Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

I would say Donkey Kong in customs environment would have the most noticeably abusive match ups thus far.
Donkey Kong vs Little Mac is significantly more disgusting than any match up I've seen in this game. Mac's forced to approach, DK outranges him significantly, charged storm punches kill mac at like 20-30%; even on "whiff". Down-B is nasty. Oh and then there's up-b.

Who cares about MK being able to jump jump time out (honestly I don't think it's that bad, but I digress).
He still lacks safety on shield. He still lacks the range. Little Mac will take your landing dash attack gambit and answer with up-b and it will win in that interaction 100% of the time (well, Mac's up-b beats a lot of things, 100% of the time, except not doing anything of course, but who's going to do that?) [note: Little Mac dies even when he beats everything after up-bing against DK]

But yeah, customs DK makes many characters look like trash.

ZSS or Sheik vs are some of the worst match ups I've seen in customs off.

 

[Ffamran]

This gave me a mental image of Mario with Ganondorf's U-Air.
*shudders*
In any case, I'm fairly confident that all of the moves listed either knock you upwards anyway or knock you at the Sakurai Angle. If any of these characters had Ganon's U-air they'd be so far beyond anything we've ever seen that we'd need to make up an entire new tier, XXX Tier.

Technically, Captain Falcon has Ganondorf's Uair.

Yeah, it's just that Uair's cover arcs and from the front, they'll usually knock people forwards, from the top, upwards, and from the back, backwards. I was thinking of this when I watched the recently uploaded videos on VGBC of GimR' Falco and he used a lot of Uairs which then reminded me of Pon using Ganondorf's reversed Uairs one of which I think caused someone to "slide" on the ground. Hell, for all we know, these characters can stage spike by using a reverse Uair. They'll go out, feinting the follow up, cross over, and BOOM!, reverse Uair stage spike. It could work, but it needs to be proven first.

 

[Teshie U]

What does down B do to little mac?

Custom DK does kind of force you to have a competent air game, though I don't see what DK can do against a little mac thats willing to sit across the stage and shield the windboxes.

Little Mac might truly wind up being the worst with customs. Windboxes are a sad sad story for him.

 

[Forty4]

On the talk of Custom DK, is Kong Cyclone the only custom that makes him good, or are there other customs that improve DK?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On the talk of Custom DK, is Kong Cyclone the only custom that makes him good, or are there other customs that improve DK?

Storm Punch (or whatever the one with a windbox is called) is hilarious because lol windboxes. Jumping Headbutt also looks interesting.

 

[Unknownkid]

What does down B do to little mac?

Custom DK does kind of force you to have a competent air game, though I don't see what DK can do against a little mac thats willing to sit across the stage and shield the windboxes.

Little Mac might truly wind up being the worst with customs. Windboxes are a sad sad story for him.

It isn't just the wind box. It is a combination of a Wind Box, Two Hits -Beginning and Ending, Super Armor during the vortex and No lag if DK lands properly.

Little Mac needs to endure/airdodge the first hit without DI downward and counter/Up B the second hit imo. But overall, I feel he is screwed unless someone knows an Anti "WillDK" custom set for Little Mac.

On the talk of Custom DK, is Kong Cyclone the only custom that makes him good, or are there other customs that improve DK?

Storm Punch is good and Fire Slap is powerful and useful as an Anti Air Punish. There is also Jumping Headbutt as an approach option.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Anyone with a strong windbox becomes cancer to me, I hate dealing with that.
I thought Gust cape and High pressure Fludd were strong. Then someone actually used them on me. I hate windboxes, suddenly I'm further guessing how to recover, because now you can't risk being hit and just Up-B again because the windbox didn't give it back...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think the more the custom meta develops the more we will learn how to deal with certain moves. So it's going to take a while to get accustomed to things. Who knows in a month what the broken custom will be.

 

[meleebrawler]

Lemons reflect Gordos...eventually.

Basically, an individual Lemon won't knock a Gordo back, but enough of them will, so it's not quite so cut and dry. Granted, this is a way better situation for Mega Man than how it was pre-patch anyway.

The arm cannon hitbox on lemons will always reflect Gordos though.

It must also be noted that unless the move deals 2% or more, it will NEVER bounce a gordo
back (except maybe against an inert gordo that Dedede failed to launch properly?). Sheik can throw
five needles at it if she wants; none of them will bounce the gordo back.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Also worth noting: you can reflect gordo using Luigi's Taunt. They weren't kidding when they said EVERYTHING would get a Gordo huh...

 

[Kofu]

Also on the topic of DK's customs: Stubborn Headbutt has frame 1 Super Armor. It's a slow attack, but that's handy.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik's needles don't stop the gordos though (or at least mildly staled ones) :<

 

[Lavani]

Regular needles don't, but the close hit on Penetrating Needles does 2.2%.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I would say Donkey Kong in customs environment would have the most noticeably abusive match ups thus far.
Donkey Kong vs Little Mac is significantly more disgusting than any match up I've seen in this game. Mac's forced to approach, DK outranges him significantly, charged storm punches kill mac at like 20-30%; even on "whiff". Down-B is nasty. Oh and then there's up-b.

Who cares about MK being able to jump jump time out (honestly I don't think it's that bad, but I digress).
He still lacks safety on shield. He still lacks the range. Little Mac will take your landing dash attack gambit and answer with up-b and it will win in that interaction 100% of the time (well, Mac's up-b beats a lot of things, 100% of the time, except not doing anything of course, but who's going to do that?) [note: Little Mac dies even when he beats everything after up-bing against DK]

But yeah, customs DK makes many characters look like trash.

Customs DK be like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDaWYMrOcY

RIP Mac


Also notable things that can't reflect Gordos would be Fox lasers, Sheik Needles, Scalding FLUDD, maybe Bowser/Zard flamethrowers, Fast Fireballs/Capsules (?)

Basically those really, really weak damage projectiles (most of which are rapid fire or multi-hitting moves).

Most jabs can reflect them now though :/

 

[Ffamran]

Also worth noting: you can reflect gordo using Luigi's Taunt. They weren't kidding when they said EVERYTHING would get a Gordo huh...

It'd be a funny way to play soccer/football. Have two or 6 Luigis got at it with Triple D being the referee or something.

So, I guess Greninja could reflect Gordo with Up Taunt? That would be hilarious and awesome since it would mean Greninja has to have the right timing and the right angle of Gordo bouncing. Falco's Blaster reflecting Gordo is kind of trolly. I heard you thought my Blaster sucks. THINK AGAIN, SUCKA! Also, it's basically a free punish for a Gordo-happy/spammy Triple D, especially at the beginning of the match.

 

[Unknownkid]

I think the more the custom meta develops the more we will learn how to deal with certain moves. So it's going to take a while to get accustomed to things. Who knows in a month what the broken custom will be.

Exactly. From what we have seen and how it is being used, Kong Cyclone seems ridiculous! But once you understand the frame data part of the move, it is doable perhaps beneficial to the victim than DK. Now look at the frame data for Kong Cyclone

Kong Cyclone (aerial) - because DK will mostly use KC in the air.
Frame 4- 6: 3% 50b/40g 75°
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 100f/30w 130° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash Ground-Target-Only
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 100f/1w 90° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 90b/50g 140° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 70b/50g 220° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 41-41: 12% 55b/80g (KO@ 180%) 62° 1.2-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
Max Damage: 15%
Begins super armor on real frame 15
Ends super armor on real frame 36

This means you have about 15 frames to challenge KC before the super armor kicks in (KC does not have invincible frames on startup) and 5 frames to damage DK before he smacks you again.

So as Kirby, I can potentially trade my Dair with KC or ride the cyclone and either Charge/Release my Hammer or activate Stone when the time comes. Or Up B with Luigi/Jigglypuff if you believe you can land safely. I know... Easy said than done but I have seen in a tournament (I believe it was Shockwave) where Luigi Green Missile'D KC and killed DK. I am looking for the video right now but my theorycraft is possible.

Personally, I am more worried about Penetrating Needle, Ice Ball Luigi, or Pacman's Meteor Trampoline over anything.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So uhm i just came back from the online ladder and once again came by the annoying ass samus to Mega man MU

We agreed on customs being allowed and durring that time i learned that relentless missles super missle variant beats more than 3 lemon shots (i think) ontop of standard sticky bomb.

So yeah thats somthing i guess.

Thank you jesus.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Just landed a Wolf Flash spike in a ranked match. 'Twas beautiful. I don't really see the disadvantage with that custom (unless someone can point one out).
And I like twisting fox. Gets the same distance as regular up b and that thing kills incredibly early. Super valuable for Fox. Sure, it has startup, but the hitbox is the size of Smart Bomb so I'm okay with it. And the hitboxes last forever, so I think it's best application is destroying low recoveries. So many stage spikes man.

 

[moofpi]

Falco's Blaster reflecting Gordo is kind of trolly. I heard you thought my Blaster sucks. THINK AGAIN, SUCKA! Also, it's basically a free punish for a Gordo-happy/spammy Triple D, especially at the beginning of the match.

Yeah but I still usually use the Reflector for the enhanced speed and damage of the reflected Gordo.

But his blaster has some good gimping uses.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah but I still usually use the Reflector for the enhanced speed and damage of the reflected Gordo.

But his blaster has some good gimping uses.

I meant at range. If a Gordo is launched right from the start, then Falco can use Blaster to sent it back from afar, but he needs to be on point since lasers don't have a wide hitbox like Reflector does.

Just landed a Wolf Flash spike in a ranked match. 'Twas beautiful. I don't really see the disadvantage with that custom (unless someone can point one out).
And I like twisting fox. Gets the same distance as regular up b and that thing kills incredibly early. Super valuable for Fox. Sure, it has startup, but the hitbox is the size of Smart Bomb so I'm okay with it. And the hitboxes last forever, so I think it's best application is destroying low recoveries. So many stage spikes man.

Maybe the the weaker knockback from not sweet-spotting it and maybe because Fox is in the air meaning that unlike Fox Illusion, someone could bait it out and hit him in the air. Eh, I don't know.

 

[Teshie U]

Exactly. From what we have seen and how it is being used, Kong Cyclone seems ridiculous! But once you understand the frame data part of the move, it is doable perhaps beneficial to the victim than DK. Now look at the frame data for Kong Cyclone

Kong Cyclone (aerial) - because DK will mostly use KC in the air.
Frame 4- 6: 3% 50b/40g 75°
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 100f/30w 130° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash Ground-Target-Only
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 100f/1w 90° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 90b/50g 140° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash
Frame 15-39: [0%]x7 70b/50g 220° 0.1-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Slash Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 41-41: 12% 55b/80g (KO@ 180%) 62° 1.2-Hitlag 0.0-SDI
Max Damage: 15%
Begins super armor on real frame 15
Ends super armor on real frame 36

This means you have about 15 frames to challenge KC before the super armor kicks in (KC does not have invincible frames on startup) and 5 frames to damage DK before he smacks you again.

So as Kirby, I can potentially trade my Dair with KC or ride the cyclone and either Charge/Release my Hammer or activate Stone when the time comes. Or Up B with Luigi/Jigglypuff if you believe you can land safely. I know... Easy said than done but I have seen in a tournament (I believe it was Shockwave) where Luigi Green Missile'D KC and killed DK. I am looking for the video right now but my theorycraft is possible.

Personally, I am more worried about Penetrating Needle, Ice Ball Luigi, or Pacman's Meteor Trampoline over anything.

Also worth noting is that its just super armor. You can still grab him. In fact most (all?) command grabs result in destruction for Donkey Kong. Simply throwing out a grab box and letting DK pull you in is just free money. If he is trying to autocancel on a platform you are on, this even works with regular grabs.

I'm also pretty sure the autocancel happens after frame 40, all fast characters can easily shield and then punish his landing. If you have a quick/multihitting move, you can also just jump into it after the first hit and mash it out (sonic can do this with forward air, and i assume sheik's upair will do the same).

There are some truly nasty things you can do to DK.

 

[Locke 06]

There really aren't many command grabs in smash bros. Yoshi, Ganondorf, Robin, Wario, Bowser, Falcon, Lucario*, Kirby, D3, Diddy. 10/52 characters. And I feel weird including Falcon and Lucario because Falcon's up-B might jump out and get windboxed off stage while Lucario's grab box is super small.

*: Lucario's force palm does not grab in the air.

 

[Unknownkid]

Also worth noting is that its just super armor. You can still grab him. In fact most (all?) command grabs result in destruction for Donkey Kong. Simply throwing out a grab box and letting DK pull you in is just free money. If he is trying to autocancel on a platform you are on, this even works with regular grabs.

I'm also pretty sure the autocancel happens after frame 40, all fast characters can easily shield and then punish his landing. If you have a quick/multihitting move, you can also just jump into it after the first hit and mash it out (sonic can do this with forward air, and i assume sheik's upair will do the same).

There are some truly nasty things you can do to DK.

Good point. I left out Regular Grab because most DK players (like DKwill) will like to carry you up to the air where your "options" are limited. DKWill understand how KC is similar to Brawl Up-B, he can autocancel without a platform and will normally toss an attack or dodge. Yep... Command Grabs can beat it. Apparently, Kirby's Leaping Inhale result into a SD for DK but I have not seen nor done it myself. Yeah... I realize about Multiple Hits after my post. Thank you for the additional information.

Now tell me the secret to beating Rosalina's Luma Warp with Shooting Star set.

Wait, does Lucario's Command Grab work in the air?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Now tell me the secret to beating Rosalina's Luma Warp with Shooting Star set.

If your good with your fingers sabotage can always be a solution.

 

[Shaya]

That initial hitbox probably is the most important piece of information for anyone. How big is it, where is it centred on (what's the blind spots for it as a move). People tend to get caught up by messing up their 'strings' so that when their moves whiff and get punished/trades with it, they cry foul without properly adapting (it is a very annoying part of the move though).

I love how with G&W i've clutched through an up smash while standing inside the entire move with what's obviously a smaller punish window than I thought... but only one out of every three tries though~

 

[Project Quarantine]

There really aren't many command grabs in smash bros. Yoshi, Ganondorf, Robin, Wario, Bowser, Falcon, Lucario, Kirby, D3. 9/52 characters. And I feel weird including Falcon and Lucario because Falcon's up-B might jump out and get windboxed off stage while Lucario's grab box is super small.

 

[Teshie U]

There really aren't many command grabs in smash bros. Yoshi, Ganondorf, Robin, Wario, Bowser, Falcon, Lucario, Kirby, D3. 9/52 characters. And I feel weird including Falcon and Lucario because Falcon's up-B might jump out and get windboxed off stage while Lucario's grab box is super small.

I was just pointing out that there are many ways to deal with it. Having a command grab is a godsend for characters that might otherwise not have a good option to deal with DK. Robin lacks low lag projectiles, Ganon lacks quick multihit moves, DDD will probably get slaughtered anyway, but inhale will help i think.

You forgot King Diddy Kong

Autocancelling requires a platform. It can be the main platform, but as I said. Being level with the platform he is trying to land on lets you use regular grabs to get him and they wont be cancelled because he is pulling you down and not up/off the ground.

 

[Unknownkid]

If your good with your fingers sabotage can always be a solution.

Yeah... that seems to be the case. Luma Warp greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. If you knew it was coming you, can potentially knock Luma out the stage or attack Rosalina directly. Luma's Instant Transmission distance is half of FD right? Hmm...

Well, @thehard made a thread about countering certain powerful Custom Moves - http://smashboards.com/threads/custom-move-spotlights.395255/ so I will venture over there and leave this thread theory-free.

Autocancelling requires a platform. It can be the main platform, but as I said. Being level with the platform he is trying to land on lets you use regular grabs to get him and they wont be cancelled because he is pulling you down and not up/off the ground.

Diddy? You mean P.Diddy? I don't believe any of the Mii Fighters have a command grab, bro.

Joke aside... I see what you mean now.

 

[Locke 06]

Diddy Kong has now been added to my command grab list. Also, Lucario cannot command grab in the air... I admittedly played too much Brawl minus pre-smash 4. ... So asterisk'd. Everyone else has an aerial command grab.

Also, ice customs seem to have an effect on super armor. It's really unclear, but the Mega Man boards found something with Ice Slasher and super armor.

 

[NairWizard]

Now tell me the secret to beating Rosalina's Luma Warp with Shooting Star set.

This man speaks the truth. DK? What DK? Let's talk about Rosalina.

I Quick Attacked to land, and my opponent predicted my landing and used Luma Warp into f-smash from across the stage. I literally put down my controller to think about what I was going to do on the next stock.

Rosalina is seriously harder than Diddy ever was. I keep scratching my head as to what I'm supposed to do against a character who takes this much stage control so easily for free. Her ledge pressure is amazing (getting off the ledge vs. a Rosalina who knows what she's doing is a nightmare), she can reset situations with Luma quickly, and she has tons of KO power.

Sheik's Penetrating Needles better not let me down at the next smashfest. I have high hopes, but, this character probably singlehandedly shuts down a portion of the cast into nonviability to be honest. I think quite highly of customs Rosalina.

 

[Smog Frog]

the secret to beating that set is sabotage

but real talk act like rosalina doesnt exist; after all, you're just fighting luma. once you focus on luma instead of rosalina i feel the matchup becomes much easier.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This man speaks the truth. DK? What DK? Let's talk about Rosalina.

I Quick Attacked to land, and my opponent predicted my landing and used Luma Warp into f-smash from across the stage. I literally put down my controller to think about what I was going to do on the next stock.

Rosalina is seriously harder than Diddy ever was. I keep scratching my head as to what I'm supposed to do against a character who takes this much stage control so easily for free. Her ledge pressure is amazing (getting off the ledge vs. a Rosalina who knows what she's doing is a nightmare), she can reset situations with Luma quickly, and she has tons of KO power.

Sheik's Penetrating Needles better not let me down at the next smashfest. I have high hopes, but, this character probably singlehandedly shuts down a portion of the cast into nonviability to be honest. I think quite highly of customs Rosalina.

don't be suck a negetive nelly we just need time people will learn where they should be when and where.

@ Smog Frog Thats really bad advise its the fact that it feels like your fighting 2 that rosa's a problem ingore either and your gunna end up in a bad spot.

 

[Smog Frog]

don't be suck a negetive nelly we just need time people will learn where they should be when and where.

@ Smog Frog Thats really bad advise its the fact that it feels like your fighting 2 that rosa's a problem ingore either and your gunna end up in a bad spot.

rosa's normals on her own are actually pretty mediocre; its luma that makes them dumb. just feel like its luma your fighting. after all, its luma's normals that are ********, not rosa's.

 

[NairWizard]

rosa's normals on her own are actually pretty mediocre; its luma that makes them dumb. just feel like its luma your fighting. after all, its luma's normals that are ********, not rosa's.

It's both combined, but whether you ignore Luma or Rosalina depends on your character. Typically you need to consider both Rosalina and Luma together to fight them. Diddy Kong can ignore Luma and go for Rosalina. Pikachu can ignore Rosalina and go for Luma. Sheik has to consider both of them in her strings. Just three examples of very different playstyles vs. the same character.

I consider myself fairly adept at fighting non-customs Rosalina.

Luma Warp is a whole different game, though. Shooting Starbit is good, though not great because projectile camping in general is pretty weak in this game, but the real game-changer is Luma Warp. Giving KO confirms to a character like Rosalina is a big, big deal. Spacing around it is difficult because of the amount of space that R&L control together.

Light at the end of the tunnel, though, is that paralyzing/penetrating customs are pretty good for fighting R&L, and many characters do get those through customs.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It's both combined, but whether you ignore Luma or Rosalina depends on your character. Typically you need to consider both Rosalina and Luma together to fight them. Diddy Kong can ignore Luma and go for Rosalina. Pikachu can ignore Rosalina and go for Luma. Sheik has to consider both of them in her strings. Just three examples of very different playstyles vs. the same character.

I consider myself fairly adept at fighting non-customs Rosalina.

Luma Warp is a whole different game, though. Shooting Starbit is good, though not great because projectile camping in general is pretty weak in this game, but the real game-changer is Luma Warp. Giving KO confirms to a character like Rosalina is a big, big deal. Spacing around it is difficult because of the amount of space that R&L control together.

Light at the end of the tunnel, though, is that paralyzing/penetrating customs are pretty good for fighting R&L, and many characters do get those through customs.

and luma still dose not take kindly to explosive projectiles as few as there are.

 

[FullMoon]

Custom Rosalina would be a complete nightmare for Greninja if it wasn't for the fact that Shifting Shuriken has a piercing property and can setup into a combo that kills Rosalina at 70% with no rage while all Luma can do is watch. I actually think Shooting Starbit is going to be the most annoying part of the MU.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What's all this Rosalina hate? She goes even with ganon with customs on.....All jokes aside I watched ZeRo's rosalina custom breakdown and was a bit disappointed. It was about ten minutes of salt and Zero basically saying luma warp is broken. I watch his videos every niw and again but that's the first time I've seen him tail on a character like that.

On another note Marth's up B custom is pretty ridiculous. I know a lot of people talk up palutena and dk. But custom Marth is legit.

 

[NairWizard]

What's all this Rosalina hate?

I think that you are mistaking my praise for hate. Shutting down other characters is a good trait in a competitive character.

 

[Shaya]

Luma warp is really good. It's basically her version of "burst mobility" that all the good characters can often hit confirm into from anywhere, except it's Luma instead of herself.
To that extent it's not that far gone from Bouncing Fish, Quick Attack, Super Speed, etc (not denying she can't throw out a smash/kill move from it). I think people are getting too caught up with invisibility mind games plus not needing to regularly worry/care about Rosalina following up on you horizontally. People easily forget how many custom specials exist that allow you to one-shot Luma too, we're yet to really see a solid solution to someone like dabuz passively playing/dodging while Luma respawns yet, but it shouldn't be infallible.

For it to be used in neutral though? Not seeing it as that problematic. It's set lengths, the range isn't problematic for most mid-range game play. Luma Warp is longer range than ZSS zair, and that's a lot of range, it can't be used like zss zair though, I'm fine sitting within range of my poke and not being in danger of luma warp.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Luma warp is really good. It's basically her version of "burst mobility" that all the good characters can often hit confirm into from anywhere, except it's Luma instead of herself.
To that extent it's not that far gone from Bouncing Fish, Quick Attack, Super Speed, etc (not denying she can't throw out a smash/kill move from it). I think people are getting too caught up with invisibility mind games plus not needing to regularly worry/care about Rosalina following up from you horizontally. People easily forget how many custom specials exist that allow you to one-shot Luma too, we're yet to really see a solid solution to someone like dabuz passively playing/dodging while Luma respawns yet, but it shouldn't be infallible.

For it to be used in neutral though? Not seeing it as that problematic. It's set lengths, the range isn't problematic for most mid-range game play. Luma Warp is longer range than ZSS zair, and that's a lot of range, it can't be used like zss zair though, I'm fine sitting within range of my poke and not being in danger of luma warp.

Lets not forget thats there is just alot of unexpored aspects to many characters when customs get involved. Im legitimatly thinking big bomb plus relentless missles on samus make aproaching almost as ******** as custom villager.
Seriously it fixes the one problem iv had with her witch is claiming space. And that move basically gives you it.