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Character Competitive Impressions

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Trifroze

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Yes that exactly what I'm saying. It's even more incredibly frustrating when your main doesn't get any buffs or very few buffs and they still aren't close to being at the same level tier wise as other characters. I seriously don't understand why people can act so sad about a high tier character getting one change and still being good, while we who play low tiers have to work harder to beat people.

Sure Falcon loses vertical threats, but at least he HAS threats. Some characters have no threats, and we have to make up for them, I'm not complaining my characters didn't get that buffed. I'm complaining that people are complaint about their character who is still good getting a little nerfed.

Sorry for any errors I'm on phone.
I am criticizing the fact that things weren't taken care of in the way that would've been much better for the metagame.

Now time for you to follow your own points and stop complaining because at least you don't live on the streets (I'd wager). How can we complain about video game characters when we all have shelter after all. Sure you may use a low tier but at least you have clothes and food !
 
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Ryu_Ken

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So I've spent a lot more time with Lucas. No seriously, this character is really, really bad. However, yes zair is ridiculous. I was just playing him like Brawl Samus, spacing zairs all day for 2% to shut down pretty much any non-Sonic tier mobility. Wait for them to make a mistake getting past it or to get hit in a bad way that gives you a follow up and then punish heavy. He has great follow-ups and all off tons of stuff (damage per hit is really low though; smashes are most of the double digit damage you'll be seeing), but outside of zair his neutral is just atrocious. Pk Fire is powershield bait. Lucas's mobility is sluggish. He just fundamentally has no good approach options at all other than zair; his only moves that have any kind of safety can't really be used in a mobile way other than zair which makes him extremely one-dimensional. His Pk Thunder makes me very sad. It's so laggy that you can do approximately nothing good offensively with it; virtually all of the endless clever tricks Ness had just aren't worth it because the endlag is so long while the projectile doesn't stick around long enough, and even if you do hit with something, the damage is just sad and it doesn't kill. His throws are good but it doesn't really matter since he has a ZSS level grab, just awful. I will be shocked if Lucas is not bottom 5, and even worse, unlike bad characters like Zelda his playstyle is extremely slow and obnoxious (like Brawl Samus with less control and more rewards). I honestly am kinda blown away Lucas shipped like this; this would seem to be a very poorly designed character as he stands. At least if you're really clever you can use Pk Freeze to hit the single frame ledge grab vulnerability, and it makes you feel really awesome (Pk Freeze is still not good but is way better than it was in Brawl)!
So basically, what you're saying is that Lucas got nerfed from Brawl and suffers from Sm4sh's mechanics?
I think it's way too early to place Lucas, let alone THAT low. We'll see whether or not he really suffers that much once people get a handle on him and his MUs.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ryu has problems but im not seeing anything less then A tier.

Shoryuken is the best punish in the game period. If he blocks any kill move from anyone its shield drop True Shoryu for a kill if they are at 95% or above its insanity. His risk v reward is skewed super heavy. He does not care how heavy his opponent is. If you do not respect him, he will end you. period.
 

LightLV

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Ryu is a Sakurai-approved project M character. His frames are ridiculous, his options are endless, like everything he does KOs. Very fun to play. Dont know if he's worth calling OP yet.

Roy - A fire emblem character except actually good.

His hiltspot mechanic has been made practical by his moveset changes, which is good because Marth's range is garbage. All of his normals are useful, his specials are very decent, great mobility, he has guaranteed combos, ridiculous strength...basically, he's Ike, if Ike was designed to actually be a good character.

It really baffles the everloving **** out of me how Sakurai will greenlight a character like Roy...23% Fsmash that KOs at 65% with the speed of Marth's, guarnteed combos off throws, actually good frames...yet in the same breadth look at characters like Lucina, Marth and Ike and leave them as they are, underwhelming and completely outclassed.

Why the HELL would anyone play any of the other fire emblem swordsmen when you can play Roy?


Lucas is...well, Lucas. Pretty much ported from brawl, there's really nothing exciting or interesting about him.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Marths aerial game is better. He has ACs. Roy does not. And Marth has better walk speed. They are basically the inverse of one another. Lucina is fan service we all know that.

So Roy is stylish bruiser type who relies more on set-ups and grab confirms. Marth relies on pokes and patience. Both can excel at what they do. Marths jab does ALOT for him, ESPECIALLY with Crescent Slash. Sets up perfectly for it. Either first hit to grab then f-throw to CS or grab release to CS. Or both hits then you get a solid mix-up situation.
 

Rich Homie Quan

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Wow, Roy is really good.

His mobility is interesting...SH N-air feels a lot like Marth's FF N-air in Melee. SH F-air feels like brawl Ike.

What he has going for him are his really quick ground moves. Jab, and tilts are great. On top of that, he kills really early.

What hurts him is his recovery, and his aerials not being too safe on sheild. This is kind of where he breaks down, his aerials are good moves but they're a bit risky.

You really gotta set up well. His ground game can do that.
 
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Lavani

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A question to those with Lucas:

Is ledge trump bair spike real, and if so how strong is it?
 

LightLV

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He got the greenlight because it took their team more then 1 day to test and examine the character. =^3
Samus exists, and she has existed in her state of ass-ness for 3 patches now. Just let that sink in.
 

Ffamran

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Falco on the surface was nerfed, but apparently, A2 tested his Uair and it comes out around frame 7 now. For reference, that's 1 frame slower than Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Uair. Fair I believe is close to its Brawl speed of frame 6. Probably not frame 6, but maybe 8? In return for 1% on Uair, knockback, being a decent kill move in the air, and a sour-spot for hit confirms, his Uair has potentially been sped up by 3 frames. Great for juggling, but I preferred Falco being able to snipe a Uair and send people up hard. Oh well.

Fair, if quicker, then it means he has a ridiculous move for edgeguarding made even more ridiculous. In return for 2% on the landing hit, this move gained another 1% hit for more active frames and making its total 9%, and potentially, its startup and landing lag was decreased. Back then, it was telegraphed so if Falco threw out a Fair, he needed to be sure it'll connect and an opponent can't escape, but if it's frame 8 or even 6? That's like if you threw out Sheik's Fair to gimp, but if it lasted a long time. This move went from being Falco's worst move in Brawl to good in Smash 4's launch and now, pretty damn good. Oh, and Nair connects better and unconfirmed, but his rapid jab might have autolink angles now.

Falco's going to be a bit more difficult to challenge in the air now with Nair's autolink and Fair's quicker startup combined with Uair's back to front coverage and Bair's hard punish. Okay, so better air game a slightly easier time to challenge things in the air, but Falco's still a messed up character because of his mobility, poor (or lack thereof) projectile game, and his disadvantage state isn't good by any means since Fair's not exactly a quick sex kick like his old Bair. His air game change is cool, but I would have liked it if his mobility was buffed instead. I mean, dude, Smash 4 Roy's as fast as Sheik - Melee Roy was slower than Melee Sheik -, but Falco's still slower than his Melee incarnation on the ground and his air mobility could be considered slower since his fall speed isn't the insane Melee fall speed. Falco also doesn't have the mobility or a setup like Luigi to make use of his new Uair juggle and Fair is just faster for interception... Interception, that's what he's been doing all the time along with Ganondorf since they can't rush in like Captain Falcon or Fox and beat people up.

Falco's probably not moving anywhere and he might even drop since other characters like Marth, Lucina, Ike, and Zelda were buffed while building on their game plan. Falco's game plan pretty much changes ever so slightly, but a small change to a game plan can take time to figure out. Remember Sheik's Bair? Sheik had to figure out how to use her Bair after patch 1.0.6.

\
It really baffles the everloving **** out of me how Sakurai will greenlight a character like Roy...23% Fsmash that KOs at 65% with the speed of Marth's, guarnteed combos off throws, actually good frames...yet in the same breadth look at characters like Lucina and Ike and leave them as they are, underwhelming and completely outclassed.
Roy's Side Smash always did 20% in Melee and in Smash 4 if you hit with the base. It's just a thing about him like how Marth's tipper Side Smash was always powerful, but in Smash 4, it's even more powerful.

It's early, but I kind of want people to ask this: how does Roy approach? He's sort of doing the same dealio as Captain Falcon, Fox, and Lucina, but Roy's range is even shorter since his center hits are where the power's at while tippers are kind of funny - the sound effect for his sword sounds like a freaking metal bat.

Samus exists, and she has existed in her state of ***-ness for 3 patches now. Just let that sink in.
At least she didn't get nerfed or had her game plan changed like Falco's almost per patch.
 
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Man Li Gi

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I can understand Falcon's Uair nerf (the move did 13%, more than Ganon's and had better followups than Ganon's, just wasn't as strong in terms of KO, but that doesn't really matter much as it could lead into many things), but was it really "deserved"?

I feel the people complaining here saying it was so good don't really understand the necessity of a move like that was on CF as it was one of the pressure tools that he needed to be even considered in the realms of high tier. With that nerf, all CF has is a Jab, Bair, and his mobility which does sound like a good amount more of tools than others have, but given that he has a horrid recovery, reads for kills, tall/missing shorter characters, a shield that get poked easy and other flaws that I don't feel like posting about, it was the MAIN tool that kept him the relevance of top players.

If the 2% nerf was the only thing that took place, I would be fine, but the KB? Really Sakurai?

Don't get me started on how silly the nerfs he's giving to Kirby and Diddy (minor for Kirby, but a nerf nonetheless).
 

A2ZOMG

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At Splash N' Smash, Scatt just pulled out Ganon to take a game off Ally's Mario. Developing!
Should I be surprised? I've always said that matchup is favorable for Ganon. Though no vids doesn't tell me a lot.
Falco on the surface was nerfed, but apparently, A2 tested his Uair and it comes out around frame 7 now. For reference, that's 1 frame slower than Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Uair. Fair I believe is close to its Brawl speed of frame 6. Probably not frame 6, but maybe 8? In return for 1% on Uair, knockback, being a decent kill move in the air, and a sour-spot for hit confirms, his Uair has potentially been sped up by 3 frames. Great for juggling, but I preferred Falco being able to snipe a Uair and send people up hard. Oh well.

Fair, if quicker, then it means he has a ridiculous move for edgeguarding made even more ridiculous. In return for 2% on the landing hit, this move gained another 1% hit for more active frames and making its total 9%, and potentially, its startup and landing lag was decreased. Back then, it was telegraphed so if Falco threw out a Fair, he needed to be sure it'll connect and an opponent can't escape, but if it's frame 8 or even 6? That's like if you threw out Sheik's Fair to gimp, but if it lasted a long time. This move went from being Falco's worst move in Brawl to good in Smash 4's launch and now, pretty damn good. Oh, and Nair connects better and unconfirmed, but his rapid jab might have autolink angles now.

Falco's going to be a bit more difficult to challenge in the air now with Nair's autolink and Fair's quicker startup combined with Uair's back to front coverage and Bair's hard punish. Okay, so better air game a slightly easier time to challenge things in the air, but Falco's still a messed up character because of his mobility, poor (or lack thereof) projectile game, and his disadvantage state isn't good by any means since Fair's not exactly a quick sex kick like his old Bair. His air game change is cool, but I would have liked it if his mobility was buffed instead. I mean, dude, Smash 4 Roy's as fast as Sheik - Melee Roy was slower than Melee Sheik -, but Falco's still slower than his Melee incarnation on the ground and his air mobility could be considered slower since his fall speed isn't the insane Melee fall speed. Falco also doesn't have the mobility or a setup like Luigi to make use of his new Uair juggle and Fair is just faster for interception... Interception, that's what he's been doing all the time along with Ganondorf since they can't rush in like Captain Falcon or Fox and beat people up.

Falco's probably not moving anywhere and he might even drop since other characters like Marth, Lucina, Ike, and Zelda were buffed while building on their game plan. Falco's game plan pretty much changes ever so slightly, but a small change to a game plan can take time to figure out. Remember Sheik's Bair? Sheik had to figure out how to use her Bair after patch 1.0.6.


Roy's Side Smash always did 20% in Melee and in Smash 4 if you hit with the base. It's just a thing about him like how Marth's tipper Side Smash was always powerful, but in Smash 4, it's even more powerful.

It's early, but I kind of want people to ask this: how does Roy approach? He's sort of doing the same dealio as Captain Falcon, Fox, and Lucina, but Roy's range is even shorter since his center hits are where the power's at while tippers are kind of funny - the sound effect for his sword sounds like a freaking metal bat.


At least she didn't get nerfed or had her game plan changed like Falco's almost per patch.
I think you're underestimating N-air. The fact the move connects a lot more consistently really improves Falco's entire gameplan noticeably. Much better oos, for covering approaches/rolls, juggles, EDGEGUARDS ESPECIALLY THIS MOVE CAN KILL, and it's still a 3 frame move. 3 frame aerial that does 11% seriously. Especially nice now that it always sends your opponent forwards meaning D-throw N-air -> other juggle followups is waaay easier.
 
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Ffamran

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Should I be surprised? I've always said that matchup is favorable for Ganon. Though no vids doesn't tell me a lot.
I think you're underestimating N-air. The fact the move connects a lot more consistently really improves Falco's entire gameplan noticeably. Much better oos, for covering approaches/rolls, juggles, EDGEGUARDS ESPECIALLY THIS MOVE CAN KILL, and it's still a 3 frame move. 3 frame aerial that does 11% seriously.
I wasn't underestimating his Nair. It was always a good move in Brawl and Smash 4, but now it just connects better. Back then, you could RAR it to connect better for some reason, now it connects whenever. Fair is more notable since SDI wrecked it in Brawl, but Falco's Nair in Brawl functioned well and in Smash 4 without autolink angles, but not that it does, it's just more consistent. Zelda's Nair has autolink angles, does 11% in the front and 7% in the back - it hits weird -, is disjointed, and it's a frame 6 move with a lot of range. Hell, it even kills at similar percents as Falco's except Zelda's began with autolink angles, is disjointed, and more range.

I mean, Ganondorf's Nair is awesome, but could you imagine if it could connect the second hit consistently? It just got better, but it was always a good move.
 
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Balgorxz

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all 3 DLC characters are great, lots of options and followups they just feel right.
Falco and Ike changes are really surprising, their playstyle will surely change in the future try them for some minutes and you will get it.
 

A2ZOMG

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I wasn't underestimating his Nair. It was always a good move in Brawl and Smash 4, but now it just connects better. Back then, you could RAR it to connect better for some reason, now it connects whenever. Fair is more notable since SDI wrecked it in Brawl, but Falco's Nair in Brawl functioned well and in Smash 4 without autolink angles, but not that it does, it's just more consistent. Zelda's Nair has autolink angles, does 11% in the front and 7% in the back - it hits weird -, is disjointed, and it's a frame 6 move with a lot of range. Hell, it even kills at similar percents as Falco's except Zelda's began with autolink angles, is disjointed, and more range.

I mean, Ganondorf's Nair is awesome, but could you imagine if it could connect the second hit consistently? It just got better, but it was always a good move.
I don't think the comparison is that fair. Furthermore I don't think Ganon's N-air connecting all the time would really change/improve the core utility by much. It would still just mostly be his general spacing/gtfo move.

Falco's N-air in contrast, you can now much more aggressively space it in all situations ESPECIALLY OFFSTAGE AND OUT OF SHIELD. Previously Falco couldn't really use many aerials out of shield, but N-air actually is now not terrible out of shield. And edgeguarding with N-air in all directions is much better allowing you to end stocks in way more situations, for example it's much easier to catch people who hug the stage, something F-air is not that good at doing.
 

Antonykun

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I'm really embarrassed to ask this but how do I kill with Ryu?
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Ryu is definitely really good. At least high tier material. He has the options, power, low landing lag, kill confirms, with just enough frame data/mobility to ensure that he will definitely be a threat. And his Focus Attack just feels boarderline broken somtetimes, even if it is very punishable if it misses or against grabs/command grabs. Though I think he has his fair share of problems that will hold him back.

Firstly, his vertical recovery is very lacking, but people already know this. His really low aerial deceleration also means that he has to commit to his jumps a lot more than most characters. On top of that, besides Fair/Bair, his aerials have pretty poor range, and all of them are very linear, thus making them more predictable. Fair is the best of the lot with the large constant hitbox that it has, and because the sourspot leads into combos.

However, one other weakness that he has is against disjoints. And while this has been mentioned before, I think he might have a harder time against characters with good Dtilt disjoints in particular. My reasoning behind this is that, besides his own Dtilt/Dsmash, all of his other grounded hitboxes hit pretty high. So if a character has a really good Dtilt that can beat Ryu's own Dtilt/Dsmash, or at least can reliably contest them, the matchup with Ryu will be easier for those characters. So characters with good disjoiints/Dtilts and aerials will be able to keep Ryu in check.

Even so, you do NOT want to sleep on Ryu. One wrong read, and you could get hit by a FADC -> Dair/Fair -> DP or something like that, and now you've just taken about ~40% damage. And against Ryu with his insane knockback and damage output, that's pretty much kissing almost half of your stock goodbye.
 

LightLV

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Falco's probably not moving anywhere and he might even drop since other characters like Marth, Lucina, Ike, and Zelda were buffed while building on their game plan. Falco's game plan pretty much changes ever so slightly, but a small change to a game plan can take time to figure out. Remember Sheik's Bair? Sheik had to figure out how to use her Bair after patch 1.0.6.
I kind of feel like Falco deserves a higher spot than Marth even before the patch, which puts him by default higher than Lucina. Ike was never a bad character, he just has nothing exceptional, and his risks easily offset whatever strongpoints he has. Zelda is just....ugh.

I hear Falco's Nair now always moves the victim in the direction he's facing? That is most certainly and undeniably a buff. No amount of Zelda buffs short of an overhaul will cause her to displace anyone else on the roster.

Roy's Side Smash always did 20% in Melee and in Smash 4 if you hit with the base. It's just a thing about him like how Marth's tipper Side Smash was always powerful, but in Smash 4, it's even more powerful.
The thing is, Roy and Marth were a bit different in melee. Their range was ridiculous, and while Roy would EASILY murder you early with a well-placed hit, Marth's range + tipper just outclassed that advantage too much. Roy needed to be in near grab range to be effective while Marth could tipper you from roll distance away. Now, Marth's range isn't anything even noteworthy, his tipper is still really strong but you don't get the same advantage out of it that you did before because it's way closer to him. Not to mention the loss of shieldstun and shieldpush near the edge, Marth's pressure is a shell of what it used to be.

Roy though, he lost his amazing dtilt angle, but he can combo guaranteed off Dthrow and jab, and his sweetspot is much easier to strike with now. His range is pretty terrible, recovery on the bad side, but he's very nimble, with very good and fast tools in his effective range with massive reward off a clean strike.

The game is alot more reliant on reads now than pressure, and Roy just blows you away with them.

It's early, but I kind of want people to ask this: how does Roy approach? He's sort of doing the same dealio as Captain Falcon, Fox, and Lucina, but Roy's range is even shorter since his center hits are where the power's at while tippers are kind of funny - the sound effect for his sword sounds like a freaking metal bat.
Not that much different from Marth's, i think? Maybe alot more ground focused? Roy's normals dont cover much distance but they come out very fast, protect his hurtbox and aren't really worth trading against. And his grab is actually worth fearing. I dont think his aerial attacks are quite as good for poking but his movement speed in the air and on the ground are superior i'd say. His dash attack actually kills.
 
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Ffamran

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I don't think the comparison is that fair. Furthermore I don't think Ganon's N-air connecting all the time would really change/improve the core utility by much. It would still just mostly be his general spacing/gtfo move.
Dude. Ganondorf's Nair does 12% with the first hit and 9% for the second if both clean. Otherwise, it'll do 7% for the first hit and 5% for the second hit late. If it connected consistently, then Ganondorf would be doing 21% per Nair. Do you know how insane that would be? A frame 7 hit connecting into 21% would be amazing and hella broken.

Falco's N-air in contrast, you can now much more aggressively space it in all situations ESPECIALLY OFFSTAGE AND OUT OF SHIELD. Previously Falco couldn't really use many aerials out of shield, but N-air actually is now not terrible out of shield. And edgeguarding with N-air in all directions is much better allowing you to end stocks in way more situations, for example it's much easier to catch people who hug the stage, something F-air is not that good at doing.
Yes, but even before, Falco could connect Nair well. Now, it's less of a gamble to use a good option and now just simply a good option. Edgeguarding-wise, even if people fell out, you've just stalled their momentum like with Fair, but with a quicker move or if it hits with the weak hit, a gimp. Even before, Falco was able to use Nair to stage spike and gimp people with Nair, but Fair's properties made it much safer compared to Nair. Now, Falco has a quicker Fair and a more reliable Nair. He can use whatever the hell he wants to edgeguard now. Out of shield, Falco can do a more reliable Nair, maybe Fair because it's quicker - still unconfirmed by how quick -, Bair if people are behind him, maybe Uair, jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Dtilt, Up Smash, Down Smash, and grab. This patch just made Nair more reliable and Fair and Uair quicker OOS options. Still, the main issue with Nair is range and coverage since it doesn't cover the entire body of Falco while Fair covers like his head to waist. For edgeguarding, he still needs to be on point and in someone's face.

I'm really embarrassed to ask this but how do I kill with Ryu?
If only Ken was playable so people could ask: "HOW DO KEN?!" :p

I kind of feel like Falco deserves a higher spot than Marth even before the patch, which puts him by default higher than Lucina. Ike was never a bad character, he just has nothing exceptional, and his risks easily offset whatever strongpoints he has. Zelda is just....ugh.
I meant as in characters strictly getting buffs while Falco was nerfed, buffed, and changed in game plan.
 

A2ZOMG

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Dude. Ganondorf's Nair does 12% with the first hit and 9% for the second if both clean. Otherwise, it'll do 7% for the first hit and 5% for the second hit late. If it connected consistently, then Ganondorf would be doing 21% per Nair. Do you know how insane that would be? A frame 7 hit connecting into 21% would be amazing and hella broken.


Yes, but even before, Falco could connect Nair well. Now, it's less of a gamble to use a good option and now just simply a good option. Edgeguarding-wise, even if people fell out, you've just stalled their momentum like with Fair, but with a quicker move or if it hits with the weak hit, a gimp. Even before, Falco was able to use Nair to stage spike and gimp people with Nair, but Fair's properties made it much safer compared to Nair. Now, Falco has a quicker Fair and a more reliable Nair. He can use whatever the hell he wants to edgeguard now. Out of shield, Falco can do a more reliable Nair, maybe Fair because it's quicker - still unconfirmed by how quick -, Bair if people are behind him, maybe Uair, jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Dtilt, Up Smash, Down Smash, and grab. This patch just made Nair more reliable and Fair and Uair quicker OOS options. Still, the main issue with Nair is range and coverage since it doesn't cover the entire body of Falco while Fair covers like his head to waist. For edgeguarding, he still needs to be on point and in someone's face.


If only Ken was playable so people could ask: "HOW DO KEN?!" :p


I meant as in characters strictly getting buffs while Falco was nerfed, buffed, and changed in game plan.
Firstoff, you never exactly specified how Ganon's N-air would connect consistently in the first place. It would require drastic reworks to the knockback or frames of the move. Depending on how you did it, the changes would not automatically be strict buffs for Ganon's N-air.

Also Ganon already does like 17% on his B-air which outranges like everything and kills everyone at like 100% but nobody calls that broken. Not to mention Flame Choke -> tilt which is like 26%. Damage building really isn't a problem for Ganon.

Also you just said "stage spike". Falco doesn't need to stage spike a stage hug recovery when edgeguarding with N-air, which reaches further behind him than F-air. This is massively useful.
 
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LightLV

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I meant as in characters strictly getting buffs while Falco was nerfed, buffed, and changed in game plan.
I hear his Fair got faster, and his Nair has a more reliable trajectory.

Doesn't seem like his gameplan has changed much at all, only more solidified. Falco's normals and air game are really good, and a more speedy Fair and a guaranteed Nair trajectory can only really help his edgeguarding.

His specials are still garbage though, and since it seems like they got no buffs i can only assume its by design.
 

Ffamran

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Also Ganon already does like 17% on his B-air which outranges like everything and kills everyone at like 100% but nobody calls that broken. Not to mention Flame Choke -> tilt which is like 26%. Damage building really isn't a problem for Ganon.
Well, it's a strong move on a slower character. If Sheik had Ganondorf's Bair, people would be raging.

Also you just said "stage spike". Falco doesn't need to stage spike a stage hug recovery when edgeguarding with N-air, which reaches further behind him than F-air. This is massively useful.
Do you mean Falco would Nair while sliding along the stage's ledge? Not a lot of characters tend to hug the stage like that unless they're someone like Ike, Captain Falcon, or Sonic. Wait, shouldn't Zelda, Pit, and Palutena be able to do this as well? Pikachu can from what I remember. Even then, Nair could have done that prior to the patch. Maybe less consistently and Fair still has a large enough hitbox to edgeguard like that on certain characters...

Did Falco just become the ultimate edgeguarder because of this patch? A frame 3 Nair that probably will gimp, a faster Fair, a powerful Bair for stage spiking or outright kills, and the occasional Dair and Falco Phantasm spikes and laser gimps. Uair used to be able to kill people standing at the ledge, but now it probably can't.
 

Thinkaman

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Did Falco just become the ultimate edgeguarder because of this patch? A frame 3 Nair that probably will gimp, a faster Fair, a powerful Bair for stage spiking or outright kills, and the occasional Dair and Falco Phantasm spikes and laser gimps. Uair used to be able to kill people standing at the ledge, but now it probably can't.
Hm, this would be an interesting identity. Something to play around with more.

Also, Village gained a better d-throw but huge recovery nerf. (To both default and EBT--EBT stalling is much worse now, much less timing mixups possible) How do we anticipate this affecting Murabito?
 

Antonykun

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Hm, this would be an interesting identity. Something to play around with more.

Also, Village gained a better d-throw but huge recovery nerf. (To both default and EBT--EBT stalling is much worse now, much less timing mixups possible) How do we anticipate this affecting Murabito?
wait how did she get nerfed?
 

Ffamran

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Doesn't seem like his gameplan has changed much at all, only more solidified. Falco's normals and air game are really good, and a more speedy Fair and a guaranteed Nair trajectory can only really help his edgeguarding.
Uair being more of a low knockback juggle instead of high knockback juggle does change his Uair chase game. Faster Uair and Fair would lead to adjustments to timing and Nair being a more reliable move means people will learn to implement it more and into edgeguarding.

His specials are still garbage though, and since it seems like they got no buffs i can only assume its by design.
Funny how Falco has the best "Shine" in the game. Default for spacing and Reflector Void for kills and spacing. :p

Still wished his Fire Bird was "Wolfified" and his Falco Phantasm was safer. Hell, make it so his Side Special can be angled down - like a controllable Falcon Kick or Wizard's Foot or an inverse Wolf Flash - so he can dive like a bird of prey even though he's a pheasant and pheasants aren't birds of prey. As for Blaster... Could we just give him a sniper rifle in the next game? If they want that long end lag and range, why not just give him a freaking sniper rifle. He even poses with one in Assault.

Hm, this would be an interesting identity. Something to play around with more.
Well, people did note his janky edgeguard game in the beginning when Fair spikes where a thing and after that, people noted his strong ability to go deep off-stage which probably lead to Distant Fire Bird being an invested pick over Fast Fire Bird. The main issue was that Fair wasn't that fast, Dair's slow (and still slow), and Nair wasn't reliable. Things then lead to figuring out about how to manipulate his Falco Phantasm, how hit stun prevents people from grabbing the ledge making precise lasers able to gimp, and ledge trumping. Now, if things can be confirmed, a faster Fair, more reliable Nair, his Bair, Blaster for gimping, Explosive Blaster for trapping, Falco Phantasm and Dair for spiking, and ledge trumping makes him a dangerous edgeguarder.

Unrelated: Kind of like how I feel like Roy is similar to Wolf, but with much faster ground speed and no projectile. Think about it, Mr. Thinkaman. Fast air speed, low jump, and aerials with low landing lag. His Blazer functions a bit like PM Wolf's Wolf Flash where you could slightly angle its trajectory.
 
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Ikes

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Roy's tools don't really seem too convincing to me. How should he be played at high level for people to think he's very good? Many of his attacks have quite a bit of endlag/startup without enough %. Some attacks like uair are really good, but he has plenty of mediocre ones.

He has no short hop autocancels, his shield takes a long time to appear after a dash, and his dash attack & dash grab don't feel all that great, so I feel like I don't have too many options once I initiate a dash.
His sword's sweetspot is well over half the blade, so he does lots of damage very reliably and kills fairly easily

also I dont know where people are getting this Lucas is Bad mindset from, I've been finding that he plays really well when used aggressively, he's got a lot of disjoint and multihit moves, fairly good mobility, low landing lag (Dair can combo into utilt pretty reliably), His utilt combos into uair which is really good a early percents, dthrow into uair and fair, PK fire is really good for forcing an opponent offstage, ftilt is a good disjointed ftilt but nothing super special, dtilt is very fast and has a longer reach than Ness', albeit it's a bit slower (but still incredibly rapid), Dsmash kills on the first hit sweetspotted and cant be spot dodged, usmash cant be reliably spot dodged, fair is almost like Pac-Man's in nature, but more seemingly damaging(?) and disjointed (the shorthop fairs are absolutely real)

what make people think he's bad? and the "Bottom 5" claim is absolutely absurd. I honestly feel he's on par with Ness if not marginally better.
 
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LightLV

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Did Falco just become the ultimate edgeguarder because of this patch? A frame 3 Nair that probably will gimp, a faster Fair, a powerful Bair for stage spiking or outright kills, and the occasional Dair and Falco Phantasm spikes and laser gimps. Uair used to be able to kill people standing at the ledge, but now it probably can't.
If Falco jumps out and hits you with nearly anything while you're trying to recover, you die. I think this has always been a strongpoint for him. The issue here i think is the risk Falco has to put himself in to do this, unlike someone like Falcon who can just Dair you because the hitbox is hilarious or utilt you because why not.

I feel like Dair is certainly the worst move in Falco's arsenal, and if it were comparable to say Falcon or Gannon's, he would hold this title already.


Uair being more of a low knockback juggle instead of high knockback juggle does change his Uair chase game.
Wait, what? How did this happen?

Funny how Falco has the best "Shine" in the game. Default for spacing and Reflector Void for kills and spacing. :p
Reflector is good. His lasers are dreadful, for how unsafe they are i feel like they should do about 3% more damage. His specials are mostly just lacking in the sense that you wont be KOing anyone with them.

I think Side B is decent because it recovers fast in the air at least. It spikes, but i've only ever managed to kill people with this by mistake, i've intentionally hit people with this in the 90% range and watched them still recover.
 
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Ffamran

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His sword's sweetspot is well over half the blade, so he does lots of damage very reliably and kills fairly easily
He has short range for a swordsman. Roy's range looks like Toon Link's. If he didn't have to style with reverse-grip swings, he wouldn't be in this trouble.

If Falco jumps out and hits you with nearly anything while you're trying to recover, you die. I think this has always been a strongpoint for him. The issue here i think is the risk Falco has to put himself in to do this, unlike someone like Falcon who can just Dair you because the hitbox is hilarious or utilt you because why not.

I feel like Dair is certainly the worst move in Falco's arsenal, and if it were comparable to say Falcon or Gannon's, he would hold this title already.
Yeah, he had to throw out an unreliable, but quick frame 3 Nair, try to kill or stage spike with a short-ranged frame 4 Bair, go for a read with a frame 16 Dair and frame 18 Falco Phantasm spike, be a crack-shot with Blaster, or throw out a lingering hitbox with a frame 12 Fair.

Wait, what? How did this happen?
Uair does 1% less, lost its sourspot, body hitbox which used to be able to hit confirm into Bair, and knockback was changed. Uair also went from being a frame 10 hit to 7 if A2's right.

Reflector is good. His lasers are dreadful, for how unsafe they are i feel like they should do about 3% more damage. His specials are mostly just lacking in the sense that you wont be KOing anyone with them.
Blaster does not need to cover about a 2/3's of Final Destination, it does not need to rapid fire, and nor does it need to be able to auto-cancel. Look at Ryu's Hadouken, Rosalina's Shooting Star Bit, Luigi's Fireball, or Fox's Impact Blaster. None of them can be fired repeatedly like Falco's, but they're good zoning tools unlike Falco's. Luigi's Fireball only covers like 1/3 of Final Destination, but the low end lag, the safety is what makes it so strong. Hell, look at Sheik's single Needle which does 1%, but has hitstun and low end lag. The only reason a projectile needs to fire rapidly is if they do no knockback like Fox's default Blaster or little to no knockback like Mega Man's lemons. You could give Falco Fox's Impact Blaster, tweak the knockback, and he'd have a good if not decent zoning game.
 

Antonykun

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Fuel regen rate is now non-trivial. Try flying around too much rapidly.
From the patch thread

Villager :4villagerf:-
  • Balloon Trip Mechanics altered to a fuel system similar to ROB, hurting consecutive usages
  • Down Throw Damage 4.5%-> 6%
ah I see so she got hit by the nerf stick
Down throw doesn't get any true combos and its from that horrible frame 14 only 2 active hitbox grab
Mean while EBT is no longer the best Recovery in the game as villager just plummets with no warning should she run out of "fuel"
on the other hand Regular balloon trip has so much "fuel" that it is not affected to harshly by it
 

Baby_Sneak

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I, for one, feels Falco is pretty solid-ish right now
He has a jab that beats other jabs pretty consisently due to range to speed ratio being better than most (haven't came across any character that beats it at Max range yet)
He has UTilt that juggled into itself for 50 years and does 5775299%
His Dthrow is silly with follow ups, like every other character, but his DMG output is pretty strong, so you can take the opponent 0-40/50 pretty quick.
He has a somewhat flexible approach game with side b, walking, and aggro spacing.
Falco just feels really good at the stage I'm in right now. It's just that if you get hit with falco, it's like "oh well better luck next stock" so he's super technical and not forgiving In the slightest bit.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I'm home now after playing pretty much all day. Let me give some more detail about what I'm seeing with the DLC characters and respond to some stuff.

is zair really :4lucas: only safe tool in neutral? fair has little ending lag and has a big disjoint, and does decent damage to boot.
Lucas has a lot of moves that are actually pretty safe on block, and fair is one of them (spaced fsmash and dsmash in general are often safe too). The problem is that if you try to approach with fair you're really free to anti-air. The move isn't slow but it isn't blinding fast, the hitboxes are kinda small (the disjoint is a lot less helpful than it looks), and Lucas isn't exceptionally mobile. I was using fair some as a mix-up from zairs (if it hits it does something like 8% which is a lot for Lucas!). If his opponent just hangs back and boxes him out, I really don't see Lucas as having any kind of good options other than zair (which is ridiculous but against an opponent fighting back almost never leads to damage). If Lucas had a real grab he could work around so much of this, but his grab is one of the worst in the game which is kinda a big problem. Dash attack is kinda good in some ways but starts up slower than a typical dash attack as well, just makes a hard job harder...

---

I can't stress enough how basic and strong Roy's game is. You don't need to always hit with the center of the blade; hitting with the tip is still staying safe and doing damage. The philosophy with Roy is to just throw moves out spaced. If you hit with the tip, you're succeeding in keeping them out. If you hit with the center, they almost got in and are rewarded by dying like they got hit by Ganon (and if they block, Roy's stronger deep hit helps protect you by doing additional blockstun and pushback). If they get uncomfortably close, you have a frame 4 super armor up-B and a general purpose excellent "get off me" jab both of which are big difference points between Roy and every other swordsman.

Also, seriously, if you have time to start it up, there's no reason not to use Flare Blade. It's nearly unconditionally safe on block or whiff since the hitboxes are so huge and it has almost no cooldown (unless you full charge it but that would be poor judgment). Uncharged it doesn't really hit that hard, but it controls space and sets the pace of the match. It can also be used in the air which is nice; people are talking about how Roy doesn't have a lot of AC aerials which is kinda true but you can use Flare Blade whenever which covers a lot of that (he also has Marth's excellent nair and his own unique and quite good fair to poke with and mix up) though honestly not jumping so much is a pretty great Roy idea too. My experience is that Roy is pretty much never short on productive buttons to hit; he has options for just about every situation and they hit a lot harder than similar moves on other characters.

And yes, Roy's mobility is excellent; we tested his run speed to be almost exactly the same as Sheik's. Running around like Sheik throwing around that kind of a disjoint with a real array of options is very strong. I think Roy has a very bright future in this game. It doesn't hurt that Roy is really, really easy; I felt like I didn't have to think very hard to perform with this character.

---

Ryu has such odd dynamics. I feel like he too has pretty poor approach options, but once he's in, his footsies tools are probably the best in the game and he hits like a truck while also having several buttons that just kinda win if you guess right. I think some characters will run from him or zone him out, and that will be big trouble especially since almost all of his strong kill options at this time don't seem feasible to land on a very defensive opponent (his throws don't kill at 200% with high rage unless you're near the edge...) and he actually has a pretty tough time staying safe on block (though he has a few options for that, like fading well spaced bair or a few of his lower range grounded normals). However, not everyone will have easy answers like that, and Ryu is fundamentally dangerous enough to be "worth it" even though playing as him is not only giving yourself a huge execution barrier but also choosing to deal with a lot of bs. His projectile can't really be used to compete in zoning wars at all either, but it is a pretty nice poke especially the red fireball (as obnoxious as that input is, the move is pretty solid). I feel like Ryu will take a long time for us to really flesh out and understand in detail but that the core dynamic of "don't play footsies with him or else you lose, but definitely do try to lame him out as much as possible" is what we're looking at here. Ryu will also generate some serious salt from people who rush down all the time and don't use the full game to their advantage; if you willingly always approach Ryu and the Ryu has mastered all that he can do, it's hard for me to see how Ryu ever loses...
 

Skydra

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Marths aerial game is better. He has ACs. Roy does not. And Marth has better walk speed. They are basically the inverse of one another. Lucina is fan service we all know that.
As a Melee Marth main, Roy feels so much better than Marth. I mostly dropped Marth in this game because of the garbage endlag on all aerials and lack of combos in general. Roy still has to work hard for his combos, but he at least gets something other than falling Uair (and dthrow-Uair at very low percents). Granted, all this is from being a day 1 Roy, but he's shaping up to at least earn a spot as my secondary (which Marth was unable to do).

Autocancel Fair and Bair are nice on Marth, but Roy just has an actual combo game beyond scoring a rare falling Uair. Even though he gets zero autocancels from shorthop (meh) he has very little endlag compared to Marth. Recovery is worse I guess, but its a trade I'm willing to make.

Also, I love Roy's Up-B. Maybe its just VERY satisfying to score. Seems to be possible to do dthrow-Up-B at some percents if you read DI, and has a lot of kill power at the end.

Marths aerial game is better. He has ACs. Roy does not. And Marth has better walk speed. They are basically the inverse of one another. Lucina is fan service we all know that.
So Roy is stylish bruiser type who relies more on set-ups and grab confirms. Marth relies on pokes and patience. Both can excel at what they do. Marths jab does ALOT for him, ESPECIALLY with Crescent Slash. Sets up perfectly for it. Either first hit to grab then f-throw to CS or grab release to CS. Or both hits then you get a solid mix-up situation.[/quote]

Crescent Slash is good, sure. But I feel like the meta is leaning towards no customs at this point. Even with Crescent Slash, I'm feeling Roy over Marth, but maybe its just preference.

As for the other new characters, I get the feeling that Ryu has trouble approaching, though he seems REALLY good at close range. Definitely a threat, but even with Hadouken he might get camped out.

I didn't play competitive Brawl, so I don't know how Lucas was changed. In comparison to Smash 4 Ness, though, his recovery is so much better with the tether and vanilla PKT2. As far as neutral game goes, I'd leave it to someone who has more experience with the character, though I can say that he has really good dthrow combos.
 

Antonykun

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ah I see so she got hit by the nerf stick
Down throw doesn't get any true combos and its from that horrible frame 14 only 2 active hitbox grab
Mean while EBT is no longer the best Recovery in the game as villager just plummets with no warning should she run out of "fuel"
on the other hand Regular balloon trip has so much "fuel" that it is not affected to harshly by it
*grabs Roy Down throws and jabs only to find out it combos"
hello
 

LightLV

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He has short range for a swordsman. Roy's range looks like Toon Link's. If he didn't have to style with reverse-grip swings, he wouldn't be in this trouble.
I really feel like his range shortcomings are well balanced by his strength and speed in this case. He can lose to some characters on the ground but i think it's more likely he'll just clash with them, and honestly there aren't too many characters who should want to get in a fist fight with Roy. It's just not a fight worth trading.

Uair does 1% less, lost its sourspot, body hitbox which used to be able to hit confirm into Bair, and knockback was changed. Uair also went from being a frame 10 hit to 7 if A2's right.
The damage nerf does lower the knockback but i don't think 1% is enough to downgrade it from killmove status. Honestly i'd take the frame buff over the damage nerf. Speedy aerials are an asset.

When you say it lost its sourspot, do you mean he does set damage in all locations, or that he simply lost that hitbox? Again, i'd take that 1% nerf gladly over a quality of life change like that.

Blaster does not need to cover about a 2/3's of Final Destination, it does not need to rapid fire, and nor does it need to be able to auto-cancel. Look at Ryu's Hadouken, Rosalina's Shooting Star Bit, Luigi's Fireball, or Fox's Impact Blaster. None of them can be fired repeatedly like Falco's, but they're good zoning tools unlike Falco's. Luigi's Fireball only covers like 1/3 of Final Destination, but the low end lag, the safety is what makes it so strong. Hell, look at Sheik's single Needle which does 1%, but has hitstun and low end lag. The only reason a projectile needs to fire rapidly is if they do no knockback like Fox's default Blaster or little to no knockback like Mega Man's lemons. You could give Falco Fox's Impact Blaster, tweak the knockback, and he'd have a good if not decent zoning game.
Falco's projectile game really just feels like an overcompensating nerf for what it gave him in Melee and Brawl. The loss of frame cancel and no longer being able to use it for approach is understandable, but getting punished for shooting someone with it because the recovery is so bad is just ridiculous.
 
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Rich Homie Quan

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I don't really view Roy as a swordsman tbh. Just a dude with long ass arms, with good priority. When I play Roy, I'm going all the way in to hit with the hilt. There's some massive risk/reward there but I think it's better than the spaced swordsman mindset is.

At least, that's what makes Roy good imo
 

LightLV

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The thing is, his spacing is really, really, really good. His normals are very fast and his mobility is great, and while he may not be Link or Marth, he's still using a sword.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Ryu is basically get in and do ridiculous damage and kill people. He's a very solid character, very SF-esque in that regard. Keep in mind his good footsies (like Weak Dtilt) also true combo into his killing SRK which is bad news. He feels pretty rewarding, and as someone who has his inputs down pat, Shakunetsu is easily a REALLY good projectile against most chars who can't camp Ryu. 5 hits is a nice boon on a projectile.

Also as far as approach goes I agree it's a bit underwhelming but I think it's not as bad as it could be. Ryu does have TWO buttons that cross up shields (Nair and Fair, just like in SF).
 
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