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I am criticizing the fact that things weren't taken care of in the way that would've been much better for the metagame.
So basically, what you're saying is that Lucas got nerfed from Brawl and suffers from Sm4sh's mechanics?
Roy's Side Smash always did 20% in Melee and in Smash 4 if you hit with the base. It's just a thing about him like how Marth's tipper Side Smash was always powerful, but in Smash 4, it's even more powerful.
At least she didn't get nerfed or had her game plan changed like Falco's almost per patch.
Should I be surprised? I've always said that matchup is favorable for Ganon. Though no vids doesn't tell me a lot.
I think you're underestimating N-air. The fact the move connects a lot more consistently really improves Falco's entire gameplan noticeably. Much better oos, for covering approaches/rolls, juggles, EDGEGUARDS ESPECIALLY THIS MOVE CAN KILL, and it's still a 3 frame move. 3 frame aerial that does 11% seriously. Especially nice now that it always sends your opponent forwards meaning D-throw N-air -> other juggle followups is waaay easier.
I wasn't underestimating his Nair. It was always a good move in Brawl and Smash 4, but now it just connects better. Back then, you could RAR it to connect better for some reason, now it connects whenever. Fair is more notable since SDI wrecked it in Brawl, but Falco's Nair in Brawl functioned well and in Smash 4 without autolink angles, but not that it does, it's just more consistent. Zelda's Nair has autolink angles, does 11% in the front and 7% in the back - it hits weird -, is disjointed, and it's a frame 6 move with a lot of range. Hell, it even kills at similar percents as Falco's except Zelda's began with autolink angles, is disjointed, and more range.
I don't think the comparison is that fair. Furthermore I don't think Ganon's N-air connecting all the time would really change/improve the core utility by much. It would still just mostly be his general spacing/gtfo move.
I kind of feel like Falco deserves a higher spot than Marth even before the patch, which puts him by default higher than Lucina. Ike was never a bad character, he just has nothing exceptional, and his risks easily offset whatever strongpoints he has. Zelda is just....ugh.
The thing is, Roy and Marth were a bit different in melee. Their range was ridiculous, and while Roy would EASILY murder you early with a well-placed hit, Marth's range + tipper just outclassed that advantage too much. Roy needed to be in near grab range to be effective while Marth could tipper you from roll distance away. Now, Marth's range isn't anything even noteworthy, his tipper is still really strong but you don't get the same advantage out of it that you did before because it's way closer to him. Not to mention the loss of shieldstun and shieldpush near the edge, Marth's pressure is a shell of what it used to be.
Not that much different from Marth's, i think? Maybe alot more ground focused? Roy's normals dont cover much distance but they come out very fast, protect his hurtbox and aren't really worth trading against. And his grab is actually worth fearing. I dont think his aerial attacks are quite as good for poking but his movement speed in the air and on the ground are superior i'd say. His dash attack actually kills.
Dude. Ganondorf's Nair does 12% with the first hit and 9% for the second if both clean. Otherwise, it'll do 7% for the first hit and 5% for the second hit late. If it connected consistently, then Ganondorf would be doing 21% per Nair. Do you know how insane that would be? A frame 7 hit connecting into 21% would be amazing and hella broken.
Yes, but even before, Falco could connect Nair well. Now, it's less of a gamble to use a good option and now just simply a good option. Edgeguarding-wise, even if people fell out, you've just stalled their momentum like with Fair, but with a quicker move or if it hits with the weak hit, a gimp. Even before, Falco was able to use Nair to stage spike and gimp people with Nair, but Fair's properties made it much safer compared to Nair. Now, Falco has a quicker Fair and a more reliable Nair. He can use whatever the hell he wants to edgeguard now. Out of shield, Falco can do a more reliable Nair, maybe Fair because it's quicker - still unconfirmed by how quick -, Bair if people are behind him, maybe Uair, jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Dtilt, Up Smash, Down Smash, and grab. This patch just made Nair more reliable and Fair and Uair quicker OOS options. Still, the main issue with Nair is range and coverage since it doesn't cover the entire body of Falco while Fair covers like his head to waist. For edgeguarding, he still needs to be on point and in someone's face.
If only Ken was playable so people could ask: "HOW DO KEN?!"
I meant as in characters strictly getting buffs while Falco was nerfed, buffed, and changed in game plan.
Firstoff, you never exactly specified how Ganon's N-air would connect consistently in the first place. It would require drastic reworks to the knockback or frames of the move. Depending on how you did it, the changes would not automatically be strict buffs for Ganon's N-air.Dude. Ganondorf's Nair does 12% with the first hit and 9% for the second if both clean. Otherwise, it'll do 7% for the first hit and 5% for the second hit late. If it connected consistently, then Ganondorf would be doing 21% per Nair. Do you know how insane that would be? A frame 7 hit connecting into 21% would be amazing and hella broken.
Yes, but even before, Falco could connect Nair well. Now, it's less of a gamble to use a good option and now just simply a good option. Edgeguarding-wise, even if people fell out, you've just stalled their momentum like with Fair, but with a quicker move or if it hits with the weak hit, a gimp. Even before, Falco was able to use Nair to stage spike and gimp people with Nair, but Fair's properties made it much safer compared to Nair. Now, Falco has a quicker Fair and a more reliable Nair. He can use whatever the hell he wants to edgeguard now. Out of shield, Falco can do a more reliable Nair, maybe Fair because it's quicker - still unconfirmed by how quick -, Bair if people are behind him, maybe Uair, jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Dtilt, Up Smash, Down Smash, and grab. This patch just made Nair more reliable and Fair and Uair quicker OOS options. Still, the main issue with Nair is range and coverage since it doesn't cover the entire body of Falco while Fair covers like his head to waist. For edgeguarding, he still needs to be on point and in someone's face.
If only Ken was playable so people could ask: "HOW DO KEN?!"
I meant as in characters strictly getting buffs while Falco was nerfed, buffed, and changed in game plan.
I hear his Fair got faster, and his Nair has a more reliable trajectory.
Well, it's a strong move on a slower character. If Sheik had Ganondorf's Bair, people would be raging.
Do you mean Falco would Nair while sliding along the stage's ledge? Not a lot of characters tend to hug the stage like that unless they're someone like Ike, Captain Falcon, or Sonic. Wait, shouldn't Zelda, Pit, and Palutena be able to do this as well? Pikachu can from what I remember. Even then, Nair could have done that prior to the patch. Maybe less consistently and Fair still has a large enough hitbox to edgeguard like that on certain characters...
Hm, this would be an interesting identity. Something to play around with more.
wait how did she get nerfed?
Uair being more of a low knockback juggle instead of high knockback juggle does change his Uair chase game. Faster Uair and Fair would lead to adjustments to timing and Nair being a more reliable move means people will learn to implement it more and into edgeguarding.
Funny how Falco has the best "Shine" in the game. Default for spacing and Reflector Void for kills and spacing.
Well, people did note his janky edgeguard game in the beginning when Fair spikes where a thing and after that, people noted his strong ability to go deep off-stage which probably lead to Distant Fire Bird being an invested pick over Fast Fire Bird. The main issue was that Fair wasn't that fast, Dair's slow (and still slow), and Nair wasn't reliable. Things then lead to figuring out about how to manipulate his Falco Phantasm, how hit stun prevents people from grabbing the ledge making precise lasers able to gimp, and ledge trumping. Now, if things can be confirmed, a faster Fair, more reliable Nair, his Bair, Blaster for gimping, Explosive Blaster for trapping, Falco Phantasm and Dair for spiking, and ledge trumping makes him a dangerous edgeguarder.
Fuel regen rate is now non-trivial. Try flying around too much rapidly.
From the patch thread
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His sword's sweetspot is well over half the blade, so he does lots of damage very reliably and kills fairly easily
If Falco jumps out and hits you with nearly anything while you're trying to recover, you die. I think this has always been a strongpoint for him. The issue here i think is the risk Falco has to put himself in to do this, unlike someone like Falcon who can just Dair you because the hitbox is hilarious or utilt you because why not.
Wait, what? How did this happen?
Reflector is good. His lasers are dreadful, for how unsafe they are i feel like they should do about 3% more damage. His specials are mostly just lacking in the sense that you wont be KOing anyone with them.Funny how Falco has the best "Shine" in the game. Default for spacing and Reflector Void for kills and spacing.
He has short range for a swordsman. Roy's range looks like Toon Link's. If he didn't have to style with reverse-grip swings, he wouldn't be in this trouble.
Yeah, he had to throw out an unreliable, but quick frame 3 Nair, try to kill or stage spike with a short-ranged frame 4 Bair, go for a read with a frame 16 Dair and frame 18 Falco Phantasm spike, be a crack-shot with Blaster, or throw out a lingering hitbox with a frame 12 Fair.
Uair does 1% less, lost its sourspot, body hitbox which used to be able to hit confirm into Bair, and knockback was changed. Uair also went from being a frame 10 hit to 7 if A2's right.
Blaster does not need to cover about a 2/3's of Final Destination, it does not need to rapid fire, and nor does it need to be able to auto-cancel. Look at Ryu's Hadouken, Rosalina's Shooting Star Bit, Luigi's Fireball, or Fox's Impact Blaster. None of them can be fired repeatedly like Falco's, but they're good zoning tools unlike Falco's. Luigi's Fireball only covers like 1/3 of Final Destination, but the low end lag, the safety is what makes it so strong. Hell, look at Sheik's single Needle which does 1%, but has hitstun and low end lag. The only reason a projectile needs to fire rapidly is if they do no knockback like Fox's default Blaster or little to no knockback like Mega Man's lemons. You could give Falco Fox's Impact Blaster, tweak the knockback, and he'd have a good if not decent zoning game.
ah I see so she got hit by the nerf stickFrom the patch thread
Villager
- Balloon Trip Mechanics altered to a fuel system similar to ROB, hurting consecutive usages
- Down Throw Damage 4.5%-> 6%
It's not embarrassing. Ryu can have a difficult time killing because all of his kill moves have sweetspots except for B-air I believe.
Lucas has a lot of moves that are actually pretty safe on block, and fair is one of them (spaced fsmash and dsmash in general are often safe too). The problem is that if you try to approach with fair you're really free to anti-air. The move isn't slow but it isn't blinding fast, the hitboxes are kinda small (the disjoint is a lot less helpful than it looks), and Lucas isn't exceptionally mobile. I was using fair some as a mix-up from zairs (if it hits it does something like 8% which is a lot for Lucas!). If his opponent just hangs back and boxes him out, I really don't see Lucas as having any kind of good options other than zair (which is ridiculous but against an opponent fighting back almost never leads to damage). If Lucas had a real grab he could work around so much of this, but his grab is one of the worst in the game which is kinda a big problem. Dash attack is kinda good in some ways but starts up slower than a typical dash attack as well, just makes a hard job harder...is zair really
As a Melee Marth main, Roy feels so much better than Marth. I mostly dropped Marth in this game because of the garbage endlag on all aerials and lack of combos in general. Roy still has to work hard for his combos, but he at least gets something other than falling Uair (and dthrow-Uair at very low percents). Granted, all this is from being a day 1 Roy, but he's shaping up to at least earn a spot as my secondary (which Marth was unable to do).
So Roy is stylish bruiser type who relies more on set-ups and grab confirms. Marth relies on pokes and patience. Both can excel at what they do. Marths jab does ALOT for him, ESPECIALLY with Crescent Slash. Sets up perfectly for it. Either first hit to grab then f-throw to CS or grab release to CS. Or both hits then you get a solid mix-up situation.[/quote]
*grabs Roy Down throws and jabs only to find out it combos"
I really feel like his range shortcomings are well balanced by his strength and speed in this case. He can lose to some characters on the ground but i think it's more likely he'll just clash with them, and honestly there aren't too many characters who should want to get in a fist fight with Roy. It's just not a fight worth trading.
The damage nerf does lower the knockback but i don't think 1% is enough to downgrade it from killmove status. Honestly i'd take the frame buff over the damage nerf. Speedy aerials are an asset.
Falco's projectile game really just feels like an overcompensating nerf for what it gave him in Melee and Brawl. The loss of frame cancel and no longer being able to use it for approach is understandable, but getting punished for shooting someone with it because the recovery is so bad is just ridiculous.
