Character Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

I take back what I said about Down throw this move has combo potential
this may be because of Roy who has decent weight and fast falling though
jabs f-air 3 turnip up air even the axe connect at different percents sadly axe dosen''t seem to connect at killing percents

 

[Ffamran]

You guys know you can, y'know, use side b to approach along with straight up walking to mix it up. Also, I don't feel like Falco really NEEDS any better mobility (though it would be freaking awesome) when he has like one of the best jabs in the game for stuffing and beating peoples options up close (frame 3? With longer range than most jabs).
Falco is just a super technical character that reaps so much reward with good DMG per hit and kill moves that are fast as heck.

Falco Phantasm doesn't have a hitbox on Falco or doesn't have a hitbox for the last third or quarter of its travel unlike Fox Illusion. This means that Falco can be punished if he mis-spaces Falco Phantasm. Also, even with Fast Fire Bird, Falco is reliant on burst movements for horizontal travel which would get predictable and none of them are particularly powerful like Ganondorf's Dash Attack or Wizard's Foot or as versatile as Diddy's Monkey Flip. Falco can cover vertical distances fast, but his horizontal mobility is among the worst in the game which hurts his disadvantage as he falls fast and moves slowly in the air making juggles that much more painful compared to Fox who has a sex kick Nair to get out or Captain Falcon who is durable.

The damage nerf does lower the knockback but i don't think 1% is enough to downgrade it from killmove status. Honestly i'd take the frame buff over the damage nerf. Speedy aerials are an asset.

Usually, damage changes don't affect knockback, but this patch revamped Falco's Uair. Before the patch, if you hit with the legs, the sweet-spot, it killed Pit at 162% on the ground at center stage of FD on the 3DS. If you hit with the legs now, it kills Pit at 194%. That's a 32% difference. Oh, but it's on the ground, but it does make a difference. The patch basically made his Uair more like Captain Falcon's where you hit is where people get send and in this case, hitting with legs sends people diagonally. If you hit at the center or with Falco's body, they go straight up and that kills at 178%, a 16% difference.

When you say it lost its sourspot, do you mean he does set damage in all locations, or that he simply lost that hitbox? Again, i'd take that 1% nerf gladly over a quality of life change like that.

Before the patch, Falco had two hitboxes on his Uair: his legs and his body. His legs had a lot of knockback and what you wanted to aim for juggles and kills while his body had low knockback which seems crappy, but Falco could use it to cause hit stun and confirm a Bair in the air or something like Down Smash on the ground. The body hitbox used to kill at 872% which didn't really mattered if you used it to confirm a Bair which kills at like 113%. Now, if you consider the center hit as the body hitbox, then it kills 694% earlier. Basically, Falco has a regular flip kick Uair like (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Captain Falcon, ZSS, Kirby, and even Ganondorf. Personally, I would have preferred the old Uair since it killed way earlier and offered a hit confirm option. Also, Falco doesn't have the air mobilty to juggle well like Mario, Captain Falcon, or ZSS or the ability to confirm it consistently like Luigi with his D-throw or whatever Kirby does with his Uair. It could stayed as a wickedly powerful Uair like Ganondorf's.

I can't stress enough how basic and strong Roy's game is. You don't need to always hit with the center of the blade; hitting with the tip is still staying safe and doing damage. The philosophy with Roy is to just throw moves out spaced. If you hit with the tip, you're succeeding in keeping them out. If you hit with the center, they almost got in and are rewarded by dying like they got hit by Ganon (and if they block, Roy's stronger deep hit helps protect you by doing additional blockstun and pushback). If they get uncomfortably close, you have a frame 4 super armor up-B and a general purpose excellent "get off me" jab both of which are big difference points between Roy and every other swordsman.

Didn't Wolf do this, except with just Bair? Bair walls, bro. Hey, Seagull Joe! I found your new main until Wolf comes back!

 

[Firefoxx]

Its pretty hilarious that DED is probably Roy's worst button. (its DB pre-1.06 bad)

 

[Ikes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwzh2sYERxA

Lucas 0-death. anyone wanna test this on other characters?

 

[Ffamran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwzh2sYERxA

Dude, at least add a description to your post instead of randomly posting a link.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Falco Phantasm doesn't have a hitbox on Falco or doesn't have a hitbox for the last third or quarter of its travel unlike Fox Illusion. This means that Falco can be punished if he mis-spaces Falco Phantasm. Also, even with Fast Fire Bird, Falco is reliant on burst movements for horizontal travel which would get predictable and none of them are particularly powerful like Ganondorf's Dash Attack or Wizard's Foot or as versatile as Diddy's Monkey Flip. Falco can cover vertical distances fast, but his horizontal mobility is among the worst in the game which hurts his disadvantage as he falls fast and moves slowly in the air making juggles that much more painful compared to Fox who has a sex kick Nair to get out or Captain Falcon who is durable.

I edited that post dude, wasn't aligned with my thoughts at that moment.

But here's something. Don't use Falco phantasm all the time, walk forward some with power shields (practice those, they're super important), aggro space, do whatever to gain ground. And the thing with disadvantage state, I personally use Falco phantasm in those situations to get off ASAP if they're not too close. Or if they're mad close, I try to Nair, or air dodge fast fall (cuz who falls faster than Falco? Not a soul in this game and if they do, they probably aren't good at aerial juggling). This doesn't take away the difficulty from being on a disadvantaged state however, but it helps. Falco is sooo technical man

 

[HeroMystic]

Also as far as approach goes I agree it's a bit underwhelming but I think it's not as bad as it could be. Ryu does have TWO buttons that cross up shields (Nair and Fair, just like in SF).

Should also be noted that Hadoken shouldn't be looked at as a zoning tool but rather an extended hitbox. It moves slow enough that you can follow it and close distance to your opponent, not unlike Mario's fireball.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Its pretty hilarious that DED is probably Roy's worst button. (its DB pre-1.06 bad)

It's not that bad. Do the sequence neutral 1, neutral 2, up 3, up 4 and it tends to be fairly reliable. I don't think Roy needs to use it a lot, but it's a nice little option to mix in. Most of the other combo variations seem to never connect so I always do this one, but this one seems pretty okay to me.

It might be Roy's worst button anyway, but that's more about how good all of Roy's buttons are and less about anything wrong with his side special. Down smash is really, really unsafe and doesn't even kill as early as fsmash; having a strong read on a roll seems to be about the only reason to use it. I guess it might be the worst button too, but again, it's not even so much bad as the other buttons are good...

 

[Firefoxx]

Also, this is theorycrafting, but a fast character with high damage output and a disjoint seems like they would be pretty good against Luigi.

 

[FullMoon]

Also, this is theorycrafting, but a fast character with high damage output and a disjoint seems like they would be pretty good against Luigi.

So Greninja then?

 

[Firefoxx]

So Greninja then?

:/

 

[Antonykun]

I forgot to mention but thinking about Roy got me to realize that base Swordfighter has possibly the worst overall mobility of all Sword Weilders not named Robin

 

[internetmovieguy]

Diddy's Up Throw was nerfed from 8% -> 5%, Down Throw buffed from 6% -> 7%


Charizard's Up Throw appears to have gotten a significant KB boost. I can KO Mario in the center of FD at 130% in training mode. His Down Throw was nerfed though. It doesn't KO Mario even at 300% lol.

thats a pretty big buff

 

[Ffamran]

But here's something. Don't use Falco phantasm all the time, walk forward some with power shields (practice those, they're super important), aggro space, do whatever to gain ground.

When Falco's run speed is barely faster than his walk speed and his ability to force approaches is bad, Falco approaching is kind of sad compared to Captain Falcon, Roy, Lucina, Sonic, and Fox. Ike at least has air speed to go for spaced Bairs and Fairs, but Falco can't do much, but Ganondorf his way while being much more fragile than Ganondorf.

And the thing with disadvantage state, I personally use Falco phantasm in those situations to get off ASAP if they're not too close. Or if they're mad close, I try to Nair, or air dodge fast fall

Falco Phantasm is a slow move, slower than Dair, meaning Falco has to have distance and be lucky that someone failed to follow up. With characters like Rosalina, customs Palutena, Captain Falcon, Samus, Fox, and Greninja having some type of mobility to catch Falco or really good disjoints, Falco can't do a thing. He's going to get beat up like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Triple D, Bowser, DK, Ike, and Shulk and he's the least durable one and the one with the quickest aerial to attempt something. Nair's smaller coverage hurts his ability to throw out a hitbox and protect himself like Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Fox, Sonic, and even Link.

(cuz who falls faster than Falco? Not a soul in this game and if they do, they probably aren't good at aerial juggling).

Captain Falcon, Greninja, Triple D, and Fox all fall faster than Falco. Mega Man and Little Mac have the same fall speed as Falco. Roy's a fast faller too. Source: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/FallSpeed.

Of those characters who fall faster than Falco, Captain Falcon is an insane juggler, Greninja juggles well, and Fox either will combo you with Fair and Dair, setup an Up Smash with a late Nair, or punish you hard with Bair and Uair.

A combination of slow air speed and fast fall speed means Falco is a perfect, living juggling pin.

 

[Shaya]

So Greninja then?

I would think Greninja does pretty okay against Luigi when he has such a high base damage aerial that hits low to the ground like forward air. Maybe it's a bit much to think a single aerial crutch like that would save him, but throw in his general mobility, shurikens and likely having fsmash be safe-ish as well, I'm sure he could push for a good match up or an advantage in time.

 

[FullMoon]

I would think Greninja does pretty okay against Luigi when he has such a high base damage aerial that hits low to the ground like forward air. Maybe it's a bit much to think a single aerial crutch like that would save him, but throw in his general mobility, shurikens and likely having fsmash be safe-ish as well, I'm sure he could push for a good match up or an advantage in time.

Well there's pretty much a consensus that Greninja beats Luigi already in both boards.

Plus aMSa did beat both J.Miller and Boss in APEX.

Hell, with the F-Tilt buff, Greninja can keep Luigi out even better on the ground.

 

[Yonder]

I would think Greninja does pretty okay against Luigi when he has such a high base damage aerial that hits low to the ground like forward air. Maybe it's a bit much to think a single aerial crutch like that would save him, but throw in his general mobility, shurikens and likely having fsmash be safe-ish as well, I'm sure he could push for a good match up or an advantage in time.

General consensus is that Greninja has a 60:40 ish on Luigi. I could believe it after Boss and [Edit J Miller] I think it was vs Amsa at Apex, who demolished both of them using Greninja. That's just my example. I haven't fought enough Greninjas myself.

 

[Shaya]

Oh yeah. Good.
And makes sense for all the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Emblem Lord]

From what I see Roy's recovery on aerials is basically the same as Marths. Maybe a frame better, but his air game is not as good overall or as safe. Roy is about reward and the risk he takes since he fights with a reverse grip and people can get in on him. He kills really well on several moves though and Blazer OoS is super legit.

But do not underestimate the buffs Marth got. I think when the dust settles Marth, Ike and Roy will end up near each other, but all excelling at different things.

Sorry Robin

 

[TriTails]

I recall Luigi can shorthop over fully charged Shurikens, so he can safely avoid them without giving too much commitment.

And I'm not even sure if Boss and J. Miller even know the MU. Ally lost because he has no ****ing clue what to do.

It's Greninja adavantage, but not too bad.

Oh, and also. My first 1.0.8 FG is against Ryu. I was like, 'Top lel, the animations are blocky'. Then he gets in, like, WTF did you just become the new Luigi?

Hadokens clash with Fireballs. Yay.

Next is to find Lucas or Roy so I can at least know how they play... I still don't know what is that black-thing that connects to a punch that send seople to his knees that Ryu has (Focus Attack?). Hell, WHICH ONE IS MEWTWO'S CONFUSION?

 

[Ling Ling]

Peach side b has more startup

 

[TriTails]

Peach side b has more startup

...I'm pretty fricking sure I clicked on Character Competitive Impressions and not Lucas, Roy, and Ryu Patch Notes thread.

 

[-RedX-]

I find it odd that Ryu's Shakunetsu is taken out by single hits even though it's multi-hitting.

 

[Ffamran]

Jaysus, I think the patch broke Falco. Skip to 1:07 to see what I'm taking about: https://youtu.be/5FXzYeU1TJA.

Peach side b has more startup

Please use this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/lucas-roy-ryu-1-08-community-patch-notes.406319/unread.

Also, if you're Ling Ling the Peach player, fantastic Peach, man.

...I'm pretty fricking sure I clicked on Character Competitive Impressions and not Lucas, Roy, and Ryu Patch Notes thread.

And I thought we're supposed to be civil with each other.

 

[TriTails]

I guess my sarcasm got loaded with a few extra more bullets than I thought, whoops.

I apologize.

 

[Firefoxx]

Jaysus, I think the patch broke Falco. Skip to 1:07 to see what I'm taking about: https://youtu.be/5FXzYeU1TJA.

Can he approach now? Cause if so, that's scary

 

[Lavani]

Jaysus, I think the patch broke Falco. Skip to 1:07 to see what I'm taking about: https://youtu.be/5FXzYeU1TJA.

Now Falco's nair gives you the full helicopter experience!

That would explain the bizarre amounts of lift it seemed to have now, that's pretty silly.

 

[-RedX-]

Jaysus, I think the patch broke Falco. Skip to 1:07 to see what I'm taking about: https://youtu.be/5FXzYeU1TJA.

Birds produce gusts of wind when flapping their wings.
Can't wait till someone figures out some jank **** with that.

 

[FullMoon]

Now that the hype has died down, Greninja's newly improved F-Tilt is a fun toy. When well spaced (aka you hit with the foot) it seems to be pretty damn safe. It's still a frame 10 move, but it can also be angled up so we can even catch people trying to do a short hop or something as well as it being able to start jab locks and it can even trip people.

It's kinda amazing how it went from super trashy to actually pretty good so fast.

Jaysus, I think the patch broke Falco. Skip to 1:07 to see what I'm taking about: https://youtu.be/5FXzYeU1TJA.

Of all the moves to have a windbox lol.

 

[Ffamran]

Can he approach now? Cause if so, thats pretty scary

It's Kong Cyclone, but by default. Adapt, boys and girls!

Probably not since the range is short; it's probably the game freaking out and trying to figure out how to autolink his Nair while he rises with a high jump. I bet Zelda's Nair could freak out like this if she had Falco's jump.

Birds produce gusts of wind when flapping their wings.
Can't wait till someone figures out some jank **** with that.

Considering it hasn't been a day and IAN figured this out along with figuring out a grab reset with Nair, it's bound to happen sooner or later.

Of all the moves to have a windbox lol.

Well, he's spinning like a propeller or a windmill. Now all we need is a windbox on Fox's Fair and we'll have playable helicopters, Fox and DK, and a playable windmill, Falco.

 

[Ikes]

Now Falco's nair gives you the full helicopter experience!

That would explain the bizarre amounts of lift it seemed to have now, that's pretty silly.

FALCO COMFIRMED VIABLE?

i hope so, I always liked Falco as a character

 

[TTTTTsd]

Okay, Ryu FAir is WICKED and definitely aids in his approach a little bit. Not groundbreaking, but a good deal.

It sticks out long, comes out REALLY FAST, has GREAT range, and the sourspot leads to combos or traps. I think it's the only aerial Ryu can approach with but when used smartly it REALLY works.

 

[Ffamran]

Okay, Ryu FAir is WICKED and definitely aids in his approach a little bit. Not groundbreaking, but a good deal.

It sticks out long, comes out REALLY FAST, has GREAT range, and the sourspot leads to combos or traps. I think it's the only aerial Ryu can approach with but when used smartly it REALLY works.

That's the sex kick, right? So, kind of like Wario's Fair, but with more range?

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's the sex kick, right? So, kind of like Wario's Fair, but with more range?

Think of it like Fox Nair but it stretches out REALLY far. It's like his Nair is his Fair, basically.

It's a REALLY good button holy ****.

 

[Ffamran]

Think of it like Fox Nair but it stretches out REALLY far. It's like his Nair is his Fair, basically.

It's a REALLY good button holy ****.

Or Link's Nair since Link and Ryu are of similar height? And a bit of Mario's Nair. The reason why I said Wario's Fair is because Wario has a move like that and Ryu's air speed is similar.

 

[Nocally]

If only Ken was playable so people could ask: "HOW DO KEN?!"


.

Or what about people asking if you can kill with Ryu: "SURE-YOU-CAN"

 

[Pyr]

Good to see that Roy still has the best rest punish ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv_VeLvrRDI

 

[TTTTTsd]

To elaborate more on Ryu Fair. its speed and range make it REALLY good. The range alone would be great but since it's Frame 6 you can throw it out on REACTION if they attempt to AA you and you know it's going to win. It has no disjointed hitbox but its speed and power are to be commended. Sourspot also pops up for a free combo. It's like a second, longer Nair, on a character who already had a (very good) frame 4 Nair that also crossed up much like this Fair does.

I don't see how his approach is awful. I think it's simply mediocre. I feel like the only chars that can lame Ryu out are the excessive/really good zoners, and like, Pikachu and probably Sonic (maybe Sheik on Dreamland if she needlecamps, perhaps?). Outside of that, Ryu can feasibly get in on most people because while his mobility isn't great, as a former Doc player I can say it MORE than works. My former character got camped like 2-3 times as bad as he did, realistically, by non-zoner chars X_X.

 

[DairunCates]

I don't see how his approach is awful. I think it's simply mediocre. I feel like the only chars that can lame Ryu out are the excessive/really good zoners.

Oh hey. Looks like WFT got a buff this patch after all. :D

Joking aside. While I think it's too early to tell, I think the two biggest problem Ryu has to his approach game is that most of his quick attacks have both small range and a lack of any good mutli-directional hitboxes. That combination is pretty bad for approaching. It certainly can work, but I wouldn't necessary call that mediocre. It's definitely a challenge for the character. I know in my testing I had trouble just getting hits in against longer range characters without having to do some real mix-ups. Mind you. Ryu's frame traps are where he really shines. You can't approach an aggressive opponent very well, but if you CAN get them on the defensive, he has a million and a half ways to punish that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh hey. Looks like WFT got a buff this patch after all. :D

Joking aside. While I think it's too early to tell, I think the two biggest problem Ryu has to his approach game is that most of his quick attacks have both small range and a lack of any good mutli-directional hitboxes. That combination is pretty bad for approaching. It certainly can work, but I wouldn't necessary call that mediocre. It's definitely a challenge for the character. I know in my testing I had trouble just getting hits in against longer range characters without having to do some real mix-ups. Mind you. Ryu's frame traps are where he really shines. You can't approach an aggressive opponent very well, but if you CAN get them on the defensive, he has a million and a half ways to punish that.

Yeah, most of his approaches (i.e. Nair and Fair that's about it, outside of RAR Bair if you feel like being a hoss) really only have one (two if you count Fair in front and below but I consider it one) area, which is like, the front and belowish place. Despite crossing up, they're not exceptional for approaching. I have to agree, when they're on defense and Ryu's in their space, he's pretty much taken the stock or a significant amount of % if played properly, no question there. The reward Ryu gets when he's in is like, absurd enough to justify it outside of certain MUs.

Ryu vs. WFT sounds like a fun MU though.