Character Competitive Impressions

[Speed Boost]

Lol. Mega man is incredibly limited as a character. That's what happens when 3 of your moves are essentially the same and your other tilts and smashes have mountains of endlag. Also, poor autocancels (BAir FAir don't AC out of SH, UAir only AC's out of a FH and DAir requires a double jump to AC).

Tell me more about my character's matchups and how they're played at a high level. I'd love to hear how pelleting Rosa with luma around gives her trouble and how Samus outzones Mega man with her assortment of long range projectiles.

Maybe you could educate us on the MUs instead of pointing out the flaws in our theories then. We are just guessing man.

 

[Ikes]

My only advice is to cut things out before Shaya calls in a frame-6 airstrike.

does Shaya main Air Force?

 

[Ffamran]

Something that people don't consider about reaction time enough, I think, is that you have to be able to tell from the first frame that something is happening to react to it.

If I've got a move that's 16 frames of startup, but there's no animation change until F14, you aren't reacting to that.

Just something to throw out there about reactions.

Welcome to the life of Falco's Dair. He winds the frick up while Captain Falcon and Ganondorf just lift their legs and stomp and Ike and Roy just slam their swords down. Wii Fit Trainer assuming a pose first before stomping doesn't help her frame 20 Dair.

 

[Nysyr]

Something that people don't consider about reaction time enough, I think, is that you have to be able to tell from the first frame that something is happening to react to it.

If I've got a move that's 16 frames of startup, but there's no animation change until F14, you aren't reacting to that.

Just something to throw out there about reactions.

There's truth to this, some moves have far more telling animations.

Despite being about the same range and startup, tell me what % of times are you hit by Falcons Fsmash instead of Lucarios? Number is probably pretty different.

Edit: Funny how the only time I can really stomach this thread is when were discussing ZeRo stuff; the other times its oneliners and rhetorical questions.

Also this reaction site is so fraud lmao.

Spoiler

Well, yeah the numbers are gonna be different. How many people play Lucario compared to Captain Falcon?

I'm talking % wise, not bulk.

 

[Man Li Gi]

There's truth to this, some moves have far more telling animations.

Despite being about the same range and startup, tell me what % of times are you hit by Falcons Fsmash instead of Lucarios? Number is probably pretty different.

Also this reaction site is so fraud lmao.

Spoiler

Well, yeah the numbers are gonna be different. How many people play Lucario compared to Captain Falcon?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Well, yeah the numbers are gonna be different. How many people play Lucario compared to Captain Falcon?

Yeah but Falcon's Fsmash also doesn't match the animation. There's like a full character length between where his arm ends and where the hitbox ends.
And then there's Ness's up air, which does pretty much the same thing. And Mewtwo's Uair that whiffs during most of the animation. Some are more wonkey than others.

 

[Physics]

What do you guys think Ganondorf would need to bring him up a bit?
I say:
-give him less lag after his down throw
-less landing lag on up air
-make his jab come out at an earlier frame
and I'm not sure if this would make him TOO strong, but I think making his down air auto cancel on short hop would be pretty sweet, but that may be too much.
Thoughts?

 

[Routa]

Worst Jab? I have to disagree when it comes to Ganondorf. It deals nice damage, comes at a good speed and has ok KB. The problem is that... It gets outclassed by his F-tilt.

If you ask me G&W has the worst Jab. Yeah it comes out "fastish" but the multihit part sucks. I mean I used to main G&W and I gotta tell you it has HUGE end lag. Also it is easiest multihit Jab to DI out off. Tho it deals nice damage and has nice KB (I have got most kill if we don't count the gimps), but due to ****ty multihit it blows.

 

[Ikes]

Samus has the worst jab
****ing thing cant even link properly

 

[ILOVESMASH]

has the worst jab by far.

 

[A_Kae]

Samus has the worst jab
****ing thing cant even link properly

And, unfortunately, it's not supposed to.

Nintendo is totally aware of this; One of the tips makes mention of this.

Certainly could be changed, but I doubt it will be.

 

[Minordeth]

Reaction time isn't quite binary, but almost. Somewhere in 10-15 frames (depending on the person) is normally the threshold for reacting to something you are actively looking for, with full focus.

Edit: If Link grab was f6, grabbing someone blocking a bomb toss from max tether range would probably be guaranteed. (It'd be close, hard to say for sure by looking at it)

Yup. Given that during a fighting game you have multiple areas of focus, you have to choose what to anticipate and react to wisely. I think spontaneous reaction time to a unanticipated move is going to be a bit higher than 10-15 frames. No player, even Zero, can consistently react at 15 frames.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What do you guys think Ganondorf would need to bring him up a bit?
I say:
-give him less lag after his down throw
-less landing lag on up air
-make his jab come out at an earlier frame
and I'm not sure if this would make him TOO strong, but I think making his down air auto cancel on short hop would be pretty sweet, but that may be too much.
Thoughts?

If you just wanted to make him better then all he needs is flight, a size decrease, a weight increase and a frame 1 Warlock punch.
But we want a balanced game don't we?
Ganon is fine the way he is. He already has the tools he needs to execute a gameplan AND his opponents.

 

[Man Li Gi]

To balance Ganon, it means you have to make his jab not a joke and make the z button actually be a grab, not "I have to hug you real close". AC dair and other things are good, but if we want to go under the umbrella of "balancing" characters, then no.

In total, if Ganon's hurbox wasn't so exposed for every attack, we could be talking about a different character.

I wonder, do what people even recognize as balance? I mean we throw the term out so much, but I've yet to see how people perceive it. Is it just a catch all term to make sure people don't whine for a ludicrous amount of changes on characters? Sorry with all these questions, but I feel like these are the questions we should be answering (ie, broader meta discussion instead of focusing on a couple traits from characters on repeat). Maybe that's just me tho.

 

[Physics]

To balance Ganon, it means you have to make his jab not a joke and make the z button actually be a grab, not "I have to hug you real close". AC dair and other things are good, but if we want to go under the umbrella of "balancing" characters, then no.

In total, if Ganon's hurbox wasn't so exposed for every attack, we could be talking about a different character.

I wonder, do what people even recognize as balance? I mean we throw the term out so much, but I've yet to see how people perceive it. Is it just a catch all term to make sure people don't whine for a ludicrous amount of changes on characters? Sorry with all these questions, but I feel like these are the questions we should be answering (ie, broader meta discussion instead of focusing on a couple traits from characters on repeat). Maybe that's just me tho.

I agree with you. His jab and grab need some fixing, all the other stuff are just nice luxuries.

That's the issue I've been having with this thread... Quite a few people in this thread just end up saying that a lot of characters are good where they are... Does that imply that those characters are balanced? Should we be nerfing top tiers and buffing low tiers and trying to "balance" all characters around mid tier? Or "balance" characters around high tier?
I don't even know if what I'm saying makes sense because it's 4:30am...

 

[A_Kae]

To balance Ganon, it means you have to make his jab not a joke and make the z button actually be a grab, not "I have to hug you real close". AC dair and other things are good, but if we want to go under the umbrella of "balancing" characters, then no.

In total, if Ganon's hurbox wasn't so exposed for every attack, we could be talking about a different character.

I wonder, do what people even recognize as balance? I mean we throw the term out so much, but I've yet to see how people perceive it. Is it just a catch all term to make sure people don't whine for a ludicrous amount of changes on characters? Sorry with all these questions, but I feel like these are the questions we should be answering (ie, broader meta discussion instead of focusing on a couple traits from characters on repeat). Maybe that's just me tho.

'Balance' to me means that every character has a reasonable amount of viable and fair options available.

It means that character choice overall won't lead to victory or defeat. Characters will have good and bad matchups, but overall, you won't be losing because of character choice.

In short, to me, balance means that skill is what matters the most.

I haven't ever really thought about this, so this might not be exactly how I feel here. This is just how best I can put my feelings in to words right now.

 

[FlynnCL]

I don't really understand what they were going for with Samus's jab. The fact that it's intentionally wonky is just a joke.

There's this sweet spot around mid percent where it starts to link properly, but it doesn't last long as it'll soon knock them too far back. I was hoping there'd be some unique jab 1 combo possibilities with this but I've really yet to find anything. Not even jab 1 > f-tilt works as well as I'd hoped. At least it can be used to jab reset fat hurtboxes...

I don't like thinking of hypothetical buffs that much, but Ganondorf would probably enjoy getting his Brawl air-speed back and a subtle reduction on landing for forward air and down air (like 2-3 frames max). One of those 1.25x speed animation buffs for jab would be a godsend.

 

[TriTails]

As long as Luigi exist, Mega Man will always be relevant (Not 80:20 Mega's favor or something wtf like that. Maybe leaning to 65:35 since pellets can be exploited by shields? Or maybe even 60:40? But yeah, I'm pretty much being generous).

To balance Ganon, it means you have to make his jab not a joke and make the z button actually be a grab, not "I have to hug you real close".

I second this. His grab is like... slower and has much less range than Luigi's. I mean, come on Ganon, STRETCH THAT FRIGGIN HAND!

And maybe make his jab a frame faster or two... but it'll probably be too fast for it's own good.

I wonder, do what people even recognize as balance? I mean we throw the term out so much, but I've yet to see how people perceive it. Is it just a catch all term to make sure people don't whine for a ludicrous amount of changes on characters? Sorry with all these questions, but I feel like these are the questions we should be answering (ie, broader meta discussion instead of focusing on a couple traits from characters on repeat). Maybe that's just me tho.

I recognize 'balanced game' as 'a game where there are no MUs higher than 6:4 or 4:6 exist'. I shouldn't be winning against you because I pick Mega and you pick D3, even though I'm the weaker and less skilled one. I also shouldn't be winning when I pick Brawl Ice Climbers and you pick Brawl Ganon (90:10 IC's favor OMG. Never played Brawl but just... what). 60:40 and 40:60 are at least winnable with enough efforts, but it's just unfair when people less skilled than us winning because 'this is a 30:70 MU in X's favor and he pick X while you pick Y'. And yes, I frown when fighting Ganons as Luigi.

 

[Teshie U]

I think Mega Man will age well as Smash 4 goes on and his meta slowly advances. He is such a unique and exciting character. Unfortunately, he is also intimidating to pick up as a main.

I could see Samus out zoning Mega Man though. She has longer range projectiles in general and her ZAir helps when Mega Man get in his sweet spot lemon range.

Pellets invalidate both missiles and smaller charge shots. The matchup isn't too bad imo. Grab outranges pellets and if you get time to fully charge (or half charge) your nB, all of megaman's projectile spam has to show you respect.

Mega is stronger close up just because he can do jump nairs and hit tall characters with rising bair.

Lol. Mega man is incredibly limited as a character. That's what happens when 3 of your moves are essentially the same and your other tilts and smashes have mountains of endlag. Also, poor autocancels (BAir FAir don't AC out of SH, UAir only AC's out of a FH and DAir requires a double jump to AC).

Tell me more about my character's matchups and how they're played at a high level. I'd love to hear how pelleting Rosa with luma around gives her trouble and how Samus outzones Mega man with her assortment of long range projectiles.

I hate Fair, the move is so weak and so laggy that its hard not to get punished for landing it.

Uair doesn't really need an autocancel. It sends out a lingering projectile and is pretty low on landing lag anyway. Its pretty safe on shield, probably positive on shield vs taller characters.

Crash Bomb gives Rosalina a hard time. I think she honestly has to approach megaman. Gravitational is too laggy to use at mid range, crash bomb infinite's luma while locking rosa down, metal blade goes through her endless shields...




I don't think Ganondorf needs longer grab range. He has side B and deals with shields just fine with Bair, Dtilt, Upsmash. A faster jab would kind of complete him as a character. The way he is designed just wouldn't be fair if his grab game became more dangerous. He already beats any attacks you might be throwing out.

 

[Luco]

On that note, how does Megaman fare against Lucas and Ness? The PSI Magnet buff probably makes pellets not very spammable since they can heal up a lot of damage by repeatedly absorbing them. Lucas even has the benefit of being able to hit Megaman with his version of it if he tries getting up close.

How many people here enjoy my analysis of MUs? Or do people just skip these posts? Genuinely interested :O

So this one is... Interesting. Basically a good Megaman should, in theory, give us a lot of trouble. Alternating metal blade with everything else makes PSI Magnet almost useless except in rare situations. If they play whilst considering your options then you shouldn't be getting too many heals. Once we do get in though, we do really well, he's a bit of combo fodder and abusable off-stage. He's also annoyingly heavy! His aerials, especially Fair can beat us out in the air but we'll punish him pretty badly for a whiffed aerial on shield.

In theory I've always thought this MU was even or even had the potential to be -1, but in practice it never happens. I don't really know why. Probably even-ish for both.

People seem to ask a bit about Ness' MUs (Lucas' meta is still under-developed so don't ask me there), so I might go ahead and post a rough chart outlining my thoughts in case anyone is interested. I'll do that another time though, and I'd like to be sure it's fine to post that here (I mean, I'll explain most of the interesting values, and would respond happily if people asked me about any others).

 

[Spinosaurus]

MU charts are pretty in line with what I'd expect out of this thread actually, provided they're not outrageous. Better than tier lists anywho.

I'm interested.

 

[Kofu]

If you ask me G&W has the worst Jab. Yeah it comes out "fastish" but the multihit part sucks. I mean I used to main G&W and I gotta tell you it has HUGE end lag. Also it is easiest multihit Jab to DI out off. Tho it deals nice damage and has nice KB (I have got most kill if we don't count the gimps), but due to ****ty multihit it blows.

Not really, it's a pretty good jab. Its biggest issue is the poor transition from the single hit to the rapid jab. Often characters can fall to the ground and shield it or, worse, hit Game & Watch with an attack (it could use a buff here like Diddy and Ike got). The rapid jab itself is pretty average. Sometimes characters can escape but usually not, particularly if you end it ASAP. You have to remember that it's a fat disjoint that can catch landings well.

Easiest to escape are probably Bowser Jr.'s and the Pits' rapid jabs (but Junior's is crazy strong in damage and knockback and the Pits have a Gentleman to fall back on).

WFT's jab is pretty meh... from the front, because of how it can whiff on short characters and it honestly doesn't link great. The back hit is annoying though.

 

[Shaya]

I was really not amused by the ZeRo 'hate', to put it lightly.
Can't even go to a tournament without this happening :<
He doesn't describe himself as anything other than someone expressing opinion, on a multitude of occasions too, and just about anyone who has ever followed the guy knows this. I would hope on Smashboards that a top player would feel comfortable contributing among peers but when opinions can have such immature responses I can definitely justify self-estrangement (and 'incidents' impact other top level sway too). Knowing who he is and all be it not a humble saint, he's a good guy keeping thousands of people in a wider audience interested in our game. There's a base level of respect necessary. He may not extensively go out of his way to seek knowledge but he tends to take on board solid information he's given.
And let's be real here: balance by Sakurai has been pretty sane thus far and I doubt his videos have sway in that regard.

What is he right about with 80%+ accuracy? Whether a character is nationally viable/a top threat. Marth be not. Link thus far shows no signs of it either.

 

[A_Kae]

I was really not amused by the ZeRo 'hate', to put it lightly.
Can't even go to a tournament without this happening :<
He doesn't describe himself as anything other than expressing opinion, on a multitude of occasions too, and just about anyone who has ever followed the guy knows this. I would hope on Smashboards that a top player would feel comfortable contributing among peers but when opinions can have such immature responses I can definitely justify self-estrangement. Knowing who he is and all be it not a humble saint, he's a good guy keeping thousands of people in a wider audience interested in our game. Base level of respect necessary. He may not extensively go out of his way to seek knowledge but he tends to take on board solid information he's given.
And let's be real here: balance by Sakurai has been pretty sane thus far and I doubt his videos have sway in much regard.

What is he right about with 80%+ accuracy? Whether a character is nationally viable/a top threat. Marth be not. Link thus far shows no signs of it either.

I don't him hate him, myself. I never meant to imply that. I can't say for other people.

All I meant to say was that he's talking about things that he doesn't understand totally (and to be fair, I don't either, not as well as I want to). Specifically the Marth buffs that he suggested. I really respect him, both as a player, and with what he's trying to do with these videos. I think he legitimately wants to help and keep people interested in smash.

I just don't think he's able to provide the level of information on some subjects that he's trying to. That's all.

 

[shadowmm151]

I don't him hate him, myself. I never meant to imply that. I can't say for other people.

All I meant to say was that he's talking about things that he doesn't understand totally (and to be fair, I don't either, not as well as I want to). Specifically the Marth buffs that he suggested. I really respect him, both as a player, and with what he's trying to do with these videos. I think he legitimately wants to help and keep people interested in smash.

I just don't think he's able to provide the level of information on some subjects that he's trying to. That's all.

You're not entirely wrong there either, but a lot of his viewers really just want to know his opinion. An opinion isn't LAW, but it does give a viewer perspective. Perspective of something many of them are not; a pro. His opinions are just that though; opinions. Do I think some are correct? Yeah, some I do. Others I don't. I agree that Ike's buffs are real. Falco's, Marth's, Lucina's aren't as big a deal as other sites might have you believe. Links' are solid, but he still has the same issues. I agree with these. I don't agree that Roy is as good as he thinks though. I feel Roy is an inferior Captain Falcon honestly. Same tactics, but Falcon just does it better. I don't think Roy is bad either, but I honestly feel he's just too hype right now for anyone to really get it.

So even if others might be more "suited" to providing info to certain subjects than ZeRo, he's entitled to give his own opinions just like anyone else and more importantly, these are often going to be REQUESTED of him. There is nothing wrong with fulfilling fan demand.

 

[A_Kae]

You're not entirely wrong there either, but a lot of his viewers really just want to know his opinion. An opinion isn't LAW, but it does give a viewer perspective. Perspective of something many of them are not; a pro. His opinions are just that though; opinions. Do I think some are correct? Yeah, some I do. Others I don't. I agree that Ike's buffs are real. Falco's, Marth's, Lucina's aren't as big a deal as other sites might have you believe. Links' are solid, but he still has the same issues. I agree with these. I don't agree that Roy is as good as he thinks though. I feel Roy is an inferior Captain Falcon honestly. Same tactics, but Falcon just does it better. I don't think Roy is bad either, but I honestly feel he's just too hype right now for anyone to really get it.

So even if others might be more "suited" to providing info to certain subjects than ZeRo, he's entitled to give his own opinions just like anyone else and more importantly, these are often going to be REQUESTED of him. There is nothing wrong with fulfilling fan demand.

He's absolutely entitled to give his opinions, I agree. And he can be right and wrong, he's not infallible.

I don't want to get in to another argument on what ZeRo's said, and I doubt the mods will take kindly to it, so that's all I have to say.

 

[Sasaki]

Dr.Mario isn't the second worst character in Smash 4. i should atleast go to B.

 

[Ikes]

Just a hypothetical question, but how would characters with a tether fare if there were some sort of "z-reverse" where you can use zair to turn around similarly to a b-reverse? what would this do for characters like samus, toon link, or lucas?

 

[DMWN]

I know I'm a week late to the party, but Lucas in A-? That's a little generous, no?

 

[FlynnCL]

I'm really curious, but am I missing something huge about Marth in this game because some of the replies I read seem to imply that he could be this sleeper high tier and any speed alterations would make him a wall heavy, centralizing threat to the entire meta. I'm not talking about short-hop double fair (and neither was ZeRo I believe), but more-so better landing or auto-cancels for greater reward and safety.

I can't even begin to fault ZeRo for saying that Marth gets very little reward in this game. Marth mains are okay with how punishable or telegraphed almost every approach is? Or how there's a huge lack of follow-ups for getting a grab with such a mediocre grab range? I'm really curious because only here do I see anger towards ZeRo asking for Marth buffs.

For Link, a frame 6 tether grab would indeed be silly but ZeRo's main point is that Link suffers tremendously against shield. This is something I've heard many times and it's not wrong? I don't get the hate.

 

[bc1910]

As @Amazing Ampharos said, it doesn't matter. 2 amazing throws > 4 good throws. Ness's back throw killing is objectively better than lucas having 3 kill throws that kill later. Plus Lucas's grab is complete ***

They both have one amazing throw, Ness Bthrow and Lucas Dthrow, Ness' Dthrow is not amazing. 1 good, 1 amazing, 2 above average vs 3 good, 1 amazing. The latter set is clearly better, the only discrepancy comes from if you think Ness' Bthrow is amazing enough to give him the better set overall, which I do not agree with, but I can see why some would. I already explained my reasoning for this.

 

[meleebrawler]

Pellets invalidate both missiles and smaller charge shots. The matchup isn't too bad imo. Grab outranges pellets and if you get time to fully charge (or half charge) your nB, all of megaman's projectile spam has to show you respect.

Mega is stronger close up just because he can do jump nairs and hit tall characters with rising bair.

Megaman's ground speed isn't exactly impressive, plus short hops are actually pretty tricky to do with him since
his jump squat is so short.

In fact it's one of a few things that make him so tricky to play optimally. Other things include angling Metal Blades in the air
(can lead to Mega Uppers if used well on ground opponents), learning to use Leaf Shield as a close range safety net, footstool combos with z-dropped blades (bit of a general character thing, but still)...

I'm really curious, but am I missing something huge about Marth in this game because some of the replies I read seem to imply that he could be this sleeper high tier and any speed alterations would make him a wall heavy, centralizing threat to the entire meta. I'm not talking about short-hop double fair (and neither was ZeRo I believe), but more-so better landing or auto-cancels for greater reward and safety.

I can't even begin to fault ZeRo for saying that Marth gets very little reward in this game. Marth mains are okay with how punishable or telegraphed almost every approach is? Or how there's a huge lack of follow-ups for getting a grab with such a mediocre grab range? I'm really curious because only here do I see anger towards ZeRo asking for Marth buffs.

For Link, a frame 6 tether grab would indeed be silly but ZeRo's main point is that Link suffers tremendously against shield. This is something I've heard many times and it's not wrong? I don't get the hate.

Probably because people believe Marth has the niche of tipper-reward spacing without getting other gravy features that put him clearly above other sword users. Just look at what happened to . Melee Marth just kinda did everything he did but better.
Now has the swift frame data, auto-cancels and grab game over to distinguish him, in exchange for his spacing
game not being as rewarding. Instead of grabbing to beat shields, Marth has uncharged Shield Breakers, plus his grab is pretty ordinary for a non-tether. Unless you consider this to be normal:

Basically, Marth has been restricted to his "cold" playstyle from Brawl and given the "hot" to Roy.

 

[A_Kae]

Probably because people believe Marth has the niche of tipper-reward spacing without getting other gravy features that put him clearly above other sword users. Just look at what happened to . Melee Marth just kinda did everything he did but better.
Now has the swift frame data, auto-cancels and grab game over to distinguish him, in exchange for his spacing
game not being as rewarding. Instead of grabbing to beat shields, Marth has uncharged Shield Breakers, plus his grab is pretty ordinary for a non-tether. Unless you consider this to be normal:

Autocancels are nearly identical. Roy's fair autocancels 3 frames earlier than Marth's, that's the only change. And since Roy's airtime is lower, his autocancel windows are technically worse, since Marth can autocancel some of his aerials from a short hop, while Roy can't.

Frame data is very similar. Roy's got some moves that are better, Marth has some that are better.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy

I'm not saying that Marth is better than Roy here, I'm just correcting some of your data.

 

[TriTails]

Am I seeing this right.

Roy has 3rd fastest airspeed.

What.

 

[A_Kae]

Am I seeing this right.

Roy has 3rd fastest airspeed.

What.

It's correct. Specifically, it's between 1.269 and 1.21.

Roy is fast.

 

[Luco]

Oh dang that's right, Town and Sydney is going on. If anyone's not up to date on it, it's supposed to be a major but no-one travels to Sydney and I believe there's some great Aussie players in attendance. I guess we forgot to alert @SmashCapps to it but here's the stream if any of you cool cats are interested. I think it's late-ish at night over there right now but in 12 hours time this stream will probably be showcasing most of the smash 4 pro bracket.

http://www.twitch.tv/sydneysmash

Ahh yeah it starts at 12PM, so a little under 14 hours away.

MU charts are pretty in line with what I'd expect out of this thread actually, provided they're not outrageous. Better than tier lists anywho.

I'm interested.

Okay, I'll start working on it now! =D

 

[meleebrawler]

Autocancels are nearly identical. Roy's fair autocancels 3 frames earlier than Marth's, that's the only change. And since Roy's airtime is lower, his autocancel windows are technically worse, since Marth can autocancel some of his aerials from a short hop, while Roy can't.

Frame data is very similar. Roy's got some moves that are better, Marth has some that are better.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy

I'm not saying that Marth is better than Roy here, I'm just correcting some of your data.

Fair enough. Just couldn't quite put my finger on why Roy's aggro game is better than Marth's other than close sweetspots.
Guess it's overall movement speed that puts him over. Plus Flare Blade being a monster bait.

 

[Ikes]

wait doesnt this mean his air speed is better than Wario's, since Yoshi and Jiggs are 1 and 2?

that's ****ing insane

 

[Spinosaurus]

Horizontal air speed is better, but not necessarily his overall air mobility.

 

[TriTails]

Unlike Wario or Yoshi though, Roy does not have a projectile.

Okay. A swordman has one of the fastest airspeed. Meanwhile, I'm stuck between two big characters, one being a fat penguin while the other is a bulky muscular evil chokey guy, in airspeed competition and I'm just a plumber that weight no more than a villager or a doctor.

On a serious note, how is LM's aerials? I usually just use them for lulz but N-air is quite a combo breaker.