Character Competitive Impressions

[PokemonyeWest]

Most rapid jab finishers have silly hitboxes to prevent them from whiffing off a successful hit. With that said, Captain Falcon's rapid jab finisher is probably the silliest.

I've been smacked by Kirby's rapid jab ender from the other end of the screen

 

[TriTails]

How exactly Luigi is Pika's worst MU?

And talking about my character, I've just noticed. Out of top and high tiers as of now, his mobility is the worst.

Not saying he is top tier (Even if you consider him as one. I don't), but it's kinda amazing on how a not-zoning-focused slow character can go in a game where mobility is almost everything.

That 3:7 against Mega though...

Speaking ofMega, has anyone noticed on how annoying his lemons are? Sure, people like ZSS, Greninja, and Falcon can just say **** it, but I feel Mega trashes on characters with slow airspeed (Kirby and below), and screws most character's approaches. His lemons are basically a better Falco Blaster outside of damage and range and can be used as an amazing pressure tool. They are also positive on shield and can be used while walking.

But maybe I'm seeing it from Luigi's perspective with his air speed. But i'm curious if any of you all ever felt the same way.

 

[Nu~]

How exactly Luigi is Pika's worst MU?

And talking about my character, I've just noticed. Out of top and high tiers as of now, his mobility is the worst.

Not saying he is top tier (Even if you consider him as one. I don't), but it's kinda amazing on how a not-zoning-focused slow character can go in a game where mobility is almost everything.

That 3:7 against Mega though...

Speaking ofMega, has anyone noticed on how annoying his lemons are? Sure, people like ZSS, Greninja, and Falcon can just say **** it, but I feel Mega trashes on characters with slow airspeed (Kirby and below), and screws most character's approaches. His lemons are basically a better Falco Blaster outside of damage and range and can be used as an amazing pressure tool. They are also positive on shield and can be used while walking.

But maybe I'm seeing it from Luigi's perspective with his air speed. But i'm curious if any of you all ever felt the same way.

I mean, 4 fruits and launched hydrants eat pellets for breakfast sooo...
Even Pac's Nuetral air beats out 3 pellets for some reason.

When I play pit however, they do get a bit annoying. But I never bring pit to that matchup anyway

 

[Ulevo]

People are comparing Meta Knight to Falcon, and outside of their dash grab, they have essentially no other similarities.

@ Shaya , Meta Knights match ups are not that polarizing actually. They're pretty much almost all in the realm of 4:6-6:4, a lot of them being straight up 5:5.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I noticed that Meta Knight doesn't fare horribly against Rosalina, is this true?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, 4 fruits and launched hydrants eat pellets for breakfast sooo...
Even Pac's Nuetral air beats out 3 pellets for some reason.

When I play pit however, they do get a bit annoying. But I never bring pit to that matchup anyway

What about when N-Air catches your fruit AND shoots you?

In my experience, Mega Man seems to **** on Pac-Man.

 

[bc1910]

MK and Falcon's dash attacks are also similar in terms of speed, reward and safety. DA and dashgrab are the only two similarities, but since they're both such big parts of both characters' gameplans, it makes the two seem more similar than they really are.

 

[AvariceX]

I noticed that Meta Knight doesn't fare horribly against Rosalina, is this true?

I've been using MK in tourney recently and doing better against Rosa than I do with Diddy. I think MK slightly beats Rosalina. It helps that MK up-throw on Rosa anywhere near Luma throws Luma way off stage. She's really easy to trap with Tornado too.

 

[Nu~]

What about when N-Air catches your fruit AND shoots you?

In my experience, Mega Man seems to **** on Pac-Man.

Then mega man literally can't do ****.
He lost his ability to shoot with an item in his hand last patch, so he just sits there like an idiot trying to camp out a pac man with metal blade. Tell me what a mega man does when his grounded lemons can't shoot over a grounded side B pellet? Or when I steal his metal blade with all 8 fruits in check?

Mega man loses this matchup hard.

 

[Ulevo]

I noticed that Meta Knight doesn't fare horribly against Rosalina, is this true?

Some Meta Knights would say its 6:4 in Meta Knights favor. I am not convinced, but the consensus is a slight advantage to him.

MK and Falcon's dash attacks are also similar in terms of speed, reward and safety. DA and dashgrab are the only two similarities, but since they're both such big parts of both characters' gameplans, it makes the two seem more similar than they really are.

If I shield Falcon's dash attack, he eats a punish. If I shield Meta Knights dash attack, I have to first anticipate the cross up mix up in order to get a proper punish. I would say this makes Meta Knight's much safer than Falcon's.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I found that as it's extremely easy to get rid of 's Luma and separate her from them. Side B is also really effective against her, and so is Tornado. That match I played made me more interessted in Meta Knight to, which is good cause I needed more characters to play as.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Then mega man literally can't do ****.
He lost his ability to shoot with an item in his hand so he just sits there like an idiot trying to camp out a pac man with metal blade. Tell me what a mega man does when his lemons can't shoot over a grounded side B pellet? Or when I steal his metal blade with all 8 fruits in check?

Mega man loses this matchup hard.

You can Z-Drop and catch it with N-Air, as every other character can do. N-Air is generally a more superior option than Jab/F-Tilt, and he can do the second and third shot on the ground if he wants.

 

[Nu~]

You can Z-Drop and catch it with N-Air, as every other character can do. N-Air is generally a more superior option than Jab/F-Tilt, and he can do the second and third shot on the ground if he wants.

If he wants to keep the game state in Nuetral like that, then we can heal off of his lemon spam. Side B blocks all three shots and heals 2%. The more he stalls, the more we heal so it's a losing battle for him. Even then, if mega has to z drop every time he wants to shoot, we have plenty of time to get in and Nair him off of our fruit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Z-Drop takes basically no extra time. If you think it's as simple as reacting to pellets with Forward-B with you suffering no repercussion for it, it's hard to believe that you've ever fought a Mega Man with any concept of spacing. There's no point in having this conversation.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How exactly Luigi is Pika's worst MU?

I actually used to believe this. Then I remembered one important mantra: "Luigi can't approach", based my entire gameplan on that, and went from getting 3-stocked by the best German Luigi to beating him solidly. Run away, throw out thunder jolts, abuse his abysmal air movement, and the moment you get an opening, get him offstage and gimp him. Sure, Luigi gets a ton of reward off getting in, and it's a pain to work back from that, but he shouldn't be catching you. Camp that smashville platform all day, son.

Also, are we talking about chars that just need little buffs? Ganon. Make his run or his dashgrab not quite so dismal, or at least give him a decent kill throw. God, it's like he's trying to grab you using T-Rex arms or something.

 

[Nu~]

Z-Drop takes basically no extra time. If you think it's as simple as reacting to pellets with Forward-B with you suffering no repercussion for it, it's hard to believe that you've ever fought a Mega Man with any concept of spacing. There's no point in having this conversation.

Pacman has no lag after the pellet on side B falls to the ground. Mega man is forced to jump back or suffer blaster lag.

I question if you know much about the pellet shielding technique. There is no risk involved due to the lack of lag after an attack hits the pellet. Mega man has to keep moving backward to avoid his end lag while we keep healing.

Edit: or let it fall and wait since mega man's lemons can't pass over a grounded pellet unless he jumps and shoots (which misses our head)

He can't wall Pacman out with that usual method

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If your Forward-B doesn't hit an object, you get punished hard. Single pellets don't have significant endlag. Metal Blade, especially as a thrown projectile, is very difficult to react to in that manner (though airdodge catching it is reasonable). Pac-Man does a fine job of being walled out by virtue of being Pac-Man; even without constant projectile walls, he struggles to get in.

 

[Blobface]

Also, are we talking about chars that just need little buffs? Ganon. Make his run or his dashgrab not quite so dismal, or at least give him a decent kill throw. God, it's like he's trying to grab you using T-Rex arms or something.

The only buff I'd give to Ganon at this point is a buff to Dark Dives grab attack. I'd buff it's power extremely, change it's knockback angle, and lower it's endlag by a lot. Mostly because Dark Dives damage doesn't make any sense. He electrocutes you and you explode. Why does that do 11%?

 

[Nu~]

@ TheReflexWonder
It isnt hard to drop a side B if mega man is going to constantly shoot pellets at your face. Unless mega man is only shooting one pellet per go, a side B will catch the others. If it is one pellet per go, we can fish for it and angle our side B upwards to retreat if mega shoots nothing.

And how exactly does Pacman struggle to get in? With fruits to run behind, Fair launched Hydrants to run with, and SH retreating fairs/bairs being safe on shield...how is he struggling to get in again?? His grab is the only thing that makes it kind of difficult to move in but even then, trampoline beats shield.

 

[warionumbah2]

6:4 = slight advantage
7:3 = clear advantage

MK gets 7:3 by imo.
MK gets 6:4 by (side b jank)

I'm not afraid to admit that my main loses, they aren't polarizing at all and no one else outside of a certain custom character polarizes him.

Falcon and MK are nothing alike, MKs dash attack outclasses Falcons and Falcons dash grab out classes MKs. Lets end this before it turns into = foolishness. Yes they go for the same thing in neutral but everything else is different smh.

 

[Luco]

I'm kinda with reflex here. What if just sits there with a fruit in hand and occasionally shoots out metal blade, crash bomber and leaf shield? Even if you catch the metal blade, he still has your fruit, and can still use CB and LS at will whilst you've got a highly predictable hydrant launch and side-B in the hopes that he uses pellet.

In other words, I feel like a Megaman catching fruit is a far bigger deal than Pacman catching a MB.

 

[Nu~]

I'm kinda with reflex here. What if just sits there with a fruit in hand and occasionally shoots out metal blade, crash bomber and leaf shield? Even if you catch the metal blade, he still has your fruit, and can still use CB and LS at will whilst you've got a highly predictable hydrant launch and side-B in the hopes that he uses pellet.

In other words, I feel like a Megaman catching fruit is a far bigger deal than Pacman catching a MB.

Or side B his crash bomber and start the pellet blocking early. The hydrant launch is meant to be followed up on. It erases mega man's zoning as we run behind it. LS as a thrown projectile in Nuetral? That's not going to work against anyone unless they sit on the other side of the screen and don't go in. It just isn't spamable enough.

Pac-Man shouldn't be trying to counter camp if mega has a fruit in hand, and we have plenty of tools to deal with pellets. I've played this matchup multiple times and no mega man can wall me out with any of the aforementioned projectiles.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ TheReflexWonder
It isnt hard to drop a side B if mega man is going to constantly shoot pellets at your face. Unless mega man is only shooting one pellet per go, a side B will catch the others. If it is one pellet per go, we can fish for it and angle our side B upwards to retreat if mega shoots nothing.

And how exactly does Pacman struggle to get in? With fruits to run behind, Fair launched Hydrants to run with, and SH retreating fairs/bairs being safe on shield...how is he struggling to get in again?? His grab is the only thing that makes it kind of difficult to move in but even then, trampoline beats shield.

It is often zero pellets per jump because he doesn't have anything to fear in terms of burst range except for the Key (which would cause him to be even more reserved about his pellet use anyway). Mega Man can catch your escape attempt with multiple options for at least a little damage (if not significant damage, depending on how close he was to begin with; item thrown Metal Blade hurts). The mix-up between all his projectiles make an "if x, y" approach to walling him excessively difficult.

Mega Man has somewhat better horizontal aerial mobility/speed, significant disjoints, and escape options that let him move away with relative impunity. Mega Man often responds to Pac-Man's approaches by moving away some more, a situation where he gets more out of counterpoking and greater flexibility for it.

I play both characters a decent bit and have a pretty solid Mega Man as the main person I practice with. It seems pretty hard to me.

 

[Ulevo]

6:4 = slight advantage
7:3 = clear advantage

MK gets 7:3 by imo.
MK gets 6:4 by (side b jank)

I'm not afraid to admit that my main loses, they aren't polarizing at all and no one else outside of a certain custom character polarizes him.

Falcon and MK are nothing alike, MKs dash attack outclasses Falcons and Falcons dash grab out classes MKs. Lets end this before it turns into = foolishness. Yes they go for the same thing in neutral but everything else is different smh.

I would disagree on Captain Falcon. I feel its 5:5 having played it so much. I would disagree with Zero Suit but I do not have enough experience to say. As far as Greninja is concerned, I do not think Shadow Sneak changes the match up in his favor, it just makes it so we need to change play style.

I sort of feel R.O.B. and Villager might be 4:6, however they might be 5:5. Depends on how the match is played. I thought Villager might be 4:6 but then I began adapting and just know how to play it, though he has a lot of things that cover what Meta Knight can normally get away with.

 

[Nu~]

It is often zero pellets per jump because he doesn't have anything to fear in terms of burst range except for the Key (which would cause him to be even more reserved about his pellet use anyway). Mega Man can catch your escape attempt with multiple options for at least a little damage (if not significant damage, depending on how close he was to begin with; item thrown Metal Blade hurts). The mix-up between all his projectiles make an "if x, y" approach to walling him excessively difficult.

Mega Man has somewhat better horizontal aerial mobility/speed, significant disjoints, and escape options that let him move away with relative impunity. Mega Man often responds to Pac-Man's approaches by moving away some more, a situation where he gets more out of counterpoking and greater flexibility for it.

I play both characters a decent bit and have a pretty solid Mega Man as the main person I practice with. It seems pretty hard to me.

But how is he catching our escape easily if he still has our fruit in his hand?

Why would Mega man intentionally limit his options to "attempt" at walling out pac-man with 2 projectiles that lose to side B, one that will be caught if spammed, and another that is much too slow to throw out in mid range?

He can try to move away from a Fair launch hydrant, but if he isnt an entire stage length away, he is forced to either jump or shield. Both of which can be punished while we run behind the hydrant. If Pacman mixes up between simply launching hydrants with Fair and running behind them, running up to mega man as he tries to bounce away, and using Side B whenever mega feels like using neutral A, mega man will continuously lose stage control until he is forced to try and jump over us and eat a punish.
Mega Man is constantly forced to commit to predictable defensive options unless he shoots, which then becomes check mate once we side B. If a side B sits on the stage, mega man has to jump over it or give up the fruit.

I have fought many competent mega men (mostly on smash ladder) and have found that a constant retreat method in this matchup ends up hurting mega man more than it does Pacman in my experience.

Edit: Pacman mains are trying to throw more fruit as items now anyway. An item tossed fruit can't be caught.

 

[warionumbah2]

I would disagree on Captain Falcon. I feel its 5:5 having played it so much. I would disagree with Zero Suit but I do not have enough experience to say. As far as Greninja is concerned, I do not think Shadow Sneak changes the match up in his favor, it just makes it so we need to change play style.

I sort of feel R.O.B. and Villager might be 4:6, however they might be 5:5. Depends on how the match is played. I thought Villager might be 4:6 but then I began adapting and just know how to play it, though he has a lot of things that cover what Meta Knight can normally get away with.

C.Falcon players aren't laming us out for some reason, they have a character with incredible neutral so why aren't they abusing it? Falcon has a clear advantage imo and pretty much everyones played this MU to death, if a Falcons out for a good time then yes its even but when they want to win and play logically its rough.

A character with a strong neutral,a strong ground game comparable to MKs and more damage output tend to do well against him.

I haven't played Frog myself im just going with what Ito said, his foolish side b cripples our staple kill move. Although there's other options i do admit, should've left him out my b.

Villager ain't doin **** lol, was wondering why you thought he/she has the advantage. Right now MKs need to learn how to walk and maximize his ground game, no sh aerials but Sakurai gave us everything we need on the ground.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

"Luigi gets 50% off of one grab"

Do you just put your controller down after being grabbed and not DI at all?

 

[bc1910]

If I shield Falcon's dash attack, he eats a punish. If I shield Meta Knights dash attack, I have to first anticipate the cross up mix up in order to get a proper punish. I would say this makes Meta Knight's much safer than Falcon's.

Right, so they're not exactly the same. Doesn't mean they're not similar.

@ warionumbah2 What? MK gets 6:4'd by Greninja because of side B jank? You're gonna have to thoroughly explain that.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ warionumbah2 What? MK gets 6:4'd by Greninja because of side B jank? You're gonna have to thoroughly explain that.

I haven't played Frog myself im just going with what Ito said,.

6:4 = slight advantage
7:3 = clear advantage

should've left him out my b.

No.

 

[FullMoon]

Right, so they're not exactly the same. Doesn't mean they're not similar.

@ warionumbah2 What? MK gets 6:4'd by Greninja because of side B jank? You're gonna have to thoroughly explain that.

Greninja can hitstun cancel the first hit of Shuttle Loop with Shadow Sneak and both escape the second hit and hit MK with it, so MK basically is at risk every time he uses his main kill move in the air

It doesn't quite happen here, but this is pretty much how it goes, just have Greninja get hit by the first hit of Shuttle Loop and the result is the same.

This is pretty much the only MU where the hitstun cancelling is good for something amusingly enough.

 

[Ulevo]

C.Falcon players aren't laming us out for some reason, they have a character with incredible neutral so why aren't they abusing it? Falcon has a clear advantage imo and pretty much everyones played this MU to death, if a Falcons out for a good time then yes its even but when they want to win and play logically its rough.

A character with a strong neutral,a strong ground game comparable to MKs and more damage output tend to do well against him.

I haven't played Frog myself im just going with what Ito said, his foolish side b cripples our staple kill move. Although there's other options i do admit, should've left him out my b.

Villager ain't doin **** lol, was wondering why you thought he/she has the advantage. Right now MKs need to learn how to walk and maximize his ground game, no sh aerials but Sakurai gave us everything we need on the ground.

Basically Villager has a lot of excellent disjointed hitboxes. Up air is huge, down air is huge, down tilt is huge, forward tilt is good, up smash is huge. We cannot juggle him, air camping him is dangerous, he edge guards Meta Knight better than a lot of characters, he's difficult to edge guard because of the mobility of Balloon Trip, we are forced to approach him thanks to Lloid, and if our spacing is not tight we lose out to forward air and back air camping.

Right, so they're not exactly the same. Doesn't mean they're not similar.

@ warionumbah2 What? MK gets 6:4'd by Greninja because of side B jank? You're gonna have to thoroughly explain that.

They're not similar...

And what he's referring to is the hit stun cancelling properties of Shadow Sneak. Right now its bugged so that you can cancel hit stun early, and he is able to cancel out of Shuttle Loop 1 and possible hit us for a kill before Shuttle Loop 2 connects.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Alright everybody, the votes have been tallied and I have the newest tier list from /r/smashbros for you all. There were no big changes in the poll or game really this month, so it will be interesting to see how people feel about the characters now that the patch has settled a bit and we've had some events..NOW HERE WE GO!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories.

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)
(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)
(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)
(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)
(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)
(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)
(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)
(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)


A few things I personally noticed: there's quite a few characters that actually stayed in their place or maybe moved 1-2 spots this month, I think peoples impressions are starting to settle out a bit. Though it seems a few characters are still really seeing radical changes (Kirby and Little Mac WOW) and the mid to lower tiers are having the most fluctuation.

Here are the Miscellaneous Questions!​

[collapse=]
Which character do you think has the most hidden potential?
1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you think is the most overrated?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is easiest to use?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is hardest to use?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you hate to fight the most?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you love to fight the most?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you play as as most?

1.
2.
3.

[/collapse]

So here you go everyone, what do you all think?​

 

[Kofu]

Basically Villager has a lot of excellent disjointed hitboxes. Up air is huge, down air is huge, down tilt is huge, forward tilt is good, up smash is huge. We cannot juggle him, air camping him is dangerous, he edge guards Meta Knight better than a lot of characters, he's difficult to edge guard because of the mobility of Balloon Trip, we are forced to approach him thanks to Lloid, and if our spacing is not tight we lose out to forward air and back air camping.

The only thing MK lacks to deal with default Villager is a better sex kick aerial to beat out slingshots (NAir is okay I guess). He's got everything else he needs IMO to handle him. Lloid is like the laggiest projectile ever, just dash attack/dash grab through the startup with your ground speed and get in on him. Juggling Villager is tricky but so is juggling MK. I'm also not seeing the big deal with edge guarding Villager. Balloon Trip is flexible, yes, but as soon as you let off the special button to avoid an attack you lose all momentum and it takes time to get it back. Villager is either going right for the ledge or going to deliberately overshoot it. Wait and see what his plan is then hit him for it. Dimensional Cape is also a scary attack for Villager to deal with

In general MK > Villager in terms of ground game and MK's short enough that pestering him with slingshots is difficult. Villager's awful grab allows MK to pressure his shield pretty well too, especially if he spaces to avoid NAir.

I can see where you're coming from and it might be slightly in Villager's favor but MK doesn't struggle like some characters do.

 

[warionumbah2]

You're like THE only MK who struggles with Villager, Utilt beats his Dair so we can juggle him alot of things you listed are overblown and has yet to pose a threat to MKs competitively.

On the Frog thing at least he can't cancel through grounded shuttle loop. Also the number of Frogs are low so its like a 'whatever' type of MU.

 

[GeneralLedge]

@ LiteralGrill IMO it's overwhelming to have to pick from 16 bullets for every character. Questionable as well why the lists need a spread of +/- per tier letter.

Couldn't the same or similar results be attained from the choices, {"IDK", 1(D), 2(C), 3(B), 4(A), 5(S)}?

Also dang, Mii Sword going +5. Slipping out of the "worst" zone and into the "eh, whatever" zone.

 

[Zelder]

Zelda is the worst character in the game, competitively.

 

[bc1910]

I am not saying the characters are the same, trust me I know how annoying it is when people say that, but MK and Falcon's dash attacks ARE similar lmao. Comparable reward, range, speed and safety. The crossup makes the safety kind of different but it's kind of splitting hairs. If you can't see how they're similar I don't really know what to say. Anyway enough about this.

Oh the hitstun cancel thing... I never use it cause I think it's gonna get patched out. I can see why it'd be annoying but that alone shouldn't bring the MU to 6:4.

 

[Ulevo]

The only thing MK lacks to deal with default Villager is a better sex kick aerial to beat out slingshots (NAir is okay I guess). He's got everything else he needs IMO to handle him. Lloid is like the laggiest projectile ever, just dash attack/dash grab through the startup with your ground speed and get in on him. Juggling Villager is tricky but so is juggling MK. I'm also not seeing the big deal with edge guarding Villager. Balloon Trip is flexible, yes, but as soon as you let off the special button to avoid an attack you lose all momentum and it takes time to get it back. Villager is either going right for the ledge or going to deliberately overshoot it. Wait and see what his plan is then hit him for it. Dimensional Cape is also a scary attack for Villager to deal with

In general MK > Villager in terms of ground game and MK's short enough that pestering him with slingshots is difficult. Villager's awful grab allows MK to pressure his shield pretty well too, especially if he spaces to avoid NAir.

I can see where you're coming from and it might be slightly in Villager's favor but MK doesn't struggle like some characters do.

Lloid is not so much a problem as it is a reason to approach Villager. If Villager sets up Lloid for free, then Meta Knight's position in neutral is worse off. Because of the long start up, Meta Knight can freely punish Villager within a set distance when Villager places Lloid, but whats important to note is that Meta Knight is very strong at obtaining a lead and then playing defensively. Meta Knight cannot do this against Villager because of Lloid.

You're like THE only MK who struggles with Villager, Utilt beats his Dair so we can juggle him alot of things you listed are overblown and has yet to pose a threat to MKs competitively.

On the Frog thing at least he can't cancel through grounded shuttle loop. Also the number of Frogs are low so its like a 'whatever' type of MU.

I do not struggle with Villager, I am saying he has the tools to have a potential advantage. I am not entirely sure yet as my adaptations to the match up have changed my recent results, but the tools are still there. Also, up tilt does not beat his down air, as I found out. If it does, the spacing is tight.

Either way, I think you are underestimating the character. And for a decent reason. He is not played competitively very often, and when he is, it is usually in a customs environment with ledge camping nonsense. I am talking about Villager being played as a character, not a ledge bot.

 

[FullMoon]

The MK MU always felt even to me in spite of Shadow Sneak shenanigans so w/e.

I doubt the hitstun cancelling will survive the Lucas patch, I'm surprised it lasted this long when even less used things like the infinite Shadow Sneak glitch was patched out.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ LiteralGrill IMO it's overwhelming to have to pick from 16 bullets for every character. Questionable as well why the lists need a spread of +/- per tier letter.

Couldn't the same or similar results be attained from the choices, {"IDK", 1(D), 2(C), 3(B), 4(A), 5(S)}?

Also dang, Mii Sword going +5. Slipping out of the "worst" zone and into the "eh, whatever" zone.

To put it shortly, no the results would be crao without a decent variety of choices. People complained that 10 wasn't enough, so I bumped it up slightly. Since the results got a good bit more accurate, I'm good with it.