Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Wow! So does D3's uair! This'll change the MU for sure.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TriTails]

It looks really bad for Luigi. Too much stuff for him to get through. He has tools for individual aspects, but those aspects come in too rapidly.

So a Luigi, losing to a Samus, a character barely known in competitive plays, which is played by a player that is really gud, suddenly make Luigi go 30:70 against Samus?

I need to watch this match.

 

[deepseadiva]

Nairo reading comments like "don't miss grabs!!!"

 

[FlynnCL]

Suppose it'd be relevant to quote this ESAM post here too;

Luigi excels in the boxing game and Pikachu kinda needs to box to get any of his strings and pressure. Luigi just does it better, but he doesn't have the general approach tools Pikachu has which is why OVERALL he is a worse character. Samus can kinda shut Luigi out and punish his recovery, so it seems like a pretty decent MU in theory.

I'm curious about Luigi's match-up theory against zoners. Samus is usually considered a mediocre fighter but it doesn't mean she can't wall out those with poor mobility. It was a very smart pick, especially since Larry probably didn't know about the match-up.

Shame ESAM couldn't continue using her, but Larry's Fox was hungry for some Varia Suit at that point.

 

[hypersonicJD]

And i'm so dissapointed by almost every Sonic Performance. Almost every single Sonic uses Spin Dash to the death. That's why they lose so badly. Because they don't know the character perfectly. Or haven't tried developing him at his fullest. I don't want to sound like a complete douchebag mister perfect or anything. But I seriously don't need to use the Spin Dash so much. I mostly use Fair in the moment I'm jumping. That way I cancel out the lag of the move, the same with back air.

And also, I have seen from Cyberman65 or something like that. He uses the spring on the ground, and then he Dair's into it. That way he can use the Spin Dash and still has a second jump. There is some interesting meta for Sonic but no one bothers to try it. They just keep Spin Dashing to the death. And that disgusts me.

And I haven't even entered a real life tournament. I just want the Sonic strategy to be more aggressive and just not more: Spin Dash to win. Because it isn't safe at all and they are going to kill Sonic's Meta Game.

 

[Speed Boost]

I really wish Nairo would have tried Pit game 4 of Winners Finals to at least see how Zero would approach to matchup. I have seen him take multiple friendlies in a row against Zero's Sheik with Pit. He has also beaten other high level Sheiks with him(False and Kietono).

It was at least worth a try to have the knowledge for a potential rematch in GF.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What else was he going to do though?

If you paid close attention to the way ZeRo played vs. Nairo and vs. ESAM, you should have noticed just how much more shield ZeRo used when fighting Nairo. He dashed into a shield right next to ZSS many, many times, and shielded so many attacks that his shield almost broke several times. But he kept shielding even then.

ZeRo basically said to Nairo, "Here is my shield, what are you going to do about it?" In response, Nairo had no choice but to grab more than a few times to break ZeRo out of that pattern and get hits. At the beginning of Grand Finals, we saw ZeRo drop a game (and half of the following game) where he got grabbed many, many times because he was spotdodging and rolling more often, and then he adapted in the following matches and went back to his shielding pattern in order to win the set.

That 16-frame grab with tons of endlag is not a consistent option, despite its high reward, and ZeRo abused that weakness (as he should have). ZSS is probably overtuned relative to the rest of the cast on most of her moves, range/damagewise, but that grab may just keep her in check.

I can only think of a few things he could had done. One is to hesitate for a tenth of a second and then grab to trip up the pattern i think. another thing is to flip jump on ZeRo's shield to condition him to try to punish and work off that. Maybe use Nair to pressure the shield and make ZeRo scared to use it again.

 

[Firefoxx]

Suppose it'd be relevant to quote this ESAM post here too;

I'm curious about Luigi's match-up theory against zoners. Samus is usually considered a mediocre fighter but it doesn't mean she can't wall out those with poor mobility. It was a very smart pick, especially since Larry probably didn't know about the match-up.

Shame ESAM couldn't continue using her, but Larry's Fox was hungry for some Varia Suit at that point.

We've seen Mii Gunner's do very well against really good Luigi's. It's more than just theory.

 

[DanGR]

I think Nairo's use of grabs were fine, good even. He wasn't randomly throwing them out around low percents for Sheik combo food. It was usually at mid/high percents where the conversion off a Sheik grab (fastest way to punish missed attempts with moderate reward) wouldn't net Sheik much. On the other hand, if Nairo landed the grab he gained a ton every time. It's also necessary to use them at least sometimes to prevent Zero from sitting in his shield the whole match.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

And i'm so dissapointed by almost every Sonic Performance. Almost every single Sonic uses Spin Dash to the death. That's why they lose so badly. Because they don't know the character perfectly. Or haven't tried developing him at his fullest. I don't want to sound like a complete douchebag mister perfect or anything. But I seriously don't need to use the Spin Dash so much. I mostly use Fair in the moment I'm jumping. That way I cancel out the lag of the move, the same with back air.

And also, I have seen from Cyberman65 or something like that. He uses the spring on the ground, and then he Dair's into it. That way he can use the Spin Dash and still has a second jump. There is some interesting meta for Sonic but no one bothers to try it. They just keep Spin Dashing to the death. And that disgusts me.

And I haven't even entered a real life tournament. I just want the Sonic strategy to be more aggressive and just not more: Spin Dash to win. Because it isn't safe at all and they are going to kill Sonic's Meta Game.

Cyberman65 still plays Sm4sh?

------------------------
Also, Luigi struggles versus Samus because he doesn't have a cape to protect himself. Bombs missiles and charge shots all can force him to shield allowing Samus to go in, grab him, and combo him. Luigi's offstage at mid-high%? Bait an air dodge or side B and Charge Shot his face cause he has a pretty bad recovery. Or if you're feeling fancy meteor him.
Luigi can land some good hits on Samus, but lack of a reflector plus poor mobility put him in a bad spot.

Moral of this story: pick Mario. He wrecks Samus. Link and Falco are also good too

 

[Balgorxz]

So please tell me after that slaughterhouse display that no one still thinks Sheik is not the best character in the game.

zero bodying people does not count as sheik bodying people, the same applies with diddy.
if Mr R and Vinnie were in top8 I think that might be a good call, but they weren't.
sheik has flaws

 

[san.]

zero bodying people does not count as sheik bodying people, the same applies with diddy.
if Mr R and Vinnie were in top8 I think that might be a good call, but they weren't.
sheik has flaws

Dangerous logic, since you can apply this to any great player you want.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Yeah. He still plays and he even said that he's going to EVO.

 

[Pyr]

Also, Luigi struggles versus Samus because he doesn't have a cape to protect himself. Bombs missiles and charge shots all can force him to shield allowing Samus to go in, grab him, and combo him. Luigi's offstage at mid-high%? Bait an air dodge or side B and Charge Shot his face cause he has a pretty bad recovery. Or if you're feeling fancy meteor him.
Luigi can land some good hits on Samus, but lack of a reflector plus poor mobility put him in a bad spot.

Moral of this story: pick Mario. He wrecks Samus.

Charge Shot on raw block pushes Luigi way too far to get anything on him for it. Same with power missile. Homing missile is so slow that you can powershield it without issue. Also, any Luigi who get's baited into taking a Charge shot off stage deserves to lose. The only reason Samus is even an issue is because of her general range, the required respect of her options, ZAir, and her fast startup on most of her kit. Other then that, she is manageable if the Luigi is patient and has a general idea of how to play the matchup. The only gtfo move she has once Luigi is in is Up-B, and she lacks the mobility to take advantage of Luigi's poor mobility like some of the other major players can.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

zero bodying people does not count as sheik bodying people, the same applies with diddy.
if Mr R and Vinnie were in top8 I think that might be a good call, but they weren't.
sheik has flaws

Um, yeah like those combo videos.
I agree with @ san. This is dangerous logic.

 

[thehard]

Ya you guys are probably right, I'm looking too much at the end result rather than the decision re: Nairo grabs

 

[Speed Boost]

Dangerous logic, since you can apply this to any great player you want.

I actually agree that keeping Zero out the discussion will give a more accurate portrayal of how characters fair agains lt each other. I say this because the top players right underneath Zero are much closer in skill level and thus provide a more accurate representation.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nairo reading comments like "don't miss grabs!!!"

"Oh, thaaaat's what I've been doing wrong. I should have been landing grabs instead of missing them. Thanks everybody!"

I actually agree that keeping Zero out the discussion will give a more accurate portrayal of how characters fair agains lt each other. I say this because the top players right underneath Zero are much closer in skill level and thus provide a more accurate representation.

This is not entirely unreasonable.

 

[Pyr]

I actually agree that keeping Zero out the discussion will give a more accurate portrayal of how characters fair agains lt each other. I say this because the top players right underneath Zero are much closer in skill level and thus provide a more accurate representation.

I dislike this logic. If a top player is doing something with someone and it's working, the exact opposite we should do is disregard it. If we look at it as "what is the optimal playstyle/gameplan that can be used in x vs y for both x and y," there is really no reason to disregard one of the few players capable of putting that theory into practice. We'd be handicapping our analysis by doing so.

 

[hypersonicJD]

And also, Samus doesn't need to be camping at all. I actually used her way back when I was starting in Smash 3DS. And her Dash Attack has some great follow-ups. Dash Attack, into Up Air, into Fair.

 

[Speed Boost]

I dislike this logic. If a top player is doing something with someone and it's working, the exact opposite we should do is disregard it. If we look at it as "what is the optimal playstyle/gameplan that can be used in x vs y for both x and y," there is really no reason to disregard one of the few players capable of putting that theory into practice. We'd be handicapping our analysis by doing so.

Let me ask you this then. What would you say about the tier impact of Zero beating me with Sheik?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Besides if I came in at a regional/national tourney, made top 8 with Link, beat some of the top players there and placed 4th, would you say "pft those players threw the match away that link main doesn't deserve that spot?"
The fact stands: a Sheik placed first a national tourney. ZSS nearly beat her. Samus 2-stocked a Luigi.
How the heck did they do that?
And thus, we discuss. That's the point right? To go forwards and not backwards or still-standing?

 

[Pyr]

Let me ask you this then. What would you say if about the tier impact of Zero beating me with Sheik?

None. Matchup analysis isn't about tier impact. I'm saying that ignoring a wealth of information in matchup analysis because one player is better is the wrong thing to do. If anything, it lets us see what the optimal play is when 2 characters, who are against each other, are in specific situations. It lets us see what options the characters have in the situations. There isn't a good reason to ignore it.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Cyberman65 still plays Sm4sh?

We played MK dittos just a few weeks ago lol

Unless you mean at a tournament, idk then. I think he's going to EVO though.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

We played MK dittos just a few weeks ago lol

Unless you mean at a tournament, idk then.

Well, I have his 3ds FC, but he doesn't seem to be very active on Twitch or YouTube. I don't think he has a SmashBoards account.
Can you tell him that Powerstar9 says hi and Add me, pls?
Edit: if I see him on EVO stream I'm gonna watch his match no matter how bad or how awesome it is.

 

[Speed Boost]

None. Matchup analysis isn't about tier impact. I'm saying that ignoring a wealth of information in matchup analysis because one player is better is the wrong thing to do. If anything, it lets us see what the optimal play is when 2 characters, who are against each other, are in specific situations. It lets us see what options the characters have in the situations. There isn't a good reason to ignore it.

Well your intial response was to a post talking about tier implications of Zero winning with Sheik so I guess you switched the subject of conversation somewhere.

 

[Ikes]

But the thing is that Zero can actually get beated by a really good Roy. I'm stating this, because I tested something out that is really impressive. Roy's Up Air has more priority than Sheik's Fair. That can actually change the match-up. It's just my opinion though. I really want to see some Roy or Lucas success. And I find Lucas as a High Tier character If anyone wants to argue, feel free.

a skilled roy can beat any sheik.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think a tier list should be viewed by character potential and results. I do love Zero's Analysis on the tier list because most of it is right. Yoshi has an amazing potential but he needs to be more developed and get more results. Kirby with customs is a true beast and almost a counter to Sheik. And he also needs more development.

Also Shulk is one character that make it to top 5 with customs. Mininum to Top 12. I do think that the Smash 4 needs more development with customs. Look at Melee, Pikachu actually went from the bottom tier. To one of the toppest. Luigi also changed the game pretty drasticlly. He is now a high tier character. Hell, even Samus and Ganondorf have changed the game. I think the same can be apllied to Smash 4.

 

[Pyr]

Well your intial response was to a post talking about tier implications of Zero winning with Sheik so I guess you switched the subject of conversation somewhere.

I think I just misunderstood your post. That said, it still can't just be disregarded in terms of "accuracy." At least not with the optimal play format of tier. However, I digress. It's still beneficial because it allows us to start thinking of "how did this work?" and "why did this work?" for the matchup. If it's Zero being Zero, then you have that analysis. But, if it's a character being a character played optimally in the matchup, again, why disregard it because it was one player doing the playing?

 

[Speed Boost]

I think I just misunderstood your post. That said, it still can't just be disregarded in terms of "accuracy." At least not with the optimal play format of tier. However, I digress. It's still beneficial because it allows us to start thinking of "how did this work?" and "why did this work?" for the matchup. If it's Zero being Zero, then you have that analysis. But, if it's a character being a character played optimally in the matchup, again, why disregard it because it was one player doing the playing?

I also think that these questions are important. Did Zero have better options in the Sheik vs ZSS matchup? I would say he proved that, yes. He was also able to develops a game plan with those options and execute it to a level of precision only he can IMO.

That said, we can certainly all learn something from Zero's emaculate game planning and execution. All of us should try to use his strategy in the ZSS matchup, especially Sheik mains.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I think I just misunderstood your post. That said, it still can't just be disregarded in terms of "accuracy." At least not with the optimal play format of tier. However, I digress. It's still beneficial because it allows us to start thinking of "how did this work?" and "why did this work?" for the matchup. If it's Zero being Zero, then you have that analysis. But, if it's a character being a character played optimally in the matchup, again, why disregard it because it was one player doing the playing?

Bizarro Phoenix approves your logic.

 

[Teshie U]

Larry obviously wasn't extremely adjusted to the matchup. The fact that he even tried to fireball when Samus could shoot through it meant he didn't know what to respect yet.

Samus struggles up close, but Luigi struggles getting there. With high platforms to safely Up B to, Luigi has a tough time hitting Samus hard for mixing it in close range. Luigi does not reach high platforms quickly at all so he won't be able to get his best punishes off of Up B.

Samus has the range to actually beat out Luigi where many characters have to worry about rogue nairs or upsmash.

This is part of why its hard to figure out who the worst character is in this game. Even the least viable characters have some matchup they can be useful in.

 

[Ikes]

I'm watching M2K play right now on the Greensleeves stream. He's making a lot of bad decisions it seems. Has M2K always been like this in Sm4sh?

 

[hypersonicJD]

^Nope. He seems to be testing out some characters. Take in count that his main (Diddy Kong) got nerfed pretty badly.

 

[Radical Larry]

Quick Question: Why do you suppose people point the worst character to Samus? Is it because of her horrid nerfing in the game, or the fact that she doesn't play like Brawl or Melee? I think it's because Samus has a very slim combo capability and very bad, DI-able attacks that have low knockback and damage values. A few have great knockback, but they are extremely hard to land.

^Nope. He seems to be testing out some characters. Take in count that his main (Diddy Kong) got nerfed pretty badly.

Maybe M2K should try a different character instead of a "top tier", see how far he can go.I'd like him to play someone like Charizard or Ganondorf, maybe even D3 or Link. But he has to take the coward's way out and play a "top tier". (I mean, is that really what a lot of pros in the Smash games do?)

 

[Spinosaurus]

But he has to take the coward's way out and play a "top tier". (I mean, is that really what a lot of pros in the Smash games do?)

Ugh
There's nothing cowardly about picking a top tier. We're talking money here.

 

[Ikes]

^Nope. He seems to be testing out some characters. Take in count that his main (Diddy Kong) got nerfed pretty badly.

I hadn't known what his main was honestly. I see why he brought out Falcon though. He's more or less the easiest character to get good/results with.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Mew2king now using Rosalina? Hmm... I don't know. It might be a little wacky, but he should main Sonic.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Times like these make me miss 1fow1. I'm just waiting for him to come in and save the Sm4sh meta. I gotta do that Greninja vs Link match against him again cause I want to show him how well I've improved and the potential Link has. Oh well, guess the meta expansion continues on at the smash ladder...

 

[Spinosaurus]

Mew2king now using Rosalina? Hmm... I don't know. It might be a little wacky, but he should main Sonic.

He tried that in the 3D version lol
And he's obviously refusing to use Sheik because of Melee.