the fact that he will want to use the stage elements (dunno if there's a safe way to do this)
3. Find a way/position to not be affected by Wario at those times. Making sure you're on a horizontal plane to Wario or find ways to increase the probability of being on that plane around those critical times is the best strategy here.
4. Some combination of the above/something I'm forgetting

Those are just some of the potential counterarguments I'd envision for Brinstar...

EDIT:

Actually Kel/Tako, I want to hear your counter-argument to Reflex regarding Brinstar's legality

 

[sneakytako]

Dude brinstar is mad gay. Ban that stage. Or actually, keep it and make people ban it *shrug.

It makes the CP game a lot more interesting for people like marth. On one hand no one really wants to play marth on brinstar, but on the other hand every marth is going to know everything about BF. If you think you have more experience on brinstar, you can ban BF and bet that you do better on brinstar.

If a character is overwhelmingly ridiculous on brinstar, you ban it. If they have a reasonable advantage, it still might be legitimate to play on it.

My arguement was just about the acid, I think it actualy makes the stage BETTER.

Also ban delphino.

Also, ban jesse (store owner) from WJs.

 

[clowsui]

I wanna hear more about banning Delfino, you didn't flesh it out quite enough to me when we were @ JJ's

 

[What's The Point]

Clowsui, you are bring way to flip floppy for a TO. I shouldn't be worried about what stages will be legal at this point. But now what, Brinstar is coming back and you're removing Delfino?

 

[Xatic]

Will we have the full xsplit and what are we doing for setup like external monitor etc. also also we need people other than you and me to be at the station to edit stream stuff. Since we will be playing matches and junk

We'll worry about asking people for a "stream team" when we get a little closer to this.

As of now it's just me, you, and JTsm. We will probably need 1-2 other members but we'll see.

 

[Player-1]

just ban every stage except for Rainbow

 

[sneakytako]

Delphino has everything that could be considered janky besides hazards and extended hitboxes. It's got walkoffs, water, walls, strange platforms, sharking, ledgeless edges, transformations, short blast zones you name it.

Consider a MU like Ike VS D3 on that stage. On one hand D3 ***** ike against walls, walkoffs, ledgeless edges. But on the other hand water, short blast zones, and sharking can greatly benifit ike. Who gets the advantage from the stage could depend a lot on what transformations occur; if a whole bunch of beaches, fountains, and crazy pillars appear ike might actually like that stage more than neutrals. Now if you forget that D3 naturally wrecks the crap out of ike the stage can greatly determine the outcome of the match simply based on the transformations it chooses. It's kinda similar to Reflexes arguement against Frigate, it's ******** imo. And I feel that Delphino's transoformations can alter the MU way more than frigate can and it's way more random.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

STRANGE PLATFORMS

What strange platforms are on Delfino?

 

[sneakytako]

Don't unbrellas do something janky with sonics spindash? Also those top platforms on the transition parts are unusually high.

Strange isn't the best word, but janky isn't the word I'm looking for either. I guess the word would be 'unusual'

 

[What's The Point]

I'm pretty sure Delfino only has 2 static orders of transformations, but chosen at random from the start. You either start on the island or the plaza, and it's a set order from there.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm pretty sure Delfino only has 2 static orders of transformations, but chosen at random from the start. You either start on the island or the plaza, and it's a set order from there.

That is incorrect. It's pretty random--

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257415

 

[@TKbreezy]

Clowsui, you are being way to flip floppy for a TO. I shouldn't be worried about what stages will be legal at this point. But now what, Brinstar is coming back and you're removing Delfino?

Agreed^

it's your tournament. do not sway your stagelist (outside of brinstar) because everyone hates like 1 or 2 mechanics about the stage. isn't this MK banned? like delphino sharking shouldn't even be that big of a deal. who else is going to shark you? pit? charizard? LOL

@sneaky

sonic does the same thing at YI's. except on Yi's its permanent and not just on a transformation.

Edit: besides you guys act like 90% of matches aren't played on Smashville. Salty runbacks are the glue that holds the smash community together.

 

[Player-1]

Charizard sharking>MK Sharking TBH

 

[@TKbreezy]

^you heard the man Reflex. we found you a new counterpick.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Mostly because it encourages incredibly safe positioning (as in, long periods where NOTHING is happening).

Isn't that how PS1 is though? :o The lava/transformation comes up. People run away from each other. Wait until it's over, and then get back to doing whatever it was they were doing? o-o

Also plz don't ban PS1 or i'll be sure that you guys are just picking on me. D;

 

[Player-1]

^you heard the man Reflex. we found you a new counterpick.

nah reflex gets wrecked on delfino
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DneNgSarfcI

 

[@TKbreezy]

Af k^

 

[Exceladon City]

Agreed^

it's your tournament. do not sway your stagelist (outside of brinstar) because everyone hates like 1 or 2 mechanics about the stage. isn't this MK banned? like delphino sharking shouldn't even be that big of a deal. who else is going to shark you? pit? charizard? LOL

@sneaky

sonic does the same thing at YI's. except on Yi's its permanent and not just on a transformation.

Edit: besides you guys act like 90% of matches aren't played on Smashville. Salty runbacks are the glue that holds the smash community together.

+1 to all of this.

Especially this

besides you guys act like 90% of matches aren't played on Smashville. Salty runbacks are the glue that holds the smash community together.

 

[sneakytako]

@sneaky

sonic does the same thing at YI's. except on Yi's its permanent and not just on a transformation.

Edit: besides you guys act like 90% of matches aren't played on Smashville. Salty runbacks are the glue that holds the smash community together.

That's why YI is the autobahn against sonic. It doesn't make sonic spindash on delphino not janky because there's a stage that's even more janky for sonic q.q.

If you're going to play every game on SV, let the people who don't play every game on SV worry about CPs.

 

[@TKbreezy]

aight well since we are nitpicking

-I do counterpick. but I know A LOT OF PEOPLE go back to SV game 2

- you effectively wanna make sonic more useless than he already is by banning his only other "counterpick" (that I have never seen a sonic main pick and I was static doubles partners with Speed for like 6 months so I def saw plenty of sonic gameplay)

- even so what is that like a 40 second transformation (don't quote me on that do not know times)

-PS2 IS ON AND YOU GUYS ARE WORRIED ABOUT DELPHINO? also I don't think and will never thinkg Castle Siege is a neutral. oh well. I'm just a tourney goer.

 

[What's The Point]

He wasn't complaining about Sonic on Deflino. He was just using Sonic as an example for the "weird" platforms since everyone knows about Sonic side-B stuff.

 

[sneakytako]

Do sonics really CP delphino? My point was that delphino has just about everything that could be considered janky.

 

[Roller]

Anyone who advocates banning delfino while still keeping brinstar legal should be written off as a troll, someone who has not experienced true abuse of Brinstar, and/or someone who is not intelligent.

 

[sneakytako]

PS2 is mostly fair, you just haven't played it enough. Different, but mostly fair.

 

[@TKbreezy]

I'm getting trolled again. GG tako.

TKO: 0
Player-1: 1
Tako: 1

 

[sneakytako]

Don't worry, you won't be the last.

Brinstar is honestly a toss-up. The thing I like about brinstar is that it's unique; the characters beside MK who do really well on brinstar generally don't have another equally spectacular CP that makes this stage a huge issue. On the other hand, there's a lot of characters who do terrible on brinstar that can be exploited, or at least leave the option of wasting their ban here. Overall I don't see this stage being played much, but it might allow people to CP other stages.

But delphino... is just yuck. Have a chance to play with ridiculous stuff! Can't abuse the jank we gave you? Try again (IE: camp) or get *****!

 

[Player-1]

I demand more points

 

[What's The Point]

But delphino... is just yuck. Have a chance to play with ridiculous stuff! Can't abuse the jank we gave you? Try again (IE: camp) or get *****!

That's why you pick transformation stages. You dont pick PS2 (and often PS1) because you like it's neutral state. You want to wait out for transformations and try to jank. Brinstar is the same. You pick it to wait for lava to **** up your opponent. ICs and Diddy wouldn't be so bad on Brinstar without lava.