Character Competitive Impressions

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't understand the value of this. If you buffer jump all the time, won't you burn your double jump?

If you're (l)edgeguarding and you will most definitely land before you get hit, that point is moot. This allows some characters to reliably punish multiple ledge options and can make it difficult for opponents to trap your landings, since you can almost guarantee a footstool if they try to punish your landing.

 

[mimgrim]

Are you serious? That's completely ********, what the hell Sakurai.

Yep, completely serious. There is absolutely no reason to never go skinny Mii for any Mii class. Height can be argued but I see short being the most popular.

 

[san.]

Very interesting. That means you can just time a jump press and then respond accordingly with an attack since footstooling takes care of the less laggy options?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Opponents using Ledge Attack and Ledge Climb aren't affected by footstools even during their endlag, but if you time a double-jump to catch Ledge Jump, you'll either footstool it and get a free punish on that, or you'll whiff and go into your double-jump.

Ledge Jumps usually finish at around Frame 12, Ledge Attacks are vulnerable around Frames 22-42, and Ledge Climbs are vulnerable for a couple frames between Frames 30-35 (varies from character to character). This means that if you go for the timing to punish Ledge Climb, you will also punish Ledge Attack, so you simultaneously cover three options at once on reaction while only really having to "aim" for Ledge Climb.

 

[Shaya]

I've used footstool jumps since Brawl as a purposeful choice in many things.
I also knew you can buffer footstools (as in, pressing jump in and around the right time without having a mid air jump) to even 'combo break'. This was something that hurt ZSS in Brawl imo as without guaranteed 50 uairs on Marth, that match up was pretty poor and you genuinely had no recourse for constantly attempting it (it's kinda like when there was the footstool jump button on the dpad in PM), I've even footstool jumped to avoid shuttle loops in tournament.

Seeing more 'smart' scenarios to use footstools is good!

I think this may actually be helpful on Marth/Lucina, as their short hop air dodge is a legitimate approach option as they can use every aerial just before landing, perhaps it'd be rather feasible for them to implement footstool jumping into that "aggressive" option spread.

 

[popsofctown]

This is some combination of too complicated for me to understand and too difficult for me to execute

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is some combination of too complicated for me to understand and too difficult for me to execute

Mash "Jump" when someone starts a ledge option, then react to whatever happens. You're just trying to time it so that you catch Ledge Jumps with a footstool. If they don't Ledge Jump, time an attack to punish Ledge Climb and you'll hit them whether they picked Ledge Attack or Ledge Climb.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Height effects movement speed, endlag, landing lag, character size, and range. Weight effects speed, jump height, weight (thin Mii is Luigi's weight, medium is about Lucario's, fat is Mega Man's), and 's sword size. Size, sword size and range are directly proportional to exactly how tall/fat your Mii is, whereas every other stat is just split into three different values.

[my post here...]
Absolutely not. Default Mii is barely taller than the tallest quantifiable short Mii, which means that has almost the exact same range, but still gets the full speed, endlag and landing lag nerfs ( and get no benefit from height, so it's even worse for them). Not only that, but the medium weight also makes unnecessarily slower, while greatly reducing and 's range.

Ok, so just to understand, this is what I'm gathering in terms of combination using the "true" values.

Height "True" Value | Weight "True" Value | Movement Speed | End-lag / Cooldown | Landing Lag | Character (Hitbox) Size | Range | Attack Speed | Jump Height | Weight (Heaviness) | Sword Size*
Short | Light | Fast | Low | Low | Small | Poor | Fast | High | Light | Small
Short | Normal | Fast | Low | Low | Small | Poor | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg
Short | Heavy | Fast | Low | Low | Small | Poor | Slow | Low | Heavy | Long
Normal | Light | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Fast | High | Light | Small
Normal | Normal | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg
Normal | Heavy | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Slow | Low | Heavy | Long
Tall | Light | Slow | High | High | Large | Great | Fast | High | Light | Small
Tall | Normal | Slow | High | High | Large | Great | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg
Tall | Heavy | Slow | High | High | Large | Great | Slow | Low | Heavy | Long

*apparently sword size doesn't matter anyways in terms of range, so just a visual stat

Now, this is where it gets tricky for me: the "true" values are just the two extremes and the dead center. Are there basically more combinations in between these values that slightly differ?

This is what I'm iffy on myself. Although the differences might be small, as soon as you start changing frame data (such as landing lag, cooldown, etc), you're changing the timing of punishing, reacting, etc. This stuff is very important in high level play, and with so many different "in betweens" that could be created, it seems extremely unreasonable for players fighting Miis to take a quick look at them and know what would combo them, punish them, etc at certain percents or wtvr. I'm not presenting this for the sake of being annoying, but it is a concern that I know many other players will have.

Don't get me wrong here, I've been playing the Gunner myself and have really warmed up to it, personally I see no problem allowing all their alternate moves even in a "non-custom" meta (fairness is a dumb argument), but changing stats around like that... that's a whole other cow to milk.

 

[Asdioh]

Mash "Jump" when someone starts a ledge option, then react to whatever happens. You're just trying to time it so that you catch Ledge Jumps with a footstool. If they don't Ledge Jump, time an attack to punish Ledge Climb and you'll hit them whether they picked Ledge Attack or Ledge Climb.

And what if you play multijump characters?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And what if you play multijump characters?

The important thing is just to time it so that the footstool window is active when they get off the ledge via Ledge Jump; it doesn't really matter how many mid-air jumps you have as long as you're in the right spot at the right moment. Characters with high mid-air jumps require stricter timing, but they can also run off the stage and time a double-jump from a bit below the ledge, too.

 

[popsofctown]

Mash "Jump" when someone starts a ledge option, then react to whatever happens. You're just trying to time it so that you catch Ledge Jumps with a footstool. If they don't Ledge Jump, time an attack to punish Ledge Climb and you'll hit them whether they picked Ledge Attack or Ledge Climb.

So if they don't ledge jump, you start a shorthop, then cancel that shorthop into a doublejump, and the doublejump moves your hurtbox above Ledge Attack, and then you punish Ledge Attack or Ledge Crawl with an aerial?

 

[mimgrim]

Ok, so just to understand, this is what I'm gathering in terms of combination using the "true" values.

Height "True" Value | Weight "True" Value | Movement Speed | End-lag / Cooldown | Landing Lag | Character (Hitbox) Size | Range | Attack Speed | Jump Height | Weight (Heaviness) | Sword Size*
Short | Light | Fast | Low | Low | Small | Poor | Fast | High | Light | Small
Short | Normal | Fast | Low | Low | Small | Poor | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg
Short | Heavy | Fast | Low | Low | Small | Poor | Slow | Low | Heavy | Long
Normal | Light | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Fast | High | Light | Small
Normal | Normal | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg
Normal | Heavy | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg | Slow | Low | Heavy | Long
Tall | Light | Slow | High | High | Large | Great | Fast | High | Light | Small
Tall | Normal | Slow | High | High | Large | Great | Avg | Avg | Avg | Avg
Tall | Heavy | Slow | High | High | Large | Great | Slow | Low | Heavy | Long

*apparently sword size doesn't matter anyways in terms of range, so just a visual stat

Now, this is where it gets tricky for me: the "true" values are just the two extremes and the dead center. Are there basically more combinations in between these values that slightly differ?

This is what I'm iffy on myself. Although the differences might be small, as soon as you start changing frame data (such as landing lag, cooldown, etc), you're changing the timing of punishing, reacting, etc. This stuff is very important in high level play, and with so many different "in betweens" that could be created, it seems extremely unreasonable for players fighting Miis to take a quick look at them and know what would combo them, punish them, etc at certain percents or wtvr. I'm not presenting this for the sake of being annoying, but it is a concern that I know many other players will have.

Don't get me wrong here, I've been playing the Gunner myself and have really warmed up to it, personally I see no problem allowing all their alternate moves even in a "non-custom" meta (fairness is a dumb argument), but changing stats around like that... that's a whole other cow to milk.

Changing around the stats actually affects the player playing as that character more then the player playing against the character. This is because the player playing against the same character but with different stats is still playing against the same character mostly and only has to adjust for punishing and respect but the player playing the same character with different stats is like playing a whole new character because the stat changes affect how you play the character overall. I know, it sounds bat-ass insane but it is true.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So if they don't ledge jump, you start a shorthop, then cancel that shorthop into a doublejump, and the doublejump moves your hurtbox above Ledge Attack, and then you punish Ledge Attack or Ledge Crawl with an aerial?

Yes. If they choose a Ledge Jump, that double-jump command turns into a footstool and you punish with an attack. If they choose anything else, you double-jump and then punish Ledge Attack or Ledge Climb with an attack.

 

[NairWizard]

Yes. If they choose a Ledge Jump, that double-jump command turns into a footstool and you punish with an attack. If they choose anything else, you double-jump and then punish Ledge Attack or Ledge Climb with an attack.

What happens to ledge roll?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

They get on the stage safely and you land on the stage. It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot, with Ledge Roll being a fairly non-threatening option, all things considered. You could shorthop to bait it, then attack where the Ledge Roll is going to be.

 

[popsofctown]

What happens to ledge roll?

He said that one doesn't get footstooled, and he said you cover multiple options, not all of them. I figure if you're not jiggs they don't get punished.

 

[san.]

Now, this is where it gets tricky for me: the "true" values are just the two extremes and the dead center. Are there basically more combinations in between these values that slightly differ?

Yes, scaling is smooth and the values follow a curve as you change height and weight.

Height very slightly affects damage (maybe 1/2 as effective as weight or a little worse).
Attack startup is the same no matter the size or weight, and *probably duration too.
Heavy movement speed impacts air speed noticeably. Short+fat is close to normal+light in terms of movement.

Ok, so just to understand, this is what I'm gathering in terms of combination using the "true" values.

This is what I'm iffy on myself. Although the differences might be small, as soon as you start changing frame data (such as landing lag, cooldown, etc), you're changing the timing of punishing, reacting, etc. This stuff is very important in high level play, and with so many different "in betweens" that could be created, it seems extremely unreasonable for players fighting Miis to take a quick look at them and know what would combo them, punish them, etc at certain percents or wtvr. I'm not presenting this for the sake of being annoying, but it is a concern that I know many other players will have.

Don't get me wrong here, I've been playing the Gunner myself and have really warmed up to it, personally I see no problem allowing all their alternate moves even in a "non-custom" meta (fairness is a dumb argument), but changing stats around like that... that's a whole other cow to milk.

Because weight and gravity don't change all that much, it shouldn't be too different for combo games. A player can adapt to the opponent's mobility the same as any other character's. The biggest difference is lag, the ability to autocancel, and range for punishing. If you can punish a short Mii's lag and a normal Mii's range (not many people are going to go above normal height), you can punish them all. Short Mii's ending lag is comparable to many of the other characters' and the startup is the same, so it's mostly getting used to the animations and hitboxes since the method for punishment is similar. From my experience, specials seem to be the same in terms of startup and cooldown no matter the size or weight.

 

[M@v]

Disagree, you way overrate my character.

Loses to Diddy hard.

Fox, Sonic, Falcon, Pika, Peach, Olimar, Sheik slightly

Even with ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Bowser, Charizard, Marth, Lucario

Slight advantage to solid advantage on everyone else


As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Spoiler

Really wanted to play you at APEX since we play a lot on wifi (Oh well, busy weekend for all of us), but I think Lucina is right next to Marth in terms of how good she is. As a doc player as well, she's definitely waaaay better than him tbqh. Once you figure out how to deal with doc's down b, he loses a lot of what makes him good and unique to mario. He becomes a worse mario in every way at that point essentially outside of upb OoS being a kill move. I think she's right around where you have marth on here; in the middle of the pack of mid tier. More importantly though, I think she has a roughly even MU with Rosa like Marth does. Thoughts? Main difference between them here is she does better when she can hit rosa and luma at the same time, where as marth is better of focusing on just tippering one of them.

Also, why do you think Fox beats Rosa? Every time I try that matchup I get wrecked when I try to do anything other than laser spam...and she can just absorb it. She out ranges every one of my attacks, and fox is mediocre at approaching to begin with. I know she's light which = early kills but yeah

 

[Man Li Gi]

I feel like I agree (would maybe put DeDeDe in there), but what's your reasoning?

I think DK is solid but not have a command grab is a big loos and makes him lack a lot of what makes heavies viable. Charizard

If you had to bet on one of the heavies/fatties being competitively viable enough for multiple players to solo-main them and be able to deal with the A and S tier characters - which would it be?

DeDeDe
Charizard
Bowser
DK
Ganondorf

doesn't either but on-demand armor is a compromise.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I had to sit at argue the clear flaws that DK had in previous pages and now you agree DK is eh in the heavies? Please stahp.

an interesting thing i heard from dk will in a vid was that when he plays heavys. when it comes to ranged camping after like 100% he stops caring about getting hit by them anymore and just focuses on landing his kill move. since he personally belives that moves like lazers and needles wont end his stock a commitment will. witch is why he tend 2 prepare for those attacks over other things.

Yeah he said that with BRAWLY Kong, the much stronger previous iteration of DK.

Many of the people that say DK is good regarding heavies (this game), obviously haven't played DK well in Brawl, because he was in true form for that game. With the overall nerf he got (range, power, damage output, PG grab slowed/less range, the fact if u charge near the edge you can fall off, loses a wind if you cancel, cannot cancel mid wind, increased endlag/landng lag on aerials and up b, lack of stage spike madness, removal of gimmicks from DK in general, weakened shoulder hit on Giant Punch, hitbox on uair is slightly smaller and harder to connect with falling uair, gaps in hitboxes). It isn't to say DK got some buffs (Headbutt hits larger/can break shields, but also buries for a shorter time while taking 50% knockback, Hand Slap has more range and can break shields after 3 hits, but has 14 extra frames of endlag, Bair is larger in hitbox size and has more damage on weak hit, Nair is buffed). I do admit though, my comparison with DK was previously flawed as I didn't take in for account how he plays against the ENTIRE cast instead of just heavies, but even then, his average to below average frame data, his small buffs and plethora of nerfs keep him far below what he should be and what he was. Sure Cyclone Kong is good as a mixup (if customs are allowed), but once it's exploited, it becomes just an average custom.

 

[CaveLemon]

How is Dedede vs. Diddy? Is the fact that Dedede is the hardest character to kill vertically a significant enough factor in the face of down throw -> up air, or does being that large of a target just make it worse?

Because he's so heavy and floaty DDD makes for really easy combo food. Diddy outclasses him.

 

[outfoxd]

Yes. If they choose a Ledge Jump, that double-jump command turns into a footstool and you punish with an attack. If they choose anything else, you double-jump and then punish Ledge Attack or Ledge Climb with an attack.

this makes me want to try this with a Trick Shot chilling just outside rolling distance. Could make for some real ugly edgeguarding and another option DHD needs. Maybe anybody with lingering threats.

 

[dean.]

It's actually heavy armor, and he only has it for a specific section of the rise and a specific section of the descent. Things like Mario's and Yoshi's fair, Luigi's bair, a decent chunk of dairs, etc. will beat it outright.

Really? Can you tell me the specifics? I've been blowing myself up with Bob-ombs at high damage at varying parts of the ascent and not budging an inch.

 

[Conda]

I've used footstool jumps since Brawl as a purposeful choice in many things.
I also knew you can buffer footstools (as in, pressing jump in and around the right time without having a mid air jump) to even 'combo break'. This was something that hurt ZSS in Brawl imo as without guaranteed 50 uairs on Marth, that match up was pretty poor and you genuinely had no recourse for constantly attempting it (it's kinda like when there was the footstool jump button on the dpad in PM), I've even footstool jumped to avoid shuttle loops in tournament.

Seeing more 'smart' scenarios to use footstools is good!

I think this may actually be helpful on Marth/Lucina, as their short hop air dodge is a legitimate approach option as they can use every aerial just before landing, perhaps it'd be rather feasible for them to implement footstool jumping into that "aggressive" option spread.

Wow, didn't know this. Labbing it up, it's amazing.

SH airdodge -> nair lets Marth follow up with almost anything afterward upon landing. When you sh airdodge and use nair afterward, the first hit of the nair comes out and stuns the opponent, and Marth lands with no landing lag and can use anything to follow up.

So far I've found Fsmash and Usmash can be used, but can be clashed with many 3-4 frame moves (nairs) because they're a little slow. This is still awesome though because you usually still get your fsmash out. This is awesome because the reward on fsmash is huge.

If you calculate that you need a faster option, there are LOADS to choose from - utilt, dtilt, and dsmash work beautifully to follow up on hit confirm.

You can also use grab after landing to ensure a follow up as the grab is so quick, and it'll likely clash with nairs. This is probably one of the best followups you can do as it is safe on hit and block. So if your nair hits, your grab will land. If your nair hits a shield, you'll grab them out of shield if they don't first.

Not to mention how useful it is for using moves other than nair. Nair is for ground followups, but fair, uair, and shield breaker work beautifully too. And sh airdodge to side B is super fun.

Loving this, Marth actually feels so much better when using sh airdodges.

 

[Lavani]

Really? Can you tell me the specifics? I've been blowing myself up with Bob-ombs at high damage at varying parts of the ascent and not budging an inch.

Huh, I guess you're right. I apparently have a knack for getting hit at the parts that lack super armor. My apologies!

For the sake of specifics, the super armor lasts from 5-13f on the ascent and 52-59f on the descent, not factoring the startup before the jump starts. So there's a pretty decent chunk starting a bit before the apex of the jump with no armor, and the descent doesn't have armor for long either.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Disagree, you way overrate my character.

Loses to Diddy hard.

Fox, Sonic, Falcon, Pika, Peach, Olimar, Sheik slightly

Even with ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, Shulk, TL, Bowser, Charizard, Marth, Lucario

Slight advantage to solid advantage on everyone else


As a side note, made a tier list today, thoughts?

Spoiler

How bad does she beat Pacman :^)

Also interesting list. Only major surprise at the bottom is Ike for me but otherwise simular to mine.

 

[Conda]

I feel Abadango could have adjusted to Dabuz's Rosalina by using different tools, it felt too much like he was experimenting with different executions of the same gameplan, hoping one would work. When instead he should've shifted playstyles, which maybe he can't currently do too well with PacMan. That's why the future will be interesting.

Due to the matchup variety and intense differences in tools each character has, adaptability and flexibility will be a prime skill for players to develop for Smash 4. You can't rely on the same responses, punishes, approaches, and so forth against each character. The sheer number of characters means you really have to practice your match ups and be able to adapt to any situation. Custom moves will only make this aspect more intense.

 

[Nu~]

I feel Abadango could have adjusted to Dabuz's Rosalina by using different tools, it felt too much like he was experimenting with different executions of the same gameplan, hoping one would work. When instead he should've shifted playstyles, which maybe he can't currently do too well with PacMan. That's why the future will be interesting.

Agreed. Abadango is a very defensive player by nature, but that just wasn't gonna cut it against rosa. And although he is truly an amazing player, I felt like banging my head against the wall when he would do the same thing over and over just to get punished the 3rd or 2nd time.
For all Pac-Mains: when we learn to switch up our gameplans and playstyles according to each matchup, we will truly be a powerful force.

 

[Dabuz]

How bad does she beat Pacman :^)

Also interesting list. Only major surprise at the bottom is Ike for me but otherwise simular to mine.

The MU is bad but not impossible for Pac (35.65 imo), Abadango just didn't play it well when I got used to his pattern. I do suggest pacmen to play super aggro against Rosa though.

 

[Asdioh]

Agreed. Abadango is a very defensive player by nature, but that just wasn't gonna cut it against rosa. And although he is truly an amazing player, I felt like banging my head against the wall when he would do the same thing over and over just to get punished the 3rd or 2nd time.
For all Pac-Mains: when we learn to switch up our gameplans and playstyles according to each matchup, we will truly be a powerful force.

So basically you're saying

Protip: if you keep timing people out (and losing) because your projectile spam isn't working because your opponent has an insanely good anti-projectile move, try something else

Due to the matchup variety and intense differences in tools each character has, adaptability and flexibility will be a prime skill for players to develop for Smash 4. You can't rely on the same responses, punishes, approaches, and so forth against each character. The sheer number of characters means you really have to practice your match ups and be able to adapt to any situation. Custom moves will only make this aspect more intense.

I actually wonder what the worst matchups in the game are. I challenge anybody to try Kirby against a good, campy Yoshi, and tell me how it works out for you. You know how certain stages are banned because circle camping becomes a major issue? That's how it feels fighting against Yoshi on any stage in this matchup.

 

[Dabuz]

I challenge anybody to try Kirby against a good, campy Yoshi Player, and tell me how it works out for you. You know how certain stages are banned because circle camping becomes a major issue? That's how it feels fighting against Yoshi Player on any stage in this matchup.

Fixed c:

 

[Ham371]

I almost never post, and because of this I can't post a link right now, but I just watched a video of Diddy chaining up airs off footstool against Bowser, Charizard, and D.K.

The video is titled: Diddy Uair Too Stronk. Uploader is James Doob. Could someone post this up? Seems like something to look into.

 

[David Viran]

I almost never post, and because of this I can't post a link right now, but I just watched a video of Diddy chaining up airs off footstool against Bowser, Charizard, and D.K.

The video is titled: Diddy Uair Too Stronk. Uploader is James Doob. Could someone post this up? Seems like something to look into.

It only really works on bigger characters and even then its DI able so it's not an instant death.

 

[Ham371]

It only really works on bigger characters and even then its DI able so it's not an instant death.

I figured DI wasn't taken into account, it's just something to keep in mind. I think it also leads to relatively guaranteed followups like fair/bair if the opponent DIs

 

[Asdioh]

Fixed c:

No way! The closest thing is Sonic, but he doesn't have a projectile like Yoshi. Nobody else has anywhere near Yoshi's level of air mobility, or superarmor on their jumps. Kirby can at least corner other characters and read them as they try to escape, but Yoshi is virtually uncatchable if he tries to be.
Like I imagine Yoshi runs circles around Ganondorf at least as badly, but once Ganondorf gets in he hits much harder.

 

[Conda]

What would Yoshi's main drawbacks be that are likely to be responsible for lack of general success so far at tournaments, besides a slow grab? There has to be reason for his lack of representation thats more than just 'hes not popular'.

 

[Asdioh]

His approach is pretty poor actually. The legendary shield-eating/insanely damaging Dair has crazy endlag, where even if he hits you with it, you can punish him, even though his airspeed is so good. He can't really approach with any aerials too well, they're all highly shieldpunishable, except maybe Fair? And his ground approaches aren't that good either. Dash Attack is somewhat punishable now that it's nerfed. His camping game is still really good though, so...

 

[Ffamran]

What would Yoshi's main drawbacks be that are likely to be responsible for lack of general success so far at tournaments, besides a slow grab? There has to be reason for his lack of representation thats more than just 'hes not popular'.

Is Yoshidora? - I don't remember the name - the only well-known Yoshi main? So, there's Ryo, San, Ryuga, and Blitz for Ike, another character who hasn't seen much of the spotlight, and ESAM dropped SSB4 which is a shame since I liked watching his Pikachu. I'm hoping NAKAT would pick up Pikachu at least as a secondary or a pocket. I don't know who mains Yoshi, Shulk, Mr. Game & Watch aside from GimR, and Marth who might not be godppayer, but he seems viable.

 

[Smog Frog]

there isn't really a reason for his lack of reps other than the fact that diddy's a better "easy" character, compunded with what i call the "jigglypuff effect" which is basically where a character is strong, but is overlooked by more interesting characters. both yoshi and puff are relatively simple characters.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Popularity is a large factor though. Pika is awsome butalso under reped. Just gotta face it. these tourny peeps that get results just dun like pika and yoshi Xd

 

[DavemanCozy]

Is Yoshidora? - I don't remember the name - the only well-known Yoshi main? So, there's Ryo, San, Ryuga, and Blitz for Ike, another character who hasn't seen much of the spotlight, and ESAM dropped SSB4 which is a shame since I liked watching his Pikachu. I'm hoping NAKAT would pick up Pikachu at least as a secondary or a pocket. I don't know who mains Yoshi, Shulk, Mr. Game & Watch aside from GimR, and Marth who might not be godppayer, but he seems viable.

Raptor for Yoshi, Puffster and Trela for Shulk. I do know though that Puffster would play his Brawler over Shulk if he wasn't held back by arbitrary rulesets used in most tournaments that limited his character so much.