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I'm highly impressed by your ability to kill off the top with MetaKnight from ground level with no follow-ups. Elaborate?
The difference between say, Ike and Mewtwo is that Ike's not from a fairly famous game while Mewtwo's from a famous franchise. Ike has his fans, but Mewtwo? Holy hell, man. Mewtwo is beloved by tons of people like Charizard. Why? Nostalgia from Pokémon Red and Blue. Mewtwo might end up not as great, but people will use Mewtwo a lot solely because of the history, popularity, and Mewtwo just seems cool and badass because of the stoic, darkness of things that seems to attract so many people and creates tons of gritty, edgy, and dark media.
No, his survivability is not okay because he's combo food and dies at like 80% to bread and butter set ups on most characters. You're honestly insane if you believe he'd be too good just by being given a weight increase.
In high level play, guarantees > risky set ups. He has plenty of decent mix ups already, down throw should not have been one of them. He basically can only reliably combo off of down tilt with the way his down throw is.
It doesn't matter how long the rolls are if the invincibility associated with those rolls is lacking or poorly distributed. In my experience I've been hit out of rolls, spot dodges and techs super frequently. Teleport is honestly **** in this game.
Uh. No follow ups? What.
I'm hard pressed to think of any bnb setups that are going to kill him at 80% outside of maybe some jab locks, because most bnbs don't lead to super powerful kill moves. In general I find I can live to like 100-110% most of the time, which isn't fantastic by itself, but I find that that 110% actually tends to last fairly long. Unlike Ganon, he doesn't just have to brute force his way in there, he can hang back with Shadow Ball and Confusion and pick his spots to attack a lot better.
Did you miss the last few pages of how much guaranteed stuff M2 gets after his Jab1? Considering he can jab into grab, if he could true combo that into much else it'd probably be kinda busted.
True, though I haven't personally seen anything that really stands out to me to suggest his invincibility is inordinately bad. Aren't all rolls and spot dodges almost the same in this game in terms of invincibility frames? Shaya posted something about that a long time ago.
It's good but it's not a roll and shouldn't be used like one. It can still get you out of a lot of juggle situations and it's a very safe way to get back to the ledge.
You're kidding right? Look at Luigi. Or Mario. The stuff they get off of a throw is far greater than anything Mewtwo has, and they have a lot of options to nail those grabs without all the problems Mewtwo has.
It's risky enough considering you have no guaranteed reward from it. Why would you go for a read out of a 9% down throw that will likely result in an aerial trade when you can go for a throw at 10% that leads in to an edge guard or a juggle? You won't.
Yeah but they don't have projectiles that kill, kill throws, great pokes, or as safe of a recovery. No one is claiming Mewtwo has the best combo throw in the game, but he's got some solid tools.
Mewtwo's most likely follow-ups after a Dthrow (Fair, Uair, FSmash, USmash) rarely trade. Also, yes, I'm usually willing to take that risk, because after Dthrow Mewtwo is in advantageous position. Statistically speaking that interaction is more likely to work out in my favour. Usually the "worst" result is that the opponent simply gets away.
They have kill throws, and there recovery is reasonably the same. Mewtwo can get the ledge easier, but he has a harder time getting on the stage once he's at the ledge than either of them.
What I meant by trading is that you're trading the damage you gained (9% from down throw) for the retaliation you'll receive from the incoming aerial that stuffs any follow up you attempt. And no, the worst case scenario (and common one) is that you down throw, go for a follow up, and get hit. You're not at a frame advantage. Considering Mewtwo's up air and up smash, up throw is a better option since it allows you to juggle.
I guess their Bthrows can kill, but not nearly as well as Mewtwo's Uthrow. He obviously has a number of other advantages that they don't. The comparable example is really Ganon, who does have better throw combos, but he has to work a LOT harder for those grabs.
You're ARE at frame advantage (you can act long before they get out of hitstun, just not quite enough to land a guaranteed hit) but the important thing is that you have more options available to you. You can shield, and you have all of your normals available to you. Your opponent can only airdodge, double jump, or do an aerial. You can also dash, giving you more control over your spacing than your opponent has.
I find SH confusion to be useless if the opponent is grounded because Mewtwo just ends up missing the move due to confusion's rising Mewtwo up a bit before hitting.
Regarding Luigi, he has guaranteed kills out of his down throw. Like a lot of them.
Coming from someone who doesn't main Dedede, I would think his problem is similar to Ike in that he has a 'decent' kit with a lot of bad match ups. I can't imagine his neutral being that bad. His forward tilt is incredibly big and his jab seems decent, and jab 2 leads to a grab combo. Multiple jumps should help the neutral game also.
At close range he can't do much, nair has 7 frames of startup and tiny hitboxes so it usually won't break combos. Fair has the same startup with a better hitbox and can sometimes be used to break horizontal combos. What comes to recovering and landing, he's probably one of the best at. His fastfall speed is decent (same as Marth, better than Pikachu, Mario and Sonic for instance) and teleport is good for both purposes as long as you hit the ground / snap to the ledge with it. Getting off the ledge isn't too hard either, as ledgejump + teleport either diagonally or directly down to the stage is an alternative option.
I think the only real problem is that several characters that could do fine approaching him (yoshi, zss, fox, sheik, diddy, blah blah) have just enough projectile threat to force him to approach. The projectiles are quite low commitment and force dedede into positions where they can suddenly switch gears to offense. If they didn't open you up they scurry off and put the process back in place.
His neutral is pretty bad. Ftilt looks a lot scarier than it is, it has surprisingly far out hurt boxes and unless spaced perfectly often ends up missing hits and doing 2-7% damageish. That might fly for a hit from sheik but dedede needs more. It also is unsafe on shield and in some cases on whiff (hi sonic!).
Unfortunately for mewtwo there's too much rnd lag agter uthrow for any follow ups. His jump is high but it's rather slow. So no uthrow shenanigans. Percents don't matter.
Well, some of those characters have useful guaranteed followups. Greninja actually gets Uthrow -> Uair as a true combo from about 25% to 75-95% (character dependent) on most of the cast. You can chase their DI and true combo it every time as well. It doesn't work very well online but it's a fantastic asset otherwise. I don't know how DI affects Marcina, but they can true combo Uthrow -> Uair for quite a long time, and of course we all know about Uthrow -> Up B which starts being safe on hit around the time Uthrow -> Uair stops working.
Kind of disappointing that Mewtwo's teleport is so slow in this game. When i learned we were actually gonna get the character fast and confusing teleport shenanigans was the first thing i thought of. I'm hoping that once his meta develops people will learn ways to implement teleport for things other than landing and recovery but from what I'm hearing that may not be too likely. At least the jab 1 setups are legit, though.
Wasn't it mentioned that U-throws are more difficult to DI because they're mostly 90 degree "moves"? Even if they're easy to DI, it's the situation of dealing with a character who can jump right next to you. Falco shouldn't even jump immediately after the throw because of his air speed against certain characters such as floaties or at higher percents, instead he should rely on his faster - in comparison to his air speed - ground mobility to position himself. The laser is just extra credit and a punish at later percents.
Thats how you're really supposed to handle the 90 degree U-throws.
What I meant was, DI comparatively limits Falco's Uthrow because you can just DI to prevent the laser from hitting you at all, which makes Falco's frame advantage significantly lower than Greninja's or Marcina's (because he spends time firing the blaster at nothing). So they're still in a bad position, it's just easier for them to escape potential followups purely from a frame data point of view. Falco's Up Throw is "laggier". And this is the issue with Mewtwo's Up Throw, too much endlag to really be threatening.
As far as I can tell, the late hit has a smaller hitbox than the strong hit now rather than a bigger one, but it's the kind of thing we should just wait for the data dump to confirm imo. He can still has enough disjoint to kick Bob-ombs without getting hit at any rate, and fair never made his legs intangible.
I've actually been thinking about this when it comes to Mewtwo, not so much in terms of breaking the shield, but damaging it enough to allow for shield pokes. Specifically, what I'm think about it using Shadow Ball to weaken shields and then use down tilt and angled forward tilts to "sweep the leg."
I truly believe that when Diddy's meta really gets going he will regain his position in the top five and possibly the top three. Bananas in particular will become absolutely terrifying again once the remaining Diddy players master all the options it gives us. I watched the streams of bigger tourneys often pre patch and even though Diddy was the most common character, you would rarely ever see a Diddy with banana setups and control that was even close to what it could be. Because why bother to learn that stuff? He had Brawl MK normals.
