Character Competitive Impressions

[Teshie U]

confusion already does that while standing under battlefield platforms.

 

[Blobface]

For the purpose of testing something, I'd like to know: what move would be best at punishing moves with high shieldstun and high shield pushback*? Would Sheik's Needles work?

*some attacks are almost safe on block, but as far as I know no attack in the game gives the attacker a frame advantage over the blocker when blocked.

 

[OmegaBlue]

Um guys, I was just looking for a Smash tutor to help me with my character. Um, I only have Smash 3DS so if anyone is willing, please respond.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Can we think of Mewtwo as having the peach dilemma? As in he's a solid character who will beat most of the cast but loses to too many top tiers too hard to be viable alone? Bad matchups against aggressive pressure characters like shiek, fox, MK, Diddy and Pikachu does not seem like a good look at all with the way the meta is shaping up.

I really want Mewtwo to be good...

 

[L7 Zero Cool]

Guys, slightly off topic, but what are the best youtube pages for watching high level Smash 4 gameplay? I would like to get a good idea for how a character plays competitively at a high level but I'm way behind the 8 ball.

 

[Cassio]

Anyway, something I wasn't really considering with the Sheik nerf to bair is the ledge trump scenario. I guess she probably deserved it, her ledge trump bair was the easiest in the game to get and she was also the best off-stage trapper and had mobility and tricks to get the trump too. My immediate reaction to ledge trumping someone into bair at 120% and them not dying was a really big "oh... wow... uhh... great!" It's honestly IMO a big hit to her more so than the implication of just "losing a kill move" meant, she's now lost a really strong kill set up she was the best in the game at getting.

Diddy now just seems "fair", although the bull **** that exists due to the hitboxes/frame data on down tilt, forward air, up air and dash grab haven't changed. Diddy still seems like he's going to be shutting down most of the cast with forward air alone. It's noticeably less potent in killing but it's now keeping people closer to him all the time with what's the single best horizontal air poke in the game. Up Throw and Down Throw, as expected, are keeping follow ups real for even longer (up throw in particular, youch).
With his ability to slow the pace of the game down with fair, bananas and peanuts, all I'm seeing in the near future is smarter use of Diddy getting similar bottom line results (WINNING). Suddenly I feel like diddy is incentivized to use nair and bair too, both great moves and trying to play a footsie/mid-range game with all of his kit (why do I feel like ftilt is suddenly worthwhile?). Up air as unfortunately expected is still the neutral air + forward air + back air + up air that hits below you and now just reminds me of super zero suit samus up air that still maintains itself as a combo breaker and godlike juggle / trapping tool that just combos into itself FOREVER.

Although I feel like my Sheik is/was better than my Diddy, Sheik just doesn't seem as potent as Diddy still does... Back air nerfs seem to hit her harder than "less damage per hit but now combos from everything forever" alterations Diddy received.

When I heard about bair being nerfed, ledge trump bair was the first thing I thought of since it was her most reliable early kill set up (bair in general being her best early kill move). Now she really is going to struggle going for the kill, even offstage bair being a threat was important for other reasons.

Diddy seems to be in the same boat now? Not sure how reliable he will be at killing, but these two seem to be characters with good neutrals but have issues killing (that seems to be the design intention looking at specifics of what was nerfed at least).

 

[RedBeefBaron]

When I heard about bair being nerfed, ledge trump bair was the first thing I thought of since it was her most reliable early kill set up (bair in general being her best early kill move). Now she really is going to struggle going for the kill, even offstage bair being a threat was important for other reasons.

Diddy seems to be in the same boat now? Not sure how reliable he will be at killing, but these two seem to be characters with good neutrals but have issues killing (that seems to be the design intention looking at specifics of what was nerfed at least).

On a side note pikas kill set ups seem to be doing alright. Dtilt > Usmash =

I am so convinced that Pikachu is a serious candidate for best character right now. In about a month and a half tops people will be wishing they were complaining about Pikachu like they were complaining about Diddy and Shiek.

 

[Shaya]

I think Pikachu will be mostly remain in check still thanks to at the least. Not going ESAM on that (I'm sure he feels the amount of losing match ups are minimal) but I don't think Pikachu boasts much against either. Then you have lurking too (Peach/Wario historically poor; I've definitely heard Villager complaints from him, and eh I'm probably wrong on Megaman).

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waR9js3dabI

Uh-oh...

 

[Shaya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waR9js3dabI

Uh-oh...

Lol, I knew that implementation of stuns would come back to haunt us. ZSS can get double (or more) dsmashes or other things at certain percent because characters land on the ground while still in hit stun, and the only thing that stops you from restunning people is some flag that gets reset upon landing.

We're looking so Brawl right now.
And also another check against customs. Although I'm not too certain this is going to be some reliable multiple times per match type of thing.

 

[Ulevo]

Lol, I knew that implementation of stuns would come back to haunt us. ZSS can get double (or more) dsmashes or other things at certain percent because characters land on the ground while still in hit stun, and the only thing that stops you from restunning people is some flag that gets reset upon landing.

We're looking so Brawl right now.
And also another check against customs. Although I'm not too certain this is going to be some reliable multiple times per match type of thing.

Given the multiple amount of opportunities Pikachu has to set this up, and how useful and safe the moves used to set this up are, I have no doubt players like ESAM could abuse this rather consistently.

 

[Shaya]

I think the fact the distance you have to be at to get that thunder jolt being a completely free shield into kill-move punish which is unlike how Pikachu -ever- thunderjolts is what's stopping it from happening reliably (in other words it's not just a "hit someone with thunder jolt, gg"). I wasn't talking about the technical part of it, this is nothing new. ESAM invented the footstool quick attack lock in Brawl and was the only player to use it, the footstool set ups themselves are still finnicky.

 

[Ffamran]

What I meant was, DI comparatively limits Falco's Uthrow because you can just DI to prevent the laser from hitting you at all, which makes Falco's frame advantage significantly lower than Greninja's or Marcina's (because he spends time firing the blaster at nothing). So they're still in a bad position, it's just easier for them to escape potential followups purely from a frame data point of view. Falco's Up Throw is "laggier". And this is the issue with Mewtwo's Up Throw, too much endlag to really be threatening.

I'm not saying Falco's Up Throw isn't good, I think it's a great throw. I mean, you don't have THAT much ending lag from firing the blaster. It's just slightly laggier than other comparable throws.

Oh, well that makes sense though. At lower percents, the laser's probably going to hit, so it's not much of a big deal, but at higher percents, he might throw people high enough where it won't matter since they're that high and he can cover that distance quickly. Mid-percents, the percents where it's not high enough and where the laser can be DI'd easily is where Falco isn't going to get much, but then again, if Falco hits you like three times, he could shift that to the higher percent with a high throw not to mention his ability to cover vertical distances quickly. Adding customs, Fast Fire Bird might make it less of a problem since he could quickly rush towards where you're DI'ing and Falco Phantasm could work as well, but the end lag even when IAPed might be a problem.

Y'know, I'm starting to wonder what if Fox's lasers did knockback or pre-SSB4 Falco's lasers did knockback for throws. Fox's Blaster portion of his throws don't do much, right? They're like extra, inaccurate damage since Fox just clicks off three shots sporadically. He's not even aiming it correctly or lining the shots up which should be fine since his Blaster has little to no recoil. Hmm, if Fox had "normal" throws, instead... Never mind, he would have an incredible throw and grab game then.

 

[Cassio]

@ Shaya I think most of those (megaman included) could be discussed, except Rosalina (in particular) and maybe Sonic. Also I swear Lucina is Pikas hardest MU. (I mentioned before but for those yet to see, with Marth there was always the risk of getting hit by the sword but getting inside at least minimized the punish, having to navigate the full length of the sword is really scary when you can potentially die at 90%)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I wonder how this alleged infinite interacts with SDI in various directions. It seems likely to be finicky to that, but it also looks way too hard for me to have any easy way to test.

 

[David Viran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waR9js3dabI

Uh-oh...

An infinite darn. I've been trying something with zss's dsmash where you footstool out of it and they get knocked down and I've been trying to see if you can do a forced get up with paralyzer but I don't know and if you can it's going to be kind of hard.

 

[Nobie]

@ Shaya I think most of those (megaman included) could be discussed, except Rosalina (in particular) and maybe Sonic. Also I swear Lucina is Pikas hardest MU. (I mentioned before but for those yet to see, with Marth there was always the risk of getting hit by the sword but getting inside at least minimized the punish, having to navigate the full length of the sword is really scary when you can potentially die at 90%)

Honest question: do those minor Lucina buffs make the match significantly scarier in your opinion?

Also, is there a recovery lag formula on hit for when characters hit a shield? i recall it being tied to damage to some extent, and that Marth's sour hits are safer due to a special modifier. With Lucina having slightly more damage overall, does it even out that hit lag compared to Marth?

 

[|RK|]

Diddy and Sheik were (and still are) particularly unkind to heavies--a little more-so than most the other top characters. The heavies appreciate the prospective new environment slightly more than other characters.

Edit: It's also great news for Yoshi, who imo was the "top" character who suffered most against Sheik, and to a lesser extent Diddy.

Really? I imagined that the heavies survived pretty long against Sheik and Diddy anyways. I figured that they wouldn't appreciate being juggled more by the weakened Sheik/Diddy.

 

[thehard]

An infinite darn. I've been trying something with zss's dsmash where you footstool out of it and they get knocked down and I've been trying to see if you can do a forced get up with paralyzer but I don't know and if you can it's going to be kind of hard.

If we're talking about the same thing, that was patched out in the 3DS days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpHDN522MDo

 

[Ulevo]

So, not sure if anyone else noted this, but while goofing around with Mewtwo I noticed that his ledge get up can be punished basically for free. The invincibility frames wear off early before a shield can be buffered and it's super easy to punish.

Mewtwo for top tier.

 

[Nobie]

So, not sure if anyone else noted this, but while goofing around with Mewtwo I noticed that his ledge get up can be punished basically for free. The invincibility frames wear off early before a shield can be buffered and it's super easy to punish.

Mewtwo for top tier.

I definitely noticed this. I think it's actually because he hops up onto the ledge and so he's technically airborne for a bit before he can shield.

I get the feeling that this flaw will get patched out in the next update, if they're doing things like giving Yoshi a better ledge attack and Pikachu a more standardized ledge getup.

 

[Cassio]

Honest question: do those minor Lucina buffs make the match significantly scarier in your opinion?

Also, is there a recovery lag formula on hit for when characters hit a shield? i recall it being tied to damage to some extent, and that Marth's sour hits are safer due to a special modifier. With Lucina having slightly more damage overall, does it even out that hit lag compared to Marth?

Hard to say now, but I want to say no atm. Its obviously a buff and in the most objective sense makes the MU (and all of her MUs) better for her. But it doesnt change how the MU plays, but thats partly because it was already scary.

 

[Djent]

Stun Jolt is already kind of legit, but is it worth taking Meteor Quick Attack just for the lock? I'm not sure.

Also on the subject of Pikachu: Vex just beat UKL 2-0 on Clash's stream using Ganondorf. Dark Fists really is as good as @ Blobface was saying (it got at least 3 kills, the 4th I forget). @SolidSense's remarks about the margin of error in this MU were also on point.

 

[|RK|]

Is anyone watching this? Holy ****, Tweek.

 

[DunnoBro]

The infinite requires to use a really laggy move at point blank range next to your opponent to start, and to make pikachu's recovery and overall movement/approach options garbage.

Really not even a little concerned about this.

And all those even easier to do jab combos really broke the default meta, right? People really need to calm the **** down.

 

[David Viran]

If we're talking about the same thing, that was patched out in the 3DS days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpHDN522MDo

No I'm talking about on every character and just try to reach the ground and paralyzer in time after the footstool. Maybe it's better to footstool them out of the kb of dsmash.

 

[19_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waR9js3dabI

Uh-oh...

I wonder how this alleged infinite interacts with SDI in various directions. It seems likely to be finicky to that, but it also looks way too hard for me to have any easy way to test.

I won't lie that thunder wave look genuanly broken at first glance question is it this good in practice? Summoning @Thinkaman because he is better at this then I am.

Lol, I knew that implementation of stuns would come back to haunt us. ZSS can get double (or more) dsmashes or other things at certain percent because characters land on the ground while still in hit stun, and the only thing that stops you from restunning people is some flag that gets reset upon landing.

We're looking so Brawl right now.
And also another check against customs. Although I'm not too certain this is going to be some reliable multiple times per match type of thing.

Unlike brawl the worst case senario is that thunder wave just ends up being banned.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Whatever else you want to say about the balance patches we've had thus far, Sakurai's been pretty consistent about removing infinites and the like. Pika's infinite likely won't make it past June, regardless of how useful it is or isn't in practice.

 

[thehard]

Jesus Tweek makes Jr. look really really good. I can tell he's gonna be one of those long-term mid/low tier character specialists

Side B is really quite a great approach/fake-out tool and his aerials are so strong! He has a lot of good stuff going for him.

 

[Antonykun]

I think Pikachu will be mostly remain in check still thanks to at the least. Not going ESAM on that (I'm sure he feels the amount of losing match ups are minimal) but I don't think Pikachu boasts much against either. Then you have lurking too (Peach/Wario historically poor; I've definitely heard Villager complaints from him, and eh I'm probably wrong on Megaman).

Well seeing as I play both Pikachu and Villager I can say the MU is about even both characters have a lot of things the other one hates.
Pikachu:
Is unedguardable
is fast with fast moves
is borderline impossible to juggle
is small and doesn't give a flip about Lloyd

Villager:
is ungimpable
has a frame 3 lingering n-air to snipe QA
pockets thunderjolt
kills Pikachu noticeably earlier
has disjoints up the wazoo

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Mii Brawler is stupid discuss.....

 

[Antonykun]

Swordfighter is stupid discuss...

Seriously tho I'm loving these new buffs <3
I mean Swordfighter is still bad against shields but now I have a bigger incentive to use Swordfighter's normal in neutral more and be a bigger footsie player. Maybe Swordfighter might break out of Swordfighter tier one day

 

[thehard]

Someone in chat said there's a way to DI Helicopter Kick to avoid the final hit (which is the only hit that launches). Anyone know how? @ Jigglymaster ?

 

[DunnoBro]

I won't lie that thunder wave look genuanly broken at first glance question is it this good in practice?

No, I used this combination a lot a while ago. (just for the jab lock combo, not the stun lock as I didn't know about it at the time)

You have to literally throw out this laggier version of the move right next to them, hoping they drop their shield (maybe air dodge into the ground, but then at 40-60% heavy skull bash could probably do the job too) and not just keep it up and smash you afterwards.

Edit: also let me point out how idiotic attacking into shields like that is now with crap like dark fist, rising cyclone, and the ol' one-two around.

And meteor quick attack is ass. I actually got gimped consistently as pikachu, and falling bair is way less potent cause you can't come back from as far. I also had like no good movement or approach options and got cornered easily. For a character like pikachu, light with only decent kill moves and "Get off me" options, having no escape options is awful.

Stun jolt is great, but not because of this. The general regular combos it enables are why. (Especially against rushdown characters, though against mix-up/campers it's not so great)

It's great people are finding stuff out, but the fact people are calling "broken" honestly makes me feel like they're just quick to criticize customs in general.

Someone in chat said there's a way to DI Helicopter Kick to avoid the final hit (which is the only hit that launches). Anyone know how? @ Jigglymaster ?

I think DIng only up, and not up and away causes this. Not sure though, I just know this got me out sometimes and the times it didn't, the hit would register farther away from the blast zone so I'd live more often.

Skinny Mii brawler is way more of a concern than that jab lock crap above.

 

[thehard]

Puffster explaining Brawler's down throw to footstool, and also down throw to fastfall fair combo resets, neat stuff.

 

[Blobface]

Stun Jolt is already kind of legit, but is it worth taking Meteor Quick Attack just for the lock? I'm not sure.

Also on the subject of Pikachu: Vex just beat UKL 2-0 on Clash's stream using Ganondorf. Dark Fists really is as good as @ Blobface was saying (it got at least 3 kills, the 4th I forget). @SolidSense's remarks about the margin of error in this MU were also on point.

I still don't get why several Ganon's are using Flame Wave, but props to Vex for finally giving the move some proper exposure. The scariest thing though, is that's only half of what can be done with the move. It's an aerial that kills at 40% that beats out everything frame 4 or slower. There's no escaping the Damp Fists.

Pikachu vs Ganon becomes hilariously volatile with customs. Pikachu gets Heavy Skull Bash and Ganon gets Dark Fists, both of which punish mistakes hard. If Pikachu goofs up anything, he eats Dark Fists and dies at 30-40%. Ganon whiffs any laggy attack and he dies at 90%*. It's likely 50:50 just because both characters can wreck each other for even the tiniest of errors.

*Pikachu makes up for it by having a better neutral.

 

[DunnoBro]

As I've been saying, dark fist is without a doubt the only way ganon can be viable.

Dropkick is good, custom chokes are good, blade is usable. But fist takes away those "oh I'm ganon, so I'm screwed in this situation" and turns them into do or die situations where the match can be flipped on it's head.

It's also in general a great catch-all punish that fixes a lot of issues ganon had. (out of shield punishes, air dodge punishes, reactive roll punishes, etc)

 

[Iron Kraken]

From what I've experienced so far, I think the Diddy nerf is being underestimated.

Diddy kills like 30-40% later than he used to, and he also doesn't rack up damage as well as he used to (to the tune of about 15% overall I'd say). Basically Diddy has to work for about an extra 50% on each stock compared to what he used to. That also allows his opponents to spend much more time in rage mode than they ever did before. The down-throw nerf is also pretty big (especially for my character, who used to receive guaranteed Hoo-Hah KOs at certain %s, but not any longer).

The people acting as if this patch hits Diddy a little bit really aren't seeing it. Diddy got way worse. The only reason he's still a pretty good character is because he was broken before the patch.

 

[Balgorxz]

people freaking out about the infinite thing when it involves pikachu losing his best special move upb1, I'm pretty sure 80% of the pikachu mains won't even touch this because upb1 is way too good to sacrifice it for an infinite combo

 

[Jigglymaster]

Someone in chat said there's a way to DI Helicopter Kick to avoid the final hit (which is the only hit that launches). Anyone know how? @ Jigglymaster ?

that's impossible from what I understand. never experienced anything like that