Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Well, Marth's forward smash did get a lot of buffs from Brawl, that's for sure.
Having comparable/better kill power than Bowser's fsmash, with like half or less of the start up is pretty sweet. But eh, that's not going to make him 'good' or 'great' on WiiU (or normally), it's just going to mean his highish risk/high reward is actually high reward (in Brawl it really wasn't worth using when we had down smash killing untippered way earlier and tippered killing often earlier than his tipper fsmash too). For the rest of my Brawl career, Fsmash was relegated to grab release Wario and Fthrow at 0% usage ONLY (and fthrow -> up smash did more damage too, just fsmash was a little easier).

 

[Conda]

How are we feeling about ToonLink? A fast swordie with great projectiles in a game where many of them have been nerfed, fire arrows, abusable 'smoke cloud' mechanics unique to him, a quick tether grab, and a kill throw

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

How are we feeling about ToonLink? A fast swordie with great projectiles in a game where many of them have been nerfed, fire arrows, abusable 'smoke cloud' mechanics unique to him, a quick tether grab, and a kill throw

I find him annoying to fight with characters who don't reflect projectiles like Falcon that's all I got say

 

[Jabejazz]

I think this description fits Sonic just as, if not more, accurately.

I really hate that blue thing. I fully agree with whoever said that he should never have been made viable with his current design

Blue thing as in Lucario right?

>70 stock lead
>Lucario to last stock, 150%
>Grabs you once
>Lose
>outskilled lel

OKAY

5.) Wario feels more like a "destroyer of worlds" character now actually. What this man can do now with his bike is outrageous whereas all of his other options either have been nerfed or at least not buffed in any way
[except a decent buff on dsmash, dtilt]. Seriously, if you ever encounter a Wario - especially on wifi - who attacks you with his bike rolling towards you over and over without having to commit to anything you'll understand what I'm talking about. The rest of his moveset is unimpressive and largeldy mediocre but the bike alone makes him probably viable and incredibly painful to play against.

I think his Wectoring is something that can be exploited to an interesting potential also.
Other than that, I agree entirely.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Blue thing as in Lucario right?
I think his Wectoring is something that can be exploited to an interesting potential also.
Other than that, I agree entirely.

I'm guessing your talking about that thing where he can fly around out of hitstun if it is that is than that's gonna make him extremely unpredictable and unique not to mention improving his already pretty good recovery game making him a character who can live for crazy long amounts of time.(take it good or bad)

 

[Jabejazz]

I'm guessing your talking about that thing where he can fly around out of hitstun if it is that is than that's gonna make him extremely unpredictable and unique not to mention improving his already pretty good recovery game making him a character who can live for crazy long amounts of time.(take it good or bad)

Yes and no. He will always make it back to the stage thanks to Wectoring (or whatever you guys want to name it).

But it doesn't make his vectoring stronger than other characters.

He becomes stronger against edgeguards, not against something that will send him to the blast zone.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario's momentum glitch also makes him impossible to edge guard and he can bring it back to neutral if he wanted.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

But it doesn't make his vectoring stronger than other characters.

I didn't mean it like that I meant he will make it harder to gimp him unless they do it in a really predictable manner.

 

[Thinkaman]

To step back a bit, I really, really don't want game design johns to become a thing.

I might hate playing against Sonic, but I hope I'm never salty enough to suggest that a loss doesn't count by elevating my subjective opinions into an armchair faux-objective diatribe.

This criticism is aimed more directly at myself than anyone else here.

 

[Luco]

Blue thing as in Lucario right?

>70 stock lead
>Lucario to last stock, 150%
>Grabs you once
>Lose
>outskilled lel

OKAY

Okay I'm preetttttyyyyyy sure he's OBVIOUSLY talking about Greninja. Nothing says "get gimped" like a hydro pump to the face. I mean gosh guys, this character just needs a nerf. Volvo pls.

But in regards to Toon Link, I think he'll end up more or less around the same position as he was in brawl tbh, relatively that is

He's got good projectiles, and some nice techs as well as very potent customs that can really change how his match-ups are played. I think he has the tools to be just fine.

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu's is very lackluster; I'm still not seeing it. It isn't grabbable on block, but once you get pushed out, it's usually really easy to ftilt Pikachu. If you drop shield too early, you get hit once (take 1%) and then ftilt Pikachu (do more than 1%). If Pikachu stops jabbing at very precisely the right time, it may be safe, but it would have to hold shield which means that if you don't go for the ftilt you can just get right back in. I do not see the hype for this move at all.

Assuming his frame data is similar to brawl, the problem jab presents to punishers is it will hit the start up of any move that even slightly extends a characters hurtbox (probably all ftilts?). At least this was the case in brawl. The other issue is opponents escape jab at pikachu's dtilt range which pikachu can gain much from, I cant tell for certain but ESAM gets a lot of jab > dtilts so it seems like jab has more hitstun than it did in Brawl and maybe Melee. However it is possible to outright beat with a fairly long, disjointed, fast move, in which case pikachus only mix-up is ending jab at different times which isnt good but better than nothing.

Ugh, Pikachu's grounded UpB is just the most ridiculous piece of bad design.

Care to explain this a bit?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Is Mario Tier(Mario, Doc, Weegee) the new Hyrule Tier?

 

[Thinkaman]

The only true terribly designed blue smash character is the original.

 

[Jabejazz]

I didn't mean it like that I meant he will make it harder to gimp him unless they do it in a really predictable manner.

Well his momentum shift doesn't work with meteors, so he can still be gimped in that manner.
Otherwise, Wario will get back on stage if you don't KO him outright. He doesn't really "live longer".

To step back a bit, I really, really don't want game design johns to become a thing.

Feel free to use this thread to get them out of the way.

 

[Tagxy]

I mean, if it helps you I could come up with a similar kind of grouping but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to post it here ;P

Im curious to see

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is Mario Tier(Mario, Doc, Weegee) the new Hyrule Tier?

Goodness no! They have to work pretty hard and people are down on them ATM but unlike Hyrule tier in Brawl it's not like they CAN'T win. When Mario's MUs are according to some 6-4 across the board, that's still a matchup set to DIE FOR in a lot of other competitive fighters. 6-4 isn't even that bad IMO, that's pretty close to even.

I don't think we're ever gonna see another Hyrule Tier in this game lol.

 

[Conda]

Goodness no! They have to work pretty hard and people are down on them ATM but unlike Hyrule tier in Brawl it's not like they CAN'T win. When Mario's MUs are according to some 6-4 across the board, that's still a matchup set to DIE FOR in a lot of other competitive fighters. 6-4 isn't even that bad IMO, that's pretty close to even.

I don't think we're ever gonna see another Hyrule Tier in this game lol.

Hocotate tier?

 

[TTTTTsd]

LMAO Yeah we can't forget olimar but even then I hate counting chars out cause that gets me blasted. But maybe yeah

 

[HeavyLobster]

Goodness no! They have to work pretty hard and people are down on them ATM but unlike Hyrule tier in Brawl it's not like they CAN'T win. When Mario's MUs are according to some 6-4 across the board, that's still a matchup set to DIE FOR in a lot of other competitive fighters. 6-4 isn't even that bad IMO, that's pretty close to even.

I don't think we're ever gonna see another Hyrule Tier in this game lol.

I know that low tier in Smash 4 is nowhere near as bad as in Melee/Brawl, but even if they're only slightly worse than the rest of the cast they're still technically low tier and going to be mocked for it. I wasn't trying to imply that they would be remotely similar to Hyrule tier in terms of viability, just ranking.(and I'm well aware that even that is very premature at this point)

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Hocotate tier?

I don't think Olimar's bad he's just gonna be REALLY under used since he isn't ridiculous like he was in brawl.

 

[TTTTTsd]

oh I understand the sentiment but....I doubt they're gonna be mocked for it that badly. I think Doc is highly underrated and I'm reserving judgement on his recovery potential until GC controller to check for optimal mashing, Mario IDK I think he's low but not bottom, Luigi definitely low, but again, I wouldn't put any of them in the bottom 3 or even 5.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It can still be called "Tier Mario" when you realize who Olimar is named after. I mean seriously, his ship is the DOLPHIN. And in Pikmin 2 they introduced Louie.

Though Luigi is clearly better than Mario and Doc. Good recovery, Fireballs defensively are as good as Paralyzer. Massive damage and a sorta brain dead Dthrow.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It can still be called "Tier Mario" when you realize who Olimar is named after. I mean seriously, his ship is the DOLPHIN. And in Pikmin 2 they introduced Louie.

Well played lol. I'm still reserving judgement for results, tournament play, better controllers and higher skill windows though. Lord knows how this is gonna change when WiiU drops.

I also think having a bunch of 4-6 matchups and 5-5 matchups is nothing to scoff at, coming from a background of Street Fighter. When people compare Mario to SF4 Dan I shake my head in frustration. Dan WISHES he could have 4-6 against that entire roster lmao, that's not even close to the same thing. I also think a MU chart that well rounded in retrospect does not make for the traits of a "bottom tier" if you can fight everybody, but again, just me!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think on Default Marth wins vs Mario and Doc 7/3. Customs legal the match up is probably 6/4.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Can you think of any other MUs that are 7-3 or lower? I'd argue that even 4-5 of those wouldn't be enough, you'd need a lot of 8-2s or a majority 7-3s to have it even count.

Having played ST for a year and looked into it, I feel like I can tell you the requirements of a bottom tier are generally a lot of 7-3 8-2 MUs against them, maybe they counter one or two chars, maybe not.

I still think a majority 6-4 or 5-5 is far from what I'd call bottom. If he's one of the worst in the game and this is the MU chart then I wouldn't even name the tier "bottom" as that implies worthlessness and those MUs are far from unwinnable.

I'll cite ST Zangief. He has two 6-4s in his favor. One 5-5, everything else is 7-3 against him, 8-2 against him, he even has one of two infamous 9-1 MUs against him! He's an example of what I would call bottom tier.

I guess it comes down to independent beliefs on what is "bottom tier", I suppose. But I have my reasons.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly the main reason Marth is so awful for Mario and Doc in this game is because his reward on hit is DUMB. His zoning is beatable for both characters, and not quite as unfair as it used to be. Just the fact his traps into KO moves are so deadly and his tipper edge guards wreck linear recoveries is polarizing.

I do believe Mario and Doc mostly have winnable matchups. Just they really don't have favorable matchups.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, I can concede with mostly winnable matchups, which is why I just hate the phrasing of bottom tier in this instance. I think "below average" tier works a lot better because if these are the worst and they can still reliably, say, win with good play, I consider that well-designed.

I think Shaya's term coined "Less than average" or something along those lines sounded better and much more reasonable to me. Just because when you speak comparatively, bottom tier in Smash 4 is so different than bottom tier in the other Smash games barring 64.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The low tier characters aren't actually a lot better than low tiers in Brawl... they just don't get chaingrabbed/gimped with 0 effort/otherwise gayed out as easily. The difference is how they approached character design in general. The game is much, much tamer at the top end than past Smash games. They were very careful to ensure that nothing was too oppressive this time.

If you took Samus from Smash 4 and put her in Brawl she'd still have a 1-9 match-up with Meta Knight.

The "power cap" in this game is much lower than past games. There is a lot less craziness in general.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well yeah the game being more balanced is generally a result of the top end being less strong and the game's mechanics allowing for a more opportunistic playing field all across the board, but it's still much better designed in that regard nonetheless.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Care to explain this a bit?

Unpunishable damaging (with added knockback and hitstun, joy!) teleports. 'Nuff said.

 

[popsofctown]

How about, "It's-a-mii, Mario!" tier? I think Mii swordsman at the very least will be in there. Worst in class normals across the board, no projectile support or command grabs or other high value special properties in his specials, just a nice downsmash with speed OoS on Hero's Spin, decent choice of counter or reflector, and some bad Falcon kick/bouncing fish variants.

 

[Tagxy]

To be honest brawl on the low end wasnt THAT bad, so its not the worst thing to be compared to (plus I feel like it still is better overall). Not to say low tiers in Brawl were that great, but I would say there was significantly greater deviation from the mean at the top end as opposed to the bottom.

Unpunishable damaging (with added knockback and hitstun, joy!) teleports. 'Nuff said.

Hmm, what characters are you using? I feel like the move shouldnt be spammable-ish but its hard to tell atm.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There are questionable mechanics like Lucario's aura, and Rosalina. For the most part though not as many things zone "flawlessly" and there are fewer really early gimps. TL vs Bowser though by design I don't see as winnable for Bowser. Most other balance problems though are more a question of risk vs reward. Overall game balance is legit even if obvious problems seem intuitive to us.

Sonic and Pikachu however break the rules of the game legitimately and are super cancerous. Along with Rosalina, but everyone already knew she was guaranteed to be dumb.

 

[Jahordon]

Can somebody explain why Pikachu is cancerous? I see a lot of talk about how good/cancerous he is, and I don't understand it. I know he can combo, but is his combo game that much better than others? It feels like I'll do long links with him that don't do much damage, and my opponents get 2 hits in and have matched my damage output. His kill potential seems really weak, too.

I'm probably just bad with Pika, but I want to be enlightened. Even Zer0 said he thinks Pika is top tier, which I don't get.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sonic and Pikachu however break the rules of the game legitimately and are super cancerous. Along with Rosalina, but everyone already knew she was guaranteed to be dumb.

Oh man, Sonic....Yeah, I'd have to agree a bit there. Haven't dealt with enough Pika at all to really say anything, but Sonic, even from the limited amount I've seen, bothers me. Rosalina I've come to expect but she's like a less jank Ice Climbers and not as big a problem I think.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can somebody explain why Pikachu is cancerous? I see a lot of talk about how good/cancerous he is, and I don't understand it. I know he can combo, but is his combo game that much better than others? It feels like I'll do long links with him that don't do much damage, and my opponents get 2 hits in and have matched my damage output. His kill potential seems really weak, too.

I'm probably just bad with Pika, but I want to be enlightened. Even Zer0 said he thinks Pika is top tier, which I don't get.

Unreactable approach, impossible to trap, able to camp safely, also edge guards like a maniac and has reliable KO confirms. Super overloaded character only held back by not KOing you pre 150 easily.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The low tier characters aren't actually a lot better than low tiers in Brawl... they just don't get chaingrabbed/gimped with 0 effort/otherwise gayed out as easily. The difference is how they approached character design in general. The game is much, much tamer at the top end than past Smash games. They were very careful to ensure that nothing was too oppressive this time.

If you took Samus from Smash 4 and put her in Brawl she'd still have a 1-9 match-up with Meta Knight.

Samus is a poor example because she's still not a very good character in smash. If MK had to deal with Rosalina, Greninja, Smash 4 Yoshi or Smash 4 Lucario to deal with things would be a bit different. And I think we'll find plenty of "oppressive" things in this game over time. Rosie, Yoshi, Lucario, Sonic, Little Mac and Jiggs clearly have the tools to destroy some of their opponents pretty badly. In the same hand there are characters in this game that are virtually begging to get *****.

I think people are a bit too hasty drawing conclusions on this game's balance. Wouldn't be surprised if it were to turn out similar to Brawl in that regard.

 

[popsofctown]

Pikachu isn't even high tier. His short hop isn't a frame trap, even though it might seem that way if you try to fight him just like every other character. If you can stop him from brickwalling you with that even half the time, the kill ability discrepancies will annihilate him. Rage makes not killing well a big deal.

Pikachu also lacks a jab, which is huge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus is a poor example because she's still not a very good character in smash. If MK had to deal with Rosalina, Greninja, Smash 4 Yoshi or Smash 4 Lucario to deal with things would be a bit different. And I think we'll find plenty of "oppressive" things in this game over time. Rosie, Yoshi, Lucario, Sonic, Little Mac and Jiggs clearly have the tools to destroy some of their opponents pretty badly. In the same hand there are characters in this game that are virtually begging to get *****.

I think people are a bit too hasty drawing conclusions on this game's balance. Wouldn't be surprised if it were to turn out similar to Brawl in that regard.

Most of the glaringly disgusting matchups in this game imo are largely reward imbalances, or they involve Bowser or Mega Man.

Ganondorf isn't the worst character in this game. Walling is definitely not nearly as potent in this game where air dodging and ledge stalling are punishable and most hit boxes are less disgusting on the top tiers compared to Brawl MK Snake ICs Olimar.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Samus is a poor example because she's still not a very good character in smash. If MK had to deal with Rosalina, Greninja, Smash 4 Yoshi or Smash 4 Lucario to deal with things would be a bit different. And I think we'll find plenty of "oppressive" things in this game over time. Rosie, Yoshi, Lucario, Sonic, Little Mac and Jiggs clearly have the tools to destroy some of their opponents pretty badly. In the same hand there are characters in this game that are virtually begging to get *****.

I think people are a bit too hasty drawing conclusions on this game's balance. Wouldn't be surprised if it were to turn out similar to Brawl in that regard.

You might be right, it is very early. But I still think much of the game feels "canned" compared to past Smash games, where certain attacks were designed to work very well together and some not to function well at all. It's difficult to explain what I mean. Anyone who has played Gouken in SF4 might understand what I'm talking about. He has clear barriers in his kit set up to stop him from abusing certain very strong moves he has in unintended ways, whereas most of the rest of the cast can link a variety of moves together and be far more "creative."

I feel Smash 4 has sacrificed a certain level of potential creativity in favor of a more balanced overall experience. That's not to say the meta can't evolve or that we won't find interesting things, but Smash 4 offers a fair bit less "freedom" to the player compared to Brawl. Knockback angles feel far more restricive and less general (a lot of angles in brawl were like, this hits straight up, this hits horizontally, etc Smash 4's kb angles feel often just out of reach or just barely inconvenient for a follow-up attack).

Things are set up to work in certain ways and in certain circumstances, and only those circumstances, which makes the game easier to balance and more predictable for the designers. There seems to have been a decision internally to say "okay, we're going to give players the combo game they want back, but we're going to make sure things don't get crazy by mapping out every potential string and making sure the ones we didn't account for aren't there." With a... obviously dubious degree of success, mind you.

Ultimately this gives just about every character less "teeth" because there is just less potential for abuse.

I don't think I need to say "could be wrong, very early" every time I post something, though, @ ~ Gheb ~ . This is an impressions thread after all.