Character Competitive Impressions

[Raoh]

I also think Captain Falcon is grossly overrated, he's definitely getting fan votes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It never felt like that strong of a kill throw for me...
However, if it doesn't kill, it's still great for setting up arrow gimps

When it's stronger than basically all the other F-throws in the game except Dark Pit's and KOs at percents not unlike some of the slightly weaker B-throws, I'd say it's pretty undervalued as a KO move especially since there's a lot more ways to aggressively position a F-throw than a B-throw that give your opponent less time to react (unless you're Sonic, I guess).

Also arrow gimps are usually pretty gimmicky. Most of the time they'll probably get airdodged, meaning they're only really good if you're in a position/matchup to also trap a low recovery. Arrows are better for juggles imo.

 

[Nu~]

When it's stronger than basically all the other F-throws in the game except Dark Pit's and KOs at percents not unlike some of the slightly weaker B-throws, I'd say it's pretty undervalued as a KO move especially since there's a lot more ways to aggressively position a F-throw than a B-throw that give your opponent less time to react (unless you're Sonic, I guess).

Also arrow gimps are usually pretty gimmicky. Most of the time they'll probably get airdodged, meaning they're only really good if you're in a position/matchup to also trap a low recovery. Arrows are better for juggles imo.

I normally like to run off the stage, shoot at an opponent who recovers horizontally or low, and pressure them into air dodging.
Now the guiding bow is perfect for this since you can follow closer behind your arrows

 

[NachoOfCheese]

When it's stronger than basically all the other F-throws in the game except Dark Pit's and KOs at percents not unlike some of the slightly weaker B-throws, I'd say it's pretty undervalued as a KO move especially since there's a lot more ways to aggressively position a F-throw than a B-throw that give your opponent less time to react (unless you're Sonic, I guess).

Also arrow gimps are usually pretty gimmicky. Most of the time they'll probably get airdodged, meaning they're only really good if you're in a position/matchup to also trap a low recovery. Arrows are better for juggles imo.

?

 

[Thinkaman]

Controversial post time!

My game design pet peeve is the faux-profound amateur insight of "the best way to balance a game is to make everyone overpowered!" My personal hell is listening to that sentence on loop.

We achieve unique characters by establishing a unique combination of strengths and weaknesses. For this to work, the strengths have to be an appropriate magnitude greater than the weaknesses.

• If we have too little of a magnitude difference, everyone feels the same and the game is bland.
• If we have too great of a magnitude difference, everyone becomes solely defined by their strengths. The matchups become single-minded and one-dimensional, based exclusively on extreme strengths at the exclusion of everything else.

This manifests in a form of populist feel-good bullcrap that even I'm guilty of at times:

"I think they should buff low-tiers rather than nerf high-tiers!"

Politicians everywhere weep for joy at this rose-scented manure; playing to emotional character loyalty and factionalism ahead of overall game health.

This notion works because it positions against a strawman with a grain of truth. Yes, it would indeed be bad for the game to balance based on stripping high-tiers of their strengths and normalizing them--making everyone the same. But this is a very narrow outlook that approaches balance from a lynch mob mentality, where the only way to nerf Ness is to neuter b-throw.



In reality, there is some ideal target level of magnitude between strengths and weaknesses that characters should have. It can't be a mindless race-to-the-top anymore than it can be a race-to-the-bottom. The question isn't "nerfs or buffs"; the question is "Where's the target?"

The good news is, even if I think the target is all the way down at current Villager and you think the target is all the way up at current Sheik, we don't actually disagree all that much. People who think we should have balanced towards previous Diddy (or Brawl MK, or Melee Fox) are bonkers; we don't want a game of old Diddy uairs.



If it were up to me, I'd probably shave the top tiers in Smash 4 to a slightly lower haircut than most people--probably focused exclusively on safety and early KO potential. Low-tiers I'd address primarily though wider auto-cancel windows in most cases, which is the most reliable way to open up new options. (TBQH, Zelda and Mewtwo are probably the only Smash 4 character who cannot be balanced exclusively through minor hitbox tweaks and AC windows.)

But lets stop demonizing nerfs. Yes, scrubs calling for nerfs to whatever just beat them are annoying--but lets not let annoyance push us into adopting foolish principles.

 

[A2ZOMG]

?

Hmm their Fthrows kill at similar percents. It works better for Pit who has a better ground game and dashgrab though.

 

[Firefoxx]

Its very easy to tell that most Falcons don't know how to play the character because most Falcon dittos don't get damn close to timing out.

 

[Thinkaman]

Its very easy to tell that most Falcons don't know how to play the character because most Falcon dittos don't get damn close to timing out.

Falcon's dash grab threatens an insane range and is faster than human reaction time. Falcon's moveset is decently equipped to punish his own jab, as well as spot-dodge. Falcon dittos should not time out, especially with absurd uair chains abbreviating stock length.

 

[Smog Frog]

what needs to be changed about and to balance them? just fix character attributes in the case of ? that seems to be the main thing holding him back.

 

[Ulevo]

what needs to be changed about and to balance them? just fix character attributes in the case of ? that seems to be the main thing holding him back.

Define attributes for me.

 

[wedl!!]

in the case of , the best way to fix him is to work on his attributes. give him a cheeseburger diet, so to speak.

you have to make the character actually have a functioning kit first. having one of the worst advantaged states in the game due to really terrible hitboxes (3 sweetspot aerials???), no mobility, tall/light, etc. her design is basically if you took the properties of several different characters and threw them into a pot haphazardly, came out with a misshapen result, and stuck with it.

 

[Luco]

The Mii moves aren't variants of their specials...they're completely different moves. The Mii specials move-set is primarily a collection of options from across the cast. Shotput isn't a variation of Uppercut, which certainly isn't a variant of flaming kick.

Theres a clear difference between the options of any mii special, and Kirbys Hammer customs all being 3 types of slow attack hammers with different properties.

The Mii moveset is customizeable, the entire character is. It's a simplified "create a character" option.

I totally agree, however my point was more in regards to miis and Palutena. You know...

Jump Glide isn't a variant of Warp, and lightweight isn't a variant of counter.

The point I think that was most relevant here was that the miis can use their "customs" even in customs off.

 

[Smog Frog]

Define attributes for me.

attributes are like fall speed, weight, run speed, air speed, friction, etc

attributes(tall, light, floaty, poor traction) are all crippling to an otherwise solid design.

 

[Thinkaman]

what needs to be changed about and to balance them? just fix character attributes in the case of ? that seems to be the main thing holding him back.

Mewtwo wouldn't be hard to balance, it's just that hitboxes and AC windows are a dead end because those categories are already cranked to 11 on him.

I'm skeptical of the people who say "just increase his weight"--but it might really be that simple.

Just one less frame on Confusion would go a loooong way though. It would honestly be easy to turn any of his moves into absurd territory with timing changes, since his hitboxes are already so crazy.

He's just a glass cannon with plenty of cannon, but a bit too much glass.


Zelda, on the other hand, has more structural problems and is a hard nut to crack. She's just an entire character designed exclusively around FFAs (and teams); I think we constantly overlook just how insane Zelda is outside of 1v1. Reflector, invincibility, get-out-of-jail-free, recovery, OoS threat... And if you were to make a list of the best 10 "killstealing" moves in the game, Zelda has half of them.

Zelda's issue is that she's rigid; she has few offensive options in any situation (often one, which doesn't work in a fighting game), has pitiful pressure/neutral, and just outright asserts zero control over any 1v1 matchup.


So what do we do? I don't think Din's is workable into any form of 1v1 solution (not without ruining FFAs), but Phantom might be. Phantom is really close to being a fantastic move, at least Phantom Strike in particular. It beats a lot of stuff, and is really safe on both block and dodge when charged. If that was the end of the story, this would be exactly the sort of tool Zelda's flawed neutral game needs... But the thing that undermines the move is that the opponent can jump over it on reaction to always punish Zelda.

The ability to hold Phantom charge would be stupidly broken, probably the best move in the game unless you nerfed the release frame data to compensate; it's also not really necessary to solve her problem. However, just the ability to simply cancel charge with defensive actions (a la Deep Breathing) would make the move very compelling--especially on a character with such decent OoS and grab rewards.

I think this alone would put Zelda in a position where modest changes could make her get by okay in 1v1.

 

[Firefoxx]

Falcon's dash grab threatens an insane range and is faster than human reaction time. Falcon's moveset is decently equipped to punish his own jab, as well as spot-dodge. Falcon dittos should not time out, especially with absurd uair chains abbreviating stock length.

Why the hell would you ever approach in this match-up? Approaching, or committing to anything really, is going to get you blown up.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why the hell would you ever approach in this match-up? Approaching, or committing to anything really, is going to get you blown up.

I just said--dash grab is faster than human reaction time.

If we just stand there staring at each other, the first person to dash grab wins. (Or, the first person to flinch and spot-dodge prematurely loses)

 

[Smog Frog]

doesnt holding beat dashgrab?

 

[Ulevo]

attributes are like fall speed, weight, run speed, air speed, friction, etc

attributes(tall, light, floaty, poor traction) are all crippling to an otherwise solid design.

Mewtwo needs a lot more help than just adjusting attributes.

 

[Thinkaman]

doesnt holding beat dashgrab?

Yes, but Falcon's kit can answer his own jab pretty decently. D-tilt was always the most reliable option.

The key is that in the Falcon ditto, the reward for grab is astronomical and the reward for a glancing jab (that can't convert to a grab) is meh.

Mewtwo needs a lot more help than just adjusting attributes.

I mean, if Mewtwo had Bowser's weight he'd probably be top 10? His moveset is pretty workable; Shadow Ball is great, u-throw is great, d-tilt is great, fair is solid, u-smash is solid, bair is solid, nair is solid, Confusion is functional, and his hard read KO options are all tuned pretty aggressively.

It's just that killing at 100% doesn't matter much when you die at 80%.

 

[Firefoxx]

doesnt holding beat dashgrab?

Welp I was just labbing this out to be 100% sure and holding A doesn't always trade or beat dash grab so nevermind on all of that this matchup is still pure nonsense.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Of all the characters in this game Mewtwo is one of the most fun to watch imo. Maybe it's just because the games are always so fast given his weight and KO power off a read.

 

[Thinkaman]

Welp I was just labbing this out to be 100% sure and holding A doesn't always trade or beat dash grab so nevermind on all of that this matchup is still pure nonsense.

Heh; Falcon ditto was one of my absolute favorite matchups in Brawl and still a fond one in Smash 4; in 2009 I was playing about 15 Falcon dittos a day, and it's still at least ~1-2% of my Smash 4 games.

I've probably won over 100 Falcon ditto money matches at various events. </brag> (Ally was the only person who ever beat me consistently in them) I don't play Falcon much outside the ditto though, in either game.


Often my thoughts and opinions on Falcon are very skewed because my experience is so focused on the ditto...

Against Falcon, even though I can pretty much always win against anyone in my area(s) by opting into the ditto, I actually have an easier time as Little Mac. I'd almost consider it the easiest Little Mac matchup... Little Mac jab actually does beat Falcon dash grab, as well as Falcon jab.

 

[busken]

I'm just waiting for this meta to straighten out. So we can have official rules and opinions on characters are pretty sensible and largely agreed with. How long did it take for brawl's meta to develop a standard?

 

[Firefoxx]

Heh; Falcon ditto was one of my absolute favorite matchups in Brawl and still a fond one in Smash 4; in 2009 I was playing about 15 Falcon dittos a day, and it's still at least ~1-2% of my Smash 4 games.

I've probably won over 100 Falcon ditto money matches at various events. </brag> (Ally was the only person who ever beat me consistently in them) I don't play Falcon much outside the ditto though, in either game.


Often my thoughts and opinions on Falcon are very skewed because my experience is so focused on the ditto...

Against Falcon, even though I can virtually always win by opting into the ditto, I actually have an easier time as Little Mac. I'd almost consider it the easiest Little Mac matchup...

And I tend to opt away from the ditto (though I had been playing it more when I thought I had figured it out).

If the Mac doesn't just blindly run at my shield, I often times find myself at a loss in that matchup. Its not a fun one for Falcon, thats for sure.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm just waiting for this meta to straighten out. So we can have official rules and opinions on characters are pretty sensible and largely agreed with. How long did it take for brawl's meta to develop a standard?

For Brawl, people seemed to reach a vague consensus about 3 months after release.

(Of Smash 4)

 

[Ritronaut]

Less discussion based but can you please list more than just the top 3?! I would like to see how certain characters ranked in each topic, and showing only the first 3 hides the the results of how 50 other characters placed. Please put more than just the top 3.

 

[PUK]

Zelda, on the other hand, has more structural problems and is a hard nut to crack. She's just an entire character designed exclusively around FFAs (and teams); I think we constantly overlook just how insane Zelda is outside of 1v1. Reflector, invincibility, get-out-of-jail-free, recovery, OoS threat... And if you were to make a list of the best 10 "killstealing" moves in the game, Zelda has half of them.

Zelda's issue is that she's rigid; she has few offensive options in any situation (often one, which doesn't work in a fighting game), has pitiful pressure/neutral, and just outright asserts zero control over any 1v1 matchup.


So what do we do? I don't think Din's is workable into any form of 1v1 solution (not without ruining FFAs), but Phantom might be. Phantom is really close to being a fantastic move, at least Phantom Strike in particular. It beats a lot of stuff, and is really safe on both block and dodge when charged. If that was the end of the story, this would be exactly the sort of tool Zelda's flawed neutral game needs... But the thing that undermines the move is that the opponent can jump over it on reaction to always punish Zelda.

The ability to hold Phantom charge would be stupidly broken, probably the best move in the game unless you nerfed the release frame data to compensate; it's also not really necessary to solve her problem. However, just the ability to simply cancel charge with defensive actions (a la Deep Breathing) would make the move very compelling--especially on a character with such decent OoS and grab rewards.

I think this alone would put Zelda in a position where modest changes could make her get by okay in 1v1.

another, and more possible buff would be an AC Window on Nair. Zelda Nair is really good, but it AC only if buffered, and it's unusable as an offensive option, combo starter or what else. It's particularly crippling when no other aerial gives space pressure.
A safe on shield and on whiff aerial would give her what she wants: a tool to pressure, to gain control of more stage, to force the opponent to react.
Also more reward on LK sweetspot. It should kill Mario at 60% center stage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also more reward on LK sweetspot. It should kill Mario at 60% center stage.

Isn't B-Air Frame 6? That will never be okay.

 

[NextPain]

Another game another low tier samus

Main's:
Secondary's:

 

[PUK]

Isn't B-Air Frame 6? That will never be okay.

But Bair is not hélicoptère kick, it's need precise spacing, timing, while having zeld's mobility.

 

[TriTails]

Isn't B-Air Frame 6? That will never be okay.

Not when it's pretty hard to land without lots of practice.

 

[Ffamran]

Isn't B-Air Frame 6? That will never be okay.

It has 25 frames of landing lag which is basically like screwing up Captain Falcon, Falco, Ike, and Ganondorf's Dairs.

 

[busken]

It has 25 frames of landing lag which is basically like screwing up Captain Falcon, Falco, Ike, and Ganondorf's Dairs.

Go back to your old avatar nerd. lol jk

 

[NextPain]

Okay, curiosity, why is Ness that high? I feel he's good, yeah, but not middle of A good.

has tones of killing moves and he has easy bread and butter combos that can get percent super easy in my opinion I think he is the best character in the game. He is also easy to pick up.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

I'm gonna start using Smashboards more than the Subreddit of /r/SmashBros when I wanna talk competitive..obvious reasons.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

I also think Captain Falcon is grossly overrated, he's definitely getting fan votes.

It is Reddit after all..

 

[warriorman222]

has tones of killing moves and he has easy bread and butter combos that can get percent super easy in my opinion I think he is the best character in the game. He is also easy to pick up.

And when you lose to a ton of top tiers, Including all 3 characters viewed as the top 3, you probably aren't the best character. It's mainly because he has exactly 1 reliable kill move on the ground, and the fact that you're automatically dead offstage against an ambitious edgeguarder or any Villager/Rosalina. And most top tiers have great edgeguarding games. In short, Ness destroys the low tiers but is destroyed by the top tiers, which is why he is so low.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Can dr.mario compete at high level play with his customs?

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

Can dr.mario compete at high level play with his customs?

Honestly I was hoping so but even with his Customs that help his recovery. Someone at High level play will easily be able to gimp him. Even though his Custom Up B's help his recovery. The lack of Cape Stalling still makes him an easy killable character.

I mean I personally think he's got sort of a chance..but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

[Thinkaman]

Can dr.mario compete at high level play with his customs?

I used to think Doc benefited more from customs, then Mario, and recently back to Doc again.

Even though pills are already better than fireballs (so fast pills is more of a sacrifice), fast pills matter much more to doc in the matchups that need them due to his speed vulnerability. I don't think Mario has to resort of the inferior-but-sometimes-necessary fast fireballs in as many matchups as Doc.

The capes don't matter much; default cape is heavily underrated on both characters relative to the other options. You could make the argument that Thunder Cape is a better upgrade on either, but it doesn't matter much. (Doc's is stronger, Mario has the mobility to leverage it more)

Default doc up-b is way better than Mario's. Doc's up-b 3 is way better than Mario's. It's hard to compare what each upgrade means to them comparatively, but it's clearly a more significant subject to Doc. Personally, I'd take the default in every matchup as both--but I can understand the appeal of "Ganon-mode" up-b 3. (Doc default up-b is one of the best moves in the entire game, full stop.) If you use the recovery-only version of up-b on either character, you are a fool.

The recovery boosting tornado doesn't solve all of doc's recovery issues, but it helps him more than either FLUDD upgrade.


Doc's options with customs are above average and edge him closer to the mean, but aren't a revolution. Whether or not they make him "viable" depends on the definition used.