Character Competitive Impressions

[Yonder]

A lot of stuff that came from Brawl was either nerfed or taken away completely so Luigi can't really boast about that.

And I'm pretty sure Luigi would prefer having his guaranteed Jab to Up-B back I feel.

Only really was guaranteed on Olimar and Ivysaur. Not too much luck on others. About the same as Smash 4. Actually in Smash 4 Luigi's Up B got a slight hitbox increase thanks to the patch...

 

[Pyr]

It was nerfed by 2 frames in startup, though. Brawl was hitbox out at frame 6. In S4, it's 8, so that kinda hurts it. Not sure on if there is any differences in the Jab ending lag, but those 2 frames don't help. =p

 

[deepseadiva]

So after the tedious process of condensing everyone's frame data into this: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-cheat-sheet-an-easy-to-read-player-resource.401369/ , I have some notes.

1. Everyone's goddamn specials frame data is missing.

Like I haven't yet figured out when Bouncing Fish comes out, or even Vanish. Or even things like Monkey Flip (frame 9 probably?)... But from what information I could gather that's not buried or missing:

• The entire cast is gifted in one way or another.

One thing that stood out to me is that there seems to be no hopeless characters on the roster. There looks to be two types of rough balancing: characters with range get slower moves, while the melee fighters get the faster moves.

We see speedsters like , , all gifted with sub-frame 3 jabs and tilts and the best grabs at frame 6.

Ranged characters like , , are generally slowed down. The cost of their disjoint being speed.

But that's all basic knowledge already, and something you notice as soon as you play of course. What's interesting is how these gifts are dispersed, maybe randomly, but really based on character design. Take Palutena for instance.

[collapse=Palutena]
Jab: 8
DA: 6 (Invincible on her shield, frame 4-16?)
Ftilt: 17
Utilt: 10
Dtilt: 14

Fsmash: 18
Usmash: 18
Dsmash: 17

Nair: 5
Fair: 9
Bair: 8 (Invincible on her shield, frame 3-11?)
Uair: 8
Dair: 10

Grab: 7
Dash Grab: 9
Pivot Grab: 10[/collapse]

Basically an ass moveset. A standing moveset that starts at 8 frames at the fastest. A bad character at face value, and that's currently most people's impressions in a customs-off environment. I believe she was built this way to counteract her notably diverse assortment of specials. She also makes up for her slow moves with a fast dash, and interestingly placed invincible moves.

Every character seems to have something given to them and it's hard to find a single character that isn't granted some amazing tools.

- rest.
- the Miis by virtue are entirely customizable and offer diverse combinations alone.
- fast jab, tilts, invincibility on upb.
- the potential to kill below 80% with some of the fast and strongest KO moves in the game.

I'm glad to feel like there's not a single character in the game I count entirely out.

That said, I do think some outstanding tools to have is a frame 3 or better jab, GTFO option like a quick nair or a Dolphin Slash or something, and a reliable recovery. If you lack those, or one of those, there's a hole in the character strategy and we'll see those characters filter out of tournaments as time goes on.

 

[Megamang]

@ deepseadiva I agree with your very last statement about the outstanding tools, I think the recovery is the most significant over time. When people get better at edgeguarding, if your recovery can be flowcharted or option-selected to death you probably aren't gonna make it far in a bracket. But whose recovery is that bad? Doc is pretty easy to gimp in my experience. Characters with momentum-boosting moves (Jump Kick, Monkey Flip, etc) combined with good DI should never really be knocked low enough to get gimped, except in outstanding circumstances.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Pretty dang sure Luigi's N-air was even more insane in Brawl. Y'all need to thank the good Mr. Sakurai for nerfing it or else D-throw to N-air is the new Hoo Hah.

We have D-throw to cyclone though. And Bair. Those are solid KO setups and are pretty much guarenteed. All we need now is more people crying about it and that would make it the new Hoo-hah. It doesn't matter if it's his Nair or something else.

 

[webbedspace]

Any remarks about this Diddy v. Dedede grand finals? (It's not that close but the Dedede is perhaps unexpectedly threatening.)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Any remarks about this Diddy v. Dedede grand finals? (It's not that close but the Dedede is perhaps unexpectedly threatening.)

Japan has always put Dedede in mid tier in this game, so maybe they were right. This game is still new whether we want to admit it or not. Too early for tiers.

 

[bc1910]

I guess Luigi's hoohaas are kept at bay by his crappy mobility. Unlike Diddy he doesn't have an incredibly easy time at setting up grabs (Luigi is probably average at getting grabs overall; his mobility is awful, but fireballs are good). It's rarer for Luigi to be in a position where he can get a kill off his grab simply because he's easier to keep out and can't force grabs so easily.

Of course it'll only take a few more tournament wins where "Luigi wins by Dthrow Down B omg so skilled /s" for people to start complaining.

 

[mimgrim]

They were way too good and now they're way too bad. Melee was the middle ground where without wavedashing and wavelanding, Falco spamming lasers like that would be more like Wolf spamming lasers or Luigi spamming Fireballs.

Wat.

I really wish people would stop talking/mention stuff/comparing stuff about past games (to now) in this thread because most people don't know what they are talking about when they talk about them. x_x

Melee Falco's aren't made godlike because of Wavedash, or Wavelanding. It's because of the heavy landing he has on lasers (just like in Brawl, they just go turned from godlike to super godlike because of the addition of a second laser) that gives him normal landing lag (jump, do nothing, land = normal landing lag) when landing while in the laser animation. Him "spamming" them would not be akin to Wolf or Luigi "spamming" their projectile because he still has heavy landing on his meaning basically no lag (like in Brawl) and is much much safer to "spam" whereas Wolf and Luigi have far more lag by comparison and now heavy landing on their projectiles.

>_>

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Honestly, Luigi's D-throw to entire moveset isn't something like Diddy's Hoohah, which turned an incredible character into a completely ridiculous character. Luigi's is like Ness's Back throw where it's a defining characteristic of the character, like Falcons speed or Mario's frame data or Bowser's damage output. If you take it away, you basically kill the point of the character. The fact that Diddy remains top tier is evidence that the nerf was necessary. Can the same be said if Luigi loses his Dthrow? Just food for thought.

 

[HeroMystic]

I would hardly say D-throw is a defining characteristic for Luigi. I could say Luigi losing his combo-breaking N-air would kill the point of the character, and I would say it's more important than D-throw because without it his disadvantaged state would be as bad as Fox's (and it's already pretty bad). Luigi isn't a character that is defined by one trait. He has frame data, strong damage per hit, potent kill setups, and a pretty good recovery. All of that sums up to a solid character, only held back by his abysmal air speed.

 

[extrasensory]

luigi's "hoo hah" is held back by only killing at like 110% and not even doing so consistently as you can fall out of it.

DDD is actually really good at camping the ledge for the entire match due to his multiple jumps + uair and can actually give characters trouble by playing this way but you need a lot of patience to play him like that. I think that the fact that people are doing decently with him speaks more about the game's overall balance than DDD's hidden potential.

 

[HeroMystic]

Oh, and can we please stop calling every kill set-up from a D-throw a hoo-hah?

 

[DunnoBro]

@ DunnoBro Do you think Duck Hunt might benefit from the implementation of Footstool Jablock combos? I'd imagine he'd be good at setting them up, and guaranteed Smashes would help his kill power considerably.

He doesn't have anything to lock with other than falling nair/first hit of dair. Both of which put him in a million years of endlag if he does them so close to the ground.

He actually has a consistent footstool set-up too, with zigzag anyway. Just mash jump instead of an attack when they get hit in, but he can't capitalize off of it at all.

 

[Antonykun]

Oh, and can we please stop calling every kill set-up from a D-throw a hoo-hah?

Hoohah=/= Downthrow up air (for everyone) but everyone wants to act like it is

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Japan has always put Dedede in mid tier in this game, so maybe they were right. This game is still new whether we want to admit it or not. Too early for tiers.

...Or maybe Japan is right and they've got a good grasp on the current tiers.

 

[Ffamran]

Wat.

I really wish people would stop talking/mention stuff/comparing stuff about past games (to now) in this thread because most people don't know what they are talking about when they talk about them. x_x

Melee Falco's aren't made godlike because of Wavedash, or Wavelanding. It's because of the heavy landing he has on lasers (just like in Brawl, they just go turned from godlike to super godlike because of the addition of a second laser) that gives him normal landing lag (jump, do nothing, land = normal landing lag) when landing while in the laser animation. Him "spamming" them would not be akin to Wolf or Luigi "spamming" their projectile because he still has heavy landing on his meaning basically no lag (like in Brawl) and is much much safer to "spam" whereas Wolf and Luigi have far more lag by comparison and now heavy landing on their projectiles.

>_>

What I talking about is how mobile he was in Melee and Brawl with Blaster. Now, it's just horrible since he shoots and is a sitting duck while Luigi can still weave out with lower end lag and not being a fast faller while Wolf already had his air speed to make things now as painful with end lag not to mention he has a bayonet to cover him if he gets too close.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

For all it's worth, Falco's Blaster is also unclankable, which is an uncommon projectile trait.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Since Mii Sword has started shedding his 'worst character' claim, I'm curious what the public MU opinion is for him (and/or those changed by tool dependency, like Gale Strike or Reversal Slash).

 

[Ffamran]

For all it's worth, Falco's Blaster is also unclankable, which is an uncommon projectile trait.

So is Fox's, Falco's Reflector - it's apparently both a reflect and projectile -, Thunder, fully charged Charge Shot, Aura Sphere, Sun Salutation, Shadow Ball, Thoron?, and Water Shuriken; I think Bowser's Fire Breath and Charizard's Flamethrower are too, but I don't know if they're considered projectiles along with Rosalina's default Star Bit. Someone mentioned that Link's Quickfire Bow and Toon Link's Piercing Arrows were transcendent, bit I'm not sure on them. Ness's PKT custom is also transcendent, right? The one that functions like Lucas's? I think Sheik's Needles are transcendent too along with Robin's Arcfire and Zelda's Din's Fire.

Stuff that isn't would be Mario and Luigi's Fireballs, uncharged stuff listed above, Gordon, Header, default PKT, Missiles, Phantom Slash, Vegetables, Lloid Rockets, Villager's Dash Attack and Slingshot?, PK Fire, Dr. Mario's Pills, Wario's Bike, the Link's Bows?, Can, Clay Shot, Wild Gunmen?, Pikmin, Bonus Fruit, Paralyzer, Thunder Jolt, Mega Man's lemons, Metal Saw, and Sonic.

I'm not sure on Villager's Tree and Bowling Ball, Crash Bomber, and a bunch more I probably don't know and don't remember.

Clanking Luigi's Fireballs doesn't stop him from running in and grabbing you, clanking Pikachu's Thunder Jolt is pretty much a waste of time considering Pikachu's fast and can throw out more TJs, while transcendent priority on Falco's does not really matter with the end lag. Shielding, avoiding, and even getting hit by his lasers even from across the stage is still punishable to Falco. The good thing about Falco's Blaster is because you can't clank it, then that means it's an annoying projectile to deal with off stage. But the on-stage game of pressuring from afar even if it's like Luigi's Fireball travel distance is something Falco would really like.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mii Brawler is probably tied with Sheik as the best character. But he is kinda boring and doesnt even have half her depth.

Disagree badly. For best character, check my username. #HooHah

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Since Mii Sword has started shedding his 'worst character' claim, I'm curious what the public MU opinion is for him (and/or those changed by tool dependency, like Gale Strike or Reversal Slash).

I'm curious too, but you can't have a public opinion on something the public has never seen before.

 

[Firefoxx]

Since Mii Sword has started shedding his 'worst character' claim, I'm curious what the public MU opinion is for him (and/or those changed by tool dependency, like Gale Strike or Reversal Slash).

Here's a comprehensive list of things I know about Swordfighter's place in the meta

1. Beats Diddy????????????????
2. Well, Trela won that one tournament with them...

Thats it. I will say that going from worst character in the game to actually being picked up by people is going to be difficult for Swordfighter. There is no established fanbase for the character so there aren't a ton of people rushing to use them now that they were buffed. And when you look at them on paper, the buffs don't look that special (which is an overarching theme of this patch). Public opinion probably won't change until someone pulls out a pocket Swordfighter against a fairly well know Diddy player and wins in a gif worthy fashion.

 

[Megamang]

Why would he beat diddy? Gimps?

 

[PUK]

So is Fox's, Falco's Reflector - it's apparently both a reflect and projectile -, Thunder, fully charged Charge Shot, Aura Sphere, Sun Salutation, Shadow Ball, Thoron?, and Water Shuriken; I think Bowser's Fire Breath and Charizard's Flamethrower are too, but I don't know if they're considered projectiles along with Rosalina's default Star Bit. Someone mentioned that Link's Quickfire Bow and Toon Link's Piercing Arrows were transcendent, bit I'm not sure on them. Ness's PKT custom is also transcendent, right? The one that functions like Lucas's? I think Sheik's Needles are transcendent too along with Robin's Arcfire and Zelda's Din's Fire it's not.

Stuff that isn't would be Mario and Luigi's Fireballs, uncharged stuff listed above, Gordon, Header, default PKT, Missiles, Phantom Slash, Vegetables, Lloid Rockets, Villager's Dash Attack and Slingshot?, PK Fire, Dr. Mario's Pills, Wario's Bike, the Link's Bows?, Can, Clay Shot, Wild Gunmen?, Pikmin, Bonus Fruit, Paralyzer, Thunder Jolt, Mega Man's lemons, Metal Saw, and Sonic.

I'm not sure on Villager's Tree and Bowling Ball, Crash Bomber, and a bunch more I probably don't know and don't remember.

Clanking Luigi's Fireballs doesn't stop him from running in and grabbing you, clanking Pikachu's Thunder Jolt is pretty much a waste of time considering Pikachu's fast and can throw out more TJs, while transcendent priority on Falco's does not really matter with the end lag. Shielding, avoiding, and even getting hit by his lasers even from across the stage is still punishable to Falco. The good thing about Falco's Blaster is because you can't clank it, then that means it's an annoying projectile to deal with off stage. But the on-stage game of pressuring from afar even if it's like Luigi's Fireball travel distance is something Falco would really like.

I clank once with bowling ball and but it beat my move, like i saw the sparkle, there were hitlag, and then the BB just went through. And you can clank with din's fire actually, but it's a secret.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Any remarks about this Diddy v. Dedede grand finals? (It's not that close but the Dedede is perhaps unexpectedly threatening.)

That doesn't link to a Diddy v. Dedede GF >: (

 

[Unknownkid]

That doesn't link to a Diddy v. Dedede GF >: (

http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/656502698?t=2h12m38s

Edit: Wow, Angel use Custom DK on Gunblade's DDD when he had the 2:0 lead in winners finals and lost 3:2 - Gunblade. What a comeback!

 

[Locke 06]

fully charged Charge Shot, Aura Sphere, Sun Salutation, Shadow ball, and Water Shuriken; Robin's Arcfire and Zelda's Din's Fire.

Wild Gunmen

List 1 is not transcendent. If they were, they couldn't eat projectiles, which they do. Fully charged water shuriken is transcendent along with wild gunmen.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Why would he beat diddy? Gimps?

Gale Strike is a neat little tool that does four nice things:

1) A transcendent projectile that destroys all non-transcendent projectiles (afaik) on contact (Including, but not limited to, Diddy's popgun and Banana peels).

2) Throws opponents into the air on contact (Or pushes them away via late windbox).

3) Shield-pokes while also dealing decent shield damage (~three = poke).

4) Comes out at just the right time to punish a spotdodge where your opponent expected a grab.


(1) Is an immediate plus against Diddy. (2) Beats out a high-recovery [monkey flip] and puts them in the position to follow-up with Sword's Fair. (3) Is very nice since it can force an aerial approach for characters who really don't want to be above/diagonally above Mii Sword (and you can just push them back out via Nair). (4) Is exceptional against Diddy's stupid fast grabs out of spotdodge.

All of these were true pre-106. Simply nobody cares.


Also there's Reversal Slash which is Mario's Cape vs banana peels/monkey flip if you want to just trip Diddy up, I guess.

 

[Ikes]

So is Fox's, Falco's Reflector - it's apparently both a reflect and projectile -, Thunder, fully charged Charge Shot, Aura Sphere, Sun Salutation, Shadow Ball, Thoron?, and Water Shuriken; I think Bowser's Fire Breath and Charizard's Flamethrower are too, but I don't know if they're considered projectiles along with Rosalina's default Star Bit. Someone mentioned that Link's Quickfire Bow and Toon Link's Piercing Arrows were transcendent, bit I'm not sure on them. Ness's PKT custom is also transcendent, right? The one that functions like Lucas's? I think Sheik's Needles are transcendent too along with Robin's Arcfire and Zelda's Din's Fire.

Stuff that isn't would be Mario and Luigi's Fireballs, uncharged stuff listed above, Gordon, Header, default PKT, Missiles, Phantom Slash, Vegetables, Lloid Rockets, Villager's Dash Attack and Slingshot?, PK Fire, Dr. Mario's Pills, Wario's Bike, the Link's Bows?, Can, Clay Shot, Wild Gunmen?, Pikmin, Bonus Fruit, Paralyzer, Thunder Jolt, Mega Man's lemons, Metal Saw, and Sonic.

I'm not sure on Villager's Tree and Bowling Ball, Crash Bomber, and a bunch more I probably don't know and don't remember.

Clanking Luigi's Fireballs doesn't stop him from running in and grabbing you, clanking Pikachu's Thunder Jolt is pretty much a waste of time considering Pikachu's fast and can throw out more TJs, while transcendent priority on Falco's does not really matter with the end lag. Shielding, avoiding, and even getting hit by his lasers even from across the stage is still punishable to Falco. The good thing about Falco's Blaster is because you can't clank it, then that means it's an annoying projectile to deal with off stage. But the on-stage game of pressuring from afar even if it's like Luigi's Fireball travel distance is something Falco would really like.

if falco's reflector is a projectile, can it be pocketed?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Disagree badly. For best character, check my username. #HooHah

Before sure.

Not now.

 

[Monk of MaZe]

Before sure.

Not now.

Well he is still really good. I don't know about the best but definitely one of the top-tiers or at least very high tiers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I never said Diddy was't top tier though soooooooooooooooo

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

While on the subject of Falco (mostly) I would like to put my input on him.

He isn't a bad character, the only thing he has bad is a neutral game. He has really good combos, one of the best b-airs in the game, really nice kill moves (also f-smash hits on the ledge and has good range), and can gimp excellently.

The Falcon vs. Falco MU I would say is easily in Falco's favor, since edge-guarding Falcon is so easy, plus falling speed + weight makes u-throw to u-air work more consistently (and kill earlier). Thats just one example, Falco is also fairly fast (like average) but his speed is perfect for his combos.

Falco isn't near top though, too many weaknesses. I would say mid tier, but not bottom tier like people place him right now.

Also, as much as I think Falcon is really good, I feel like he isn't. Falcon has a ton of not good MUs, even against lower tiers. For example, any character with a low duck is automatically bad for him, since 3/4 of his moves are avoided by ducking. (Jiggly, Kirby, Game and Watch mostly) and he can be extremely punished for it. He also struggles vs. floaty characters (Jiggly and Kirby come to mind, but a lot of others) since his combos don't work as well against them. His recovery is trash too.

Then again, the ducking/floatiness is a problem even more-so to Zero Suit Samus, but she is gonna be top tier no matter what as it is right now.

 

[san.]

Gale strike against aerial opponents lifts them up. I don't think it's too great for edgeguarding from my understanding of it so far (could change later), but if you short hop while moving forward, you have a better chance to combo into uair if it hits someone.

Here's a comprehensive list of things I know about Swordfighter's place in the meta

1. Beats Diddy????????????????
2. Well, Trela won that one tournament with them...

Thats it. I will say that going from worst character in the game to actually being picked up by people is going to be difficult for Swordfighter. There is no established fanbase for the character so there aren't a ton of people rushing to use them now that they were buffed. And when you look at them on paper, the buffs don't look that special (which is an overarching theme of this patch). Public opinion probably won't change until someone pulls out a pocket Swordfighter against a fairly well know Diddy player and wins in a gif worthy fashion.

Tiny Mii swordsman can combo dtilt to uair for a kill at ~80-90%, which is nice since there are so many ways to set up the dtilt among other kill setup scenarios. Tiny swordsman's combo game is quite good because of the better air speed, but I'm not sure if it makes up for 1/4 height's range difference. The dtilt and nair changes made 20% combos you need to struggle to pull off change into 30+% combos that are relatively easy to perform. The standard jab1->2->dtilt->dthrow->uair is like early 30% and that's easy to pull off now since dtilt can combo into stuff better instead of being a pseudo-string.

The only competitive players that I know used swordsman in tournament were Trela who won that tournament and DaPuffster who beat some good players or took off games in winners/grand finals.

 

[Trifroze]

Also, as much as I think Falcon is really good, I feel like he isn't. Falcon has a ton of not good MUs, even against lower tiers. For example, any character with a low duck is automatically bad for him, since 3/4 of his moves are avoided by ducking. (Jiggly, Kirby, Game and Watch mostly) and he can be extremely punished for it. He also struggles vs. floaty characters (Jiggly and Kirby come to mind, but a lot of others) since his combos don't work as well against them. His recovery is trash too.

I never got the ducking argument, if you're in a position to crouch you're in a position to do something much more optimal like attack or shield and punish, unless you have Kirby's crouch and Diddy's dtilt. I've never found this to be a problem. Something that's actually somewhat problematic for Falcon is ending animations and landing animations of moves that even larger characters like Yoshi, Ike and Peach have making Falcon miss grab and jab punishes, but that can be solved by proper timing.

What comes to floaty characters, they're harder to combo but easier to keep in the air when they're trying to land. It's a trade, although I do prefer to play versus fastfallers over floaties. I'm not sure what this matchup knowledge is based off of, I've only found Pikachu to be problematic out of the smaller characters and he's a grand example of a small character with shenanigan hurtbox animations who can also gimp Falcon, but he loses basically every exchange in the air while having problems dying early and killing late outside of gimps. Plus Falcon can punish quick attack whether he shields it or not, I think that's not particularly common although I could see the likes of ZSS, MK, Greninja, Mac, Fox and Sheik be able to do it as well.

Falcon's recovery is bad though and he'd probably be top 3 with a good one, but there's quite a lot of mixup you can do with second jump + uair and up b alone with their hitbox and maneuverability respectively. Whatever bad matchups Falcon will ultimately have I feel will revolve solely around his recovery weaknesses.

 

[Megamang]

I never got the ducking argument, if you're in a position to crouch you're in a position to do something much more optimal like attack or shield and punish, unless you have Kirby's crouch and Diddy's dtilt. I've never found this to be a problem. Something that's actually somewhat problematic for Falcon is ending animations and landing animations of moves that even larger characters like Yoshi, Ike and Peach have making Falcon miss grab and jab punishes, but that can be solved by proper timing.

What comes to floaty characters, they're harder to combo but easier to keep in the air when they're trying to land. It's a trade, although I do prefer to play versus fastfallers over floaties. I'm not sure what this matchup knowledge is based off of, I've only found Pikachu to be problematic out of the smaller characters and he's a grand example of a small character with shenanigan hurtbox animations who can also gimp Falcon, but he loses basically every exchange in the air while having problems dying early and killing late outside of gimps. Plus Falcon can punish quick attack whether he shields it or not, I think that's not particularly common although I could see the likes of ZSS, MK, Greninja, Mac, Fox and Sheik be able to do it as well.

Falcon's recovery is bad though and he'd probably be top 3 with a good one, but there's quite a lot of mixup you can do with second jump + uair and up b alone with their hitbox and maneuverability respectively. Whatever bad matchups Falcon will ultimately have I feel will revolve solely around his recovery weaknesses.

I have heard that pika is falcon's worst MU because of both gimping and his tiny stature. How tough would the shiek MU be if she camped with needles and crouch?

Crouch is great because it can suddenly become a shield as well, I believe in one frame, so spacing against it is hard. If you crouch below someones' grab, then you have a pretty good chance to be pretty hard to hit.

 

[Trifroze]

I have heard that pika is falcon's worst MU because of both gimping and his tiny stature. How tough would the shiek MU be if she camped with needles and crouch?

Needles can be punished from 1/3 FD away after shielding, and Falcon's dtilt outranges Sheik's ground options so I don't think crouching would be very useful for her. Pikachu might be Falcon's worst MU though, but we haven't covered the matchup yet on the Falcon boards so I'm not gonna speculate too much about it. Based on my experience it's not worse than -2 though, and not even.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that one reason why I don't think Falcon particularly cares about crouching is that his dash attack and bair still hit any crouch in the game, and bair is safe on shield against any character. Dtilt and falling dair (particularly crossup) are also genuinely good tools in neutral, however they're both risky on shield and can be punished by many characters, although not Kirby or Jigglypuff.

 

[Ffamran]

List 1 is not transcendent. If they were, they couldn't eat projectiles, which they do. Fully charged water shuriken is transcendent along with wild gunmen.

Really? People said Shadow Ball was transcendent and Indigo Jeans's frame data said (charged) Sun Salutation was.

if falco's reflector is a projectile, can it be pocketed?

No. It's probably one of the weirdest moves in the game. The Pits' Upperdash and Electroshock Arms perform a deflect when Reflector hits them and I think someone said some character's reflect, it might have been Mewtwo's Confusion, actually reflects Falco's Reflector, but I don't think it damages Falco at all.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So after the tedious process of condensing everyone's frame data into this: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-cheat-sheet-an-easy-to-read-player-resource.401369/ , I have some notes.

1. Everyone's goddamn specials frame data is missing.

Like I haven't yet figured out when Bouncing Fish comes out, or even Vanish. Or even things like Monkey Flip (frame 9 probably?)... But from what information I could gather that's not buried or missing

Depending on the character board, some people have the frame data for their character.