Character Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

He tried that in the 3D version lol
And he's obviously refusing to use Sheik because of Melee.

He should main fox B)

 

[Asdioh]

How fast does an UpB OoS need to be in order to punish Sheik's Fair on shield? And yes I'm asking because I'm wondering if Upper Cutter (frame 6 I thiiiink) can hit it. Obviously it outranges it, but that requires a read. What frame is ZSS UpB? I assume that doesn't work on Fair.

 

[Shaya]

ZSS Up-B is 4 frames, 5 because you require a JC.

Sheik's fair is roughly -3 on shield at latest frame hit + perfect auto cancel.
-6 or so on perfect fast fall.

Generally if a Sheik fairs too close the up-b is always a punish; BUT, it can't be too close or it'll be a 90% chance Sheik falls out.

 

[thehard]

M2K didn't/doesn't want to play Sonic because he thought people would hate him for it. Last time I saw him try was in December.

I think he should main Rosalina, I remember seeing him get hyped over the character in a play session with ZeRo, saying stuff like "Dabuz isn't using this character to half her potential"... taken with a grain of salt obviously, but I feel they could mesh well.

 

[hypersonicJD]

He is seriously not going to play Sonic because everyone would hate him? Even though Rosalina is also hated? It's just... *sigh* More Sonic potential dumpted

 

[Unknownkid]

He is seriously not going to play Sonic because everyone would hate him? Even though Rosalina is also hated? It's just... *sigh* More Sonic potential dumpted

Maybe his Sonic is more campier than his Rosalina. I mean ask yourself... Would you rather fight Sonic or Rosalina in general? Would you rather fight M2K's Sonic or his Rosalina in a tournament?

 

[|RK|]

I don't necessarily agree with Larry, but I always thought it would be cool for every top player to have a mid/low-tier character on the side. I think it's a great demonstration of skill, and it helps to advance the meta for lesser known characters. But that's just me.

 

[Makorel]

I mean ask yourself... Would you rather fight Sonic or Rosalina in general?

This is a trick question isn't it?

Also I'm loving how these Diddies are using the rocket barrel to come in at really odd trajectories. I'm seeing a lot more to this character now that the focus isn't on down throw to up air.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ |RK| Exactly, I think that there's too much missed potential in characters who pros don't put the time and effort into. I rarely have ever seen high tiers like Peach or Link appear, a Wario or mid-tier Jigglypuff appear, and yet the most prominent mid-tier I've seen so far (in terms of tournaments) is Ganondorf in the Xanadu tournaments. Like, Ganondorf is one of the more beloved mid/low tier characters that seems to have a lot of people around, but no pros.

But I want to see people play the other characters, I actually want to see D3, Link, Toon Link, etc. get nationals instead of Diddy Kong, Sheik and Sonic.

@ Shaya I find it easy to use Tink and Link's Spin Attacks to punish Sheik's F-Air on shield. They cover around them and if timed and spaced correctly, Link would hit Sheik in mid-air for the punish, should he not go for the grab, and regardless of frame data, Tink or Link will get Sheik (though Link has a better chance due to being taller).

But anyways, everyone, I think Ganondorf's Flame Chain needs a lot more love and respect than you'd think. Despite its shortcomings in terms of its end lag, it's boasting a supreme combination of widely disjointed hitboxes, decent knockback that leads into edge-guarding, not going off the stage (like the other two) and hitting multiple times in rapid succession. This makes it hard to go against Ganondorf and contest him with anything aside from a disjoint or projectile, and it makes it impossible to punish Ganondorf on shield until the move finishes; again, the rapid succession of hits come about every 1 to 2 frames and it has incredible reach, so on shield, it will be impossible until the move ends. Flame Chain is probably Ganondorf's best Side B out of all of them due to its sheer amount of safety with the attack and follow ups to potential edge-guarding. And I personally believe it would be great for stage spikes, TBH.

And while on the topic of Ganondorf's customs, his Warlock Thrust has the high end lag, too, but it's actually meant to be used in air, not the ground. The attack does come out incredibly fast, and as we all know, when the Warlock attacks get reversed or end, Ganondorf freely moves around. So if Ganondorf uses Thrust in the air, he can garner space between him and his opponent. The attack also has optimal range and still-decent attack power. I think I should try exploring the possibilities of Thrust to see how its full potential works. Anyone want to join a game later? (I'm trying to figure out more potential for his more unused customs)

 

[Ikes]

I wish zelda wasnt unplayable garbage, shes cute and I wanna play her B)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Perhaps this has been discussed already, I don't know, but can we talk about how a Roy at 102% (bit of rage) can spike and kill someone (or Captain Falcon at least) at 0%. I don't know if it's possible before rage effect kicks in, perhaps it is, but being able to use your swords length to go through the edges of the stage and gimp someone as they try to recover seems very useful for any Roy users.

 

[Nu~]

M2K should just pick up Pac-Man already.
We only have two top players. One of which won't attend any custom tournaments.

 

[Teshie U]

Watching Fox deal with people sitting in shield makes me wonder how good the character is. Pretty much guarantees people will max out on rage vs him.

 

[Nysyr]

Wonder if after CEO people are going to stop calling Lucario's recovery godlike after the number of dunks. Slow startup, high end lag, extremely situational hitbox and predictable.

Must say it is highly upsetting to see someone rep'ing your main only to see the character invalidated by top tiers like ZSS. Gives me a general lack of interest to keep playing without future balance patches. I'm already used to being a literal punching bag in the neutral, but when a character can take you to the blast zones (and not on a tiny stage either) before 60%, why bother.

Apart from the SD, Kami was playing far more optimally for the character than Nick Riddle was, and had to work far harder for less reward. ZSS had to commit to nothing in neutral and just got free damage so easily. Nick was playing extremely lazy and still got away with murder basically.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wonder if after CEO people are going to stop calling Lucario's recovery godlike after the number of dunks. Slow startup, high end lag, extremely situational hitbox and predictable.

Must say it is highly upsetting to see someone rep'ing your main only to see the character invalidated by top tiers like ZSS. Gives me a general lack of interest to keep playing without future balance patches. I'm already used to being a literal punching bag in the neutral, but when a character can take you to the blast zones (and not on a tiny stage either) before 60%, why bother.

Apart from the SD, Kami was playing far more optimally for the character than Nick Riddle was, and had to work far harder for less reward. ZSS had to commit to nothing in neutral and just got free damage so easily. Nick was playing extremely lazy and still got away with murder basically.

See bold

Maybe ******** about how awful Dedede is will change something about my character and how he's played.

Maybe.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Baby_Sneak]

See bold

Maybe ******** about how awful Dedede is will change something about my character and how he's played.

Maybe.

Smooth Criminal

I don't think replying with rudeness is in order. A simple "git gud/betar" is better.
EDIT: I didn't see your edit quick enough. Sorry. But i still think my alternate is better.

 

[Nysyr]

I implore you to continue to try and continue to develop your characters meta.

We just both know the characters won't ever see a top 8 at a major.

Kami placed well, but do you think he would have even made it out of pools if NAKAT even knew how to play the matchup at all? Is literal lack of matchup knowledge the only way a character will preform well? Once players learn the matchups, will we ever see a more diverse top 8 than we did now?



Or I guess we can just rely on customs to "diversify" the meta.

 

[Ffamran]

Keitaro ripped on Nakat on his stream saying that Nakat is lagging behind everyone. Kind of showed at CEO and that one tournament in Canada. He's a strong player out of practice and getting outplayed by people he should clearly beat. He's also stretching himself thin with 5 characters under his belt: Fox, Ness, Pikachu, sometimes Captain Falcon, and recently, Lucas.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I implore you to continue to try and continue to develop your characters meta.

We just both know the characters won't ever see a top 8 at a major.

Kami placed well, but do you think he would have even made it out of pools if NAKAT even knew how to play the matchup at all? Is literal lack of matchup knowledge the only way a character will preform well? Once players learn the matchups, will we ever see a more diverse top 8 than we did now?



Or I guess we can just rely on customs to "diversify" the meta.

Question is, how are they going to know the match-up when there will be so few players playing that character?

We just discussed how Samus can counter Luigi.

Or the fact that lucario could be a weird match up for sheik

Or the fact that the way smooth criminal constantly leaves space like this is addictive to copy

Idk

Maybe. It's pretty fun :3

 

[Speed Boost]

Keitaro ripped on Nakat on his stream saying that Nakat is lagging behind everyone. Kind of showed at CEO and that one tournament in Canada. He's a strong player out of practice and getting outplayed by people he should clearly beat. He's also stretching himself thin with 5 characters under his belt: Fox, Ness, Pikachu, sometimes Captain Falcon, and recently, Lucas.

Yeah, if Nakat needed a wake up call to motivate him to get back in the lab with Ness and Fox, then he got it. However, it is also possible that he hit a wall and it could take some time for his interest to come around again.

It does seem that his "slump" had coincided with Nairos dominance over the last few months. Having the Tri-State crown taken from him by his boy could have shaken his confidence.

I could also be full of ****, which is probably more likely. I'll stop playing armchair psychologist and see what yall think is going on.

 

[Jams.]

Watching Fox deal with people sitting in shield makes me wonder how good the character is. Pretty much guarantees people will max out on rage vs him.

Fox can just grab you to put you in a bad position where he can set up an airdodge or landing trap. His throws don't lead to anything, but he can still capitalize on the positional advantage. Otherwise, he can wait for your shield to get low, then shieldpoke with dair (and maybe nair?) into usmash. If he has the lead, he can also opt to play the waiting game and force you to make commitments in neutral, which he can then punish. I didn't see anyone max out on rage versus Larry's Fox this weekend.

 

[migul]

Yeah, if Nakat needed a wake up call to motivate him to get back in the lab with Ness and Fox, then he got it. However, it is also possible that he hit a wall and it could take some time for his interest to come around again.

It does seem that his "slump" had coincided with Nairos dominance over the last few months. Having the Tri-State crown taken from him by his boy could have shaken his confidence.

I could also be full of ****, which is probably more likely. I'll stop playing armchair psychologist and see what yall think is going on.

Doesn't seem that far fetched tbh, it does seem like Nakat's performance slowly went into the dumps when Nairo became the best in NJ.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't want to rag on Nakat anymore and this will be the last thing about Nakat and such as it's not on-topic, but the stream done last night - it's past midnight where I live - is probably archived and Keitaro does go on a rant about it for maybe 10 minutes at most. Keitaro's at fault too and his performance wasn't as stellar when he visited the Midwest and participated in Dismantle. Dabuz was the only threat there along with False, but Keitaro didn't do so hot. Hell, Mew2King taking second in last night's tournament in Texas? isn't something you'd expect from a notable player. Funny enough, all three don't really have a main right now and if they do, they're jumping around. Nakat was known for his Fox and Ness, but he's been hopping around with Lucas and Captain Falcon and picked up Pikachu when ESAM said he was retiring a while back, Keitaro's been using Diddy, Mii Brawler, Link, and Falco, and M2K is bouncing from Rosalina, Mario, and Captain Falcon.

It happens and for the first time, an official Smash game is getting patches meaning you cannot stay secure with a character regardless of their "viability". One day, you'll be maining Bowser and he gets a nerf hammer for no reason. You'll complain about how it's unjustified, but you can't do anything. That possibility could be scaring people and the fact Diddy got nerfed or has been the main target of nerfs has lead some players scrambling to find a "good' character. Tyrant used to play Diddy, but switched to Meta Knight and some people have called him out for it, Angel picked up Meta Knight, Acid overreacted to Captain Falcon's Uair nerf and almost dropped him for Roy, and people play Falco thinking his buffs having a significant, significant impact to his gameplay and being misinformed by him having a windbox on Nair, Uair is just as good as ZSS's, or B-throw getting buffed? Really? Nair, Uair, Fair, and even Dair are just safer and more reliable options now with Uair being a better combo tool. Falco didn't magically jump to high tier and his Fair isn't something you throw out randomly despite the shorter landing lag.

Street Fighter, Blazblue, etc. players are probably laughing their ***** off. First for everything, right? They probably freaked out too, but those games have more editions or releases compared to Smash.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

At the very least, these patches are doing a slightly better job than project M at balancing the game.

 

[Smog Frog]

seems to be the character to main atm. he's a solid character that looks to have no nerfs coming to him. ditto to and .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sonic- such a greatly misunderstood character. Mistaken for cancer by other players because sonic's representatives exploit the badside of sonic true character. I have seen it in training mode myself. Truely a character that demands practice and lab time with all the cancels he can perform to the point of 50/50s inside 50/50s. I too was a sonic hater until I started messing around with him in training mode and what a great mistake I was making! I feel so ashamed of the sonics that were at CEO for not exploring the character enough and seeing the beauty behind the beast. I encourage you all to take the time to play this beautiful animal and be enlightened about the real sonic, so el patcho samurai doesn't endanger the hedgehog species
Thank you

 

[Nobie]

I wonder if patches actually encourage people to stick with their characters. They might not be so hot right now, but in 6 months to a year, who knows? Might be better to just learn your character inside and out and then adjust to the small changes that come, rather than having to learn an entirely new character each time. Or at least, learn a "high tier" and a "low tier' in case those positions flip.

 

[Speed Boost]

Anyone care to discuss the Sheik v Pit MU. The reason I bring it up is because I wanted to see Nairo try it in Winners Finals after he was down 1-2. He has a pretty good track record with the Pits against Sheik and Diddy.

Pits grab is far less punishable than ZSS and Nario is a monster at using the Pits grab game in nuetral. If you go in the Archives of Zero's YT channel you can find a first to 5 between Nario and Zero with this MU. Nario actually wins the first 3 games before going 1-5 in the last six games.

http://youtu.be/di4bA92n-F0

I'm almost positive Nario wanted to stay with ZSS because he can take a stock at any point, at any %. The ZSS v Sheik MU seems to be comfortably in Sheiks favor and Nario has admitted to this many times in the past.

Zero could not have just stayed in shield against Pit, but Nario would have had to consistently beaten Zero in the nuetral game to win with Pit. I think if he was gonna take 6 games he needed to approach the MU looking to outplay Zero in the nuetral with Pit instead of trying to steal games with ZSS.

Do any of you think Pit or a combination of Pit and ZSS would have been a better option?

 

[Ikes]

I wonder if patches actually encourage people to stick with their characters. They might not be so hot right now, but in 6 months to a year, who knows? Might be better to just learn your character inside and out and then adjust to the small changes that come, rather than having to learn an entirely new character each time. Or at least, learn a "high tier" and a "low tier' in case those positions flip.

Why do you think I have Pikachu and Donkey Kong?

At least if Pikachu gets nerfed i have a DK to fall back on (and he's got no foreseeable nerfs coming to him due to him being pretty much overall balanced) But I'm not just gonna drop Pikachu

Pikachu's someone I played since the moment I got the game.

I also play Roy though, mostly as a counterpick/backup character
(I also have a little mac under my belt but he's mostly for friendlies or use as a trump card, so not a main)

Honestly I think it's a really good idea to practice a high tier and a low/mid tier. If you're playing Luigi, Try picking up Dr. Mario or Toon Link. You play Zero Suit? Pick up Samus or Wii Fit Trainer or something. You play Diddy Kong? Well you're probably safe from the nerf hammer for now.

Honestly if more people did this, not only would they have a strong backup strategy but they would also in turn be helping expand the meta for most untapped characters. We need more Charizards, you know.

Play a low/mid tier today!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't want to rag on Nakat anymore and this will be the last thing about Nakat and such as it's not on-topic, but the stream done last night - it's past midnight where I live - is probably archived and Keitaro does go on a rant about it for maybe 10 minutes at most. Keitaro's at fault too and his performance wasn't as stellar when he visited the Midwest and participated in Dismantle. Dabuz was the only threat there along with False, but Keitaro didn't do so hot. Hell, Mew2King taking second in last night's tournament in Texas? isn't something you'd expect from a notable player. Funny enough, all three don't really have a main right now and if they do, they're jumping around. Nakat was known for his Fox and Ness, but he's been hopping around with Lucas and Captain Falcon and picked up Pikachu when ESAM said he was retiring a while back, Keitaro's been using Diddy, Mii Brawler, Link, and Falco, and M2K is bouncing from Rosalina, Mario, and Captain Falcon.

It happens and for the first time, an official Smash game is getting patches meaning you cannot stay secure with a character regardless of their "viability". One day, you'll be maining Bowser and he gets a nerf hammer for no reason. You'll complain about how it's unjustified, but you can't do anything. That possibility could be scaring people and the fact Diddy got nerfed or has been the main target of nerfs has lead some players scrambling to find a "good' character. Tyrant used to play Diddy, but switched to Meta Knight and some people have called him out for it, Angel picked up Meta Knight, Acid overreacted to Captain Falcon's Uair nerf and almost dropped him for Roy, and people play Falco thinking his buffs having a significant, significant impact to his gameplay and being misinformed by him having a windbox on Nair, Uair is just as good as ZSS's, or B-throw getting buffed? Really? Nair, Uair, Fair, and even Dair are just safer and more reliable options now with Uair being a better combo tool. Falco didn't magically jump to high tier and his Fair isn't something you throw out randomly despite the shorter landing lag.

Street Fighter, Blazblue, etc. players are probably laughing their ***** off. First for everything, right? They probably freaked out too, but those games have more editions or releases compared to Smash.

Most players will adjust to patches or develop a new main. It's really not a big deal it's just a matter of putting in work. I think patches effect lower level players more than top players.

The thing with a character like falco getting the buffs je had it's pretty eye opening. He has pretty good frame data already and good damage on his normals. He also has a pretty good combo game.

Pretty sure tyrant made the switch to mk a while ago.

 

[A_Kae]

I wonder if patches actually encourage people to stick with their characters. They might not be so hot right now, but in 6 months to a year, who knows? Might be better to just learn your character inside and out and then adjust to the small changes that come, rather than having to learn an entirely new character each time. Or at least, learn a "high tier" and a "low tier' in case those positions flip.

Patches were a big part of why I decided to stick with Marth. He was bad before, and I wouldn't fault any transitioning brawl Marth's for switching.

I would really recommend people to pick up a bad or low tier character that they like, but just feel aren't good enough for serious competitive play. Not as a main, though. Just as a character they know, and use from time to time in friendly matches.

On the other side of things, do patches encourage top-tier mains to switch?

 

[Zorai]

Kami placed well, but do you think he would have even made it out of pools if NAKAT even knew how to play the matchup at all? Is literal lack of matchup knowledge the only way a character will preform well? Once players learn the matchups, will we ever see a more diverse top 8 than we did now?

Sorry, but that is extremely ignorant. Are you really saying the only reason Nakat lost was 'not knowing the matchup'? Way to discredit an up-and-coming player. That type of thinking is reallyyy toxic.

Of course Kami would have made it out of pools because guess what, he beat falln right after (who also beat Nakat btw) and then took out Poltergust in the pro bracket. He had a very great placing considering it was his first national, and he deserved every bit of it.

Getting pretty tired of people making johns/excuses for players they perceive to be unshakable. Then again, I'm fine with people continuing to think success is out of reach for them. After all, there has to be an audience willing to subscribe to the Onett Boys.

 

[Luco]

In regards to Ness' buffs/nerfs:

Spoiler

Ness' only nerf to date was a 2% reduction on Dthrow, otherwise he's only received buffs (mostly aesthetic changes like Dthrow shaking the screen or Fsmash having the 'Crack!' sound when it reflects projectiles <3 ) like the magnet end lag one or no changes at all.

It's clear to me they want him to be a good character in this game (which makes me so happy ). Maybe they want Rosaluma to be a top tier too as 'the go-to Ness counter', although Sonic is arguably worse.

Something to be considered here though is that most of the top tiers more or less stayed where they were and didn't really get many nerfs if at all. Unlike every patch previously, the winners of the last patch weren't the characters who struggle with abusive traits from the top tiers getting their worst MUs toned down, it was the characters that actually got buffed - FE crew, Meta Knight, Charizard (Trela made it to top 25 at CEO didn't he?) etc. I wonder if this marks some kind of paradigm change from the devs - perhaps they consider this top tier to be just about right and its more about buffing the lower tiers one at a time.

Well, it's too soon to say for sure, but it's an interesting thought. This isn't to say that no top tier should be nerfed from now on and all the low tiers should just get buffed of course.

 

[Ffamran]

Meta Knight was strong even before the patch. It just took someone who actually knew how to play the character to do something. Better jab and Ftilt were just icing on the blue, puffy cake. Even Ike was argued to be good, but now, he's even better.

 

[Nysyr]

Sorry, but that is extremely ignorant. Are you really saying the only reason Nakat lost was 'not knowing the matchup'? Way to discredit an up-and-coming player. That type of thinking is reallyyy toxic.

Of course Kami would have made it out of pools because guess what, he beat falln right after (who also beat Nakat btw) and then took out Poltergust in the pro bracket. He had a very great placing considering it was his first national, and he deserved every bit of it.

Getting pretty tired of people making johns/excuses for players they perceive to be unshakable. Then again, I'm fine with people continuing to think success is out of reach for them. After all, there has to be an audience willing to subscribe to the Onett Boys.

Were talking about literal character counter here dude. Also you willingly ignored where I said that Kami was playing better than his opponents. See the Day MM if you want to see how ness can run away with the match. Bthrow basically invalidates aura.

Falln was also generally playing terrible against Kami as well, with complete disregard for Lucario's Bair, while respecting Lucario's ground game far more than anyone ever should. Again, if he had actually practiced against a Lucario, he wouldn't have gotten hit by a move that's slower than knee and isn't comboed into by anything, nor do you need to respect any of Lucario's other aerials when he's facing the wrong way. There is no air dodge traps here.

 

[Luco]

Also @ Ffamran whilst I somewhat agree, Halberd's low ceiling isn't what bothers me at all. It's the argument that 'hurr durr the stage hazards aren't an actual problem'. Well the sorry fact is they are. Larry got hit by the claw straight into a Rosa Uair iirc, and earlier in that match a Luma got laser beamed to death. Not only is there the hazards themselves, but just the threat of the hazard forces people into uncomfortable positions, often close range ones where they don't really want to be approaching because the laser is targeted on center stage and they were trying to multi-task where the laser was and their enemy and got it wrong.

Alternatively, if you're worrying about the claw then you HAVE to dodge it at a certain time, which can be predicted and punished. The biggest issue I have with the stage is that the hazards, whilst not individually threatening, force players to multi-task not getting hit by the hazard AND the enemy, and the worst part is 2 of the 3 hazards target one player at a time, which means the other player can take advantage of the first player in this multi-tasking state that they shouldn't have had to be in in the first place.

I dunno, I just have issues with the stage's hazards, other than that I think it's fine. Low ceilings don't bother me at all.

Sorry, this really should be in the stage thread, but I thought it was relevant to the comment I made earlier and your response.

 

[Zorai]

Were talking about literal character counter here dude. Also you willingly ignored where I said that Kami was playing better than his opponents. See the Day MM if you want to see how ness can run away with the match. Bthrow basically invalidates aura.

Falln was also generally playing terrible against Kami as well, with complete disregard for Lucario's Bair, while respecting Lucario's ground game far more than anyone ever should. Again, if he had actually practiced against a Lucario, he wouldn't have gotten hit by a move that's slower than knee and isn't comboed into by anything, nor do you need to respect any of Lucario's other aerials when he's facing the wrong way. There is no air dodge traps here.

Day =/= Kami
Lucario =/= bad

Rest of your posts appears to consist of baseless johns.

I've said all that needs to be said in my last post.

 

[shadowmm151]

Meta Knight was strong even before the patch. It just took someone who actually knew how to play the character to do something. Better jab and Ftilt were just icing on the blue, puffy cake. Even Ike was argued go be good, but now, he's even better.

Yup, completely agree. Remember, when Smash 4 came out, EVERYONE was sour because was nerfed. People were talking about him being the WORST character in the game. (LOL, eventhubs still has him in bottom 5ish.)

Now that the game's been out for awhile and we've had time to a) get over that issue and b) explore the character, we see that is actually a top 15 contender in this game. He's a lot like his Brawl iteration, BUT WITHOUT the easy mode. requires a LOT of work. He's incredibly weak in terms of damage and none of his moves are broken like in Brawl. This means he has to actually be explored instead of just exploited like Smash 4's Day 1 .

Yeah, I agree that was a solid character before 1.0.8, but now he's so even better; I'd say top 20 (which is great considering how close a lot of characters are in this game).

CEO:
As for , I still think he's great, but not top tier anymore. I put him in top 15. Now I'm sure some of you might point out how he did well in CEO, but look at WHO was playing ...really good players. Did you think these good players would suddenly become bad? Plus, it wasn't like they were gonna suddenly swap their mains...they're familiar with , so why drop someone you're used to? is still viable, but I think a) there was a clear drop off in usage (this is also due to the 1.0.6 patch, however) b) against better opponents, mains tended to swap mains (ex. ZeRo in top 8 going & MVD going vs. Dabuz) c) 's were still using old combos that just weren't working like before making me feel that there were better options.

Also, I'd like to address the earlier comments about . Just because some great mains got beat in top 32 DOESN'T mean isn't still EASILY the BEST character in this game. It just means the people who beat them a) are just as good if not better and b) KNEW the MUs.

Well that's my two bits.

 

[Speed Boost]

Yup, completely agree. Remember, when Smash 4 came out, EVERYONE was sour because was nerfed. People were talking about him being the WORST character in the game. (LOL, eventhubs still has him in bottom 5ish.)

Now that the game's been out for awhile and we've had time to a) get over that issue and b) explore the character, we see that is actually a top 15 contender in this game. He's a lot like his Brawl iteration, BUT WITHOUT the easy mode. requires a LOT of work. He's incredibly weak in terms of damage and none of his moves are broken like in Brawl. This means he has to actually be explored instead of just exploited like Smash 4's Day 1 .

Yeah, I agree that was a solid character before 1.0.8, but now he's so even better; I'd say top 20 (which is great considering how close a lot of characters are in this game).

CEO:
As for , I still think he's great, but not top tier anymore. I put him in top 15. Now I'm sure some of you might point out how he did well in CEO, but look at WHO was playing ...really good players. Did you think these good players would suddenly become bad? Plus, it wasn't like they were gonna suddenly swap their mains...they're familiar with , so why drop someone you're used to? is still viable, but I think a) there was a clear drop off in usage (this is also due to the 1.0.6 patch, however) b) against better opponents, mains tended to swap mains (ex. ZeRo in top 8 going & MVD going vs. Dabuz) c) 's were still using old combos that just weren't working like before making me feel that there were better options.

Also, I'd like to address the earlier comments about . Just because some great mains got beat in top 32 DOESN'T mean isn't still EASILY the BEST character in this game. It just means the people who beat them a) are just as good if not better and b) KNEW the MUs.

Well that's my two bits.

First of all, MVD played Nairo with Diddy Kong. He switch against Dabuzz specifically for the Rosalina MU, not because Dabuz was better than Nario. Zero is the only player that obviously swapped to Sheik in the top 8. It may have been 100% MU reasons why he chose Sheik v Pikachu and ZSS.

Diddy Kong still has great options and MVD showed that up throw-up air is still a kill option with a fresh up air above 120ish %. He still has a Banana, amazing aerials, MKF, and a proper grab game. He is still top tier, no worse than a top 8(No order) character because of his options in the nuetral game alone.

There is no doubt that Sheik is now in th conversation for best character, but Diddy isn't going anywhere without another nerf. He was just that good to start with.

 

[Pazx]

I would have liked to see Zero's Diddy against Nairo and MVD's against Dabuz as I think we'd have a far better understanding of this characters capabilities and matchups if that were the case.. As it stands, to me he seems like a solid pick for a high tier character (around Brawl Pikachu level) but his matchups with characters of similar or better viability probably hurt him (comparison to Brawl Pikachu not withstanding). He will probably always do decently well against ZSS and Falcon but he has to work a lot harder for less reward in every single one of his matchups.

Also @ Ffamran whilst I somewhat agree, Halberd's low ceiling isn't what bothers me at all. It's the argument that 'hurr durr the stage hazards aren't an actual problem'. Well the sorry fact is they are. Larry got hit by the claw straight into a Rosa Uair iirc, and earlier in that match a Luma got laser beamed to death. Not only is there the hazards themselves, but just the threat of the hazard forces people into uncomfortable positions, often close range ones where they don't really want to be approaching because the laser is targeted on center stage and they were trying to multi-task where the laser was and their enemy and got it wrong.

Alternatively, if you're worrying about the claw then you HAVE to dodge it at a certain time, which can be predicted and punished. The biggest issue I have with the stage is that the hazards, whilst not individually threatening, force players to multi-task not getting hit by the hazard AND the enemy, and the worst part is 2 of the 3 hazards target one player at a time, which means the other player can take advantage of the first player in this multi-tasking state that they shouldn't have had to be in in the first place.

I dunno, I just have issues with the stage's hazards, other than that I think it's fine. Low ceilings don't bother me at all.

Sorry, this really should be in the stage thread, but I thought it was relevant to the comment I made earlier and your response.

I cringed when Larry got hit by the claw. Dabuz backed off and the match pace slowed down and it seemed like both players were ready for it but then he empty hops into nothing and gets hit by it. Dabuz wasn't in a position where he could punish a shield or dodge easily either so I have very little sympathy. The incredibly low ceiling is arguably more uncompetitive than the hazards will ever but either way if I were you I'd hesitate to present my opinion as fact. The stage would undoubtedly be better for competition with the removal of any number of it's hazards but that's not something we can do.