Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Of course no one has yet to mention Luigi's jab, which is great. Good damage racking, fast, leads into grabs and sometimes up Bs, pushes him forward to keep close to the opponent, great to end combos with.
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Character Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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You have to commit relatively hard to be in a position to confirm KOs off projectiles. You kinda stated it yourself. Even factoring how good item tossing is, TL's KO setups require specific and usually risky positioning to work. Only against characters with very poor landing options is it easy for TL to get really safe KOs.
Keep in mind this is especially a problem when you have a tether grab that doesn't have exceptional setup potential. TL does however KO fairly decently with Bthrow.
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The best jab I'm pretty sure is Greninja's. It comes out so fast, links so reliably, and does decent damage. Most jabs in this game are good though a lot of rapid jabs are quite unreliable (Bowser Jr. and Diddy Kong especially have very unreliable rapid jabs); I really like the rapid jabs like Greninja's, Mac's, and Falco's that tend to work the most often and find them the overall highest value jabs while less reliable rapid jabbers I usually like less than non-rapid jabbers.
It's hard to name bad jabs really. Mii Gunner's often links horribly, Lucario's jab is really picky about aura to combo, Jigglypuff's jab is pretty unimpressive, Pikachu's is mediocre, and Zelda's jab is still Zelda's jab. I actually like all of the other 46; even MK's is oddly useful in its own weird way (MK and Mega Man have unusual jabs but not bad ones).
It's hard to name bad jabs really. Mii Gunner's often links horribly, Lucario's jab is really picky about aura to combo, Jigglypuff's jab is pretty unimpressive, Pikachu's is mediocre, and Zelda's jab is still Zelda's jab. I actually like all of the other 46; even MK's is oddly useful in its own weird way (MK and Mega Man have unusual jabs but not bad ones).
Conda
aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
Samus's is likely the worst as youll basically always be punished for landing it
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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unless I just simply can't see frames on crappy 30 fps videos, Zelda appears to have a faster Jab. It has a good hit box and causes soft knockdown at mid percents, which easily starts combos and it antiairs very effectively. In general her Jab has the makings of a great move.
NairWizard
Somewhere
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Pikachu's jab is probably one of the best in the game. Just watch ESAM use it. He'll repeatedly jab until you're forced to move away because it's so rapid that it's difficult to punish. Incredible tool for the character.
On the subjects of bad jabs, Jigglypuff's can't jab lock anymore.
It's just Villager's jab but with less range and less safety. It's not useless, but there's no way it's anywhere but bottom 10 among jabs (jab is a very good class of move so take that how you will).
Jiggs 1-2 seems pretty fast and long range in this, considering her aerial niche. Seems to basically always be a dash grab or attack if you get hit by it, which is pretty scary, dash attack can kill for example and otherwise launches far enough for you to definitely maintain a disadvantaged position.
Yeah, jabs were good in Brawl, but I don't think every character used their jab to the degree that Falco/Ike did. Most jab usages I see was always the "fastest option out of landing/spot dodge" scenarios.
In this game most characters seem to really use/abuse their jabs in as many situations as they can use it in as possible. They've made the move a B&B for nearly everyone I think (and as I mentioned earlier: just like back air was B&B for just about everyone in Brawl).
Yeah, jabs were good in Brawl, but I don't think every character used their jab to the degree that Falco/Ike did. Most jab usages I see was always the "fastest option out of landing/spot dodge" scenarios.
In this game most characters seem to really use/abuse their jabs in as many situations as they can use it in as possible. They've made the move a B&B for nearly everyone I think (and as I mentioned earlier: just like back air was B&B for just about everyone in Brawl).
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PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Haha
Ok so can we start referring to Robin as "Thoron+?"
Why? Because Thoron+ is absolutely ridiculous. You could be getting your ass kicked, but if you land a Thoron+ at say... 70-80%, you've secured a huge advantage. The threat of that move alone is enough to influence your opponents movements. (though it's still impossible to charge against Sheik and Diddy).
Robin's an unremarkable fighter, but Thoron+ by itself secures him a position in mid tier, at least.
Ok so can we start referring to Robin as "Thoron+?"
Why? Because Thoron+ is absolutely ridiculous. You could be getting your ass kicked, but if you land a Thoron+ at say... 70-80%, you've secured a huge advantage. The threat of that move alone is enough to influence your opponents movements. (though it's still impossible to charge against Sheik and Diddy).
Robin's an unremarkable fighter, but Thoron+ by itself secures him a position in mid tier, at least.
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Luco
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Nairo uses a lot of Robin and seems to do rather well. That said, it's been said a number of times that people doubt Robin has the potential to go with nairo's level of play. Still, I would put Robin in that mid-high category everyone loves to talk about. 
Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
I still say Robin has that Brawl GW/DDD syndrome going.
Once Sm4sh U is out and he gets a Cstick, Robin will gain a retreating Levin Fair since the move begins under him and travels up which will help for OoS and defense, and with any luck the grab range would have increased ever so slightly, but Robin still gets busted by rushdown characters, which comprises about 90% of the perceived top tier atm.
Once Sm4sh U is out and he gets a Cstick, Robin will gain a retreating Levin Fair since the move begins under him and travels up which will help for OoS and defense, and with any luck the grab range would have increased ever so slightly, but Robin still gets busted by rushdown characters, which comprises about 90% of the perceived top tier atm.
BBC7
Smash Ace
Mega has a really good bair, therefore at least lower-mid
Absolutely! Man, Thoron+ is incredible. Even just holding onto a charge changes matchups immensely, like a G&W Bucket.
Note: Thoron is a ton of rapid fast hits. If you Thoron into a Bucket, G&W absorbs the first 3 hits and then dies. *whistles innocently*
This was originally my hypothesis as well, but in practice I haven't noticed that much of a difference. Levin Sword anything, his decent grab, and his potent jab are all dangerous things to run into. As Robin I'm honestly finding myself more bothered by projectiles than mobility, to my surprise.
Nairo
Banned via Administration
Im gonna try to make Robin better on the wii u version than 3DS I feel like she is better than what people think (not like top 3 or anything of course though)Nairo uses a lot of Robin and seems to do rather well. That said, it's been said a number of times that people doubt Robin has the potential to go with nairo's level of play. Still, I would put Robin in that mid-high category everyone loves to talk about.
PKNintendo
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Well, neither of those characters had a full screen projectile that could dish out 33% and KO at low percentages. Don't get me wrong; Robin still loses to rushdown characters, and it's pretty much impossible to charge it against the likes of Sheik and other anti-zoners, but if the opponent can't effectively stop Robin from charging it, then he's got a chance to steal a match in literally every matchup where that move is effective.
Damn, I hope we find a work around Custom Moves for Wii U version. I can't imagine playing Robin without that move anymore.
Thinkaman and I just did some explorative gameplay with these jabs since jab quality was a big topic and jabs seem really important to a lot of characters. We only looked at a few, most of them rapid jabs...
Palutena's is just the best. If you don't have a f1 invincible OoS option, just good luck punishing it on block (doesn't seem generally possible). Even if she just stands there jabbing, it clashes with almost everything you could do which means if she pushes you out on block it's very hard to punish her before she gets safe unless you back off out of range, predict the finisher, and whiff punish it or something like that. She has a pretty strong jab cancel too (jab cancel grab isn't a combo but can't be spotdodged if jab hits so if she goes for it as a mix-up she's extremely unlikely to be punished); I think the best answer to our earlier discussion of who has the best jab is actually "Palutena".
Greninja and Mac both have solid rapid jabs that tend to hit quite a few times before an up and away escape and on block are a mix-up. Both can be fairly consistently punished on block if the defender predicts the finisher, but the defender as a generic character has no one option that will beat all possible finisher timings. Falcon's rapid jab is very similar on block but doesn't tend to do much damage on hit (easy to escape, but Falcon can often stay safe by using the finisher intelligently).
Falco's rapid jab is quite unsafe on block, but on hit, it's the most reliable one to hit a bunch of times of them all.
Pikachu's is very lackluster; I'm still not seeing it. It isn't grabbable on block, but once you get pushed out, it's usually really easy to ftilt Pikachu. If you drop shield too early, you get hit once (take 1%) and then ftilt Pikachu (do more than 1%). If Pikachu stops jabbing at very precisely the right time, it may be safe, but it would have to hold shield which means that if you don't go for the ftilt you can just get right back in. I do not see the hype for this move at all.
Samus's jab is underwhelming, yeah. At most low and mid percent ranges, just hold shield makes jab 2 blocked which is sad. However, at high percent or as an anti-air, it links properly for decent damage and a nice push-out from jab 2.
G&W's is all around good. His finisher drastically outranges his standard combo which makes him very hard to punish on block if he's smart about when to do finisher, and G&W can generally do a fair chunk of damage with rapid jab before they get out. Duck Hunt's rapid jab tends to be escapable after not so much damage, and while the finisher on it also drastically outranges the rapid jab and the jab clashes with a lot of stuff, it's really easy a lot of times to back off and whiff punish the very slow finisher.
Robin's rapid jab does an unusually high amount of shield damage (if the opponent's shield isn't near full, it usually results in a shield stab) and seems generally tough to punish if the Robin player is reasonably smart about it, and it seems decent on hit as well (about average among rapid jabs). Robin's non-rapid jab jab combo can be punished by shield drop jab from an opponent if the opponent has a jab with sufficient range, but it seems like Robin has time to avoid a grab (it's really close, hard to tell precisely and may be worth exploring with Charizard as the blocker for his gargantuan grab range).
King Dedede's rapid jab is pretty safe on block, does a truckload of shield damage, and the finisher is easily used to punish would-be punish attempts. If he hits wih the rapid jab, it's super reliable, but at a lot of percent ranges, his jabs leading up to rapid allow hold down shield from the victim which is a real bummer for DDD.
Bowser Jr. has the worst rapid jab ever. Hold up and toward, double jump ASAP, and then fast fall nair lets DDD punish Bowser Jr. on hit, and plenty of other characters probably can punish on hit as well. Unlike a lot of rapid jabs, his hits slowly enough that you can sometimes roll behind him in the middle of blocking rapid jab (seems inconsistent, would need to toy with it offline with a GC controller, probably has one weak spot in the cycle), and if you do, he's stuck jabbing long enough for an easy punish.
That's what we were toying with; that may be relevant to the quality of any of these characters. I think in general for rapid jab characters rapid jabbing is quite good if you mix up your finisher timing both on hit or block, but it's really character to character just what you can get away with.
Palutena's is just the best. If you don't have a f1 invincible OoS option, just good luck punishing it on block (doesn't seem generally possible). Even if she just stands there jabbing, it clashes with almost everything you could do which means if she pushes you out on block it's very hard to punish her before she gets safe unless you back off out of range, predict the finisher, and whiff punish it or something like that. She has a pretty strong jab cancel too (jab cancel grab isn't a combo but can't be spotdodged if jab hits so if she goes for it as a mix-up she's extremely unlikely to be punished); I think the best answer to our earlier discussion of who has the best jab is actually "Palutena".
Greninja and Mac both have solid rapid jabs that tend to hit quite a few times before an up and away escape and on block are a mix-up. Both can be fairly consistently punished on block if the defender predicts the finisher, but the defender as a generic character has no one option that will beat all possible finisher timings. Falcon's rapid jab is very similar on block but doesn't tend to do much damage on hit (easy to escape, but Falcon can often stay safe by using the finisher intelligently).
Falco's rapid jab is quite unsafe on block, but on hit, it's the most reliable one to hit a bunch of times of them all.
Pikachu's is very lackluster; I'm still not seeing it. It isn't grabbable on block, but once you get pushed out, it's usually really easy to ftilt Pikachu. If you drop shield too early, you get hit once (take 1%) and then ftilt Pikachu (do more than 1%). If Pikachu stops jabbing at very precisely the right time, it may be safe, but it would have to hold shield which means that if you don't go for the ftilt you can just get right back in. I do not see the hype for this move at all.
Samus's jab is underwhelming, yeah. At most low and mid percent ranges, just hold shield makes jab 2 blocked which is sad. However, at high percent or as an anti-air, it links properly for decent damage and a nice push-out from jab 2.
G&W's is all around good. His finisher drastically outranges his standard combo which makes him very hard to punish on block if he's smart about when to do finisher, and G&W can generally do a fair chunk of damage with rapid jab before they get out. Duck Hunt's rapid jab tends to be escapable after not so much damage, and while the finisher on it also drastically outranges the rapid jab and the jab clashes with a lot of stuff, it's really easy a lot of times to back off and whiff punish the very slow finisher.
Robin's rapid jab does an unusually high amount of shield damage (if the opponent's shield isn't near full, it usually results in a shield stab) and seems generally tough to punish if the Robin player is reasonably smart about it, and it seems decent on hit as well (about average among rapid jabs). Robin's non-rapid jab jab combo can be punished by shield drop jab from an opponent if the opponent has a jab with sufficient range, but it seems like Robin has time to avoid a grab (it's really close, hard to tell precisely and may be worth exploring with Charizard as the blocker for his gargantuan grab range).
King Dedede's rapid jab is pretty safe on block, does a truckload of shield damage, and the finisher is easily used to punish would-be punish attempts. If he hits wih the rapid jab, it's super reliable, but at a lot of percent ranges, his jabs leading up to rapid allow hold down shield from the victim which is a real bummer for DDD.
Bowser Jr. has the worst rapid jab ever. Hold up and toward, double jump ASAP, and then fast fall nair lets DDD punish Bowser Jr. on hit, and plenty of other characters probably can punish on hit as well. Unlike a lot of rapid jabs, his hits slowly enough that you can sometimes roll behind him in the middle of blocking rapid jab (seems inconsistent, would need to toy with it offline with a GC controller, probably has one weak spot in the cycle), and if you do, he's stuck jabbing long enough for an easy punish.
That's what we were toying with; that may be relevant to the quality of any of these characters. I think in general for rapid jab characters rapid jabbing is quite good if you mix up your finisher timing both on hit or block, but it's really character to character just what you can get away with.
IMO Palutena is very, very good.
My friend/training partner who some may remember Meteor Master, a Brawl Ness that won tournaments early on has mained her from the start, but was planning to play Dark Pit for the "hard match ups" [at the time: everyone] instead until I told him "but have you seen what her customs can do?", not long after he was like "holy **** she's amazing", and it didn't take me very long after that to see that she was definitely NOT bottom tier. As he's developed her more he's now taking tournaments with her very cleanly without much competition in our region (I haven't been to any yet :<), she has a top tier grab game, likely the best in the cast I've seen tbqh. Dash attack and back air are basically super armor/invincibility moves, allowing her to go head on with just about every attack. When you add light weight to Palutena, she obviously becomes a whole new beast, where a mere shield pop up reaction by Palutena from the other side of the stage is a mistake you're likely to get punished for; her grab range is huge, and the speed at which she can move to dash grab or pivot grab you is insane, and you also have to respect dash attack, shield, up-b/up smash as well as super speed (which leads into up-b/up-smash as a true combo, although my friend has a hard time convincing the Palutena boards its real, but I'm pretty sure its real; very hard, but real). I think she may have weakness to just... uber hitbox zoning (so.. Rosalina... maybe... Pikachu... probably) but at this stage I would not be surprised if she's at least high tier.
I've mentioned jab to grab before, and now we've got AA saying it's the best, and, eh, it's definitely up there. The range, safety, and hit confirm 90/10s (its a joke to call them 50/50s) follow ups are just crazy.
Getting grabbed by palutena with light weight up at 80% is very easy scenario for every character to lose their stock. She super speeds or just dash jumps based off your DI and gets the neutral air and glides into the up air, it's practically unavoidable and takes your stocks, very early and very very easily.
I'm genuinely hoping that on the WiiU with a gamecube controller/C-Stick her **** will be a lot easier to Shuffle. Because otherwise I only see the consistency of her death combos going upwards :<
My friend/training partner who some may remember Meteor Master, a Brawl Ness that won tournaments early on has mained her from the start, but was planning to play Dark Pit for the "hard match ups" [at the time: everyone] instead until I told him "but have you seen what her customs can do?", not long after he was like "holy **** she's amazing", and it didn't take me very long after that to see that she was definitely NOT bottom tier. As he's developed her more he's now taking tournaments with her very cleanly without much competition in our region (I haven't been to any yet :<), she has a top tier grab game, likely the best in the cast I've seen tbqh. Dash attack and back air are basically super armor/invincibility moves, allowing her to go head on with just about every attack. When you add light weight to Palutena, she obviously becomes a whole new beast, where a mere shield pop up reaction by Palutena from the other side of the stage is a mistake you're likely to get punished for; her grab range is huge, and the speed at which she can move to dash grab or pivot grab you is insane, and you also have to respect dash attack, shield, up-b/up smash as well as super speed (which leads into up-b/up-smash as a true combo, although my friend has a hard time convincing the Palutena boards its real, but I'm pretty sure its real; very hard, but real). I think she may have weakness to just... uber hitbox zoning (so.. Rosalina... maybe... Pikachu... probably) but at this stage I would not be surprised if she's at least high tier.
I've mentioned jab to grab before, and now we've got AA saying it's the best, and, eh, it's definitely up there. The range, safety, and hit confirm 90/10s (its a joke to call them 50/50s) follow ups are just crazy.
Getting grabbed by palutena with light weight up at 80% is very easy scenario for every character to lose their stock. She super speeds or just dash jumps based off your DI and gets the neutral air and glides into the up air, it's practically unavoidable and takes your stocks, very early and very very easily.
I'm genuinely hoping that on the WiiU with a gamecube controller/C-Stick her **** will be a lot easier to Shuffle. Because otherwise I only see the consistency of her death combos going upwards :<
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Yeah, Palutena's Jab is really good.
Lightweight is pretty great but does comes at a cost. Her 1.4x 10%-minimum Counter is also a pretty solid option.
Also, in case you guys don't know, Explosive Flame can't be blocked. It's not a good move, but it's not a bad move either.
But most importantly I'd like to spend a moment to talk to you about our lord and savior Super Speed:
http://smashboards.com/threads/supe...ed-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-bair.374449/
Edit: Actually Shaya I think Rosalina is a favorable matchup for her, because her mobility+juggle game is so strong and she both damages and kills Luma so easily. Luma just hates Super Speed in every way.
It's hard to say, but I predict her worst matchup might be... Yoshi?
Edit 2: I actually can't think of a single character I'd more prefer to fight Rosalina with. Huh.
Lightweight is pretty great but does comes at a cost. Her 1.4x 10%-minimum Counter is also a pretty solid option.
Also, in case you guys don't know, Explosive Flame can't be blocked. It's not a good move, but it's not a bad move either.
But most importantly I'd like to spend a moment to talk to you about our lord and savior Super Speed:
http://smashboards.com/threads/supe...ed-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-bair.374449/
Edit: Actually Shaya I think Rosalina is a favorable matchup for her, because her mobility+juggle game is so strong and she both damages and kills Luma so easily. Luma just hates Super Speed in every way.
It's hard to say, but I predict her worst matchup might be... Yoshi?
Edit 2: I actually can't think of a single character I'd more prefer to fight Rosalina with. Huh.
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I just wish everyone had a custom special that turned them into for 10 seconds; except with the added benefit of keeping their often much better normals. Melee players will be like "SLOOOOW DOWWWWNNN", [POWER THIRST] (unfortunately for Shulk, the power of the monado doesn't let him be super jumpy and super movey at the same time)
And eh, I'd probably get a "of course Palutena beats Rosalina" from him, but at this point it's just assumed and the general response to everything is "well she's a god isn't she? Of course Sakurai balanced her as such".
for 10 seconds; except with the added benefit of keeping their often much better normals. Melee players will be like "SLOOOOW DOWWWWNNN", [POWER THIRST] (unfortunately for Shulk, the power of the monado doesn't let him be super jumpy and super movey at the same time)And eh, I'd probably get a "of course Palutena beats Rosalina" from him, but at this point it's just assumed and the general response to everything is "well she's a god isn't she? Of course Sakurai balanced her as such".
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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He has a few around.
Like A2 said earlier he is a lot more about creating traps and really bad situations for his opponents, and in this game he's pretty good at that.
RascalTheCharizard
Smash Ace
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- 987
@
Amazing Ampharos
makes a compelling argument, but I'm still not sold on Robin's Wind Jab. The amount of times I've seen people get out of it, both in low level and even high level (eg. Xzax vs Vinnie) matches, is sad. Seems like it gets punished half the time too. Then add in how it counts as a use of Elwind, Robin's only recovery move...
Amazing Ampharos
makes a compelling argument, but I'm still not sold on Robin's Wind Jab. The amount of times I've seen people get out of it, both in low level and even high level (eg. Xzax vs Vinnie) matches, is sad. Seems like it gets punished half the time too. Then add in how it counts as a use of Elwind, Robin's only recovery move...
I agree that fire jab is way more useful. But honestly, I've never once ran out of up-b's on Robin in a single stock.@
Anyway, a different type of character grouping I totally just thought up:
Destroyer of Worlds
With the power of single button presses they bring enemies to their knees; still potentially low tier, who knows. Either way, I'd prefer to play other characters in tournament, and people who play them are basically ***holes.
~
Isn't Bowser mid tier? Maybe. But I'll have to wait until people stop dying at 60% all the time first.
Villager? The worst character that beats everyone by sending them insane. Truly the most obnoxious character design to ever come out of a smash game, no matter what, the pace is always set by them and everything you do has to be careful and precise. Extremely lame custom specials. Any match with Villager involved can go to time out, and it's all up to the villager, you can't stop it (unless you're Falco).
Palutena? She's evil with light weight. Really evil. A goddess even.
Ness? This character gets everything for free, with a minor weakness in recovery, big whoop. A mid range design that counters other mid range and long range game plans for the most part.
Jack of All Trades/Swordsman
With the power of a billion options (usually in mid range combat) and being generally pretty strong, likely the type of characters to not have distinctive match up disadvantages with anyone, maybe struggling with some world-destroyers spamming on Wifi, I'm sure it'll be FINE soon though, trust!; room to become top tier, and I also really doubt they'll end up towards the lower ends
~
Donkey Kong? I feel as a heavy weight (and hence the type of things he loses to still exist) he's probably the most robust. Final D meta probably doesn't suit him much, but with the potential to stray away from that path on WiiU will work wonders for him.
Greninja isn't broken!? I don't know, he seems really good, but I still cannot conceptualise it personally as I haven't seen enough of it, he seems to really be a shadow (geddit?) to Sheik and Yoshi tbh.
Strategic Niche
May prove to have structural weaknesses they cannot get around, but definitely have singular/multiple strengths that feel rewarding enough for their players, and likely very appreciable match ups with certain classes of characters, anywhere between top to low! Their potency in the meta will likely depend a lot on the popularity of others.
~
Honestly, Falcon, Falco, G&W, ROB are all pretty potent still. The likes of Samus, Robin and ROB are such gods of long range combat that their players may just push that play style to the limit for success (slow paced matches, but it doesn't matter).
Unfortunately a bit lacking
I wouldn't necessarily say they're all bad/unusable, they may have swordsman/jack of all trade designs but their numbers are imbalanced negatively for them. They are working a lot harder than everyone else all the time, but they may still have potential to grow as the meta advances
~
*I put Lucina in two places, look how nice and aligned this all is 13 characters in each category
, holy crap (and it genuinely feels like that with Lucina, I'm just not sure if she's worth it at all).
Cape customs look pretty good, maybe good enough just to make them into JACKERS. Bowser Jr doesn't seem too bad, but I'm not entirely sure what he's meant to do. Shulk could go places with players adopting speed/jump stances more often (imo), and along with WiiFit, Zelda and Megaman are all pretty scary in doubles at the very least.
Destroyer of Worlds
With the power of single button presses they bring enemies to their knees; still potentially low tier, who knows. Either way, I'd prefer to play other characters in tournament, and people who play them are basically ***holes.
~
Isn't Bowser mid tier? Maybe. But I'll have to wait until people stop dying at 60% all the time first.
Villager? The worst character that beats everyone by sending them insane. Truly the most obnoxious character design to ever come out of a smash game, no matter what, the pace is always set by them and everything you do has to be careful and precise. Extremely lame custom specials. Any match with Villager involved can go to time out, and it's all up to the villager, you can't stop it (unless you're Falco).
Palutena? She's evil with light weight. Really evil. A goddess even.
Ness? This character gets everything for free, with a minor weakness in recovery, big whoop. A mid range design that counters other mid range and long range game plans for the most part.
Jack of All Trades/Swordsman
With the power of a billion options (usually in mid range combat) and being generally pretty strong, likely the type of characters to not have distinctive match up disadvantages with anyone, maybe struggling with some world-destroyers spamming on Wifi, I'm sure it'll be FINE soon though, trust!; room to become top tier, and I also really doubt they'll end up towards the lower ends
~
Donkey Kong? I feel as a heavy weight (and hence the type of things he loses to still exist) he's probably the most robust. Final D meta probably doesn't suit him much, but with the potential to stray away from that path on WiiU will work wonders for him.
Greninja isn't broken!? I don't know, he seems really good, but I still cannot conceptualise it personally as I haven't seen enough of it, he seems to really be a shadow (geddit?) to Sheik and Yoshi tbh.
Strategic Niche
May prove to have structural weaknesses they cannot get around, but definitely have singular/multiple strengths that feel rewarding enough for their players, and likely very appreciable match ups with certain classes of characters, anywhere between top to low! Their potency in the meta will likely depend a lot on the popularity of others.
~
Honestly, Falcon, Falco, G&W, ROB are all pretty potent still. The likes of Samus, Robin and ROB are such gods of long range combat that their players may just push that play style to the limit for success (slow paced matches, but it doesn't matter).
Unfortunately a bit lacking
I wouldn't necessarily say they're all bad/unusable, they may have swordsman/jack of all trade designs but their numbers are imbalanced negatively for them. They are working a lot harder than everyone else all the time, but they may still have potential to grow as the meta advances
~
*I put Lucina in two places, look how nice and aligned this all is 13 characters in each category
, holy crap (and it genuinely feels like that with Lucina, I'm just not sure if she's worth it at all).Cape customs look pretty good, maybe good enough just to make them into JACKERS. Bowser Jr doesn't seem too bad, but I'm not entirely sure what he's meant to do. Shulk could go places with players adopting speed/jump stances more often (imo), and along with WiiFit, Zelda and Megaman are all pretty scary in doubles at the very least.
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Hippieslayer
Smash Ace
greninja destroyer of worlds why ppl ****tin on him? they dont like the guy i guess
props for the grouping tho
props for the grouping tho
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My favorite characters are Super Speed, Thoron+, and Dragon Rush. I think they have a lot of good matchups.
ZombieBran
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2014
- Messages
- 1,645
I think this description fits Sonic just as, if not more, accurately.
I really hate that blue thing. I fully agree with whoever said that he should never have been made viable with his current design.
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I would become a Premium member if it let me like this post multiple times.
I didn't need to explain why Sonic is a destroy of worlds at least
everyone knows~
And he probably isn't a mediocre character behind all of his stupidity, either.
everyone knows~
And he probably isn't a mediocre character behind all of his stupidity, either.
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Disagree with just about everything in Shaya's grouping ...
1.) Diddy Kong, Sheik and ZSS don't fit the description of the "destroyer of worlds" at all. These characters are not comparable to Lucario, Sonic, Little Mac or Bowser who can just win through one single instance of bad game design. Like Fox or Greninja, they win because they have an incredible wealth of viable and powerful options. Against a skilled opponent you basically have to use as many of them as possible in order to win and make sure that he can never predict which option you're going to choose. As far as I can tell, your definition of "destroyer of worlds" essentially boils down to the character laming opponents out with 2 or 3 OP options that you cannot counter in any meaningful way. Diddy, Sheik and ZSS honestly have NONE such options and their success depends nearly entirely on the player's skill.
2.) It's really hard to see where you draw the line between the supposed "destroyer of worlds" Villager and the similarly obnoxious Pac-Man who according to you only has a "strategic nieche". Honestly, this looks like personal bias of you more than anything else. Charizard, G&W, Palutena and Ness all seem pretty much interchangeable between both categories and I can't see what made you choose one or the other for most of the characters.
3.) Not sure how "Jack of all trades" and "Swordsmen" could add up to one homogenous category in your head. There aren't many similarities between the gameplans of Peach or Pikachu and Marth / Lucina. The complete focus on mid-range zoning of characters like Marth, Lucina, DK and ROB [whom you put into a different category for some reason despite excelling at similar things] either warrants its own category entirely or put them into the "strategic nieche".
4.) Likewise, it's hard to understand how some characters ended up in "unfortunately lacking" when they could be in the "strategic nieche" category and vice versa. Shulk, Zelda and especially Mega Man are definitely not more lacking than Ganondorf or DDD are. I think the "strategic nieche" category is poorly defined to be perfectly honest and it seems more like you use it as a drawer where you either throw in all the characters you can't quite categorize or are unable to admit they are fundamentally lacking *coughMarthcough*
5.) Wario feels more like a "destroyer of worlds" character now actually. What this man can do now with his bike is outrageous whereas all of his other options either have been nerfed or at least not buffed in any way
[except a decent buff on dsmash, dtilt]. Seriously, if you ever encounter a Wario - especially on wifi - who attacks you with his bike rolling towards you over and over without having to commit to anything you'll understand what I'm talking about. The rest of his moveset is unimpressive and largeldy mediocre but the bike alone makes him probably viable and incredibly painful to play against.
6.) What fundamental, structural weaknesses do you see in the Duck Hunt Duo? Just because the few players he currently has have a limited projectile-spamming approach towards him doesn't mean that his other tools are not useful. His grab is good, he has a lot of disjointed hitboxes, nice aerials and passable close-range options. To me DHD is the definition of a JoaT character even though he's clearly not the best at it.
7.) Just to make it clear, I think the generel idea of how you categorize the characters is a good one. I just don't see where you are coming from with a lot of these.
1.) Diddy Kong, Sheik and ZSS don't fit the description of the "destroyer of worlds" at all. These characters are not comparable to Lucario, Sonic, Little Mac or Bowser who can just win through one single instance of bad game design. Like Fox or Greninja, they win because they have an incredible wealth of viable and powerful options. Against a skilled opponent you basically have to use as many of them as possible in order to win and make sure that he can never predict which option you're going to choose. As far as I can tell, your definition of "destroyer of worlds" essentially boils down to the character laming opponents out with 2 or 3 OP options that you cannot counter in any meaningful way. Diddy, Sheik and ZSS honestly have NONE such options and their success depends nearly entirely on the player's skill.
2.) It's really hard to see where you draw the line between the supposed "destroyer of worlds" Villager and the similarly obnoxious Pac-Man who according to you only has a "strategic nieche". Honestly, this looks like personal bias of you more than anything else. Charizard, G&W, Palutena and Ness all seem pretty much interchangeable between both categories and I can't see what made you choose one or the other for most of the characters.
3.) Not sure how "Jack of all trades" and "Swordsmen" could add up to one homogenous category in your head. There aren't many similarities between the gameplans of Peach or Pikachu and Marth / Lucina. The complete focus on mid-range zoning of characters like Marth, Lucina, DK and ROB [whom you put into a different category for some reason despite excelling at similar things] either warrants its own category entirely or put them into the "strategic nieche".
4.) Likewise, it's hard to understand how some characters ended up in "unfortunately lacking" when they could be in the "strategic nieche" category and vice versa. Shulk, Zelda and especially Mega Man are definitely not more lacking than Ganondorf or DDD are. I think the "strategic nieche" category is poorly defined to be perfectly honest and it seems more like you use it as a drawer where you either throw in all the characters you can't quite categorize or are unable to admit they are fundamentally lacking *coughMarthcough*
5.) Wario feels more like a "destroyer of worlds" character now actually. What this man can do now with his bike is outrageous whereas all of his other options either have been nerfed or at least not buffed in any way
[except a decent buff on dsmash, dtilt]. Seriously, if you ever encounter a Wario - especially on wifi - who attacks you with his bike rolling towards you over and over without having to commit to anything you'll understand what I'm talking about. The rest of his moveset is unimpressive and largeldy mediocre but the bike alone makes him probably viable and incredibly painful to play against.
6.) What fundamental, structural weaknesses do you see in the Duck Hunt Duo? Just because the few players he currently has have a limited projectile-spamming approach towards him doesn't mean that his other tools are not useful. His grab is good, he has a lot of disjointed hitboxes, nice aerials and passable close-range options. To me DHD is the definition of a JoaT character even though he's clearly not the best at it.
7.) Just to make it clear, I think the generel idea of how you categorize the characters is a good one. I just don't see where you are coming from with a lot of these.
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Warning Received
lol.
Looming issue I agree with you on would be resolving the definition of "jack of all trades" to rather rate overall CQC, mid range and [less so] long range potency; they're punishing characters with good neutrals. Roughly speaking, characters that rely on spacing/picking the right option at the right time to come out on top (and those tend to be mid range characters, but I didn't mean for that to be essential to that; Pikachu is an all sorts of a character and doesn't play anything like swordsmen).Disagree with just about everything in Shaya's grouping ...
And I never denied overwhelming bias
. I'm personally not too hyped about Pacman. Pick a character with multiple options strong enough to hit back Hydrant (in a single hit) and I'm wondering what else he has going for him.Destroyer of Worlds wasn't necessarily meant to be "bad designs 101", but I suppose I implied it as such enough that I should probably take some of the honest characters out of the category, as you suggested (maybe not Sheik, tbqh, not a toxic design but is still kinda absurd at this early stage of the meta). And I have played against Wario on wifi a tad, not really having issues hitting/punishing wario out of his bike with forward air or any special, but maybe your character's just inadequate
Strategic Niche needs the most work and I agree is extremely lazy.
LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MARTH BEING INADEQUATE.
Dancing Blade for some reason has 25% less lag when used in the air instead of the ground, allows him to short hop double aerial again (HOORAY, YES YES, ITS AMAZING, IM TELLING YOU). I could even see merit with Heavy Blade due to being able to SH Heavy Blade1 and land without lag and it's basically just an extra long range forward air, with the added extra option of being able to kill people at 50% with the 4th hit.
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I mean, if it helps you I could come up with a similar kind of grouping but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to post it here ;P
"My" character? I don't even have "a" character yet. I play Fox, Sonic, Wario, Morton, Pac-Man, Falco and Ganondorf in addition to the pocket Sheik and Lucario that nobody has a reason to not have. Thy cannot all be so "inadequate" that they can't punish a projectile that's rolling towards you from the other side of the stage with Wario jumping around somewhere else.And I have played against Wario on wifi a tad, not really having issues hitting/punishing wario out of his bike with forward air or any special, but maybe your character's just inadequate
The contrast in our opinions is always note-worthy (you tend to stray far from the American-grain) and hence I probably wouldn't mind seeing your rendition of "Pretty ass characters": (+every character you like shaya, 
)
Bike's buffed for sure though, I guess I'm just not too certain what comes out of it in a play to win scenario. Perhaps these wifi warios are choosing to tag along for the ride for way too long, relying on the bike's footsie beating armor to cheese most people and not adapting to ... things that hit above the ground.
I'll probably throw something together with a similar split of four-ish categories tomorrow after thinking about it a bit more rather than attempting to be symmetrical. I think a character like Ike is going to probably have a baseline match up spread against most of the cast without heavy variation (same with ROB), which doesn't really fit into what I think of heavies (squashing squishies) or DuckHunt/Robin/etc (making slow-ish characters cry)
(+every character you like shaya, )Bike's buffed for sure though, I guess I'm just not too certain what comes out of it in a play to win scenario. Perhaps these wifi warios are choosing to tag along for the ride for way too long, relying on the bike's footsie beating armor to cheese most people and not adapting to ... things that hit above the ground.
I'll probably throw something together with a similar split of four-ish categories tomorrow after thinking about it a bit more rather than attempting to be symmetrical. I think a character like Ike is going to probably have a baseline match up spread against most of the cast without heavy variation (same with ROB), which doesn't really fit into what I think of heavies (squashing squishies) or DuckHunt/Robin/etc (making slow-ish characters cry)
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Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Perhaps you should play against people who know the character better? Not like he'll see much investment though, he was already a niche before he was worse than Mario in terms of players.
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ThatLunaticFeline
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2014
- Messages
- 255
Man, Marth is GOOD. I KOd a Falcon from the edge of FD at 40% with tippered fsmash. That's absurd.
I can only see him getting better as time goes on especially when Smash Wii U comes out and c-stick aerials come into play. And let's just pray for all our sanity that some sort of Wavedashing mobility bug/trick doesn't get discovered else Marth will shoot right up to top tier.
I can only see him getting better as time goes on especially when Smash Wii U comes out and c-stick aerials come into play. And let's just pray for all our sanity that some sort of Wavedashing mobility bug/trick doesn't get discovered else Marth will shoot right up to top tier.
For what it's worth, I think Doc could end up better than regular Mario anyway. What's special about Mario? Not much. What's special about Doc? Killing you really really early.
His recovery isn't as abysmal that he's still screwed even if he has a mid air jump. I used to think it was worse than Mac's, but smart jump conservation seems to work out.
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Berserker.
:^)
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 18,990
Dude. I KO'd Bowser with a tipper fsmash around 55% from the edge of FD. Wtf
This guy is gonna be godlike in the Wii U version
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
There is that. He has most of Mario's fundamentals in terms of options and he has really early kill options. What COULD salvage him are a few things IMO
1. Customs for recovery
2. Better controller. Being able to mash B (or alternate between B and Y) for Doc Tornado could make it infinitely better for vanilla recovery
3. C Stick assists greatly in retreating Bairs and Doc's Bair is SUPER meaty
4. Tap Jump being okay to be left on allowing for Up+B OoS as it's like, Dolphin Slash tier.
I could see it too, honestly, but it really depends on how GC controller pans out for him.
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