Character Competitive Impressions

[Hippieslayer]

I'm supposing there aren't any videos available of Trela using Mii Swordfighter? I'd really like to see that **** in action so as to have some basis for analyzing.

 

[Unknownkid]

I'm supposing there aren't any videos available of Trela using Mii Swordfighter? I'd really like to see that **** in action so as to have some basis for analyzing.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-swordfighter-videos.392456/#post-18769791 There you go my brother. Enjoy.

 

[Teshie U]

Maybe have an invisible timer. Have someone offscreen take the time using their phone so that neither competitor knows when the time will end. Then an alarm signals the end of the match, and the player behind just suicide KOs. 64 has no timer right? They get on just fine without one.

64 is a very niche game and the players still playing are in it for the love of the game and the glory. IIRC when M2K enterred a major Smash64 national he was making matches go on for 10+ minutes. There was talk of adding a timer.

Many people will tell you that we need to timer to push the matches towards their end, but thats not entirely true. Some of the top esports leave room for excessive stalling and have no timer in competitive play.

I recently watched a starcraft 2 tournament where a player stalled a game out for nearly 3.5 hours. No, it wasn't a bo7 grand finals set or anything like that. It was the first GAME of a bo3 set. He was DQed for going on facebook during the match. He also lost that match anyway. You can definitely have a competitive game without a timer as long as you have PLENTY of time to spare when this happens. Smash community seems to be unable to accomodate these types of things though.

 

[Terotrous]

l e g a l i z e n o t i m e r

but on the topic of time outs, if we're looking to reduce them(or even potentially eliminate them!) why dont we just use no timer? it literally makes timeouts unusable, and generally promotes aggressive gameplay.

I take it you haven't seen that 2 hour Smash 64 match.

You know how campy and boring matches that go to time often are? Now just imagine they could go on forever!

 

[Smog Frog]

I take it you haven't seen that 2 hour Smash 64 match.

You know how campy and boring matches that go to time often are? Now just imagine they could go on forever!

was it that m2k vs stranded one

 

[StripedNinja]

Pikachu has farther reaching edge guard capabilities, but Ganon's are more effective. Even just throwing out dorf's nair can get the job done considering the very long lasting hit boxes. Uair can be fastfalled from walk off or wizkick cancel covering lots of area. Using wizkick allows you to reach out a huge distance and even throw out an uair before you recover, and if need you can do a rising uair from his second jump while still being able to recover. Bair is a fantastic stage spike and trump option. Dair is a great meteor and kill move with its sourspot. Fair is fantastic for early kos, and having it sh fast fallen is very quick. Just staying on the ledge guves dorf options, he can let go of the ledge and use any aerial while being able to recover, and this is especially useful with uair. Ledge hop allows you to cover high recoveries with his uair as well, or even ff dair past the ledge. Also often overlooked is his utilt, it can be a valuable tool for those who've commited to a low recovery and exhausted their options.

Honestly if distance was the deciding factor Villager would have this easy. The only worthwhile edge guards Pikw really has are Nair, Bair, Thunder, Neutral B, and maybe dair. Bair is a stage spike tool if anything, Nair is pretty good at gimping and stage spiking, Thunder is a good offstage tool for it's massive area it covers although Chu being suspended can back fire, and Neutral B is a good disruptor.

Feel free to enlighten me to the effectiveness of Pika's aerials but as of now I don't see anything too notable.

Why leave out fair, fair can actually kill and is very valuable offstage thanks to the new SDI. Basically the only aerial that isn't that useful is up air, plus he has down B and neutral B. Sure, Ganon has a lot of tools that are great IF they connect, but that's kind of the problemproblem. He really has very limited options in forcing the opponent to do what he wants offstage and can't go in deep and because of that always has to rely on a read or wait for a situation where the opponent only has one direction to go in order to recover. Pikachu has tons of tools to take away the opponents options.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

64 is a very niche game and the players still playing are in it for the love of the game and the glory. IIRC when M2K enterred a major Smash64 national he was making matches go on for 10+ minutes. There was talk of adding a timer.

Many people will tell you that we need to timer to push the matches towards their end, but thats not entirely true. Some of the top esports leave room for excessive stalling and have no timer in competitive play.

I recently watched a starcraft 2 tournament where a player stalled a game out for nearly 3.5 hours. No, it wasn't a bo7 grand finals set or anything like that. It was the first GAME of a bo3 set. He was DQed for going on facebook during the match. He also lost that match anyway. You can definitely have a competitive game without a timer as long as you have PLENTY of time to spare when this happens. Smash community seems to be unable to accomodate these types of things though.

I was advocating invisible timers. Not no timer. Because a timer is important especially in larger games, but not having one off the screen may be less tempting.

It also would help if these tourneys had a more reasonable cap on how many players show up. No 1000 man tourneys.

 

[HeroMystic]

I recently watched a starcraft 2 tournament where a player stalled a game out for nearly 3.5 hours. No, it wasn't a bo7 grand finals set or anything like that. It was the first GAME of a bo3 set. He was DQed for going on facebook during the match. He also lost that match anyway. You can definitely have a competitive game without a timer as long as you have PLENTY of time to spare when this happens. Smash community seems to be unable to accomodate these types of things though.

I'm genuinely interested in how this happened. Unless it became a base race and the guy was a Terran and floated a building and the opponent had no air units, I'm not seeing how it could be stalled for 3.5 hours.

 

[Nobie]

I'm genuinely interested in how this happened. Unless it became a base race and the guy was a Terran and floated a building and the opponent had no air units, I'm not seeing how it could be stalled for 3.5 hours.

In Starcraft 2 there's a unit called the Swarm Host, which is basically a unit that produces other units. When amassed they can wear down the enemy because while the opponent has to spend money to build new units, Swarm Hosts can keep producing new soldiers, albeit weaker and with a limited life span. Because of how advantages in SC2 can snowball out of control, and because if the Swarm Host user loses his Swarm Hosts they're also basically screwed, players, especially passive and defensive players, are unwilling to take risks, leading to stalemates.

 

[wedl!!]

How soon can we expect a tier list?

the game's been out for a whole five months, we really don't need one nor do we have the capacity to make it in our current situation.

 

[HeroMystic]

In Starcraft 2 there's a unit called the Swarm Host, which is basically a unit that produces other units. When amassed they can wear down the enemy because while the opponent has to spend money to build new units, Swarm Hosts can keep producing new soldiers, albeit weaker and with a limited life span. Because of how advantages in SC2 can snowball out of control, and because if the Swarm Host user loses his Swarm Hosts they're also basically screwed, players, especially passive and defensive players, are unwilling to take risks, leading to stalemates.

Are you trying to say the Zerg built a Swarm Host army(which I know of) and the opponent just stayed in their base defending the attacks and nothing happened for hours?

 

[Teshie U]

I'm genuinely interested in how this happened. Unless it became a base race and the guy was a Terran and floated a building and the opponent had no air units, I'm not seeing how it could be stalled for 3.5 hours.

I'm sure you can find the VOD or maybe a youtube video. It was streamed and it made the front page of several gaming sites.

The player stalling was a terran. He turtled pretty hard vs a zerg player and eventually the map ran dry of minerals and the zerg player moved in eventually and wiped him out. Instead of GGing and moving on, he took a MASSIVE force of anti air units and floated several building into an area unreachable by ground units. He then slaughtered anything that flew over to attack his flying fortress.

http://arcadesushi.com/multi-hour-starcraft-ii-match-ends-in-suspension/

Ravens vs Swarm hosts. Infinite free defense turrets vs infinite free units. It was such a stalemate that he wound up getting himself DQed due to his own boredom.

EDIT: better more comprehensive article on what happened
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2015/01/pro-starcraft-player-suspended-after-longest-match-ever/

 

[Fatmanonice]

Anybody believe that any "blow out" matchups have developed yet for this game? For example, Brawl had matchups like Peach vs Metaknight, Ganondorf vs Ice Climbers, DK vs Dedede, Ness vs Marth, and Fox vs Pikachu where it was practically impossible to win if your opponent had the slightest clue on how the match up worked and had to rely on the off chance that your opponent's controller exploded or something to win. Anybody come across anything that just feels like you're totally SOL if you choose the wrong character? I think things are a lot more balanced than Brawl but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this.

 

[Conda]

What I've noticed recently, with customs enabled tournaments happening over the past few weeks, is that the spectator base is getting much more used to different playstyles and match pacing now. Customs really do make slower defensive playstyles more interesting, and there are a few reasons as to why that could be. These playstyles include defensive mind-game playstyles, chess-like playstyles, read-based playstyles, etc. With so many characters and so many valid match paces available, we can't find ourselves only being entertained by the faster characters. Commentators have a responsibility in this too.

This is important, because acceptance and enjoyment of varied paces and playstyles is crucial for Smash streams and videos to get more viewer support and grow, allowing the whole competitive community to grow along with it.

I would love to talk about this more, but I've got to get to work. I talk about it in my recent video so check it out here if you want to hear more:

Back to the discussion haha.

 

[warionumbah2]

Anybody believe that any "blow out" matchups have developed yet for this game? For example, Brawl had matchups like Peach vs Metaknight, Ganondorf vs Ice Climbers, DK vs Dedede, Ness vs Marth, and Fox vs Pikachu where it was practically impossible to win if your opponent had the slightest clue on how the match up worked and had to rely on the off chance that your opponent's controller exploded or something to win. Anybody come across anything that just feels like you're totally SOL if you choose the wrong character? I think things are a lot more balanced than Brawl but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this.

vs
vs



Are the only MU's where you need to pray that your opponents controller breaks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

vs
vs



Are the only MU's where you need to pray that your opponents controller breaks.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that lemons reflect Gordos?

Not sure why Meta Knight beats Little Mac so bad but I hardly use either so I'll take your word for it.

 

[Smog Frog]

everything reflects gordos

 

[warionumbah2]

MK can take full advantage of Macs poor landing options by landing DA which is already safe anyway and one of not the easiest move to follow up on in MKs arsenal. Also MK is light so he isn't as easy combo as say Sheik.

Off stage MK has multiple jumps so he can watch which angle Macs going to recover and edgeguard him. 1 read ends his stock.

The biggest thing about this MU is how much MK invalidates Mac once he gets the lead on any stage that isn't FD. 5 jumps + decent aerial mobility + Dimensional Cape = Cheese buy 1 get 1 free.

And yes lemons reflect Gordos which is hilarious.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that lemons reflect Gordos?

That's not even the worst part. Mega can throw out his whole moveset and completely nullify anything D3 does, even from optimal range of D3's normals, aerial or otherwise.

Smooth Criminal

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that lemons reflect Gordos?

That was by far the dumbest thing they changed in the patch. They didn't in version 1.0, and that at least made Rock play honestly instead of just pressing A to win.

 

[Emblem Lord]

rofl.

**** dedede.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

rofl.

**** dedede.

**** the Hero-King. :v Same with his descendant, too!

In fact, **** every character in this game that isn't D3! Ya'll are a buncha assholes.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

DDD is an embarassment to Penguins. Who the hell heard of a periwinkle penguin? Disgusting.
Im Glad he gets beat by Mega...and Gunner.

 

[Emblem Lord]

**** the Hero-King. :v Same with his descendant, too!

In fact, **** every character in this game that isn't D3! Ya'll are a buncha *******s.

Smooth Criminal

I heard dedede loves lemons.

 

[warionumbah2]

**** every character in this game that isn't D3! Ya'll are a buncha *******s.

Smooth Criminal

Yo we got feelings man....

 

[Antonykun]

DDD is an embarassment to Penguins. Who the hell heard of a periwinkle penguin? Disgusting.
Im Glad he gets beat by Mega...and Gunner.

And Villager :3

 

[Ffamran]

Triple D, sponsored by Guy Fieri.

All right, in all seriousness, what does Triple D gain from customs? I swear if he gains mastery of culinary techniques...

 

[Nabbitnator]

**** the Hero-King. :v Same with his descendant, too!

In fact, **** every character in this game that isn't D3! Ya'll are a buncha *******s.

Smooth Criminal

Peach and the hero king aint got time for that. Btw how is the dedede vs peach match up? I feel like from my end I don't have to work as hard as d3.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Triple D, sponsored by Guy Fieri.

All right, in all seriousness, what does Triple D gain from customs? I swear if he gains mastery of culinary techniques...

Well, he becomes a better master of eating culinary food with one of his custom neutral Bs....

 

[HeavyLobster]

Triple D, sponsored by Guy Fieri.

All right, in all seriousness, what does Triple D gain from customs? I swear if he gains mastery of culinary techniques...

Bouncing Gordo gimmicks and sidegrades.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Triple D, sponsored by Guy Fieri.

All right, in all seriousness, what does Triple D gain from customs? I swear if he gains mastery of culinary techniques...

Bouncing Gordo is hilarious and lingers for ages.

Taste Test is better maybe? IDK how much Inhale is normally used.

Dedede Storm wrecks Luma I think.

Rising Dedede?

And all the Jet Hammer options are still booty.

 

[Teshie U]

I was advocating invisible timers. Not no timer. Because a timer is important especially in larger games, but not having one off the screen may be less tempting.

It also would help if these tourneys had a more reasonable cap on how many players show up. No 1000 man tourneys.

Hiding vital information from players probably isn't the way to go. The timer does eventually force a conflict and timeouts only occur when one player is unreachable or the losing player decides not to approach hard enough, regardless of the consequences.

Nothing wrong with timeouts as a win condition, as long as its a fair win condition. I believe someone compiled data showing that Melee top 16 and Smash 4 top 16 at EVO had a similar average time per match. Smash 4 actually took less time IN GAME than Melee but made up for it with disgusting amounts of coaching during sets.

There isn't anything wrong with accidentally going to time.

 

[Nobie]

Lemons reflect Gordos...eventually.

Basically, an individual Lemon won't knock a Gordo back, but enough of them will, so it's not quite so cut and dry. Granted, this is a way better situation for Mega Man than how it was pre-patch anyway.

The arm cannon hitbox on lemons will always reflect Gordos though.

 

[dean.]

...no, unless your lemons are mega-stale they will always reflect Gordos.

 

[Nobie]

...no, unless your lemons are mega-stale they will always reflect Gordos.

I think it's not that unusual to find a Mega Man whose lemons are mega stale, and I don't mean that as a fruit pun. Mega Man's lemons are pretty much designed to be used to the point where they start to stale out, because they're what keeps Mega Man's other attacks at full power.

Edit: Scratch that last edit, I see the issue. A NAIR lemon will reflect Gordos, but a standing neutral lemon won't.

 

[Blobface]

On Pikachu's edgeguarding vs Ganon's, I'd say Pikachu's is much more reliable since Pikachu has tools to make you do whatever he wants you to do. Ganondorf however, has easily the deadliest edgeguarding in the game. If Ganon so much as coughs on you offstage, you DIE. You're not "gimped", you're DEAD.

On a side note, while it may be overly optimistic, I'm convinced that almost every character in the cast is viable. That's not to say some won't have to work harder than others, but almost any character could at least place in top 8 at a regional, especially with customs. Part of why I think this is I just can't find any character that has a crippling weakness, nor can I think of any character that fills an already-filled niche but does it worse.

 

[Ffamran]

On Pikachu's edgeguarding vs Ganon's, I'd say Pikachu's is much more reliable since Pikachu has tools to make you do whatever he wants you to do. Ganondorf however, has easily the deadliest edgeguarding in the game. If Ganon so much as coughs on you offstage, you DIE. You're not "gimped", you're DEAD.

Well, next time, Pikachu shouldn't bring a Light Ball into Ganondorf's lair.

These are questions I should have asked in their respective boards, but do Fox and Yoshi's Up Smash; and Captain Falcon, Falco, ZSS, Luigi, Mario, and Dr. Mario's Uair have any use when reversed? As in, hit with the back hitbox. I know Ganondorf can pull of nifty things with his Uair from the back and Falco's reversed Up Smash can do... something.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario's reverse U-air can lead to B-air or Reversed Up-B. Best used when following DI to keep up a juggle.

 

[David Viran]

Well, next time, Pikachu shouldn't bring a Light Ball into Ganondorf's lair.

These are questions I should have asked in their respective boards, but do Fox and Yoshi's Up Smash; and Captain Falcon, Falco, ZSS, Luigi, Mario, and Dr. Mario's Uair have any use when reversed? As in, hit with the back hitbox. I know Ganondorf can pull of nifty things with his Uair from the back and Falco's reversed Up Smash can do... something.

When doing a falling uair off of zss's dsmash you can SH where you can hit the back part of uair screwing up DI. Also the back part of uair combos into Bair for a while reliably.

 

[Blobface]

Well, next time, Pikachu shouldn't bring a Light Ball into Ganondorf's lair.

These are questions I should have asked in their respective boards, but do Fox and Yoshi's Up Smash; and Captain Falcon, Falco, ZSS, Luigi, Mario, and Dr. Mario's Uair have any use when reversed? As in, hit with the back hitbox. I know Ganondorf can pull of nifty things with his Uair from the back and Falco's reversed Up Smash can do... something.

This gave me a mental image of Mario with Ganondorf's U-Air.
*shudders*
In any case, I'm fairly confident that all of the moves listed either knock you upwards anyway or knock you at the Sakurai Angle. If any of these characters had Ganon's U-air they'd be so far beyond anything we've ever seen that we'd need to make up an entire new tier, XXX Tier.