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There's a thread on this on this forum. It's ultimately not a very significant technique, not unlike Little Mac's footstool-nair shenanigans.
Captain Falcons tend to lose a lot as well, but they win as well. The Capt. is beginning to make me think he's an all or nothing fighter.
The thing I've noticed about Yoshi's aerials is that while they have significant landing lag, his air speed allows Yoshi to quickly pull away in the opposite direction or to cross up the opponent. Is this ineffective against characters like Sheik?
I mean I played horribly but you can see how fox can run circles around a Yoshi if he doesn't throw out his hitboxes before fox does.
Wanna trade? Yoshi can have Falco's fall speed and Falco can have his air speed.
Funny how Falco is considered to have one of the better ground games in SSB4. Personally, I prefer the air, indeed.
Yes pleaseWanna trade? Yoshi can have Falco's fall speed and Falco can have his air speed.
I'm curious as to why peach is so high.As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?
) but the character has quite a bit going for him and has loads of decent options and lots of ways to surprise people. He also has winning matchup against sheik (IMO) which is HUGE towards his viability. And after playing the matchup more I don't believe matchups like fox or ness are so bad that they gatekeeper him from being a good character. In many situations lucario benefits from high rewards whether it be low% combos at no aura or kills at 40 at high aura, and he can easily leverage that into wins with an optimized playstyle. No lucario players have really done it yet, but we've uncovered the tools. I don't think he's top 10 or anything, but there's no way he's worse than 30 characters in this game.
I've been saying I feel wario is better than yoshi for Awhile. Warios air mobility allows him to play safe with fairs and retreating nairs. I also feel like bite makes rushdown characters think twice about just going in and it eats projectiles. Also I've noticed I struggle to kill with yoshi but landing s waft ftilt upsmash(OOS) and bair are much easier with wario to kill.
Anyways, I still feel that campy Sonic is still stronger. It's such a hassle to try and get to him whenever he resets the situation like he normally does. I feel like aggro Sonic is just opening up the door to get punished hard for overcommitting.
Meta Knight transcends tier lists.
While criticizing "Pikachu for S tier" hype a long time ago I was saying Sonic is really the only character I could see being Diddy/Sheik level good, Pikachu being only next in line.
Shaya
good tier list. I think we simply need more dedicated players who are willing to lab. There's a lot in this game that people aren't utilizing, and we'll see things mature as the metagame develops and people actually start using the right moves in the right situations, rather than improvising everything and 'feeling it out' against lesser played characters. Eventually players will know how to fight each character with their main, but that's not the case now.
Ledge trump -> aerial. Villagers who do this are free as heck. Depends on your character though.Just fought a Villager in For Glory who camped by the ledge and covered all options. Fair when I approach, dip down to the other side of the stage with up B if I jump down, a tree set up by the ledge, constant lloids. Had no idea how to gain momentum. He could've been playing with his feet but my options were covered. Salty
I've faced those kinds. Ike can approach with fair or nair and jab. Utilt becomes ur best killer. Even with Ganon, those matches aren't as dreadful as some would like to believe.Just fought a Villager in For Glory who camped by the ledge and covered all options. Fair when I approach, dip down to the other side of the stage with up B if I jump down, a tree set up by the ledge, constant lloids. Had no idea how to gain momentum. He could've been playing with his feet but my options were covered. Salty
It's a very nice tier list, and the best one I've seen so far. There are obviously a few characters that I disagree with, but the groups as a whole are pretty wonderful.So I was stuck in an airport post apex about 2-days ago and decided to try to bring together a tier list to fulfill some boredom, we got about half to two thirds through it and I just finished it up. This is assuming apex ruleset, which means that the miis are shafted.
S+:
S-:
A+:
A-:
(ordering less important)
B+:
B-:
(ordering not important)
C:
D:
Diddy is domination. Maybe not in results yet, but in terms of the amount of Diddy Kongs at Apex? It was kinda crazy. The best players were going to get high or knock each other out no matter what (as a post I said earlier, things like reaction speed and skill are more important than character selection), this goes to show this character isn't subverting large skill gaps and many characters seem to be competitive towards the top within the S/A tiers. I rate diddy as just that degree better than Sheik, his vastly dominant neutral + reward game skews match ups heavily in his favour, forward air and down tilt out space just about everyone and everything and we all know about down throw and up throw follow ups. We'll see how things go as time goes on, but there seems to be a small push towards ousting the Monkey in some places. I think the community is praying for Mewtwo to come early. Among other things I feel rage favours diddy heavily, especially more than Sheik and many of his compatriots, the safety gained on shield is ludicrous and we all know about his kill power and combo potential. Two stocks emphasises rage-sweeps and hence this also helps Diddy perform (imo; but I'm not going to vehemently debate it). Customs and more stages may also help against current Diddy.
Oh Sheik, how scary art though. You have the most options in the cast and excessive room to grow. Everything about Sheik executed at a top level is amazing and new things are discovered (and shown) at every event. We have frame data already to tell us what this character can do, and weaknesses are really hard to find with her 4 frame back air and various combos/frame traps for bouncing fish and vanish. The only reason we can see this character not being above Diddy is the consistency of the rewards Diddy can accomplish against the current Sheiks when she can only afford to make 1/5th of the mistakes as Diddy. With what is considered a guaranteed "diddy nerf", Sheik may take the cake in the long run, but IMO it will probably be a good meta, there is room to out play current Sheik with a multitude of characters, something I don't really see in Diddy's case. However, not to deny the reality, but Sheik doesn't lose any match up.
Okay I guess my original pre-US day feels have come back to me with Sonic as third, but I feel the characters in this tier are extremely close. Rosalina is a match up dominatrix much like you'd expect some niche characters but without the weaknesses/exploits required to actually have troubling match ups. Luigi is becoming a very common threat, boasting what could be great match ups with both Sheik and Diddy, people call this character stupid and I'll happily admit he is; the grab game, neutral, competent recovery and general mobility allow Luigi to compete with every character no matter what but we're yet to see if the range and aerial mobility weakness will be exploited successfully in the future. ZSS has everything, love you baby~ She doesn't have an infallible game plan though and mistakes in recovery or in getting the kill can be costly and hard to come back from, but that Up-B though! (pray it won't get nerfed). Pikachu may be out of luck with their best player retiring (FOR NOW, kukuku, you'll be back ESAM) but I've yet to see anyone within the high level competitive player base that disagrees with how strong he is, I would probably be considered underrating Pika with this position, but rereadopeningsentence; this character may be in trouble in the long run though, with an already complicated Sheik match up looming and Diddy continuing to develop while Pika seemingly stalls although most can agree the strengths are there for him to be a true Diddy threat.
Ness, Yoshi, Olimar, Fox and Facon; practically all characters I believe are capable of dominating but seem significantly harder to be consistent with across all match ups, likely a noticeable weakness limiting them. Ness being less mobile, Yoshi is janky and suffers against shields and strong camping, Olimar has a lot fairer neutral now than in Brawl primarily because he has a much less dominating grab but could still prove ever more potent, Fox struggles without a strong grab game and light weight features for a melee range character, Falcon can be destroyed but destroys everything back and I hope he continues to show us his moves and remain a viable competitive choice (if you're wondering why: Dash grab is godlike).
Characters in B+ feel much like the upper mid tier (or lower high tiers) of Brawl that were Toon Link, Fox, Lucario and co. They make splashes, but they aren't consistent. In reality it's a mid tier but the group comprising that power level has vastly expanded which is pretty amazing. Reliable secondary usage or main usage with usually great local/regional results, competitive in various match ups against high/top tiers for sure. B- has some controversial choices I'm sure, but I feel like most are either tried and tested (and definitely good but not top/high tier) or are given some current benefit of the doubt (the Links, Jiggs). Greninja is also in a gray area where I'm not entirely sure yet.
C is what I would describe as the extra niche tier. I don't doubt that everyone of these characters are capable of doing well in tournaments in specific match ups. I feel however a lot of their abilities are weakened by strong camping playstyles or in finding the kill which no matter how "hype" the results or matches are that we see them win it, I tend to not rate them as consistently able to achieve this at all. Like I mentioned in B, the power level of this grouping feels much closer to what mid tiers were like in Brawl, which to me is quite crazy how small it really is.
I'm just going to go and say that there is some cop outs here in my mind, characters which I feel are just too underrated/seen by some to really place any higher although I don't really feel they're worthless or unviable. Mii fighters are carrying under the assumption of 1111 and I really don't feel they are able to compete within that environment. I'd otherwise be confident in stating that all these characters deserve to be buffed (the exception being miis/palutena) without there being too much worry of a new overwhelming force. In some ways, I could've done C+ and have had D as C- but I do feel like the distinction is there that didn't feel as pronounced in my S/A/B. If it makes you feel that much better you could consider it as such, I wouldn't be adamant against it.
Anyway among other things, perhaps it's time to look into doing a few "official" steps towards a tier list, if anything the prelude to that would be proper character discussions (like early Brawl) for every character pushed at a hyper pace and then followed by some sort of "THING". I'm all ears for any ideas/insight on the whole prelude chapter, how THINGs go can be variously different.
The bolded part is what I hope makes things interesting. For example, I've basically never seen Link in a tourney (the ones that did were using him as secondaries and I didn't really feel had a complete grasp of him yet), but in the right hands (like Izaw) he can be pretty impressive imo (mainly b/c of Izaw's money match).
He just dipped down and went to the other ledge. He also timed his get up a lot of the time to combat any attempt at getting him. And when I did get him, he'd reset to neutral and more time would pass.
Played as Marth, Dk, Samus, and Fox. Tried different archetypes to see if one gave me an obvious edge, but nope. Tree + fair to stop any approaches + up B to travel to other side + lloid + pocket made him impervious. I took some stocks, won a couple matches, but overall he knew that if I approached I'd get punished, simply put. It felt like some matchups in Brawl, but worse.
Honestly, Haze was playing pretty bad in that set, and this is from the perspective of a mid level player. It's easy to look great versus opponents who either have less experience or aren't trying their best.
You need a character with strong lockdown properties in the air, while having decent range for yourself. Ike has that.He just dipped down and went to the other ledge. He also timed his get up a lot of the time to combat any attempt at getting him. And when I did get him, he'd reset to neutral and more time would pass.
Played as Marth, Dk, Samus, and Fox. Tried different archetypes to see if one gave me an obvious edge, but nope. Tree + fair to stop any approaches + up B to travel to other side + lloid + pocket made him impervious. I took some stocks, won a couple matches, but overall he knew that if I approached I'd get punished, simply put. It felt like some matchups in Brawl, but worse.
I'm curious about actual dependable ways to combat this, not 'go on the ledge and bair' because that's an obvious decision that can easily be reacted to by Villager. I'd like to be able to spread help to other players, but I have to figure it out first.
I understand fully Villager and how he is played competitively at tournaments, but when played in a For Glory campfest-style, I'm not as confident in my knowledge on how to counter it.
Ledge trump gives you frame advantage, and it's not really reactable at all. You can go straight from the stage to the ledge. Roll behind your opponent on the getup. He can't do much against that, and then you can drop down and get the ledge if he regrabs it.He just dipped down and went to the other ledge. He also timed his get up a lot of the time to combat any attempt at getting him. And when I did get him, he'd reset to neutral and more time would pass.
Played as Marth, Dk, Samus, and Fox. Tried different archetypes to see if one gave me an obvious edge, but nope. Tree + fair to stop any approaches + up B to travel to other side + lloid + pocket made him impervious. I took some stocks, won a couple matches, but overall he knew that if I approached I'd get punished, simply put. It felt like some matchups in Brawl, but worse.
I'm curious about actual dependable ways to combat this, not 'go on the ledge and bair' because that's an obvious decision that can easily be reacted to by Villager. I'd like to be able to spread help to other players, but I have to figure it out first.
I understand fully Villager and how he is played competitively at tournaments, but when played in a For Glory campfest-style, I'm not as confident in my knowledge on how to counter it.
That's very possible (I assume Izaw was having a good day at the very least), but I still felt like this was a 50/50 matchup depending on the stage. On a stage like Battlefield, platforms really help Link. Flat stages on the other hand are Falcon's forte as far as I can tell.
I did that a bunch, I knew it'd work. Problem is he knew it was coming and reacted accordingly. It's easy to do so when you only leave your opponent with one option. He either used fair, lloyd, or just left the ledge, dipping down to return later or to go to the other ledge.
Gotta Super Armour that **** maaaannn
I'm actually curious about actual advice to give players. This is an easy playstyle to perform as Villager, so countering it should be easy yet I couldn't find that to be the case.Gotta Super Armour that **** maaaannn