Noraa
Smash Lord
Neo is amazing lol.
Besides boss, hes one of my fav players. Spacing is deadly.
Besides boss, hes one of my fav players. Spacing is deadly.
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Cincinnati House Tournament - Tyr vs. Overswarm and Tactical
- Thread starter Tyr_03
- Start date
prOAPC
Smash Lord
Roy sucks!!!
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
IMO Boss is one of the best players in the country.
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
Videos or it didn't happen.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
boss is a freakin beast
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
It was in his opinion, and ONE OF THE best, tyr. Not THE best. We all know M2K is the best.
I never heard of Boss. Who has beaten that is notable?
lil cj
Smash Lord
Azen is the best player in the world
hands down!
He's good with a variety of characters
If he picked up Lucas...Lucas' potential would be unleased
M2K is 2nd best and Ninja Link is 3rd
hands down!
He's good with a variety of characters
If he picked up Lucas...Lucas' potential would be unleased
M2K is 2nd best and Ninja Link is 3rd
prOAPC
Smash Lord
i don't think Azen is better than M2K
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
-sigh- more top players list
first off,
azen is not better than M2K.
M2k is the best in the country as of now and it'll probably stay that way.
Azen is 2nd
DSF 3rd
NL 4th
Boss 5th
though boss doesn't really pull in the tourney results of the players noted above him, his technical skill and spacing is ridiculous. Plus he plays with mario and luigi and places around top 10 pretty much every tournament.
vids vids... hold on while i go gather some vids.
first off,
azen is not better than M2K.
M2k is the best in the country as of now and it'll probably stay that way.
Azen is 2nd
DSF 3rd
NL 4th
Boss 5th
though boss doesn't really pull in the tourney results of the players noted above him, his technical skill and spacing is ridiculous. Plus he plays with mario and luigi and places around top 10 pretty much every tournament.
vids vids... hold on while i go gather some vids.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
m2k wins with meta knight azen wins with lucario...in my eyes azen is better
prOAPC
Smash Lord
i like Boss' Luigi 
M2K's Metaknight beats Azen's Lucario, enough said
M2K's Metaknight beats Azen's Lucario, enough said
lil cj
Smash Lord
Who else does M2K use besides Meta Knight and Dedede?
Azen is a beast with Lucario and Ike!
Azen is a beast with Lucario and Ike!
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
Wow, this thread has been EVERYWHERE.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Boss is too good, as the title of this video states: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt53flmF2m0
this is just some random tourney match i found: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pG4T78q4pk
Note: don't doubt the players skill. lobos is like the best toon link on the east coast
g-reg is just good.
you said that about ninjalink
DSF wins with MK too, but i didn't put him above azen.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
i lol'd
why are you desperate to see a "pro" player using Lucas?
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
*Sigh*
10facepalms
10facepalms
lil cj
Smash Lord
Lol....your right
he actually uses Lucas...im not sure if its just for fun or for tournies or both...lol
but defintely Azen would make Lucas look good
Do u go to any tournies?
b/c I think u could do very well...your good with alot of characters especially Lucas
U could go pro
lol....because almost every character has a pro that represents them, is amazing to watch, and does good in tournies....
M2K-Meta Knight
Azen-Lucario
DSF-Snake
Ninja Link-Diddy
Boss-Mario/Luigi
Anther-Pikachu
Hylian-G&W
Dark Musician-Zelda
Seibrik-Dedede
Theres more I cant think of...
this helps develop some sort of meta game for a character..
Lucas doesnt hav pro like that i dont think...we hav very good Lucas players but not on the level of Azen and M2K....but you, Okin, Seanson, and Levitas are getting very close to that level....
ZMan
Smash Master
Me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seanson, APC, Okin, Galeon, and Levitas COMBINED
[/cockyness]
[/cockyness]
lil cj
Smash Lord
ZMan
Smash Master
lol. I'm going to a tournament next weekend (it would be this weekend bu UNM anime club is full of ****stains and don'tknow how to post a real date) and I'm totally going to enter under that name.
lil cj
Smash Lord
ZMan
Smash Master
I'm going to win in the UNM tourny. This way I can get GHWT for my self for Christmas!
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
why the sigh?
and
did you watch the videos?
uhm... i'm not sure if lucas would fit azen's playstyle.Lol....your right
he actually uses Lucas...im not sure if its just for fun or for tournies or both...lol
but defintely Azen would make Lucas look good
Do u go to any tournies?
b/c I think u could do very well...your good with alot of characters especially Lucas
U could go pro
lol....because almost every character has a pro that represents them, is amazing to watch, and does good in tournies....
M2K-Meta Knight
Azen-Lucario
DSF-Snake
Ninja Link-Diddy
Boss-Mario/Luigi
Anther-Pikachu
Hylian-G&W
Dark Musician-Zelda
Seibrik-Dedede
Theres more I cant think of...
this helps develop some sort of meta game for a character..
Lucas doesnt hav pro like that i dont think...we hav very good Lucas players but not on the level of Azen and M2K....but you, Okin, Seanson, and Levitas are getting very close to that level....
that and azen would probably play him like once the whole tourney lol. i couldn't see it.
I've been to ONE tournament, and i did horribly. I played turbogilman (Dedede main) and i lost. nothing big. next match i cracked under the pressure. i went from about to three stock him (some lucario main) easy to losing. that just killed me inside andddd... ya i lost lol. still no johns
i'm sure once i get out ot more tournaments i'll lose the nervousness and do pretty well. oh and teams me and my partner HeaT came in like... 6th or 7th, but i play zelda/luigi in teams so... ya that doesn't matter much.
DSF doesn't play snake anymore. he plays MK.
-sigh- levitas sucks (no offense). he's said it like 32748039249802 times. Noraa/Okin are the closest we're getting according to tourney results.
oh and i'm only good with lucas lol. my luigi is average. my diddy is below average. my mario is average, my marth is average. my MK sucks. my snake is average. my G&W is average. my D3 is average. my falco is a little above average. fox=average. DK sucks. oh but my zelda is actually pretty good. my wolf sucks. my falcon is beast lol. my ganon is average. my bowser sucks. i think that's everyone i play...
nope forgot IC's. and they suck
Pros don't use Lucas because Lucas pretty much sucks. You'll notice the characters with pros who are winning tournaments with them are mid to top tier. Not low tier.
It's just like Simna in Melee. He was really good with Ness but you didn't see him dominating tournaments or anything because Ness just plain sucked. Lucas sucks in Brawl. Accept it. Even if Azen picked up Lucas he would not do as well with him as he does with Lucario because Lucario is fundamentally a better character. No pro is going to pick up Lucas and be our spokesperson or whatever because they're not going to win high payouts and pros want to win money. Boss is odd because he plays somewhat ****ty characters and still manages to do well but you don't see him actually winning big tournaments. He just kind of does pretty well and everyone seems to like him. Oh yea and he uses Luigi too who is way better than Mario. Same with Gimpyfish. He doesn't do amazingly well with his Sheik nor did he ever with his Bowser in Melee but he's a cool guy who knows a lot about smash and everyone likes him.
Lucas has no savior and he never will. You're playing a ****ty *** character. Get over it. He's fun.
It's just like Simna in Melee. He was really good with Ness but you didn't see him dominating tournaments or anything because Ness just plain sucked. Lucas sucks in Brawl. Accept it. Even if Azen picked up Lucas he would not do as well with him as he does with Lucario because Lucario is fundamentally a better character. No pro is going to pick up Lucas and be our spokesperson or whatever because they're not going to win high payouts and pros want to win money. Boss is odd because he plays somewhat ****ty characters and still manages to do well but you don't see him actually winning big tournaments. He just kind of does pretty well and everyone seems to like him. Oh yea and he uses Luigi too who is way better than Mario. Same with Gimpyfish. He doesn't do amazingly well with his Sheik nor did he ever with his Bowser in Melee but he's a cool guy who knows a lot about smash and everyone likes him.
Lucas has no savior and he never will. You're playing a ****ty *** character. Get over it. He's fun.
lil cj
Smash Lord
Lol...yeah your right
Tournies will do that 2 ya...but its all good...your still a great player
I didnt know Noraa did tournies...
U use that many characters?.....me too...lol...I dont think Ive ever seen your Dedede, Falco,Wolf, Fox, Bowser,MK, IC's, and Ganon
And i think Ive played against your Zelda once(Can u teach me some new tricks with Zelda
)I mostly play your Lucas, Diddy, and Luigi (and I lose....lol)
Im still tryna get all my mains on your level...Lucas and Zelda r my top 2
My Ike,Lucario, MK, Peach, Diddy, Olimar, Sonic, and Wario(definitely) still needs alot of work lol
ZMan
Smash Master
Tyr- Brawl is a unique game in the fact that any character is tourny viable. If you don't belive me go watch SilentSpectre's Falcon as an example. It's just that with some characters (like Lucas) you have to work hard for your victories. No player has come along yet to prove Lucas's worth in a tournament setting.
Be patient, Tyr. Someone will get really good with Lucas and show how it's done. And that person is gonna be me (hopefully).
Be patient, Tyr. Someone will get really good with Lucas and show how it's done. And that person is gonna be me (hopefully).
I enjoy your enthusiasm ZMan but I have little hope. I want to be a good Lucas player because I like the character and I like beating people with a character they don't expect to have trouble against. But Lucas just doesn't have the potential that Lucario or Diddy or any of the other mentioned characters have. There are too many extraordinary players playing extraordinary characters for Lucas to have a chance at the highest level of play.
Take C3 for example. Two of our top Lucas players, Okin and Noraa were able to get 30th and 49th. This is where Lucas falls when it comes to large tournaments with high concentrations of experienced players.
Take C3 for example. Two of our top Lucas players, Okin and Noraa were able to get 30th and 49th. This is where Lucas falls when it comes to large tournaments with high concentrations of experienced players.
ToxiCrow
Smash Ace
tbh, i really havent. but thats only because i dont personally know anyone who uses her. keep in mind, i do like peach and i think she's good and i'm trying to learn her
i've played a good gannon b4 and i've lost; i wasnt just referenceing the tier list.
and i may not hav played a famous link or PT trainer, but i've played good ones and hav beaten them, so dont say i've never played anyone who doesnt use them well
on-topic: lucas is just really hard to be good with and it's going to take ALOT practice for anyone to put him to good use. but hey, it's possible
and good luck with that zman (and i'm not being sarcastic; i really mean it)
ZMan
Smash Master
Tyr- Lucas may be limited, but he is more limited by the player controlling him. If a Lucas user was to have excelled mindgames (s)he could beat out any of the pros, regardless of any character they are playing. We just haven't achieved this yet due to lack of tournament experince (**** I think only me, Seanson, and Galeon are the only ones here who were in to competitve Melee/other games, and ironacly enough we are arguably the best Lucases around). We as a community have to work around Lucas's weaknesses in order to win.
clowsui
Smash Legend
Every low tier person argues this LOL...the only character throughout any tier, right NOW, that I could see this argument even applying to is Lucario.
"Lucas is limited by the player controlling him, that's why he seems so bad"
SHOW how Lucas has the tools to win.
I don't believe he has Lucario's range of tools:
Disjointed Hitboxes that INCREASE in range as % goes up (read: if you have good DI)
Good Priority moves that go to the God Priority Range as % goes up
A multitude of KO options (Spammable FSmash, SHDAir, UAir)
Fantastic edgeguarding options (FAir, DAir, ASphere for pressure)
Good pressure options (Jab Combo, Aura Sphere, NAir?)
Good weight which favors his UpB range
Good rolls, decent grabs + good shield size
Mindgames are only effective to the extent that you are a better player than your opponent. Take for example Simna, undoubtedly one of the best Melee Ness players and a phenominal Melee player in his own right. Unfortunately, we watch him get completely annihilated by Ken in this video. Keep in mind that Simna is known by many for his mindgames.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9z0LYOWl3k
Now the question becomes, was he beaten as badly as he was because his character is worse or because he is a worse player in general? The answer, most likely is a little bit of one and a lot of the other. Ness as a character has very few countermeasures against a character such as Marth in Melee because fundamentally he is a better character than Ness how is easily gimped, has terrible grab range, extremely limited attack range etc. If we considered the two players Ken and Simna without bothering to include information on the character matchups, we would likely find that Ken is a better player although not by a large enough margin that a four stock would be likely when characters are not considered. Ken is widely considered to be the best Melee player of all time as is evidensed by his tournament record. Debate this if you wish.
Either way, the point is clear. Ness has a weakness against too many of the top tier characters in Melee. He is chaingrabbed by Sheik and generally destroyed by Marth as well. The best chances he has are against Fox and Falco because of comboing capabilities and even then he is still easily gimped. Because Sheik and Marth players are prevalent enough in the tournament scene for Melee, Ness becomes pretty much an unviable character. Simna is able to play Ness well, but in the end, when matched up against the best of the best, he simply cannot compete because of character weakness.
Now the argument is almost always brought up that Brawl is "more balanced" or that no character is "not tournament viable." But let's consider our OWN character match ups.
Captain Falcon 70-30
Ness 40-60
MK 35-65
Pika 50-50
Marth 30-70
DDD 55-45
Wario 50-50
Bowser 60-40
Ike 60-40
Jiggly 65-35
Gdorf 60-40
G and W 20-80
Snake 40-60
Wolf 40-60
Luigi 60-40
Samus 55-45
IC 50-50
Fox 60-40
TL 40-60
DK 25-75
Pit 45-55
Lucario 40-60
Sonic 55-45
Peach 40-60
PT 50-50
Falco 50-50
Diddy 45-55
Yoshi 40-60
ROB 40-60
Now in summary, we have the advantage in 10 matchups, go even in 5 and have a disadvantage in 14. Also keep in mind that these are likely skewed to some extent in Lucas's favour because it was created by a bunch of Lucas mains for the most part. This ratio is not all that bad considering Lucas is low tier.
However, there is more to be considered. Of the top ten most commonly placing characters in tournaments according to Ankoku's list, 7 have advantages over Lucas, 2 are even, and 1 we have the advantage of 55-45 (DDD.) Also note that two of our absolute worst matchups, G and W and Marth are included in this.
This means that the vast majority of our tournament battles are going to be matches in which we are at a disadvantage, possibly a very significant one, requiring us to be in some cases exponentially better than our opponent in order to win. If we take matchup ratios literally, this means for instance in 100 matches against Game and Watch, we are likely to win only 20. In a more realistic view of matchup ratios, we are required to be about 60% better than our opponent in skill in order to win the matchup. This is all theoretic of course but the point still stands.
The question you must ask yourself is, are my mindgames enough to make a 60% difference in my playing and my opponents playing at the highest levels of tournament play. Am I 60% better than Hylian, NoJ etc.?
The argument "tiers don't exist" has been around for as long as tiers have been and as of yet have very little to back them up. Metaknight dominates the tournament scene not because he is played by tons of people, but because he is played by the best people because they realize his potential as granted to him by his moveset and general physics.
I of course do not encourage the use of Metaknight, Snake or any of the other top tiers because frankly they get really boring. But expecting a Lucas player to be able to beat the top players with the top characters is unrealistic. The game is inherently unbalanced and will always be that way. The only way that Lucas is able to do well in tournaments is large differences in ability and if you're lucky, the simple fact that many players have almost no experience against him. You will be able to become a reknowned Lucas player amongst Lucas players. But that is the most you can hope for. Until someone is able to defeat M2K, Azen, DSF or others in a tournament setting, it is pretty much impossible for me to believe otherwise.
/rant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9z0LYOWl3k
Now the question becomes, was he beaten as badly as he was because his character is worse or because he is a worse player in general? The answer, most likely is a little bit of one and a lot of the other. Ness as a character has very few countermeasures against a character such as Marth in Melee because fundamentally he is a better character than Ness how is easily gimped, has terrible grab range, extremely limited attack range etc. If we considered the two players Ken and Simna without bothering to include information on the character matchups, we would likely find that Ken is a better player although not by a large enough margin that a four stock would be likely when characters are not considered. Ken is widely considered to be the best Melee player of all time as is evidensed by his tournament record. Debate this if you wish.
Either way, the point is clear. Ness has a weakness against too many of the top tier characters in Melee. He is chaingrabbed by Sheik and generally destroyed by Marth as well. The best chances he has are against Fox and Falco because of comboing capabilities and even then he is still easily gimped. Because Sheik and Marth players are prevalent enough in the tournament scene for Melee, Ness becomes pretty much an unviable character. Simna is able to play Ness well, but in the end, when matched up against the best of the best, he simply cannot compete because of character weakness.
Now the argument is almost always brought up that Brawl is "more balanced" or that no character is "not tournament viable." But let's consider our OWN character match ups.
Captain Falcon 70-30
Ness 40-60
MK 35-65
Pika 50-50
Marth 30-70
DDD 55-45
Wario 50-50
Bowser 60-40
Ike 60-40
Jiggly 65-35
Gdorf 60-40
G and W 20-80
Snake 40-60
Wolf 40-60
Luigi 60-40
Samus 55-45
IC 50-50
Fox 60-40
TL 40-60
DK 25-75
Pit 45-55
Lucario 40-60
Sonic 55-45
Peach 40-60
PT 50-50
Falco 50-50
Diddy 45-55
Yoshi 40-60
ROB 40-60
Now in summary, we have the advantage in 10 matchups, go even in 5 and have a disadvantage in 14. Also keep in mind that these are likely skewed to some extent in Lucas's favour because it was created by a bunch of Lucas mains for the most part. This ratio is not all that bad considering Lucas is low tier.
However, there is more to be considered. Of the top ten most commonly placing characters in tournaments according to Ankoku's list, 7 have advantages over Lucas, 2 are even, and 1 we have the advantage of 55-45 (DDD.) Also note that two of our absolute worst matchups, G and W and Marth are included in this.
This means that the vast majority of our tournament battles are going to be matches in which we are at a disadvantage, possibly a very significant one, requiring us to be in some cases exponentially better than our opponent in order to win. If we take matchup ratios literally, this means for instance in 100 matches against Game and Watch, we are likely to win only 20. In a more realistic view of matchup ratios, we are required to be about 60% better than our opponent in skill in order to win the matchup. This is all theoretic of course but the point still stands.
The question you must ask yourself is, are my mindgames enough to make a 60% difference in my playing and my opponents playing at the highest levels of tournament play. Am I 60% better than Hylian, NoJ etc.?
The argument "tiers don't exist" has been around for as long as tiers have been and as of yet have very little to back them up. Metaknight dominates the tournament scene not because he is played by tons of people, but because he is played by the best people because they realize his potential as granted to him by his moveset and general physics.
I of course do not encourage the use of Metaknight, Snake or any of the other top tiers because frankly they get really boring. But expecting a Lucas player to be able to beat the top players with the top characters is unrealistic. The game is inherently unbalanced and will always be that way. The only way that Lucas is able to do well in tournaments is large differences in ability and if you're lucky, the simple fact that many players have almost no experience against him. You will be able to become a reknowned Lucas player amongst Lucas players. But that is the most you can hope for. Until someone is able to defeat M2K, Azen, DSF or others in a tournament setting, it is pretty much impossible for me to believe otherwise.
/rant
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
get burned, Lucas mains.
Edit:
Actually, instead of spam... a couple of corrections.
@ Pink Fresh: Yes I saw the videos.
@ Whoever Said DSF does not play Snake: He still does, he won a tournament last week with Snake. I was there.
@ Tyr: I think I'd have enough strong points to argue that Lucas should be a couple spots above Low Tier, but not that much higher. So we're all playing a ****ty *** low-middle tier character.
Edit:
Actually, instead of spam... a couple of corrections.
@ Pink Fresh: Yes I saw the videos.
@ Whoever Said DSF does not play Snake: He still does, he won a tournament last week with Snake. I was there.
@ Tyr: I think I'd have enough strong points to argue that Lucas should be a couple spots above Low Tier, but not that much higher. So we're all playing a ****ty *** low-middle tier character.
ZMan
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaik3Efwdxw
Proof a low tier character can compete at high levels of play.
I think the point I'm trying get across is that any character can be played at high levels of play with the rigght mindset and right mindgames.
All right, I'm done now
Proof a low tier character can compete at high levels of play.
I think the point I'm trying get across is that any character can be played at high levels of play with the rigght mindset and right mindgames.
All right, I'm done now
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
really?
DSF usually plays MK nowadays.
There are tons of good lucas' out there that do perfectly well against high tiers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVIbbxpyAh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StuA_WadcWo&feature=related
clowsui
Smash Legend
@ZMan: That's an MM LOL...plus I'm PRETTY sure DSF won the MM. Just because they can COMPETE doesn't mean they'll win.
@Chu245: Classic argument that FAILS. Looking at two or three people does not show you a trend. Moreover first vid is moot because it's a friendly, the second is from July and it's not in the US, the nation with the highest developed metagame.
@Chu245: Classic argument that FAILS. Looking at two or three people does not show you a trend. Moreover first vid is moot because it's a friendly, the second is from July and it's not in the US, the nation with the highest developed metagame.
ZMan
Smash Master
Deva won that set. And there's more validiy in MMs than there is in friendlys are good awful Wifi.
Chu- Mekos in an online player, he doesn't count.
Chu- Mekos in an online player, he doesn't count.
Noraa
Smash Lord
Try if you could also take into account the region me and okin are playing in.
Yes we did fairly poor but we both had hard brackets, i lost to Boss 2-1 and a falco player 2-1, i ended up going 2-2 which was breaking even and i believe okin did the same. One loss to Lobos and i dont know the other.
Then i went to Little Rock arkansas and went through with a breeze until i got to a wario main and i couldnt handle it.
I never played melee for real so im far behind but im tryin to catch up. I think if me and okin could just break down our playstyles and just explain what we do we can build as lucas mains.
For me, i go through phases, first was dair phase because i really liked the damage and the follow up to it if you get all the hits.
Dair-> dtilt->fsmash
Footstool->dair->dair
Dair->utilt.
Then i hit the jab cancle, (works magic people).
Now i made my own playstyle with things i know work for me. Im not a dair lucas, im all about nair, jab, jab cancle, pkf.
1x jab->Nair>utilt (fav thing in the world)
2x jab->dtilt->ftilt
(starting combo) 2x Ftilt[angled downwards] try it. suprise lol
Nair->2x jab->ftilt
2x jab means 2 hits 1x is one his so on and so on lol
that is what my game consists of ^^.
Most used aproach for me is airdodge because you can buff the attack to come out fast once you land.
Also, i run away instead of rolling.
any one else?
Yes we did fairly poor but we both had hard brackets, i lost to Boss 2-1 and a falco player 2-1, i ended up going 2-2 which was breaking even and i believe okin did the same. One loss to Lobos and i dont know the other.
Then i went to Little Rock arkansas and went through with a breeze until i got to a wario main and i couldnt handle it.
I never played melee for real so im far behind but im tryin to catch up. I think if me and okin could just break down our playstyles and just explain what we do we can build as lucas mains.
For me, i go through phases, first was dair phase because i really liked the damage and the follow up to it if you get all the hits.
Dair-> dtilt->fsmash
Footstool->dair->dair
Dair->utilt.
Then i hit the jab cancle, (works magic people).
Now i made my own playstyle with things i know work for me. Im not a dair lucas, im all about nair, jab, jab cancle, pkf.
1x jab->Nair>utilt (fav thing in the world)
2x jab->dtilt->ftilt
(starting combo) 2x Ftilt[angled downwards] try it. suprise lol
Nair->2x jab->ftilt
2x jab means 2 hits 1x is one his so on and so on lol
that is what my game consists of ^^.
Most used aproach for me is airdodge because you can buff the attack to come out fast once you land.
Also, i run away instead of rolling.
any one else?
prOAPC
Smash Lord
noraa, i think you have the most similar Lucas to mine.